Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Pedal options

I'm thinking about clipless pedals and was trying to figure out the brands/models. My first thought was Shimano 105 (based mostly on the rep of the brand/model line), but a bunch of reviews I've seen suggest the Speedplay instead, saying they have more float. An experienced friend suggested I save my money and just get the Nasbar branded ones, as they are perfectly serviceable.

I know that when I pedal, I don't have perfect form - my knees tend to go outboard some at the top of the stroke, and back in at the bottom. Would float help keep my knees from loading up (a major concern for me)?

The other factor is weight - I'm almost 300lbs, are there any pedals I should stay away from weight-wise?

Thanks,
Juliean.

I just bought my first pair of Shimano Sp pedals, and I will tell you how they are for a first timer in a few days. As of now I have never used clipless, and have only used either platform, or toe clips. So in a few days, I can tell you from a 100% fresh perspective on how good or bad these pedals are, if you want. Just add me as a friend and I will PM you what I think. This is just in case I can't find this thread again.

"The other factor is weight - I'm almost 300lbs, are there any pedals I should stay away from weight-wise?"

Stay away from clip in or toe clips since you need full range of foot motion to be safe on a bike.

Any platform pedal on this page would serve you well at your current weight.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/pedals.html

I have the rubber block pedals on my bike and they feel just right dampening road vibes under foot while ride!!!

First decide what kind of shoes (road or mountain) then pick the pedals. I have Shimano SPD (mountain & commuting) and SPD-SL (road) and like them both. I've bought several pairs of off-brand pedals from various manufacturers. They are all in a box in the garage. IMHO, stick with the brand names, they really do work better.

After 30 years of using a couple of different models of Looks, I just got a pair of Nashbar Ventoux Mag 2 pedals for the new Cannondale. They had decent reviews and were condiderably less expensive, even compared to Shimano 105, which would have matched the bike's other components. When the bike comes home in a few weeks, I'll have a chance to try them and see if I can tell a difference.

I hate floating pedals, so I only consider fixed, so my advice may or may not be helpful. I have Shimano 105 on my bikes, and I like them, except they make a lot of noise. I tried for weeks to track down the source, and turns out there is a little plastic insert in the middle of the pedal. When that gets worn, the cleats touching it make a horrible popping and cracking sound on each pedal stroke. Supposedly you can replace that piece, but I can't find them anywhere.

I've heard nothing but good things about Speedplay, and now that they have a zero float model, I am seriously considering trying them.

At 300#, stay away from any of the light weight titanium or carbon pedals. Look at the low end of the range. The more expensive ones are lighter, so they use lighter materials. The performance is usually the same throughout the line though.

I'm a big fan of shoes that I can actually walk it. I like Shimano's SPD mountain bike pedal system. I like Shimano's PD-M520 pedals. They're cheap (~$30-35 if you shop around), reliable, easy to clip into, and have adjustable release tension and a shallow release angle (which is great for clipless newbies). I used to think that I needed tons of float to keep my knees happy. Turns out that minimal float is fine... as long as my cleats are properly positioned.

for a first clipless pedal, I would probably recommend going with the SPD or Time style pedals in a walkable shoe as sstorkel says. I've used both, and liked the Time pedal slightly better because it had more float.

I just went to Speedplay because of knee problems. At somepoint in the last 15 years my knees need a bigger range of motion. While I like the speedplay pedals, my research is the opposite of of IAmCosmo - there are a number of potential issues with the pedals that I'll continue to monitor (lubing cleats, greasing pedals, ensuring screws don't drop out of the cleat, etc.). But for now, happiness.

The first question is whether you need road or mountain pedals, and you mostly answer that by figuring out how much you'll be walking from the point when you put the shoes on, until you take them off.

I have had good luck with what I think is a little known pedal: Look Graphite mtb pedals. They are double sided, and the float is in the cleat, and not the pedal. No adjustment or pressure screw on the pedal, and they come with two sets of cleats (15 and 20 degree if I remember correctly). No maintenance other than checking cleat screws, and they use mountain shoes so easy to walk. Down side is that they are not interchangeable with anything.

Once you get clipless, best thing for your knees is to check seat forward or back position. In forward crank position (crank arms parallel to ground), knee should be slightly behind pedal spindle axis. I've heard 0 to .5". Once its set, the cleats keep you in the same spot every time.

