View Full Version : CM will ruin it all.
Being new to the bike forum and cycling in general I may be stepping out of line here but who cares?
This "Critical Mass" crap is going to backfire from what I have been reading about it.
I'm afraid it may take away our cycling rights rather then improve on them. It seems that it's just an excuse for a bunch of kids to get out and cause trouble.
CM is not an excuse for kids to cause trouble, kids who like to cause trouble use CM as an excuse to do so. Out of 200 riders you'll have 10-20 maybe who want to cause problems and that taints the whole group.
Before passing judgment try actually going to a CM. ;)
Being new to the bike forum and cycling in general I may be stepping out of line here but who cares?
This "Critical Mass" crap is going to backfire from what I have been reading about it.
I'm afraid it may take away our cycling rights rather then improve on them. It seems that it's just an excuse for a bunch of kids to get out and cause trouble.
Where I live (and I suspect it's the same in most areas), we have no cycling rights now. Autos are always buzzing me (including a cop once!), yelling @ me, and even throwing objects. At least one of these incidents happens to me on EVERY RIDE. What are "they" going to take away from me in terms of cycling rights? Will they shoot on sight next? :eek:
If cyclists want to get together once/month to protest our total lack of rights, I certainly have no problem with it. :)
Being new to the bike forum and cycling in general I may be stepping out of line here but who cares?
This "Critical Mass" crap is going to backfire from what I have been reading about it.
I'm afraid it may take away our cycling rights rather then improve on them. It seems that it's just an excuse for a bunch of kids to get out and cause trouble.
Being new to the bike forum and cycling in general, maybe you should do some research about it before weighing in. critical-mass.org is a good place to start.
(Unless, of course, you believe that police have a right to stop you from riding your bike with your friends without first asking their permission, in which case I encourage you to go on believing and flaming away as you're doing here.)
Best,
Laika
Out of 200 riders you'll have 10-20 maybe who want to cause problems and that taints the whole group.
This is what I mean by Backfire. Who is going to make the headlines? The 180 or so serious CM'ers or the 10-20 trouble makers. Pretty soon we'll be seeing signs saying things like "No bicycles allowed between 9:00am and 5:00pm."
I'm curious. Has CM changed anything for the better?
Being new to the bike forum and cycling in general, maybe you should do some research about it before weighing in. critical-mass.org is a good place to start.
Best,
Laika
I did a few days ago. And then I checked out thier link to my areas CM site. And there were pictures of kids mostly, riding bikes towing trailers with boom boxes. And blocking traffic by taking up two lanes.
I'm all for bicycle rights. Bikes were here first. And it's a damn pity life is evolving around autos instead of bicycles. "The Bicycle is mans most nobel invention"
I just feel Critical mass is going to blow it for all. Why not join a club and get the job done through the courts?
In my area they seem to be doing a preety good job. Bike trails are being placed here and there. Bike lanes along most major streets.
I'm all for bicycle rights. Bikes were here first. And it's a damn pity life is evolving around autos instead of bicycles. "The Bicycle is mans most nobel invention"
I just feel Critical mass is going to blow it for all. Why not join a club and get the job done through the courts?
only in the U.S.
Travelinguyrt
11-14-04, 09:45 AM
If every advance in the cause of expansion of "human rights" waited for the pols to get the job done we would still have children working in factories, mines and getting killed, you would not have 30 minutes min for lunch, vacations,(yeh sure one week in USA, 4 weeks in most of Europe),and look at the total lack of interest in pols for child day care centers for working types, OH and yeh the big one,womens voting rights which my greatgrandmother and grandmother worked for years to help become law.
So sit on your butt, do nothing and watch cyclists get killed because paint can't be applied to streets for lanes and mortorists can't be jailed for hitting AND KILLING US.
sit back and do nothing, or get off your lazy butt , the life you save may belong to your child or grandchild
Remember the indifference by a former administration in the face of the early AIDS situation? 7 years before it was even mentioned by name?
Thats what happens when we wait for pols to get off their butts and get things done
You like to ride your bike in a beautiful park? Think the parks just happened?
Pols are supposed to follow the electorate, seems somehow it has been turned around
How long do you think the current air traveling mess would last if ALL pols had to travel as the rest of us do, wait in lines suffer indignities of personal inspections.
Wait do nothing, criticize those who want to see better things for themselves and their children and friends, or get up, get out, ride and make yourself heard
Being not new to the Forum, I would like to say that I wouldn't mind if certain people in NYC CM were beaten over the head with a bat, particularly by me. They're ruining it for everyone else.
vincenzosi
11-14-04, 09:59 AM
Just a question for the CM advocates: Besides demonstrating that lots of people ride bikes, what does it accomplish?
