Classic & Vintage - Super Course is nearly ready, what should I expect?

I bought a 73 Super Course at a flea market a few years ago and it somehow slipped to the back of my project queue. I've finally gotten around to setting it up and I'm only waiting for the shellac on the handlebar tape to dry (and the rain to stop) before I can take it for its maiden voyage tomorrow.

I didn't really get a chance to ride the bike when I bought it since it was missing one of the crank spider bolts and the rear hub was gummed up solid.

In the years that I've had it, I've read the "show your Super Course" thread several times and seen countless people extolling the virtues of these bikes, so I'm excited to experience it for myself.

So, will it be a magical ride that belies the bike's humble position in the Product line? Will the ride help me to achieve total enlightenment? Or will it be "just ok?"

Having owned and ridden several, I've always liked the ride. The sport-touring geometry is similar to the International, I believe, though the frame is heavier and stouter. It has a nice combo of liveliness and comfort.

Neal

Ok, back from a 10 mile shakedown ride and my initial impression is that it's a pretty nice ride and might be a keeper. I didn't get the clouds parting and choir of angels experience, but it actually did exceed my expectations. I didn't know it would be as lively as this and I'm really digging the Schwalbe HS159 tires that I fitted. The only down side is the braking - I've ridden Weinmanns before, but I don't recall them requiring so much hand strength. It feels a bit risky riding the hoods because of that.

I still need to find a front derailleur and a set of bolts for the inner ring, and I'll restring the rear wheel with stainless spokes (odd that the front had them and the rear was UCP.) Here are some photos, as found:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ynuJQ9O-9so/ThHVc1G2eZI/AAAAAAAABxY/f2yTQI9_X2M/s800/super_01.jpg

Today, with some Gran Sport parts swapped in:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bqKtyFwjgP0/ThHVjI_2OSI/AAAAAAAABxk/LvVUVcNS6FA/s800/super_02.jpg

Very nice.

WOW, that is really nice, and the ride will be fantastic........

Salmon KoolStop brake pads will help immensely. Try new cables and housings, as well, and if you want to keep the bike and don't mind being a little inauthentic, switch to aero brake levers for 10% more braking force. The relatively long reach of the brake calipers (750 in back, 610 in front) doesn't help, either, and that will get even worse if you ever change to 700C rims.

The ride should be comparable to that of my 1959 Capo, which also has a straight gauge 531 main triangle, although a longer wheelbase and thinner stays.

Your Super Course looks great, w/ the chrome forks and stays and w/o the pie plate.

Beautiful job, Chris - and the colors are purrrrfect!

Getting that front DR will enhance your riding experience - I am certain that alone will be sufficient to have that choir of angels pipe in - (unless of course you have been a very bad boy ;)).

Personally, I think the Super Course sets the standard for all other sport tourers - It's a real Goldy Locks bike - after riding one a while all others seem too hard or too soft, but the SC is just right. I think in time you will agree.

Again - a very fine looking build. :thumb:

Thanks for the compliments! It did occur to me that the braking issue might be due in part to reusing the ancient housings. I'll probably swap them out today with lined housings and see how much it improves, but I hope it's insignificant - these are the originals and they look pretty good.

The brake pads are fresh (though cheap) replacements, and they work well enough once they get to the rims, it just takes a mighty squeeze to get them there :) It does stop easily from down in the drops.

I was tempted to keep the Sturmey Archer pie plate on, but this one is just too huge!

You could inject some grease into the cable housings, you would need to remove the cables to do this. That way you could keep the original ribbed housings.

Try Mafac brakes. They work better on my Super Course than the Weinmanns did.

How would you describe those tires? I know Schwalbe makes some excellent tires, but I don't know much about them. I put Paselas on my Super Course and fell in love. My Super Course far exceeded my expectations for all the reasons other folks stated above. I'm not using it now and haven't decided what to do with it. I might give it to my wife or turn it into a fixie.

Good suggestions, and I might even be loopy enough to attempt to feed some new liners into the old housings. We'll see...

Tom, the tires are at the low end of Schwalbe's line, and the tread looks like it was designed in the 50's. On the other hand, the tread looks like it was designed in the 50's. :) I thought these might be a good alternative to the Michelin World Tour for those wanting a vintage-looking tread in 27", and I think they fit that need apart from the silk screened logo.