Will you need shims? If your knees stick out and your feet land at an angle to your existing pedals, you may need pedal shims so they can keep that angle.

Like others have mentioned, SPDs are a great place to start. Walkable shoes, double-sided is great for a beginner, easy-in/easy-out clipping with adjustable tension, decent float, inexpensive, extremely sturdy since they're designed for mountain biking and all the abuse that entails.

I've been using SPDs quite happily, I think they're a great place to start for a clipless beginner.

Ok, just to clarify a few points - I've always biked with clips - just small toe clips (no strap) on my old hybrid, full clips (with strap) on my "new" road bike. This is for the road bike. I have no problems with clips, just never done the clipless thing...

As to MTB vs Road shoes - not really sure. Yeah, I'd like to be able to walk after/before riding - I guess that means MTB pedals/shoes. Is there a downside to MTB? Probably some weight, but is it significant?

I've tried bike shoes that were presumably road shoes (Shimano All Around Sport Shoe SH-R077) with no cleats installed to use with the clips, and they were very light and comfortable, but I couldn't keep my feet on the pedal even with the strap tightened down - they had so little traction that my foot slid right off the pedal (mostly into the gap between the front of the clip and the strap on one side).

I have a pair of mountain/SPD pedals that weigh less than a lot of road pedals. It depends which particular ones you get. Mine are one-sided, which helps keep the grams away. That isn't why I got them, but I was pleasantly surprised when I found that out.

The main downside to mountain pedals is they're smaller, and the cleat is smaller, so your point of meaningful contact is smaller. People tend to get "hot spots" as a result: areas on the bottoms of their feet, around where it makes contact with the pedal, that can get downright painful. Stiffer shoes can solve this, however. Carbon soled mountain shoes are very comfortable, and the only real downside I can see vs a (very expensive) road system is that you can't put a power meter into them.

I like A-520 pedals a lot:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41boY7PPUHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I use Shimano 105 which are spd-sl. I started with spd as that is what came on my bike when new. I like the 105's much more than the originals. As for weight, I don't think it is an issue as I'm 340 now abd have been using them since I was about 360.

Also I bought them via ebay for less than 1/2 of what they are going retail.

I use Candys. Super simple design, no tension screw to mess with, light and the mtb shoes are comfortable for walking around.

I've used a number of different pedals over the years... had some crummy diadora pedals for a while, then look, then time (didn't care for either one, but this was in the 90s) then I got some speedplay X2s because my knees are shot and aaaaaaahhhhhhh. I just replaced the X2s with some Light Actions speedplays and I think I liked my older ones better, but they're both handy for letting your feet rotate around, if that's what you need.

The downside is the cleats are a PITA to walk in. I go barefoot if I have to walk. And of course, they're *#&$^ expensive.

I use Candys. Super simple design, no tension screw to mess with, light and the mtb shoes are comfortable for walking around.

The reason I switched away from Crank Brothers pedals was the difficulty of release. With the Candy, Eggbeater, etc. you have to twist your heel 15 or 20 degrees before the pedal releases. With Shimano SPD pedals, I believe the release angle is something like 6 or 8 degrees. The release angle, combined with the adjustable release tension, makes SPD pedals perfect for someone who has never used clipless, IMHO.

I went opposite to you. I started off w/ SPDs and switched to Candys b/c of the extra float and the lack of a tension screw. Once the cleat wears a little, it was easy to accidentally unclip by pulling up. You either had to tighten the screw or replace the cleat. If you pull up w/ Candys, they lock in tighter so less accidental unclippings. Accidental unclipping is not usually a big deal unless you're accelerating/sprinting or doing a fixed gear skid, both of which I was doing when accidentally unclipping from SPDs.

For a first try at clip/cleat pedals I would agree with the idea of the SPD/platform pedals like these (http://www.rei.com/product/668198/shimano-m324-spd-pedals). I prefer the SPD-SL (Shiman 105's are what I am using) but I think they take a little more commitment than the plain SPD. You will have a more versatile shoe with the MTB type pedals. The Speedplay/SPD-SL/Look type cleats make walking much more of an adventure.
One more benefit to the SPD/platform combo pedals is it MIGHT allow Nightshade to sleep at night knowing that at least PART of your pedal is not determined to kill you!
:notamused:

One more benefit to the SPD/platform combo pedals is it MIGHT allow Nightshade to sleep at night knowing that at least PART of your pedal is not determined to kill you!


