Fifty Plus (50+) - Should I Fight A Traffic Citation?

First off, I was "in the wrong" on this, so I'm not looking for sympathy...

Scenario:
1) I've crossed this intersection hundreds of times.
2) Approaching intersection at a major highway crossing controlled by a traffic signal. Left turn lanes in my direction and opposing. The crossing highway has a RED light and is stopped. The opposing side goes first, with both its left and its straight drivers going simultaneously.
3) I reach the intersection on the edge of the right-hand "straight" direction lane, to cross. I roll to a stop, but remain upright (not unclipped), and do a semi trackstand waiting for our turn, which (by my experience) is about three seconds away.
4) The opposing side clears, meaning NO CARS in sight coming from the opposing direction. The crossing highway cars are stopped fully. Our green light is now about two seconds away.

You can see this coming...

5) I enter the intersection while our light is still red, and begin to cross. A motorcycle police officer swings out from the crossing shoulder (my left periphery) with his siren on as I get midway into the intersection. The light is now green in our direction (the delay might have been two seconds, but more likely 1 - 1 1/2 seconds before changing).

6) The officer, a sargeant, would not offer to warn me, but insisted that he wouldcsite me for "disregarding a traffic signal". Fair enough.

So, my only defense in court would be whether the officer acted "reasonably" in citing me. I don't mind the fine or the impact to my VA driver's license. I just have the feeling that he didn't need to go to this extreme to make his point.

Again, I'm in the wrong here. Flame away, and thanks in advance.

Phil

Don't ask me, I have a bad feeling these days about police being over zealous in giving out citations. Also I went to court once to fight a ticket and the #@*$& judge would rather listen to himself then let me state my case.

You have no defense and I, personally, wouldn't waste my time fighting the degree of punishment.

When I lived in Michigan, some communities were more interested in the money than anything else. So when I got a ticket, I went to court to argue it. There is a plea called "Guilty with an explanation" and every single person in two hours of argued tickets who pleaded that way had the ticket thrown out, but the fine paid as "court fees." So no license points, but the wallet is still just as light. One person didn't pick up on the trend and pleaded Not Guilty. She was found guilty, paid the fine and got the points. (I got off entirely; I knew a cop in that jurisdiction.)

My point is that if you choose to argue it and want to represent yourself, you may want to prepare whatever argument you can in your favor, but show up to court early and see what works and what doesn't before your turn.

No. You say you are guilty. The cop was being very strict, but you did violate the law. That doesn't make you a bad person, but you did it, you got caught and you got a ticket. I would pay it.

First off, I was "in the wrong" on this, so I'm not looking for sympathy...


Three things here....
One, you admit your guilt. (Kind of a key point don'tcha think?)
Two, a bicycle is a 'vehicle' in all 50 states so it is the same as any other "vehicle" that operates on public roads.
Three, the cop did his job plain and simple.

So man up..... pay the fine and take the hit.

What are the benefits of fighting the ticket? As Doo said, you can sometimes get out of the points. My wife got a speeding ticket last year, went to court and just paid court costs. Fine and points waived. Is going to court worth the time and effort? will the points on your license cause you additional cost elsewhere? I'd consider fighting it, but I would need to know the possible benefits and costs.

Police are sworn to keep us safe from others and ourselves... Venturing into an intersection while your light is red is a dangerous habit. Next time search for the officer before going through a red light. Take time to analyze the situation thoroughly.

No, the courts (even traffic courts) are clogged enough now, and you are, by admission, guilty of the infraction. Frankly, I might have thanked the officer for actually treating me like I belong on the road.

The job of a motor officer is to enforce traffic laws. He did that. If you want to take it to court, it's going to be a very short trial. If your record is clean, you may be offered a reduced fine in exchange for your attending traffic school.

What's the worst that can happen? The fine stay the same?

I'd go just to see if the judge will back the fine off. Might want to say that being on a bike you need extra time to cross and sometimes there isn't enough time and you just anticipated the light a little too soon. Don't try to bull **** and admit your guilt but make it sound good.

I got caught fishing without a license(thought I had one). Got a ticket and the judge threw it out because I went and bought one before I came to court. Maybe the judge rides. Never know. I'm telling you, after living in Maryland most of my life and then moving to the South, the stereotypes about southern cops and judges is completely backwards. Nicest people your ever want to meet. Maryland not so much.

No, the courts (even traffic courts) are clogged enough now, and you are, by admission, guilty of the infraction. Frankly, I might have thanked the officer for actually treating me like I belong on the road.

