General Cycling Discussion - i hate (arrogant) cops. Rant.

So I was riding my bike back from the community garden, and this cop in an (oh, bloody surprise) SUV pulls me over and demands my name. "WHAT'S YOUR NAME, SON?!" he shouts at me from his huge ass war causer. I'm like, "Why do you want to know," and what ensued was a totally abortion of civility.
He refuses to tell me, then after two minutes, says he can arrest me for a traffic violation. Yeah, then I give my name, thinking that he's stopped me for failing to signal a lane change. But it turns out, this pig thought I was a suspect in a "terroristic threatening" case, and he stopped me because I was a white guy on a bike. (Here in Hawaii, white = bad and suspect). Liar cop. Damn liar cop.
Five more cops show up, then one of them (a little runt of a human) just starts to touch me all over my ass, without even warning me. My bike is flipped over (without my consent or okay) and then two of them push me to the ground because I object to this little oinker in a flack vest groping my ass.
God, I hate cops. They just go along thinking everyone's a criminal, treating you like an object and not a human. They automatically manhandle your bike (in my case, an $1100 Surly), and expect submission without reason.
But the cycling tie in: bloody cops, they should learn that felons don't usually ride thousand dollar loaded tourning bikes, nor do they carry organic collard greens around just for the fun of it. My point is, this car culture doesn't distingush between a custom made Surly and a damn fully sprung Mart bike, and needs to stop profiling us based on our prefered mode of transport.

Unless you are not telling something, you are right. The cops had no right to do what they did, ect..

Right or wrong, when you deal with a police officer you treat him with respect.

Right or wrong, when you deal with a police officer you treat him with respect.

Yea thats right when he says," bend over", bend over boy!

And skweeeeeeeel like a pig!

Damn cops. I call them here where I live and they never come patroll the road where kids play on the side in a 20mph zone and people go 45-50 (flooring it the whole way because it is a short strip). But then they seem to have plenty of time to get a warrant and bust people for measly pot possesion charges when people are using it in their own house and aren't dealers. Skrew em.

"Unless you are not telling something, you are right. The cops had no right to do what they did, ect.."

Actually, they have every legal right to demand your name, for what ever reason, and if you don't give it up, they can arrest you. And they can touch you whenever they want, just because. What's more, you MUST turn your bike over to allow them to check the serial number, even if you've got a rego sticker. Even more troubling, they can call you "son" all they want, and if you call them "Old man" they can haul you in for disrespect to a police officer.

"Unless you are not telling something, you are right. The cops had no right to do what they did, ect.."

Actually, they have every legal right to demand your name, for what ever reason, and if you don't give it up, they can arrest you. And they can touch you whenever they want, just because. What's more, you MUST turn your bike over to allow them to check the serial number, even if you've got a rego sticker. Even more troubling, they can call you "son" all they want, and if you call them "Old man" they can haul you in for disrespect to a police officer.


Just to add something to this for clarification - if you don't provide identification to a police officer upon request, they will detain you until you can be identified - not to be confused with being arrested.

Or so it was explained to me during my five hour stay in a county cop shop. Borrowed car + no wallet (containing ID) + lead foot = detainment for ID verification.


I understand your frustration, but give it some serious thought. The police were looking for a suspect to a crime, and in some fashion you fit their profile. When you were asked for identification, you became belligerent. It's always my first reaction to resist any sort of authority, but no matter what the reason is, the cop's WILL identify you before they let you go - that's their job - asking "why" doesn't change their need to ID you. I'd rather show them that I'm not the guy they're after, and get on my way, and let them get on their way and catch the real guy. As for checking your bike's serial number, they always check license plates - so why should it be any different for us? Equal is equal.

If you ask me, you're lucky they let you go without further questioning at the cop shop!

At the risk of sounding like all those adults and parent-types I always despised, it's for your own good. Would you rather have some guy stab your neighbor in the eye, steal your bike, and then tell the cops to "f*ck off" when they stop him - and then he rides off into the sunset because the cops didn't want to seem like fascists?