Debating aside.......Over time how many cyclist have been hurt, suffered broken bones or death due to clip in's or toe clips?? Many I can assure you.

As long as a rider is tethered to his bike any fall will generate injury due to the clips if the rider can't get free of the bike to roll away from the bike.

Clip in's or toe clips increase the chance of injury by a factor of 100% in real world riding.

If you race cycles then clip in's & toe clips are required to compete but racing by it's very nature is dangerous. Clip in's & toe clips have no place in street riding. No place at all...........

Once the cleat wears a little, it was easy to accidentally unclip by pulling up.

I can generate 1000w of power during an all-out sprint. I've never managed to pull loose from my SPD pedals when using the standard SH51 cleat. I tighten the tension adjustment screw about once a year.

Accidental release may be more likely with the SH56 "multi-release" cleat. They can be great for beginners who have trouble getting the standard SH51 cleat to release, but I wouldn't recommend them for people who like to pull up with a lot of force...

I have to say that with all due respect I disagree completely with Nightshade on this topic.

I can generate 1000w of power during an all-out sprint. I've never managed to pull loose from my SPD pedals when using the standard SH51 cleat. I tighten the tension adjustment screw about once a year.

Accidental release may be more likely with the SH56 "multi-release" cleat. They can be great for beginners who have trouble getting the standard SH51 cleat to release, but I wouldn't recommend them for people who like to pull up with a lot of force...
I used the multi release cleat because I was commuting with lots of clip in/outs and I liked the float. I also had trouble clearing mud from SPDs and rode 1/2 a cross race w/o being clipped in. You like your pedals and I like mine. Both of us are right and neither of us are the OP so what works for him might be Look Keo or Time ATAC and nothing we suggest.

And yeah, I don't know where Nightshade got his numbers from, but I don't agree w/ his opinion.

I have to say that with all due respect I disagree completely with Nightshade on this topic.



And yeah, I don't know where Nightshade got his numbers from, but I don't agree w/ his opinion.

I am not sure why Nightshade is so anti-clipless and I also disagree completely.

I use double sided SPD pedals on my mountain bike when riding trails and SPD-SL (shimano 105s) when on my road bike. I have had a number of impressive bails while riding fairly technical trails and never had even minor injuries due to the pedals. It is nice to have double sided cleats if you are going to be clipping in and out often as it is a bit quicker.

Ive ridden with platform pedals, went to speedplay froggs, then egg beaters. The Egg Beaters were my preferred pedal for a long time as they work well, easy in easy out as they say. But now I'm back to using platforms ( Forte ) due to their simplicity.

Debating aside.......Over time how many cyclist have been hurt, suffered broken bones or death due to clip in's or toe clips?? Many I can assure you.

As long as a rider is tethered to his bike any fall will generate injury due to the clips if the rider can't get free of the bike to roll away from the bike.

Clip in's or toe clips increase the chance of injury by a factor of 100% in real world riding.

If you race cycles then clip in's & toe clips are required to compete but racing by it's very nature is dangerous. Clip in's & toe clips have no place in street riding. No place at all...........

This is just foolish nonsense.

I use Time Atacs for most of my bikes. I like them a lot - double sided, reliable, and you can still walk in the shoes (they are an mtb-style cleat).

For anything casual (ie, I need to be wearing normal sneakers on the day in question), and on my wife's bikes, I love MKS 3000 pedals - I find the rubber to be very comfortable against sneakers, even at longer distances. An example: http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1018_1958_925&products_id=3944&zenid=ac3d4c0a9d625...

"The other factor is weight - I'm almost 300lbs, are there any pedals I should stay away from weight-wise?"

Stay away from clip in or toe clips since you need full range of foot motion to be safe on a bike.

Any platform pedal on this page would serve you well at your current weight.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/pedals.html

I have the rubber block pedals on my bike and they feel just right dampening road vibes under foot while ride!!!

Oooo, I like the look of those MKS Grip King Lambda platform pedals.......

This is just foolish nonsense.