The police show up waiting for trouble.
The news reports the most obnoxious of the riders.
The buzz about CM outside the cycling community is absolutely bad.
So besides riling people up, has CM accomplished anything besides pissing people off?
Now, I think cyclists have their place. I think bikes have every bit of right to the road that cars do. But does CM really do anything to accomplish any goals other than going out with the intention of being disruptive?
In my neighborhood, there are a group of four middle aged guys who go out every Saturday (or Sunday, depending on the weather) sometimes ten to fifteen at a time. They're given respect on the road. They're respectful of motorists.
All in all, it's a mutual relationship.
I think if cyclists just got together and rode rather than "riding to protest" the message would reach people who aren't cyclists a whole hell of a lot better.
suntreader
11-14-04, 10:03 AM
Being new to the bike forum and cycling in general, maybe you should do some research about it before weighing in. critical-mass.org is a good place to start.
I went to the CM website and searched for the CM ride nearest my home. The link led me to this:
http://www.carolinapeace.org/
This website appears to be mostly about leftist political issues... not about cycling. Don't misunderstand me... I think our society is enriched when all political perspectives can be heard. However, if you link the issue of cyclists rights to what most South Carolinians perceive to be "extreme left" politics, the cyclists will indeed suffer.
Instead of adopting an "in your face" attitude toward lawmakers and law enforcement officers, I've found it more effective to engage them in meaningful discussion and treat them the same way I would like them to treat me.
If lawmakers or the police perceive you as being a responsible citizen... and even a friend... it is less likely that they will treat you unfairly in the future. Insteading of demanding that cyclists be granted "their rights," perhaps you could help your municipal government better define exactly what those rights are and how they affect other groups that are equally concerned with the protection of their rights.
Instead of fighting the City government and the police, cyclists in Myrtle Beach have volunteered their time and expertise to improve conditions for cyclists and pedestrians. They've even assisted the City and the police to develop routes for the city-sponsored marathon/ride <http://www.mbmarathon.com> scheduled for February 2005.
Now that our City leaders see the value of cycling to the health and economy of our community, the following benefits have been achieved:
1) All new roads are being built with clearly marked bicycle-only lanes.
2) Special cycling events are being scheduled into city recreation programs.
3) The city hosted a statewide conference to promote cycling and pedestrian rights two weeks ago.
4) The police are very nice toward cyclists unless it appears that the bike is being used in the commission of a crime or the cyclist is intoxicated.
These appear to be the goals of CM, but these results were achieved through constructive engagement with the authorities... not by slapping them in the face. Sure, we may not get 100% of what we want by doing it this way, but I think getting 80% of what we want is pretty good... especially in comparison to the apparent ineffectiveness of the CM methods.
I have ridden both Chicago and Detroit Critical Mass rides.
Chicago - Police respect us, we respect them, sometimes Bike Cops ride with us. Pedestrians love to see us, they wave, they talk to us, they ask what we are riding for. Drivers cheer us on, stick their hands out their windows for high-fives. Yes there are some drivers that act out, and yes there are some riders that act out, but it's a very peaceful ride.
Detroit- Much smaller rider, this is the most car-centered city in the world, and guess what? Pedestrians love to see us, cheer us on. Drivers smile and wave. Again, some drivers get annoyed with us and honk or yell.
So it's not like every city has what New York has (And the problem there is the police not the riders).
Also CM does change things. My dad, used to be a bike racer, he's still very environmental, very interested in the city/communities. He had pretty much stopped riding though. Eventually I convinced him to go to a CM with me, and he loved it, and he rode home (He had taken the train to downtown, it's like 10 miles). That's just one example, but CM empowers people to ride, they feel comfortable on top of the bike again.
vincenzosi
11-14-04, 10:40 AM
(And the problem there is the police not the riders).
It's a combination of the police over-reacting and the riders going there with a chip on their shoulders to jam the streets. Sure there are some nice CM riders, but let's face facts: Those aren't the ones whose stories reach the public, and in the end, it isn't what cyclists mean to each other, it's what the public perceives, and pissing drivers off by doing circles in intersections does zip to help the cause of cycling in New York City, whether it's one CM'er doing it, or a hundred, drivers won't remember the 1,000 CM'ers who were riding peacefully. They'll remember the three idiots that made them late.
That's the perception people have, and CM does nothing to change it.