So I was riding my bike back from the community garden, and this cop in an (oh, bloody surprise) SUV pulls me over and demands my name. "WHAT'S YOUR NAME, SON?!" he shouts at me from his huge ass war causer. I'm like, "Why do you want to know," and what ensued was a totally abortion of civility

Gee, with a stellar attitude such as yours I wonder why?

1. You will find your attitude toward others often sets the tone for encounters of all kinds.

2. I have rarely seen a thread with so much prejudicial nonsense in it.

3. There are 2 sides to every story.

4. I'm a cop.

Its good to see at least one person in this forum who hasn't been turned into a docile sheep.

Gosh, GBBOOKS, we never would have figured that one out. You're a cop, imagine that.

You shoulda just been cool, said hello, and gave your name.
Not giving your name makes some people think you have a warrant out on you!

What so bad about giving your name anyway?

A USEFUL RIGHT TO BE AWARE OF:

******You don't have to show ID unless detained with regards to
******some crime that the officer knows has happened or thinks
******is happening.

******** OFFICER: "SHOW ME SOME ID!"

******** YOU: "AM I BEING DETAINED?"

******** OFFICER: "YES".

******** YOU: "With regards to what crime?"

******If the officer can't answer this, you are simply being harassed.
If the officer does answer this then you must identify yourself.

A USEFUL RIGHT TO BE AWARE OF:

******You don't have to show ID unless detained with regards to
******some crime that the officer knows has happened or thinks
******is happening.
....



On the other hand, if you have NO REASON to hide your identity, then giving up the ID will save you some amount of time and stress.

I happen to know that a tactic that some cops employ is to ask someone for ID, and if they give it, the cop can run a warrant check on the individual (although they could, as you indicated refuse to give ID under certain circumstances). But if the guy offers his ID, and the cop determines he has a warrant, he can be arrested on the spot. Anyways, I think its a good tactic-- it gets dirtbags who need to be arrested off the street. You'd be surprised at the number of people with arrest warrants for violent crimes walking around major cities.

I wasn't aware that Surly made "Custom" anything?

:p :o :rolleyes: ;)

Something is missing in that story. Five cops show up and shove you to the ground simply because you wouldn't give them your name? Hmmm.

Unless you are not telling something, you are right. The cops had no right to do what they did, ect..

Wrong - the Patriot Act gives the cops rights to do whatever they want. Osama has succeeded in turning USA into a Police State.

Something is missing in that story. Five cops show up and shove you to the ground simply because you wouldn't give them your name? Hmmm.


It's called embellishment. The kicker is he never completed the rant, he was put in the prone position and then what?

Umm, uh, I, ah......then John Ascroft shows up and demands that I sign the Patriot Act and I say NO WAY and then the

1. You will find your attitude toward others often sets the tone for encounters of all kinds.
2. I have rarely seen a thread with so much prejudicial nonsense in it.


2mtr's rant sounds like something a troll would post, point #2 applies in just about every word in his post. I'm utterly disgusted by some of the attitudes in posts here against cops.

Like JBbrooks said there are always 2 sides to a story. However, your attitude toward others often sets the tone for encounters of all kinds also should apply to the Police Officer as well. Majority of our cops have good intentions to serve and protect our cities but I'm sure we all encountered the overzealous , power trip , cocky cops in our time of existence. Racial & economic profiling does exist... And if you think it doesn't then you are sheltered. There is such a thing as reverse-discrimination as well, not saying that this happened in this threads case.




1. You will find your attitude toward others often sets the tone for encounters of all kinds.

2. I have rarely seen a thread with so much prejudicial nonsense in it.

3. There are 2 sides to every story.

4. I'm a cop.

Three words- Change your attitude

Wrong - the Patriot Act gives the cops rights to do whatever they want. Osama has succeeded in turning USA into a Police State.

Hmmm... As a DC metro guy, I take US politics pretty seriously, so of course I read the act. I must have missed the part you are thinking of. Can you clarify?

Thanks!

1. You will find your attitude toward others often sets the tone for encounters of all kinds.

2. I have rarely seen a thread with so much prejudicial nonsense in it.

3. There are 2 sides to every story.

4. I'm a cop.


Amen!