Maybe so, but it definitely has a good chuckle factor rating! :lol:

I just started using clipless pedals, and on advice from a semi-pro friend went with the Candys. As a newbie I can attest that the 15 deg release doesn't feel bad, and that when you come to a stop and start leaning the wrong way, absolutely you can rip that cleat out of the pedal! :) "Won't release" my ass!

I like them because they cleat in easily, the cheap version with the poly platform are extremely light, the cleats seem to be less obtrusive in walking than Shimano SPD cleats on my shoes, and the minimal platform is just right if I'm wandering around without my cycling shoes for some reason (that's the only reason I don't get the Eggbeaters).

KeS

Debating aside.......Over time how many cyclist have been hurt, suffered broken bones or death due to clip in's or toe clips?? Many I can assure you.

As long as a rider is tethered to his bike any fall will generate injury due to the clips if the rider can't get free of the bike to roll away from the bike.

Clip in's or toe clips increase the chance of injury by a factor of 100% in real world riding.

If you race cycles then clip in's & toe clips are required to compete but racing by it's very nature is dangerous. Clip in's & toe clips have no place in street riding. No place at all...........

I normally make a habit of choosing my words carefully as to not inciting flaming or confrontation on these forums, but really...

The level of my disagreement with this statement is almost as asinine as the statement itself. I've fallen TWICE from clipless pedals in the three years that I've been riding with them (once when I first started, and once when I switched brands) and somehow managed to NOT DIE. Maybe because, as tends to be the case, my clipless falls happened at about .5 mph. Just saying. But if I am hugely misinformed, I would appreciate posting links to some sort of numbers to back up these claims.

Clipless pedals are not always necessary, but if you ride at high RPMs, or ride in a hilly area (I do, both) their is a noticeable, positive difference. If you're lollygagging down the boardwalk at Huntington Beach on your cruiser, you probably don't need them.

One brand that I've not seen mentioned yet, and since you mentioned Speedplay, is the V-one Bebop pedals. I ride them, like them, but honestly don't find them nearly as easy to clip in and out of than my Shimano SPD style M540 pedals.

"The other factor is weight - I'm almost 300lbs, are there any pedals I should stay away from weight-wise?"

Stay away from clip in or toe clips since you need full range of foot motion to be safe on a bike.

Any platform pedal on this page would serve you well at your current weight.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/pedals.html

I have the rubber block pedals on my bike and they feel just right dampening road vibes under foot while ride!!!

This is a joke, right?

Debating aside.......Over time how many cyclist have been hurt, suffered broken bones or death due to clip in's or toe clips?? Many I can assure you.

As long as a rider is tethered to his bike any fall will generate injury due to the clips if the rider can't get free of the bike to roll away from the bike.

Clip in's or toe clips increase the chance of injury by a factor of 100% in real world riding.

If you race cycles then clip in's & toe clips are required to compete but racing by it's very nature is dangerous. Clip in's & toe clips have no place in street riding. No place at all...........

You're just making this up, right? This can't be a serious post.

Show me where a cyclist got killed because of clipless pedals. In fact, show me a broken bone resulting from being clipped in. I know cyclists have been hurt and killed while riding. I don't know of any that were as a result of their pedals.

Also, show me where ANY fall while using clipless pedals will generate an injury. I've seen (and done) the "can't clip out fall" without injury. I'd say, in fact, that injury occurs in very few cases. I'd say that 99.9% of them are when coming to a stop, and moving at under 2pmh. I'd also wager that in injuries at high speed, the impact with the ground would cause a lot more injury than clipless pedals.

Also, it does not say anywhere in the UCI rules that any kind of pedals are required. Racers use clipless pedals because they work. The same reason that most any serious rider will use clipless pedals. They definitely do have their place in "street" riding.

Have you ever tried clipless pedals? Or even clips & straps, for that matter? Do you also swear off seat belts in cars because of the off chance that your car will catch fire and you won't be able to get it undone in time to get out?

For a beginner, consider an SPD pedal with the multi-release cleats. Easy to get in and out of while getting used to the whole thing. Another option is the Speedplay Frog. The float takes a bit of getting used to, but clipping out is about as simple as it can possible be -- there's no spring tension to overcome.