LittleBigMan
11-14-04, 12:39 PM
CM is not the only avenue for making a point. Commuting by bike day after day in normal traffic, obeying the rules (mostly ;) ) and being kind and courteous to all is a real demonstration of transportational cycling. Why not show motorists in your community the real picture of bicycle commuting by doing it on a regular basis? I've gained acceptance from my fellow road users. They have learned to maneuver around me safely and are accustomed to my presence.
In short, I've gotten what I've wanted by persistence.
Being not new to the Forum, I would like to say that I wouldn't mind if certain people in NYC CM were beaten over the head with a bat, particularly by me. They're ruining it for everyone else.
Thanks for elevating the debate. You've really focused the issue for the rest of us. Well done!
It's a combination of the police over-reacting and the riders going there with a chip on their shoulders to jam the streets. Sure there are some nice CM riders, but let's face facts: Those aren't the ones whose stories reach the public, and in the end, it isn't what cyclists mean to each other, it's what the public perceives, and pissing drivers off by doing circles in intersections does zip to help the cause of cycling in New York City, whether it's one CM'er doing it, or a hundred, drivers won't remember the 1,000 CM'ers who were riding peacefully. They'll remember the three idiots that made them late.
That's the perception people have, and CM does nothing to change it.
Lots of idiots root for baseball teams...should we all stop watching baseball?
Lots of idiots wear blue jeans...should we all stop wearing blue jeans?
Lots of idiots ride the subway...should we all stop riding the subway?
Face it, if you made your decisions about what you did or didn't do based on whether there were a couple of idiots involved in whatever activity you were considering, you'd never leave the house. And I'd argue, that as a leaderless event, there's a greater chance for anyone who wants to show up to CM and influence the behavior of the group. Don't like the tone of your local CM? SHOW UP AND CHANGE IT. Or complain on a message board. You can do either, but I think showing up and riding responsibly and trying to effect the tone of the ride is more productive. Maybe that's just me, thoough.
Dchiefransom
11-14-04, 02:32 PM
Where I live (and I suspect it's the same in most areas), we have no cycling rights now. Autos are always buzzing me (including a cop once!), yelling @ me, and even throwing objects. At least one of these incidents happens to me on EVERY RIDE. What are "they" going to take away from me in terms of cycling rights? Will they shoot on sight next? :eek:
If cyclists want to get together once/month to protest our total lack of rights, I certainly have no problem with it. :)
Shoot on sight "next"? You mean "again", don't you?
Dchiefransom
11-14-04, 02:36 PM
If every advance in the cause of expansion of "human rights" waited for the pols to get the job done we would still have children working in factories, mines and getting killed, you would not have 30 minutes min for lunch, vacations,(yeh sure one week in USA, 4 weeks in most of Europe),and look at the total lack of interest in pols for child day care centers for working types, OH and yeh the big one,womens voting rights which my greatgrandmother and grandmother worked for years to help become law.
So sit on your butt, do nothing and watch cyclists get killed because paint can't be applied to streets for lanes and mortorists can't be jailed for hitting AND KILLING US.
sit back and do nothing, or get off your lazy butt , the life you save may belong to your child or grandchild
Remember the indifference by a former administration in the face of the early AIDS situation? 7 years before it was even mentioned by name?
Thats what happens when we wait for pols to get off their butts and get things done
You like to ride your bike in a beautiful park? Think the parks just happened?
Pols are supposed to follow the electorate, seems somehow it has been turned around
How long do you think the current air traveling mess would last if ALL pols had to travel as the rest of us do, wait in lines suffer indignities of personal inspections.
Wait do nothing, criticize those who want to see better things for themselves and their children and friends, or get up, get out, ride and make yourself heard
I think if politicians followed the electorate, we'd be relegated to bike paths and sidewalks. Cycling advocates are trying to make the politicians think "outside the box" and make changes for the better, before the need to hits them over the head.
Five cyclists of which one or two were detained? If nothing else, the Brooklyn CM seems to have redefined what constitutes a parade or a protest. Maybe someone should give Norman Siegal a bike so he can ride along too.
catatonic
11-14-04, 02:46 PM
what i think CM nshould do is split each region into a separate mass, and adjust monthly for a while till we get 20-50 man mini-masses. That way the traffic obstruction is minimal, while still getting the point across.
Just a question for the CM advocates: Besides demonstrating that lots of people ride bikes, what does it accomplish?
CM was never meant to accomplish anything.
CM is about riding bikes and that's it. CM has been going on for many years and only recently has it gone awry in some cities.
Our CM is when a number of bike riders get together and ride their bikes. That's it. What do we expect to accomplish? What do you expect to accomplish by riding your bike tomorrow?