That's a nice reminder that cops aren't "them" - they're "us."

The attitude that you should always obey the cops is probably being offered by someone who has never fit the profile of a possible criminal. I'm just making an assumption here, but are the people who are saying that he should have shown the cops respect white middle age males (i.e. the least likely group to be targeted for profiling)? reguadless of what the patriot act says, cops should not be able to question anyone they want. You should not have to give them your name or ID without a reason provided by the cop. If you do, you are just reinforcing that cops attitude that they can do whatever they want. And the next time that cop uses his tazer on an innocent black man because he wouldn't give the cop his name (because he didn't do anything), you will be partially to blame. In georgia, five people have been killed by cops using tazers in the last two years (one simply because he didn't want to get into the ambulance that his wife had called for him)

But it turns out, this pig thought I was a suspect in a "terroristic threatening" case, and he stopped me because I was a white guy on a bike. (Here in Hawaii, white = bad and suspect). Liar cop. Damn liar cop.
My point is, this car culture doesn't distingush between a custom made Surly and a damn fully sprung Mart bike, and needs to stop profiling us based on our prefered mode of transport.

I have several friends who live in HI and yes, it's true that caucasians are treated like outcasts, however if this "terroristic threatening" suspect was described as being a white male, you can't really hold it against the cop. I thought it rather bold of you to be so arrogant right back at the cop when you were figuring that you got pulled over for simply making a moving violation on your bike.

I do agree with you that the car culture can't distinguish the difference between a nice bike and a cheapy (X)-Mart bike. However I would take that a step further and say that many people can't distinguish one item from another if they have no personal interest in it. Whether it be cars, bikes, clothes, etc. I once made the mistake of calling a man's Mercedes SUV a minivan and he nearly had a fit! Jeez, they LOOK like minivans, okay? But I probably made the same mistake as those cops did: can't distinguish a pricey mode of transport from another.

My commuter bike has some blings on it that people who don't know bikes wouldn't even give it a thought. And just because my mtb is a hardtail, people just assume it's cheap. Little do they realize it probably costs more than a lot of full suspension bikes. But I don't expect people who aren't into bikes to ooh and ahh over my them cuz I know they could care less about them. And I don't let that bother me.

Actually there was a supreme court case within this past year where it was decided that yes, you are required to give your name, detained or not. :(


A USEFUL RIGHT TO BE AWARE OF:

******You don't have to show ID unless detained with regards to
******some crime that the officer knows has happened or thinks
******is happening.

******** OFFICER: "SHOW ME SOME ID!"

******** YOU: "AM I BEING DETAINED?"

******** OFFICER: "YES".

******** YOU: "With regards to what crime?"

******If the officer can't answer this, you are simply being harassed.
If the officer does answer this then you must identify yourself.

The attitude that you should always obey the cops is probably being offered by someone who has never fit the profile of a possible criminal. I'm just making an assumption here, but are

I was pursued by a state trooper and a county sheriff and questioned once (some 20 years ago). They asked me where I was going. Told them I was on the way home from work having just completed the evening shift at the local mill. They asked me for ID which I produced. They glanced at it, thanked me and apologized for the inconvienence as they were looking for somebody who had just attacked a college co-ed nearby.

Should I have put up a stink? Or was the thirty seconds of inconvience worth assisting law enforcement in some small way?

Actually there was a supreme court case within this past year where it was decided that yes, you are required to give your name, detained or not. :(

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57604-2004Jun21.html

I was once confronted by police in a similar fashion as the original post. I was riding my bike and they stopped me because I fit the description of someone who had just attempted a break-in nearby. The cops were sure it was me and one of them was very hostile towards me right off the bat. So, I reacted with a bad attitude, but I still answered their questions. Then they brought a witness to identify me, and she said I was not the one, so they let me go. As for that rule that you should always be respectful towards cops....sorry, but if I don't get respect to begin with, I won't give it. I don't care what they think I did.