They are heavier than Paselas, and the sidewalls are stiffer, but they do honestly feel like they roll with a bit less resistance. I like Paselas a lot, but they always seem slightly sluggish to me. The Schwalbes on the Super Course are only aired up to 70psi due to the non-hooked rims. They went on to the rims easily, no levers needed for installation.

I'll do some more riding on these and the Paselas on my Trek in the next few days to see if that impression holds up.

It might be interesting to try it with another pair of wheels and tires. I never rode my Super Course with original equipment. That may be why it exceeded my expectations by so much.

The Paselas do make a big difference - I've ridden a LOT of different (clincher) tires and they are my hands down favorites. On the SC, my preference is the 1-1/8" version - they roll a little faster than the larger size, but still have enough cush with this bike.

Super Course is nearly ready, what should I expect?

in Miami?

probably a bike thief, but I hope not.
nice bike, enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Nice work. What BB spindle did you go with for the conversion or did you do the entire BB, cups and all?

Super Cool! :thumb:

Two quick questions. :)

Is that a kickstand on a just a prop stand for the picture?

What did you do with the cannondale water bottle and velcro waterbottle cage??

Super Course is nearly ready, what should I expect?

in Miami?

probably a bike thief, but I hope not.
nice bike, enjoy the fruits of your labor.

True, but it won't be left unattended. I'm actually a few miles north of Miami now where it's statistically 3% safer, I just chose this name for the street cred ;)


Nice work. What BB spindle did you go with for the conversion or did you do the entire BB, cups and all?

Yes, the BB is a Gran Sport also, the group came from a Competition GS that I bought a while ago, which is now jstewse's "beater."


Super Cool! :thumb:

Two quick questions. :)

Is that a kickstand on a just a prop stand for the picture?

What did you do with the cannondale water bottle and velcro waterbottle cage??

The prop stand is the lower two segments of a small Gitzo tripod, which I use because it collapses small enough to fit in my camera bag. It's a terrible solution really, since I always forget to bring a chock for the wheel (hence the stick,) and it's pretty sketchy if there's any breeze at all. I need to find a better stand that doesn't leave one wheel in the air. Either that, or ride more and take glamor shots less...

The bottle is possibly destined for ebay, and I'm hoping it's worth what I paid for the bike (ok, I got it cheap :))

I forgot to post the photo of the tires earlier, I think they're an interesting option for under $20 in 27x1-1/4" size. They come with white walls too.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dB5jpx5gHgg/TgUEmdYLFNI/AAAAAAAABr4/vBqkHkeGtc4/s800/hs159.jpg

..

I forgot to post the photo of the tires earlier, I think they're an interesting option for under $20 in 27x1-1/4" size. They come with white walls too.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dB5jpx5gHgg/TgUEmdYLFNI/AAAAAAAABr4/vBqkHkeGtc4/s800/hs159.jpg

^ Oh.
DO the Paselas. You WON'T be sorry.

Wow, very nice!

Those look like thick sidewalls. I don't mean any disrespect to your choice or the Schwalbe company, but "DO the Paselas. You WON'T be sorry."

Hi, I sent you a PM..;)

Again, another reason to get up early in the morning and search for "one" more bike! Superb transformation in the hands of an artist! :-)

Flash

Shoot, this thread was a month ago?

I finally put together my 1971(?) Super Course over the weekend and took it for a short ride and I couldn't believe how smooth yet lively it was.

The 27x1 Paselas TGs Nashbar had for cheap worked a lot better than I was expecting. They were only at 80psi as I wasn't sure what these hook-less rims could handle, but I don't really have any reason to change the pressure if this ride keeps up.

Mine isn't a terribly photogenic specimen, but I'll grab a photo of it tomorrow.

Having owned and ridden several, I've always liked the ride. The sport-touring geometry is similar to the International, I believe, though the frame is heavier and stouter. It has a nice combo of liveliness and comfort.