Travelinguyrt
11-14-04, 02:51 PM
Well,in the review of the recent past election,red states and thinking therein will rule for some years into the future.So much for advancing intelligent politcal help for bike riders
Name a single piece of compassionate legislation EVER to come out of a "red" state of mind
Name a single piece of compassionate legislation EVER to come out of a "red" state of mind
Emancipation Proclamation
vincenzosi
11-14-04, 03:08 PM
CM is about riding bikes and that's it? If that was the case, people would ride their bikes from Union Square in New York, not circle in intersections, not taunt cops, and not generally act like jerks.
There are tons of organized rides throughout the city on any given weekend. If the idea of CM is, as you say it, to "come together and ride bikes," then it's a message lost on the participants.
All the CM rides do, in this city, is inflame drivers against cyclists. We preach to the choir here, folks. You ain't going nowhere advocacy-wise if you're pissing the people you want to respect you off. Joining an organization like TA or lobbying your local elected officials does a hell of a lot more than looping a crosswalk.
Suntreader, you wrote:
"If lawmakers or the police perceive you as being a responsible citizen... and even a friend... it is less likely that they will treat you unfairly in the future."
So what is the deal here? Citizens must make sure that their behavior meets the approval of authorities in order to be accorded the basic right of being treated fairly? The thing that is ticking me off about this discussion is the widespread acceptance of uneven, biased, and discriminative teatment by the police against our own brothers and sisters. Then, to make matters much worse, blame is assigned to the victims of these measures!
If the police pepper spray, mass arrest, and take the cars of people in a traffic jam after some of them act like jerks (I know it's hard to visualize cagers in a traffic jam acting like jerks), or everyone leaving a bar in Boston after a Sox game (yeah, hard to imagine some Sox fans acting like jerks), there would be a massive public outcry. Yet, we accept this behavior with CM as normal and even caused by people, in a so-called democracy, who are participating in a legitimate and legal activity. Stop acting like sheep people! We are not on the roads through the benevolent tolerance of police or judges. We are there because we have the right to be there! Take it! Defend it! Or at least support those who will fight for you when you will not.
vincenzosi
11-14-04, 04:15 PM
Let me explain something to you Mars...
I don't need Critical Mass folks fighting for my rights. I write letters to my politicians. I ride the streets of my neighborhood on a regular basis with traffic. I joined Transportation Alternatives, an organization whose work on the issues facing cyclists in this city is unmatched by anyone including the armchair revolutionaries that do CM.
You aren't fighting for my rights, and if you are move on. Let me decide how I'll defend my right to the road. You go play in traffic if it makes you happy.
Vincenzosi,
I appreciate the explanation. I also appreciate the work that all advocacy groups like yours do. Advocacy is a critical (excuse the pun, couldn't resist) part of every democracy. But so is activism. You, or anyone else, would be pressed to name a significant civil/social rights advance that did not have a strong activist presence. In each of these cases, I know that the activists pissed people off. CM pisses off dirivers? So do I, everytime I ride down the streets, legally and obeying very law and rule. Face it, you do too. Hve you never been yelled at, honked at, while doing nothing wrong?
Maybe you should get pepper sprayed too!
But this is missing the main point I tried to make with my first post. The description in a previous thread illustrated a Brooklyn cm illustrated an absurdly heavy handed and facist treatment of people who were doing nothing wrong. I assume you read it. Didn't that concern you?
Sheesh, my typing sucks.
vincenzosi
11-14-04, 04:49 PM
You know Mars, with all due respect (and I really do mean that in a non-patronizing way), I've gotten both ends of the spectrum in this thread and it just cracks me up. I've heard from one end that Critical Mass isn't trying to accomplish anything, and then on the other end that they're fighting for my rights.
Overzealous police officers are wrong. Period. No defense of it.
However, to say that circling intersections, riding on sidewalks, and taunting police officers is okay in the name of activism isn't right either.
Activism has a goal. You're being activist to further a goal of some kind. Yet, from what I see, CM is doing nothing to further bicycling, nothing to defend "my rights," as an earlier poster wrote, nothing to further an agenda that warrants respect of cyclists, and nothing that endears people to the cause of taking care of two wheelers on the road. In fact, considering how riled up people get over CM in this city, I'd be willing to bet that if anything, the Massers are doing nothing but painting bulleyes on the back of every cycling jersey in this city.
Look, we all have our approaches, I'm just in serious disagreement that CM really accomplishes anything in the end. All it is is a bunch of folks playing in the streets.
gpsblake
11-14-04, 04:50 PM
My question, what more rights do you want as a bicyclist? I can't think of a single law in the state that I live in that would really benefit or help bicyclist with the exception that drunk/suspended drivers who hit and kill bicyclist/walkers should get 2nd degree murder and a minimum of 20years in prison.