My father, now deceased, was a Marine in WWII and a judge by profession. He taught us to respect authority unquestioningly. I did, in fact, thank that officer for doing his job. I told him that I needed reminders to maintain the highest level of safety. He appreciated my saying so.

My wife is the "queen of the fine print" and can fight anything successfully. She insists that I should fight and is prepared to roll out any number of curious explanations and strategies to get the ticket thrown out. I'm more reluctant to blatantly ignore my guilt and plead for some technicality or nuance. That's why I asked the members of this forum. You guys are loaded with common sense and life experiences. Thanks. Phil

I doubt you can beat it. This is why I always do a back check for police cars whenever going through an empty intersection. Also watch out for cars without hubcaps, they are often unmarked cruisers. Once I was about to run through a light in exactly your situation when I noticed a cruiser stopped at the intersection. I slammed the brakes hard and kind of straddle-walked backwards to the line. No ticket but I must have looked pretty dumb.

He sounds like he acted perfectly reasonably. His "extreme" enforcement helps keep me and other cyclists from being t-boned by folks running red lights. I favor things that enhance my safety.

As mentioned, entering an intersection on the red is a bad habit. The opposing lane still had a green. No cars in sight, but are you sure there were no bikes? The yellow phases in Northern Virginia are very short. For example, in an uphill intersection, one can easily enter on the green and have the yellow phase end before exiting.

Human perception, including my own, is one of the things I trust least, so I want procedurization for an extra safety layer.

Paul

Boy, can one tell this is a Fifty Plus forum! Respect the law? Take your punishment as a man? When and where am I, in the fifties in a small town in America?

Personally I hate seeing the way that the police in many areas have come to be viewed as the "enemy." That, in my eyes, is as much from the way they are used by politicians as revenue enhancers as anything in the culture. But for all that it is a joy to read the mature comments here! :)

-don

Very well-put.

Put this in the road bike forum and see what happens(just for grins : )

Very well-put.

Put this in the road bike forum and see what happens(just for grins : )

I don't seek advice in the road bikes forum. Too much testosterone for me. PG

Well, my father (RIP) was a police officer for the City of Milwaukee for 32 years and I know he wouldn't have pulled over the OP. There is a thing such as common sense that seems to be missing these days and they are allowed to use discretion. Every one of use (including the police when off duty, some when on duty) probably violate a number traffic laws and regulations every day. Now if it was a cage endangering someone else that's a different story but a bicyclist maybe or maybe not endangering themselves, I think my Father would have let it slide and at worst offer a warning.

I was pulled over a month ago on the Interstate and I was wondering to myself "WTF did I do wrong"? I was going 67mph (in a 65) in the right lane and people are passing me going at least 75 mph so why was I pulled over? She didn't like my front window tint and the fact that I didn't have a front license plate displayed (because I changed the front grille after a sheet of ice flew off of a semi and smashed it). So I had to remove the tint and change the grille back to stock so I could display the plate. Then she starts asking me questions about the truck like "so what kind of gas mileage do you get with this thing and it sure is big". So either she didn't like pickups and people who drive them or she was a Chevy girl out to get F150's, I don't know.

First off, I was "in the wrong" on this, so I'm not looking for sympathy...

So, my only defense in court would be whether the officer acted "reasonably" in citing me. I don't mind the fine or the impact to my VA driver's license. I just have the feeling that he didn't need to go to this extreme to make his point.

Again, I'm in the wrong here. Flame away, and thanks in advance.

Phil
I am a former police officer (and no, I'm not going to do any flaming) & I don't see how "acting reasonably" or not enters into whether or not a judge will find you guilty. It is a more black & white interpretation of state statutes than that. At least in my experience.

Asking for no points may work but that wasn't your concern anyways. Also, showing up to contest it with the hope that the officer fails to show can sometimes work!

Had a case one time where an insurance company was going to drop me for a wreck in a winter storm that I avoided about 15 cars and saw a dump truck behind me looking like it wouldn't stop. I worked my way thru all the cars, missing all of them, only to get sucked into an off camber shoulder and bounced off the guard rail. Basically I save the insurance company thousands of dollars and they still wanted to drop me. I showed up at the hearing and they did not and the mediator sided with me(of course). I then dropped them and never did business with them again in the 20+ years since. Insurance companies sometimes are their own worst enemy.
So, showing up may have it's rewards.

Just my opinion but you should always go to court. Do whatever you can to clog the system. Plus I've either beaten or gotten lesser fines when I've gone. Never on a pedal bike though.