And re: the "clipless pedals are dangerous" bit... if I'd been riding clipless instead of platforms back in November I'm confident that I would have walked away without the broken ankle I got from my foot twisting under me when I fell.

I just started using clipless pedals, and on advice from a semi-pro friend went with the Candys. As a newbie I can attest that the 15 deg release doesn't feel bad, and that when you come to a stop and start leaning the wrong way, absolutely you can rip that cleat out of the pedal! :) "Won't release" my ass!
I tried Candy pedals also. Had such a difficult time clipping in and out that I never rode them any farther than around the block. Everybody's different.

I like these Shimano platforms which have SPD clips on one side only. They allow me to clip in when I'm on the road making time,
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nITSBHk4Bks/Tcp7vNEuuUI/AAAAAAAABmE/WW6GqA8TdBE/s320/IMG_0832.JPG
but I can use the other side when in traffic.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MJfxANMlqUI/Tcp75B8WEbI/AAAAAAAABmI/6pi6QuVasKY/s320/IMG_0834.JPG

Marc

Debating aside.......Over time how many cyclist have been hurt, suffered broken bones or death due to clip in's or toe clips?? Many I can assure you.

Debating aside? Looks like you're trying to start a debate, or else be able to say whatever you want without people responding to your assertions. If you want to talk about the safety of clipless pedals, I'd be happy to discuss in a thread specific to this topic.

I tried Candy pedals also. Had such a difficult time clipping in and out that I never rode them any farther than around the block. Everybody's different.

I use Candys on my mountain bike. I had the same problem. I found that I had to remove some material from the sole of my shoe around where the cleat attaches. I think I ended up taking an Xacto knife and removing about 1/8" on either side. Once I did that, I have never had a problem getting in and out again.

As a newbie I can attest that the 15 deg release doesn't feel bad, and that when you come to a stop and start leaning the wrong way, absolutely you can rip that cleat out of the pedal! :) "Won't release" my ass!

If you pull straight up on the cleat, there's no way that a Crank Brothers pedal will release... unless the cleat or the pedal is damaged. The only way to get Crank Brothers pedals to release is to rotate your heel inward or outward by the required 15 or 20 degrees. If you can rip a cleat away from a clipless pedal, and you're not using a Shimano SH56 cleat with an SPD mountain bike pedal, it's time to replace either your cleats or your pedals or both.

Will give my opinion as both my wife and I just went clipless for the first time. We chose Speedplay Frogs with MTB shoes. We decided we wanted somthing we could walk in and that were easy for first timers. So far so good, so so easy to clip out.....

EB

Debating aside.......Over time how many cyclist have been hurt, suffered broken bones or death due to clip in's or toe clips?? Many I can assure you.

As long as a rider is tethered to his bike any fall will generate injury due to the clips if the rider can't get free of the bike to roll away from the bike.

Clip in's or toe clips increase the chance of injury by a factor of 100% in real world riding.

If you race cycles then clip in's & toe clips are required to compete but racing by it's very nature is dangerous. Clip in's & toe clips have no place in street riding. No place at all...........


Incorrect
http://platinumcycling.com/wp-content/uploads/Steve-weixel-17001-300x199.jpg

I have always used Look Keo knockoffs. Not to hard too learn to use, but you will need to buy a pair of cleat covers to be able to walk without destroying the cleat fast.

It's interesting to note that all here who have disagreed with my position on clips none have offered a rebuttal other than "I disagree".

OK.........

Tell me why you disagree.

Is it because you think among humans you are special and nothing bad could ever happen to you?

Do you ignore , or deny, that accidents do happen that often have the machinery as the cause?

Or....

Do you deny the possibility that you are the one that is incorrect in your denial of factual possibilities?

I will allow that in racing clips have a place to gain maximum edge to win but the risks will always be there in any form of racing.

Clips do not belong on the street in traffic.

It's interesting to note that all here who have disagreed with my position on clips none have offered a rebuttal other than "I disagree".

OK.........

Tell me why you disagree.

Is it because you think among humans you are special and nothing bad could ever happen to you?

Do you ignore , or deny, that accidents do happen that often have the machinery as the cause?

Or....

Do you deny the possibility that you are the one that is incorrect in your denial of factual possibilities?

I will allow that in racing clips have a place to gain maximum edge to win but the risks will always be there in any form of racing.