Cheers and Happy miles,
Blake
vincenzosi
11-14-04, 04:51 PM
PS: Can we stop using inflammatory language like "nazi cops" and "fascist tactics"
Unless you lived under Mussolini or Hitler and have first hand experience with such tactics.
suntreader
11-14-04, 05:16 PM
So what is the deal here? Citizens must make sure that their behavior meets the approval of authorities in order to be accorded the basic right of being treated fairly? The thing that is ticking me off about this discussion is the widespread acceptance of uneven, biased, and discriminative teatment by the police against our own brothers and sisters. Then, to make matters much worse, blame is assigned to the victims of these measures!
No, it's not about acting like sheep. It's about being a responsible adult... not acting like a child who throws a tantrum whenever he doesn't get exactly what he wants.
As I said earlier, our city is making tremendous progress by providing cyclist lanes on new roads and by exploring ways in which cycling can improve the economy and image of the city. Amazingly, all of this transpired without the "help" of CM.
When community leaders become convinced that cycling will benefit the community in some meaningful way... be it political, economic or social... they will respond by promoting various considerations for cycling.
I have always found community leaders and police officials to be quite approachable... IF they are approached in a respectful manner. Instead of villifying them, why don't you call them for an appointment and sit down for a frank discussion of the issues.
I have taken the time to get to know our leaders and officers on a personal level. As a result, I am often able to get little things changed. For example, when two junk cars were blocking access to a cycling path a couple of weeks ago, I called a police sergeant and he had them removed. When the cycling lanes were full of broken glass, I called someone and got them cleaned. When a drunk in a white Cadillac almost hit me last month, I called the patrol officer in that area and she grabbed the driver within minutes. All of this is a result of the fact that I have taken time to build relationships with these people... instead of calling them pigs or nazis.
Unfortunately, unless you are independently wealthy and wield absolute power on your own private island, you will have to learn to get along with both civil authorities and private citizens in order to get what you want in this world. It's not about "selling out." Instead, it's about learning to get along in a world filled with many different kinds of people... each with his or her own set of values and perspectives.
If you don't learn the art of compromise... soon... you will condemn yourself to a life of anger and frustration. And you still won't get what you want.
vincenzosi
11-14-04, 05:20 PM
I hate it when someone speaks my mind better than I do. Good job Suntreader.
In Texas on thing that CM has done for cycling is to cause a law to be enacted restricting cyclists to no more than two abreast on public roads.
Thanks, CM.
Let me explain something to you Mars...
I don't need Critical Mass folks fighting for my rights. I write letters to my politicians. I ride the streets of my neighborhood on a regular basis with traffic. I joined Transportation Alternatives, an organization whose work on the issues facing cyclists in this city is unmatched by anyone including the armchair revolutionaries that do CM.
You aren't fighting for my rights, and if you are move on. Let me decide how I'll defend my right to the road. You go play in traffic if it makes you happy.
I promise, next time I ride CM I will make it clear that I am in no way fighting for your rights or speaking for you.
Just a hint, though...you may disagree with CM riders but you should save the "armchair" designation for those who don't actually do anything. As CM riders by definition do something (that is, ride CM) they're not "armchair revolutionaries."
And if you hate CM so strongly, why are you encouraging us to play in traffic? That's what we do at CM! ;)
In Texas on thing that CM has done for cycling is to cause a law to be enacted restricting cyclists to no more than two abreast on public roads.
Thanks, CM.
I'll have to take your word for that but I do know that in NYC, the "two abreast" law was in place before CM. It seems to have been in place in a lot of other cities before CM, too.
In Texas on thing that CM has done for cycling is to cause a law to be enacted restricting cyclists to no more than two abreast on public roads.
Thanks, CM.
That is a law all over the country and it's not caused by CM.
Who are you guys blaming when you say "thanks CM?" CM is not a group, it's not an organization. CM is a day that people around the world ride together on. If the people riding in CM decide to voice their political agendas or decide to run redlights then go after those people, not CM. CM has gone on in NYC for a fing decade now okay, and have not had issues before this. These people are protesting because for some reason protesting is cool nowadays, but it will fade and CM will continue to go.
If you care about cycling as you apparently say you do maybe you should try sticking up for CM. Do you need a permit to ride a bike? Not yet but if CM is derided you may. Yes some people have run redlights and disobeyed traffic laws. But since when do you get handcuffed and sent to jail for traffic infractions? Can the NYPD arrest drivers who drive in a procession?