I always go to court on traffic tickets, and always get a reduction in points/fine etc. Most recent; the officer cited me for 84 in a 65 and weaving through traffic. I explained to the judge I wasn't weaving through traffic but maneuvering to get over to exit just ahead. When he asked me where I was going in such a hurry I said Dunkin Donuts. Naturally, the citing police officer who was in attendance was sympathetic, and he agreed when the judge asked him if he should let me off, which he did. No fine, no points....

On another occasion, I had hit an intersection just as the light turned red. When I went to court I figured I'd be sitting there a long time so took some job related paperwork with me to do while waiting. It was a stack of papers in manila file folders. When I was called in, I had the stack of folders with me and set it on the table. The prosecutor saw the stack of papers and said, "I see you've been doing your homework on this," obviously assuming that the folders were copies of case histories or something. He said, "I'll tell you what, I'll cut it down to failure to signal a turn," which he did. That's 1 point instead of 4. I don't remember how much lesser the fine was, but it was substantial.

My brother in law was a cop for many years, and told a story about one of the first tickets that he wrote:

He worked graveyard shift, and it was very early morning, with virtually no traffic. He is watching an intersection and sees a car roll up to a red light, stop, there was no other traffic, so he then went through the red signal. He stopped the motorist, and issued a ticket for ignoring the signal. The motorist went to court and argued two things - One - that he had not ignored the signal, he came to a complete stop, looked for other traffic and when he saw that it was safe, went through the intersection. He then also made the argument that nothing that he had done had endangered either himself, or anybody else. The judge let him off much to the disgust of my BIL.

I am sympathetic with the OP since I often enter intersections on my commute in anticipation of the green, however whenever I do so, I look very carefully to make sure that nobody is going to jump and catch me - I can't believe that I would have missed a cop at the intersection. To me, the fact that the OP did not see the officer until he put his lights on, is an indication that he had not exercised due caution prior to entering the intersection.

Go to court, what have you to lose? With towns and cities needing money it's iffy if you can get the fine reduced but, go for it.

Not sure what to suggest, but my "gut instinct" would be that a judge would let it stand.
In your state, do citations received when cycling go on your driving record?

Sorry, last ticket (one of two in my 60 years of driving) was in the mid 70's for driving in a 4:00 pm bus lane at 4:01 - my watch was wrong, so I don't have a lot of experience in these matters.

However, I do sometime anticipate green lights (checking extremely carefully for any vehicles), particularly where the road is quite wide and I know the light is very fast, allowing only the one car - which finally triggered the light for me to cross.

Well..... I usually wait for the green, mostly because it's just the right thing to do. Plus there is simply too much traffic in my area not to be careful.
You got caught, by an officer also on two wheels. :-)
First question that comes to mind is can you afford to take off work to fight the ticket in court?
Second is what do you expect to win, it seems it's pretty cut and dry. If the officer appears in court, you are basically cooked.
As experienced and mature cyclist, we need to set an example out there. After all, we are vehicles and need to obey the same rules of the road!

Pay the ticket - lesson learned.

If you have the time to spare, go to court. I personally would just suck it up because prevailing is a low probability. You need to work on your timing ;)

-Gary

I would go to court. In fact I would get a lawyer and go to court. It is not so much about whether you are guilty or not, you will pay for your actions, but the points and potential insurance issues are more important. See if you can't get it reduced to a non-moving violation, usually in NY if you come to court with a Lawyer most tickets get reduced to a parking violation. Thats just the way the system works - just ask Casey and her buddy OJ.

I would like to see a parking citation for a bike - possibly if you locked it to a no parking sign. :lol:

When you think about it, most of us violate traffic laws nearly every time we cycle or drive. How many of us come to a complete stop at a stop sign every time? Did we maybe not totally stop maybe once, twice?... Do all of us really drive 35 MPH all the time when the limit is 35 MPH? Exactly, I thought so. We do get away with it nearly every time. So that one time that we are caught, well, it's time to pay up.

Courts are there for due process. Sounds like you feel that a warning would have been a good call. The judge might agree. See if they have a night court and bring the family for an education. I once watched a guy who was let off on a helmet law ticket come back and try to use it as "precedent". He had the whole court laughing.

I would contest it and if I lost, appeal. Courts don't like to waste time on stuff like this and there's a good chance there wouldn't even be a second court appearance. Even if you're in one of those jurisdictions that are ramping up revenue with ticket quotas that can work. But mainly it really is a truly petty ticket. Those lights with sensors that never change for a bike, what you did would have been perfectly legal. What's difference did it make really, between this light and one of those if there was no traffic and no danger? Or maybe you got "confused" and thought that was the situation with this light.