Neal
I've never ridden either an International or a SC, but I love the ride of my Gran Sport, and would describe it in much the same way. I wonder how much difference there is in ride quality among the three. Anyone with experience across the models, feel free to comment. And, lest I've gone too far OT, Chris, your bike is beautiful.

I was pleasantly surprised by how good my super course was the first time I rode it. I don't ride it as much as I should, though.

I've never ridden either an International or a SC, but I love the ride of my Gran Sport, and would describe it in much the same way. I wonder how much difference there is in ride quality among the three. Anyone with experience across the models, feel free to comment. And, lest I've gone too far OT, Chris, your bike is beautiful.

I have a butted '531 '73 Grand Sports and a couple straight '531 tubed '73 SC's with the same frame size and tires. The rides are VERY similar - The biggest perceptible difference is the Rando bars on the GS which I find to be more comfortable. I have not ridden an Int'l.

I'd say that you'll find it somewhere between awesome and mediocre, depending on what you've been riding.

My International, Grand Sports, and Super Course bikes are all set up very differently with different wheels/tires, so it's hard to make a straight comparison. I like the ride of all three, but the Int'l is my favorite, maybe because it cost more!

Neal

My International, Grand Sports, and Super Course bikes are all set up very differently with different wheels/tires, so it's hard to make a straight comparison. I like the ride of all three, but the Int'l is my favorite, maybe because it cost more!

You can buy my Super Course for $10k and put that to a test.

For what it's worth, Neal has measured, and I believe he said FOUR models have nearly identical geometries.

Super Course
Gran Sport
Competition
International

The Super Course has straight gauge three main tubes and carbon steel stays and forks. The other three have butted 531 main tubes and 531 stays and forks. (Stays and forks are never butted, though the wording on the decal will mislead you into thinking they are.)

I love my Super Course. Maybe it's because I've gotten it to fit me well and I like the tires on it. I can't wait to build my International and ride it.

I'm not sure if that's true, Tom, but I can measure up three of those for comparison sake. I don't have a Competition though the early 70s models had pretty relaxed geometry.

Neal

Come to think of it, you compared a Super Course, a Gran Sport, and an International, and you said they're close. And I assume you measured the same size of each model.

An update on my Super Course:
I gave up on finding the correct bolts to attach the small ring to the Gran Sport cranks, and I'm not sure the rear mech would have handled this freewheel anyway. I picked up a set of Raleigh-branded Suntour components and installed them a few weeks ago, and I went out for a quick shakedown yesterday, but ended up doing a 20 mile ride (with stops for photos of course.) The Suntour stuff works great and I like the ride, but I'm not convinced it will stay in the collection in the long term, it may be a couple cm smaller than ideal.

I'm still hating the brakes, so I'm going to replace the vintage cable housings with lined housings. I'd also like to find a different set of levers, but I don't think anything will look as nice as the cream Carlton hoods. I'm inclined to put this frame up on the "frame doesn't fit pass-around game" thread in hopes of getting a larger version, but I want to put a few hundred miles on it first.

Thanks to elguicho and David325 for the components that it's wearing now. It certainly looks beautiful in the sun!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HygCMVbh5WQ/T1QuJQJxsVI/AAAAAAAACak/rGh1Rpq4vBU/s800/sc_01.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Zf7cWCfoeYw/T1QuKox4mDI/AAAAAAAACas/NkSUEoG9XOs/s800/sc_03.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PQoewnV9uGQ/T1QuId-1hHI/AAAAAAAACac/614uuYBxGyU/s800/sc_04.jpg

I just happened to notice this sign as I was riding, and had to go back for a photo. There was also a "Carlton Place" street sign, but I checked and it was firmly anchored in the ground :)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MFf6C4MKu3c/T1QuMhboTWI/AAAAAAAACa0/mR5sv8npYIs/s800/sc_05.jpg

I'm still hating the brakes, so I'm going to replace the vintage cable housings with lined housings. I'd also like to find a different set of levers, but I don't think anything will look as nice as the cream Carlton hoods.

I have found that the old Weinman pink rubber brake pads work great if you sand off the first mm of time-hardened rubber. They work better for me than newer cheapo black replacements. I have them and the original levers and calipers on my 72 Super Course, (with new modern cables and housings), and have never had an issue with stopping power.