Being an unofficial ride Critical Mass has become many things to many people but Critical Mass is foremost a celebration, not a protest. If you believe we should have the right to ride our bikes then you have to believe in CM.
In Texas, the prohibition on riding more than two abreast became effective 1 Sept 2001. I believe this law was a direct response to CM activities.
vincenzosi
11-14-04, 08:24 PM
If you believe we should have the right to ride our bikes then you have to believe in CM.
This is why the CM zealots crack me up. Just a hint: Bikes have been around much longer than CM, and will be here long after loops in intersections, Che shirts, and running over Bush effigies becomes less trendy.
Being an unofficial ride Critical Mass has become many things to many people but Critical Mass is foremost a celebration, not a protest. If you believe we should have the right to ride our bikes then you have to believe in CM.
I believe we should have that right, and riling up people in 2000 pound cars and then asking them to share the street is not the answer.
I promise, next time I ride CM I will make it clear that I am in no way fighting for your rights or speaking for you.
I love how you guys can't seem to make up your mind weather CM is a protest or a celebration or both or neither. I'll keep my right to cycle in a more productive fashion. While you guys do your loops in traffic, I'll call my representative. While you run over effigies, I'll write the DOT. And while you're "sharing the road" by jamming traffic just to prove there's a lot of you, I'll be donating to organizations that actually do make a difference in making cycling safe for people.
You do things your way, I'll do them mine, and that's the last I'll say in this thread.
This is why the CM zealots crack me up. Just a hint: Bikes have been around much longer than CM, and will be here long after loops in intersections, Che shirts, and running over Bush effigies becomes less trendy.
I believe we should have that right, and riling up people in 2000 pound cars and then asking them to share the street is not the answer.
I love how you guys can't seem to make up your mind weather CM is a protest or a celebration or both or neither. I'll keep my right to cycle in a more productive fashion. While you guys do your loops in traffic, I'll call my representative. While you run over effigies, I'll write the DOT. And while you're "sharing the road" by jamming traffic just to prove there's a lot of you, I'll be donating to organizations that actually do make a difference in making cycling safe for people.
You do things your way, I'll do them mine, and that's the last I'll say in this thread.
You make a lot of assumptions sir.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem or No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary, i.e., the fewer assumptions an explanation of a phenomenon depends on, the better the explanation.
Take a look at my avatar friend, that is a share the road license plate. But perhaps you don't know what an str plate is so let me fill you in. The annual funds from these plates funds are divided equally between Bike Florida, Inc. and Florida Bicycle Association, Inc. So far the funds have amounted to $408,615.00 since 1999 and those proceeds have gone into education and awareness programs for bicycle safety and motorist safety, with emphasis on sharing the roadway by all users; training, workshops, educational materials, and media events; and the promotion of safe bicycling. And yes I support these groups.
I am also a founding member of my counties own upstart cycling advocacy program. We are just starting but we already have bike workshops scheduled and have a free children's bike program blooming. We've also been in talks with bicycle and pedestrian program coordinator for the LC Health Dept. who's also a chair the bike and advisory committee. We also have a team riding in the Everyone Rides charity event whose proceeds go towards getting needy foster kids bikes. And it doesn't end there. So you see sir not only do I donate to the organizations that do make a difference I'm a member of such an organization. And I ride in Critical Mass and enjoy it. We ride single file and obey the law. We get smiles and we also get honks. We don't rile up drivers nor do we run over effigies. So don't make assumptions about me and don't make assumptions about what the rest of the countries CM's are about. And get off your high horse while you are at it.
operator
11-14-04, 09:56 PM
Wow larue is full of contradictions. Just because your specific CM rides single file and obeys the law doesn't mean they ALL do.
What exactly does an str plate have to do with CM's, their purpose or how they are carried out? Same goes for your non-sensical blabbing about funds resulting from selling said plates and being a member of such and so organization.
Half your post has nothing to do with CM's. This includes your quotation at the beginning of the post and subsequent condescending, I-am-better-than-you, look-what-I-have-done attitude Don't forget to get off your high horse while you're at it.
Roughstuff
11-14-04, 10:03 PM
.....
You do things your way, I'll do them mine, and that's the last I'll say in this thread.
I agree with the vast majority of your sentiments, Vince. Decades before critical mass 'discovered' they could be the equivalent of 2 wheeled SUVs, cyclists were out riding in town and country, courteously sharing the road, setting a good example by our behavior, environmental concerns, community involvement, respect for one another and the locals, etc. So I agree with you 99%.
the 1% comes from the fact that there is a time and place for everything. From what I read ( i would never live in a city..) bicycles sure have their damn fair share of abuse trying to ride in cities. To me the problem is the city--not the bicycle---but given that some folks like to live in cities, and that cities have a lower level of courtesy and threshold of anger, sometimes I think ya gotta get in someones face to get them out of YOUR face. So I disagree with CMs tactics in the vast majority of cases, but not all.