What really happened doesn't matter, if you get a good lawyer. Why can't anyone see that. It's cheaper than the fine in these parts, especially if your lawyer plays golf with your judge, and they generally do.

Well..... I usually wait for the green, mostly because it's just the right thing to do. Plus there is simply too much traffic in my area not to be careful.
You got caught, by an officer also on two wheels. :-)
First question that comes to mind is can you afford to take off work to fight the ticket in court?
Second is what do you expect to win, it seems it's pretty cut and dry. If the officer appears in court, you are basically cooked.
As experienced and mature cyclist, we need to set an example out there. After all, we are vehicles and need to obey the same rules of the road!

Pay the ticket - lesson learned.

I appreciate all of the thoughtful advice given so far. The court date is a Thursday in September, so I'd have to take off from work.

I can't escape the fact that what I did was wrong and that as willb points out, "we need to set an example"...

Based on all of the feedback, I'm going to research whether a bicycle moving violation will be tied in some way to my VA driver's license. If so, I'll go to court and fight. If not, I'll pay the fine. PG

:thumb:

Phil,

I know that intersection. If you had taken me along I would have drawn off the cop when you did the TDF sprint to escape. The doctor says I can resume activities like cycling next Monday - so we'll have to pick one of your recovery days so I can join you for a few miles.

It's frustrating to be the one called out for a minor infraction when so much worse is missed consistently. Perhaps going to court will reduce points but it'll also burn leave time.

BTW - I just bought a Chrome Paramount frameset. I'll move the parts from the RRA over and sell the RRA frameset.

The doctor says I can resume activities like cycling next Monday - so we'll have to pick one of your recovery days so I can join you for a few miles.

Robert,
That's great news! I hope that you're feeling better each day, and you bet I'd like to ride together when you're back "in the saddle" next week.
Phil

I'd pay the ticket.

Barney Fife wins again....zzzzzzzzzzzz

Do the crime, do the time. YMMV.

I would contest it and if I lost, appeal. Courts don't like to waste time on stuff like this and there's a good chance there wouldn't even be a second court appearance. Even if you're in one of those jurisdictions that are ramping up revenue with ticket quotas that can work. But mainly it really is a truly petty ticket. Those lights with sensors that never change for a bike, what you did would have been perfectly legal. What's difference did it make really, between this light and one of those if there was no traffic and no danger? Or maybe you got "confused" and thought that was the situation with this light.

I would do this^^^.

No. You say you are guilty. The cop was being very strict, but you did violate the law. That doesn't make you a bad person, but you did it, you got caught and you got a ticket. I would pay it.

Completely correctamundo. One point, however. In some states (like Florida), traffic tickets on your bike don't result in points, which likely means your auto insurance rates. If you simply pay the ticket, make sure the clerk who takes your payment records it as a bike ticket, rather than a regular citation.

:p
I always go to court on traffic tickets, and always get a reduction in points/fine etc. Most recent; the officer cited me for 84 in a 65 and weaving through traffic. I explained to the judge I wasn't weaving through traffic but maneuvering to get over to exit just ahead. When he asked me where I was going in such a hurry I said Dunkin Donuts. Naturally, the citing police officer who was in attendance was sympathetic, and he agreed when the judge asked him if he should let me off, which he did. No fine, no points....

On another occasion, I had hit an intersection just as the light turned red. When I went to court I figured I'd be sitting there a long time so took some job related paperwork with me to do while waiting. It was a stack of papers in manila file folders. When I was called in, I had the stack of folders with me and set it on the table. The prosecutor saw the stack of papers and said, "I see you've been doing your homework on this," obviously assuming that the folders were copies of case histories or something. He said, "I'll tell you what, I'll cut it down to failure to signal a turn," which he did. That's 1 point instead of 4. I don't remember how much lesser the fine was, but it was substantial.

Appears to be more fiction here than in a daytime soap opera:p

Seems to me that the issue about the officer's action would be whether he acted within his discretion, rather than whether it was reasonable. If you did the crime, which you admit, he was clearly within his authority. You might get a judge to second-guess that, but I doubt it. But, presuming the judge has his own discretion as to the punishment, it may well be worth showing up.

If I were a judge I'd contemplate comparables. If you did the same thing in your car, would you still feel like going to court to contest it?

The only winnable argument I could see if that you sat through a light and you never got a green because of light traffic, thus the safest alternative was to ride across when the traffic from side to side was stopped--which probably would not have happened due to the amount of traffice at that intersection.......

I would go to court. In fact I would get a lawyer and go to court. It is not so much about whether you are guilty or not, you will pay for your actions, but the points and potential insurance issues are more important. See if you can't get it reduced to a non-moving violation, usually in NY if you come to court with a Lawyer most tickets get reduced to a parking violation. Thats just the way the system works - just ask Casey and her buddy OJ.