Clips do not belong on the street in traffic.

In your opinion;

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
WRONG as it may be.

It's interesting to note that all here who have disagreed with my position on clips none have offered a rebuttal other than "I disagree".

OK.........

Tell me why you disagree.

Is it because you think among humans you are special and nothing bad could ever happen to you?

Do you ignore , or deny, that accidents do happen that often have the machinery as the cause?

Or....

Do you deny the possibility that you are the one that is incorrect in your denial of factual possibilities?

I will allow that in racing clips have a place to gain maximum edge to win but the risks will always be there in any form of racing.

Clips do not belong on the street in traffic.

Because you are the one assailing the way that the vast majority of cyclists ride. The only evidence you have is either opinion or made up. No one is taken you seriously because of that.

It's interesting to note that all here who have disagreed with my position on clips none have offered a rebuttal other than "I disagree".

OK.........

Tell me why you disagree.

Is it because you think among humans you are special and nothing bad could ever happen to you?

Do you ignore , or deny, that accidents do happen that often have the machinery as the cause?

Or....

Do you deny the possibility that you are the one that is incorrect in your denial of factual possibilities?

I will allow that in racing clips have a place to gain maximum edge to win but the risks will always be there in any form of racing.

Clips do not belong on the street in traffic.

Your position is that they are dangerous. Can they be dangerous sure. But so is this hobby/sport that we all participate in. However, with proper use the benefits of using clipless pedals are more beneficial for the "dangers" that may ensue.

Again as others have said, where is the data that they are dangerous, cause injuries/death?

It's interesting to note that all here who have disagreed with my position on clips none have offered a rebuttal other than "I disagree".

OK.........

Tell me why you disagree.

Is it because you think among humans you are special and nothing bad could ever happen to you?

Do you ignore , or deny, that accidents do happen that often have the machinery as the cause?

Or....

Do you deny the possibility that you are the one that is incorrect in your denial of factual possibilities?

I will allow that in racing clips have a place to gain maximum edge to win but the risks will always be there in any form of racing.

Clips do not belong on the street in traffic.

Many of us did offer a rebuttal of more than "I disagree". You chose not to respond to those of us who challenged you to back up your claims.

As I said in my previous post - I have never seen any evidence that clipless pedals are dangerous. Show us these "factual possibilities", whatever that means (last time I checked, a possibility and a fact are two different things). By no means am I saying that I know everything. But, from the facts that I've seen, I conclude they are not dangerous. If you can show us facts to back up your claims, then I may change my mind.

In fact, I'll do this. I'll post information from the USDOT stating the most common causes of cycling fatalities:



1. 5.1% The bicyclist exited a driveway in front of an on-coming vehicle.
2. 4.3% The bicyclist turned left in front of a passing vehicle.
3. 3.9% The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist, cause of the accident unclear.
4. 2.7% The bicyclist was struck while traveling on the wrong (left) side of the road.
5. 1.4% The bicyclist, on the wrong side, turned right in front of a vehicle.
6. 1.3% The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist and failed to see him.
7. 1.2% The bicyclist lost control and swerved into the path of the vehicle.
8. .8% The bicyclist made a normal left turn but ignored on-coming traffic.
9. .6% The motorist lost control of the car and struck the bicyclist.
10. .5% The motorist struck a play vehicle (big wheel, bike with training wheels).

Together, these crashes, the ones most likely to result in death, accounted for 21.8% of the total number of bike-motor vehicle collisions in the study.


You'll notice pedals are not mentioned anywhere. More information: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/pedbike/96104/

I am in a cycling club with over 100 riders. In the past 4 years that I've been a part of it, several have been injured. None have been injured as a result of using clipless pedals.

Nobody is forcing you to use any specific pedals, or seat, or helmet, or whatever. You do what you feel comfortable doing.

If you want to be taken seriously, show us facts to back up your claims.

I like to make outrageous claims on the internet and back them up with hard opinion, then challenge others to debate me.
I submit that flat pedals cause global warming by 100%.

It's interesting to note that all here who have disagreed with my position on clips none have offered a rebuttal other than "I disagree".

OK.........

Tell me why you disagree.


You should set up your soapbox in your own topic instead of hijacking this guy's.

Don't bother telling me why you disagree.

KeS