Like most earthy/crunchy groups, what has happened to CM is that a few bad apples have grabbed control of the organization. The rest, all hung up on not exercising authority, can't do anything about it.
roughstuff
I believe we should have that right, and riling up people in 2000 pound cars and then asking them to share the street is not the answer.
If you want to keep playing "mother may I" with cagers and politicians, feel free. I'll keep playing in traffic. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.
I love how you guys can't seem to make up your mind weather CM is a protest or a celebration or both or neither.
I know exactly why I ride CM... I was simply offering to make clear my absolute disinterest in your rights at the next one I ride. should I go ahead with this? I was going to make a tshirt or print up flyers, but if it doesn't matter to you I'll hold off on it.;)
(And why does it have to be one, or the other, or the other? Why the obsessive need of some (and I include the Mayor and Commissioner Kelly in this number) to know exactly what, who, where and when CM "is?" There's a discomfort with unpredictability here... CM could easily go on virtually unhindered if someone would step up to say "I, Laika, am the president of CM. We have a membership of eleventy-twelve cyclists, dues are a buck three-eighty quadrennially, and our predetermined routes are determined by black box voting among members in good standing and will be provided, with detailed maps and timetables, two weeks prior to every ride." Of course, then it wouldn't be CM, it'd be the 5BBC or Kissena, which are fine for what they are and are full of cyclists far more accomplished and experienced and just plain better than I, but if I wanted to go on club rides or race, I'd go on club rides or race. Personally, I like CM, and I don't really care that the Mayor and Commissioner Kelly have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept.)
I'll keep my right to cycle in a more productive fashion. While you guys do your loops in traffic, I'll call my representative. While you run over effigies, I'll write the DOT. And while you're "sharing the road" by jamming traffic just to prove there's a lot of you, I'll be donating to organizations that actually do make a difference in making cycling safe for people.
[First off, given that this conversation is still both cordial and mariginally more about cycling activism and than politics, I will bite my tongue as regard the efficacy of working within a system which leads to the sorts of things that make me go for long rides alone to work off my anger and frustration at the state of the world. I admire your faith in the system and wish I shared it, and I will leave it at that.]
This is some sort of logical fallacy which you're indulging in here. Do you think that riding CM precludes the types and sorts of behaviors and activism you practice? I'll offer you a hint; they don't. I'll offer you another: TA isn't the only game in town for cycling activism, just the most conservative one tactically. It's a safe and respectable choice, and I admire the work they do. So thanks for that, honestly. TA has accomplished a lot, and are a voice for a certain sort of completely valid cyclist activism.
You do things your way, I'll do them mine, and that's the last I'll say in this thread.
Right on. Keep rolling, and I'll do the same. That's all that matters, after all.
Wow larue is full of contradictions. Just because your specific CM rides single file and obeys the law doesn't mean they ALL do.
What exactly does an str plate have to do with CM's, their purpose or how they are carried out? Same goes for your non-sensical blabbing about funds resulting from selling said plates and being a member of such and so organization.
Half your post has nothing to do with CM's. This includes your quotation at the beginning of the post and subsequent condescending, I-am-better-than-you, look-what-I-have-done attitude Don't forget to get off your high horse while you're at it.
Why don't you try reading the post I replying to eh?
The man stated that none of us do any good and he spends his time giving to organizations that do good blah blah blah.
There are zero contradictions in my post, maybe you'd like to point out some? What exactly do you consider non-sensical?
If you want to post replies then perhaps you should read the thread you are replying to.
Wow larue is full of contradictions. Just because your specific CM rides single file and obeys the law doesn't mean they ALL do.
What exactly does an str plate have to do with CM's, their purpose or how they are carried out? Same goes for your non-sensical blabbing about funds resulting from selling said plates and being a member of such and so organization.
Half your post has nothing to do with CM's. This includes your quotation at the beginning of the post and subsequent condescending, I-am-better-than-you, look-what-I-have-done attitude Don't forget to get off your high horse while you're at it.
Having been involved in this conversation from very nearly the beginning, I can only assume you're flaming, as I find it hard to believe someone could make a post like yours without attempting to be deliberately unpleasant and provocative. If, however, you were serious in your comments, I'd like to suggest you a) read all the posts in the thread before you post, as to most of us, the share the road post addressed directly a point being made about a supposed incompatability between traditional activism and CM and b) confine your ad hominem attacks to real life, where those upon whom you visit your impolite and inaccurate abuse upon have a chance to slap you with a glove, bop you in the snoot or challenge you to tall-bike jousting, depending on the local custom.