As for giving the police your name upon demand, I think it depends on your state. The Supreme Court decision cited by lala upheld a Nevada state law, which is shared by 18 other states. So, I'm not sure if this means any state can demand it now, or only after they put their own law in place. Any legal experts know the answer to this?

Here is a Washington Post article about the decision. It also describes the "Terry Stop" which is applicable in these situations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57604-2004Jun21.html

1. You will find your attitude toward others often sets the tone for encounters of all kinds.

2. I have rarely seen a thread with so much prejudicial nonsense in it.

3. There are 2 sides to every story.

4. I'm a cop.

All true.

JBBOOKS: Question

Are Police Officers reprimanded for behavior related complaints?

What is the complaint process?

Actually there was a supreme court case within this past year where it was decided that yes, you are required to give your name, detained or not. :(

That case and decision only pertains to states in which there is a state law that specifies you must provide such information. In New Jersey, where I live, there is no such law and therefore no legal requiremnet to show ID. They may detain you until your identity can be verified.

Actually there was a supreme court case within this past year where it was decided that yes, you are required to give your name, detained or not. :(
Ouch.
Oh well, I've never done a bad or illegal thing (other than speeding) in my life. The whole Critical Mass thing just got me a little concerned when people were getting arrested for running a red light and civilians were getting harassed just for being on a bike at the time. Luckily we haven't had many problems in my city though.

Also I'd like to say I disagree with the statement that average people can't tell the difference between quality and mart bikes. When I the first of my two front wheels collapsed on me the man who came to my aid said "wow I've never seen anything like this, and that ain't no k-mart bike either." And no in was in no way a cyclist. He actually had many issues with cyclists on the road so he and I had a very good talk about it while he gave me a ride home.

A few folks have mentioned that the cops had no valid reason for stopping/questioning
2mtr.

But it turns out, this pig thought I was a suspect in a "terroristic threatening" case, and he stopped me because I was a white guy on a bike.
I agree that your attitude defines how you will be treated. Now I'm not saying rollover
everytime you are approached by a police officer, but simply stating your name
(as initially requested) would have gone a long way towards avoiding the entire
confrontation.
as a survivor of the 60's all I can say is choose your battles wisely.

Marty

Right or wrong, when you deal with a police officer you treat him with respect.

Respect is one thing, but putting up with nonsense from a guy with a chip on his shoulder and a piece of tin on his shirt is not necessary. None of us know the whole story, just one side, but I tend to think most cops have a severe attitude problem and just love to hassle the regular guy whenever they get a chance.

Even more troubling, they can call you "son" all they want, and if you call them "Old man" they can haul you in for disrespect to a police officer.

I would like to see THAT one hold up in court. Hauled in for "disrespect" HA! As long as you don't threaten them with harm, piss on them!

Its good to see at least one person in this forum who hasn't been turned into a docile sheep.

We need a few more of us though, we are WAY outnumbered I think.

1. You will find your attitude toward others often sets the tone for encounters of all kinds.

2. I have rarely seen a thread with so much prejudicial nonsense in it.

3. There are 2 sides to every story.

4. I'm a cop.

1. I agree
2. Good reason for prejudice I think, cops have attitudes so why shouldn't the regular joe just trying to get along in life?
3.True, we will never know the whole story
4. I am NOT a criminal, just a law abiding citizen tired of the man always watching and treating me like a suspect.

4. I am NOT a criminal, just a law abiding citizen tired of the man always watching and treating me like a suspect.

Well, bear in mind that to a cop, we are all potential criminals, and they just don't know the crime yet. The very nature of being a policeman puts one in the mindset that they should suspect everyone, unless otherwise proven.

Now that said, I have been pulled over twice on bikes by cops. Once while quite flagrantly running stop signs early in the morning and with no one else about; lights and a quick blast of the siren pulled me over. I was codial about everything; the cop said the first sign didn't bother him, the second sign took him by surprise, but the third sign, and he just had to pull me over.

Since this was all quite conversational, and I was fully loaded for touring (shakedown ride just before a big tour), we got into a conversation and it ended with nothing more than a warning.