I would like to see a parking citation for a bike - possibly if you locked it to a no parking sign. :lol:

You know, people in Massachusetts ("The PAY state") have been arguing for years that speeding tickets are all about money, not safety. This, despite what public officials say.
But, starting in 2010, there is his proof that it is indeed about money.

Contesting a speeding ticket in MA is a 2-phase process. Your first hearing will be before a clerk magistrate of the district court. These people are not judges, but they have some of the authorities of a judge. They almost always let the ticket stand. (you are found responsible) This hearing will cost you $25.00, win or lose. Oh, the LEO who issued the citation does not have to appear at this hearing.

So, you are found responsible, and you wish to appeal this ruling. Your next step will be a hearing before a real judge. This hearing will cost you $50.00, win or lose. The LEO must appear at this hearing. If he does not, you win by default. Years ago, most LEOS would not show, and motorists would walk away, smiling. Not so today. The state, plus cities and towns, want every penny. So, the LEO will likely appear, unless he has an overtime detail at a road construction site. (That overtime pay is much more than court overtime pay). In MA, it will cost you $800.00 to $1000.00 to have an attorney represent you for a speeding ticket, but many feel it is money well spent. If you lose, you are now looking at thousands in insurance costs, besides the ticket itself. Oh yes, you are out $75.00, no matter what. MA does not have a "points on your license" system, but they do have a step system. The more tickets you get, the more "steps" on your record. So it is similar. Doesn't seem to stop bad drivers though.

The answer is yes, I did get a speeding ticket decades ago, way before you had to pay to have it heard. I beat it because the cop was a no-show. I'm much more careful about this today. Not everyone is, as any trip up route 128 will attest.

For those not from the area, Boston is notorious for parking tickets. Ditto for Cambridge, right across the river. What can you say, it's like an ATM for both cities.

Okay done ranting.

Okay, from my own personal experience, and the experience of my clients (I'm an insurance agent) ALWAYS GO TO COURT. The courts are all so backed up that they deal you right down to a lower ticket, or don't charge you. Do you have a clean driving record? If you do, the judge will DEFINITELY agree to non-abjudication and it will be dismissed. These tickets count on your driving record and insurance companies are getting pickier and pickier. Some of them won't even take you if you placed a TOWING CLAIM. I even had one of my clients go for a seat belt ticket - the girl at the court was like "what? you can't fight this". The judge dismissed it.

Be nice, be respectful, dress nicely. Yes sir I realize I did - yada yada yada - but I really wasn't aware, or I wasn't thinking - I don't usually do this......I feel a warning would have sufficed and I never would have made that mistake again....

I'm a police officer . . . I've done the same exact thing as you before. I'm not saying it's right, but I've done it. I wouldn't waste my time in court if I were you, even to prove a point.

Years ago, when I lived in Maryland, I got stopped by a Hyattsville (PG County) city cop for running a stop sign in my car, and yes I did run it. I came almost completely to a stop, but not entirely. Didn't plan to fight it or try to argue it, until the cop gets to my window and hands me a bunch of attitude about how I so blatantly just blew through the stop sign without bothering to stop. If I'm going to get a lecture, at least it should be an accurate and truthful lecture.

Well, it ticked me off, so I chanced it and went to court. The cop didn't show. Case dismissed, no crime, no fine, no time, no points.

In 2004, got stopped for speeding in Bellevue (WA). 45 MPH in a 30 MPH. Told the cop I knew how fast I was going, but I mistakenly thought it was a 40 MPH zone. He wrote it for 9 MPH over the limit. Went to court and did a deferment. I'm not sure, but I don't believe Virginia does deferments. If Virginia does deferments, do it. It's worth it.

Guy I trained with in FMA was a cop, and I remember him telling me how he'd only write tickets for the serious stuff like driving without a license, without insurance, running through school bus red lights, etc. Maybe 3 tickets out of every 50 stops. If they caught attitude on simple infractions, that would also often led to a ticket; however, he did tell me stories of people with major attitude who got a walk. As with all things, there's always a range.

Something I learned from my experience in Maryland was that if one went to court, and pled guilty, the judge would generally reduce the fine, cut the points, or perhaps both. I watched as the judge just sliced through case after case, people pled guilty, the judge throws them a bone, and off they went. Anyone have any similar experience in Virginia courts?

IMO you don't have to fight it when in court. Just explain the situation as you have done here. I'd expect a common sense response in reducing any penalties there may be.