I love my Super Course. Maybe it's because I've gotten it to fit me well and I like the tires on it. I can't wait to build my International and ride it.

Since Chris in Miami updated this thread on his Super Course, I have to ask Tom (noglider) if he built his International and how it compares to his SC. This question is being asked because I have a chance to purchase an International that is the perfect size. I like my SC but don't need to spend the $$$ for a duplicate.

Very nice, I'm glad the Brooks worked out for you.

I've had 2--one British made, the other Japanese. Both nice sports touring rides.

And yes, get the Paselas.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PQoewnV9uGQ/T1QuId-1hHI/AAAAAAAACac/614uuYBxGyU/s800/sc_04.jpg

Nice looking SC Chris!

Insofar as the brakes are concerned, repplacing the levers will not do anything to enhance performance so you may as well keep those sweet looking Carltons.
While I find that braking performance with Weinmann CPs is not quite as good as some (eg Mavics), the right pads can often bring them well into the range of acceptability.
I would definitely replace those ancient housings with modern lined ones before making ANY judgements though.

Agree on the brakes but I would leave them alone. I try not to make vintage stuff ride like a new bike with brifters and dual pivots. The most I would do is experiment with pads. Your re-build shows an understanding of "the medium". The Schwalbe tread has a nice vintage look but 1-1/8" Paselas will astound you with the sophistication of their ride.

Your pictures convince me that I HAVE to put that old Super Course frame I have back in service.

I have found that the old Weinman pink rubber brake pads work great if you sand off the first mm of time-hardened rubber. They work better for me than newer cheapo black replacements. I have them and the original levers and calipers on my 72 Super Course, (with new modern cables and housings), and have never had an issue with stopping power.

I did give the pads the old belt sander treatment, it just seems like this bike requires more than average force to even bring the pads into contact with the rims. Maybe I just need these:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-14KxnuB9BDY/T1WA08VjuGI/AAAAAAAACbA/ri1IffxVxWI/s800/tigergrip.jpg


Since Chris in Miami updated this thread on his Super Course, I have to ask Tom (noglider) if he built his International and how it compares to his SC. This question is being asked because I have a chance to purchase an International that is the perfect size. I like my SC but don't need to spend the $$$ for a duplicate.

I'm a sucker for chrome, I'd probably get the International anyway. Especially if it has Capella lugs.


Very nice, I'm glad the Brooks worked out for you.

:thumb:

Agree on the brakes but I would leave them alone. I try not to make vintage stuff ride like a new bike with brifters and dual pivots. The most I would do is experiment with pads. Your re-build shows an understanding of "the medium". The Schwalbe tread has a nice vintage look but 1-1/8" Paselas will astound you with the sophistication of their ride.

Your pictures convince me that I HAVE to put that old Super Course frame I have back in service.


I've had 2--one British made, the other Japanese. Both nice sports touring rides.

And yes, get the Paselas.

Thanks for the comments! I do have Paselas on another bike, and I've owned several sets of them. I may not be a very discriminating rider though, because I don't find them to ride significantly better. I will say that these Schwalbes are slightly harsh in comparison.




Nice looking SC Chris!

Insofar as the brakes are concerned, repplacing the levers will not do anything to enhance performance so you may as well keep those sweet looking Carltons.
While I find that braking performance with Weinmann CPs is not quite as good as some (eg Mavics), the right pads can often bring them well into the range of acceptability.
I would definitely replace those ancient housings with modern lined ones before making ANY judgements though.

Thanks Auchen, I'll be trying new housing before anything else. The next step will be to replace the pads with Kool Stops, and I'd even swap in a different set of calipers before trying the levers.

I have the same calipers on my '77 Trek, but with first-gen DuraAce levers, and I have no problem stopping it. I need to see if I can "antique" some Jagwire housing :)

I still haven't built up the International, and I no longer have the Super Course.

What size is that, Chris. Maybe my wife would fit it, ya know? And we'll be visiting her parents next month, ya know?

It's a 20.5", I think it would fit Carol fine :) Are you visiting over Easter weekend again?

We'll arrive on the 9th and return home on the 16th.

You're both welcome to ride anything in the stable, I'll send you an email!