Second time pulled over was on an AZ highway... cop comes out loaded with attitude... big hat, the belly, the whole affair. "Son, where you from." Followed by "you ever got a ticket in Arizona? Well you about to get one."

OK now I figure there isn't a whole lot I can do or say... may as well just get on with it and again be cordial. Well he noticed I was fully loaded for touring... and started asking some more simple questions... "how long you on the road," "how fast you going," "where you headed... " and the like. Now I don't see as I am hiding from anyone, so I just try to answer as best I can and a bit of conversation again ensues. He discovers I am 2 days out of CA and headed east... After a bit more talk and a warning, he tells me I should use the frontage road and where I can get on it. Then he follows me a couple miles (at the breakneck speed of a loaded touring bike) and as he drives off he states through the loudspeaker "17MPH, have a good day."

It all comes down to attitude... the cop will tend to put on a bad attitude, as frankly they don't know who or what you are... so best to deal with you from a position of power first. You however, have the "power" to turn that around and either confront back (generally bad) or be cordial. (much like grinning and waving to the Aholes that just honked at you... ) best to control your aggressiveness and bear in mind that the cop has both backup and guns... you have nothing but charm and a bike. :D

If a cop wants to know your name, he will get it. Your refusal is not going to make him go away. Like it or not, you can either give him your name or you can waste your time waiting for the cops to figure it out on their own. It's your time, and the cops get paid the same one way or the other. In addition, refusal to disclose your name and address, when a cop has a valid reason to ask (even if he does not disclose the reason up front) may be a crime in your state.

1. Respect is earned
2. To get respected, you have to give respect

The only time you see me dis'n the cops is at the annual Houston 911 games. Fire Dept vs. Police Dept hockey game.... My dad and brother are fireman nothing like see three cops in the penalty box at one time.... couldn't resist yelling "three little pigs"

Who ever came up with the "pig" name for the cops?

. . . It all comes down to attitude... the cop will tend to put on a bad attitude, as frankly they don't know who or what you are... so best to deal with you from a position of power first. You however, have the "power" to turn that around and either confront back (generally bad) or be cordial. (much like grinning and waving to the Aholes that just honked at you... ) best to control your aggressiveness and bear in mind that the cop has both backup and guns... you have nothing but charm and a bike. :D
Good attitude. I've never been pulled over on my bike, but I have been pulled over twice in a car--once deserved, once not. Both times I was polite and respectful. Both times I drove away with a warning. Yeah, I had to kiss up once for no fair reason, but I figure the two incidents balance each other out.

Well, bear in mind that to a cop, we are all potential criminals, and they just don't know the crime yet. The very nature of being a policeman puts one in the mindset that they should suspect everyone, unless otherwise proven

I guess innocent till proven guilty has gone by the way side, because I feel we shouldn't be treated like a criminal just because we "might be.
One example is pay before you pump gas...you are assuming I am going to steal gas without even knowing anything about me. That is a whole other discussion and somewhat off topic, but I had to say it.

Well, bear in mind that to a cop, we are all potential criminals, and they just don't know the crime yet. The very nature of being a policeman puts one in the mindset that they should suspect everyone, unless otherwise proven

I guess innocent till proven guilty has gone by the way side, because I feel we shouldn't be treated like a criminal just because we "might be.
One example is pay before you pump gas...you are assuming I am going to steal gas without even knowing anything about me. That is a whole other discussion and somewhat off topic, but I had to say it.


Pay before you pump - seems perfectly logical to me...why should they let you fill up your car with gas before you've given them any money? If you fill up your cart with groceries, and then can't pay, they can put the groceries back. Once that gas is in your car, that's it. They're just protecting themselves. It's a business, not a democracy.

"Innocent until proven guilty" has nothing to do with a cop questioning you on the street. It applies to the judicial system - before a judgment is made in court, it is guilt that must be established, not innocence. Just be polite and helpful, so the cops can do their job and bust the badguys, and you can both get on with your lives. You aren't being thrown into a jailcell with no key, you're being asked some questions. That's how cops find suspects. They ask questions.

OK whatever you say.

Well, bear in mind that to a cop, we are all potential criminals, and they just don't know the crime yet. The very nature of being a policeman puts one in the mindset that they should suspect everyone, unless otherwise proven

I guess innocent till proven guilty has gone by the way side, because I feel we shouldn't be treated like a criminal just because we "might be.
One example is pay before you pump gas...you are assuming I am going to steal gas without even knowing anything about me. That is a whole other discussion and somewhat off topic, but I had to say it.

Whoa... this is where we as citizens need to reflect on the job assignments we give to our public servents.

Innocence and Guilt are NOT determined by the cop on the beat. ("tell it to the judge") They are only there as an extension of the court and their task is to enforce the laws... hence Innocent people as well as Guilty may be brought to a court by the cops. It is the duty of the Jury to determine Innocence or Guilt.

Because of the enforcement aspect of the police job, they just assume all parties are guilty first. Hence the attitude that they come out with. Remember most of the folks they are dealing with ARE of the criminal element. Think about the attitude "shield" you would develop if in fact your day consisted of dealing with the negative elements of the world.

You could in fact be the only bright point in a cop's day... a simple innocent biker... but if you come off as the same kind of Ahole that they generally deal with, then frankly you are going to get the full criminal treatment.

And no I am not a cop, and no I don't have any best friends as cops... this is just the reality of the situation... learn to deal with it and you might just find more warnings and less hassle and tickets in your rare dealings with cops.

Rememember to a cop, everyone they meet is a potential criminal, just like to a biker every car on the road is potential death.

My thoughts expressed much more clearly and eloquently than I was capable. Kudos genec.

Whoa... this is where we as citizens need to reflect on the job assignments we give to our public servents.

Innocence and Guilt are NOT determined by the cop on the beat. ("tell it to the judge") They are only there as an extension of the court and their task is to enforce the laws... hence Innocent people as well as Guilty may be brought to a court by the cops. It is the duty of the Jury to determine Innocence or Guilt.

Because of the enforcement aspect of the police job, they just assume all parties are guilty first. Hence the attitude that they come out with. Remember most of the folks they are dealing with ARE of the criminal element. Think about the attitude "shield" you would develop if in fact your day consisted of dealing with the negative elements of the world.

You could in fact be the only bright point in a cop's day... a simple innocent biker... but if you come off as the same kind of Ahole that they generally deal with, then frankly you are going to get the full criminal treatment.

And no I am not a cop, and no I don't have any best friends as cops... this is just the reality of the situation... learn to deal with it and you might just find more warnings and less hassle and tickets in your rare dealings with cops.

Rememember to a cop, everyone they meet is a potential criminal, just like to a biker every car on the road is potential death.

I second that, well put!

What are you trying to accomplish?

Awhile back a person who I assumed to be a high school wrestler complained about a referee who required him to remove a Livestrong bracelet even though he had taped it onto his wrist. My advice was that if his goal was to win wrestling matches to comply with the referees request. If his goal was to assert his right to wear a Livestrong bracelet, OK but he'll probably have fewer opportunities to win wrestling matches.

This is really the same issue just clothed in a different form. If your goal is to get to wherever you are going, I think that you are best served by providing your identity when asked. If your goal is to assert your rights of citizenship, I'm all for that but it'll likely take longer to get to wherever you were headed. Life becomes a lot easier once you figure out what your goals are.

Oh, and if you ever decide for any reason to wave at a policeman during your daily travels, it's best to spread your hand out so that they can see all five fingers.

just about every cop I know can go screw himself with a sharpened baseball bat. I can rarely say I've ever had a "good" run in with law enforcement. Just the other night I was down on campus, a cop slammed on his brakes, hopped out of his car, and started questioning this kid b/c he had a glass bottle that he was drinking out of. He wasn't stumbling or anything, just strolling along and this cop got all up in his face b/c he was just anxious to make a ****ing arrest or some ****...ugh I hate ****ing cops. Why don't they do something better with their time then try and people committing petty little stuff that in all reality matters none. Police are a revenue system. bottom line. effin' pigs.