Best,
Laika
Thanks Laika.
Something I don't understand here is why does this have to be an argument? When did people lose the ability to agree to disagree? I don't have to see eye to eye with you but that doesn't mean we have to be enemies.
It seems like everytime the Critical Mass debate shows up in a thread we hear the same old arguments pro & con over and over again. What gets me is that people don't realize that Critical Mass is just one example of an organization (or non-organization) lobbying for biker's rights. Other groups exist that take a different approach towards making their voices heard. Critical Mass gets a lot of press because of the spectacle of it all and its unique non-structured structure.
This is true of many other causes. Doing a cursory internet search I found 50 plus animal rights organizations in the USA and while PETA is certainely the most famous other organizations have had huge successes and exposure as well. Most people don't fit in neat little boxes of agree & disagree. I personally have attended many CM's in my hometown Chicago, and one in SFO. I'm also a member of the Chicago Bike Federation and the local rails to trails club in the suburbs. I've done organized centuries & tours and participated in messenger-style alleycat races. I don't believe that any of these groups can define my stance on bikes in chicago, nor do I believe that they work against each other.
If you disagree with Critical Mass then don't participate, heck start your own club & print up your own "I'm no Critical Mass-hole" stickers, but remember you have lots of choices for how your voice can be heard and to respect other's voices as well.
jeff
KrisPistofferson
11-14-04, 10:45 PM
I' ve travelled extensively as a hitchiker, long haul trucker(not the bike!) and construction worker. I have noticed that cities with a strong CM presence are way more bicycle friendly. Those that feel they don't need activist groups to speak up for them I feel take for granted what is being done for them. Where i live, in the South, labor unions are a dirty word, and I've also noticed on my travels that those states that have higher union activity get paid and treated MUCH better, whether you're in the union or not.
Ther really are two main groups of adult cyclists in the U.S. You've got the guy who puts a 20 ounce bike on top of his car and drives 50 miles to the country to ride. Then you've got the commuter who gets everywhere by his 80's Schwinn or singlespeed, and this is really who CM appeals to.
HCHENNINGS
11-14-04, 11:33 PM
bicycle with care, integrity, respect, and a smile works the best for me. i think and hope i have made friends with the drivers and pedestrians i come in contact with. my drivers mostly share the road with bicycles. the road has plenty of room for everybody. regards, henry :)
nycm'er
11-15-04, 12:20 AM
I read the entire thread, and I want to make two points. I was the other, other rider Friday in the rain in Bklyn. I was the one the brass pulled aside and said 'We are going to talk to you." At this point one of us was being cuffed with zipties, and all we had done was ride about 20 feet without our lights on. I was pretty sure at this point they were going to arrest us all. (all being three, mind you, has anyone forgotten that point yet?) Let me quickly set the stage, it was in the 40's raining steadily and blowing about 20-25 mph. I was no longer warm from my ride up the Slope on Flatbush, classic miserable situation. The second in command asked me twice what we were going to do, not to worry about the arrested rider he was being arrested, they were taking care of him. A man who I would come to find out was the Borough Commander asks me the same question, backing it up with "We'll give you the park" This guy is the Chief of police in Brooklyn, the beat cops so tough with me a moment before are in awe of this guy, I am too, Brooklyn is one of the largest cities in the US without its affiliation with NYC. And now he has offered us the use of Prospect Park, something I had taken for granted. So consider the fleet of cars, the army of cops, I felt pretty small and pretty intimidated. The "Good Cop" treatment by the top Brooklyn cop is making the words "Let the other guy out of the van and I will go home" nearly cross my lips without thinking. I want to pose this question to the "armchair" naysayers who will have you work the channels only to get these things done, who have such implicit faith in government, especially this Government's administration; What if this whole show of force was about something near to you? About your kids school? Your full and unmonitered access to the internet? What if police in your neighborhood came out in overwhelming force to try to dissuade you from posting you free thoughts on an internet thread forum? I think it is relevent and not over the top, especially in a country that apparently willing to give up some civil liberities to increase 'security'.
karmical
11-15-04, 12:33 AM
In Texas on thing that CM has done for cycling is to cause a law to be enacted restricting cyclists to no more than two abreast on public roads.
Thanks, CM.
they ever get around to taking that law off the books which says its ok to shoot horse thieves in texas?
just curious...
i love the hell out of CM, and see more people that are riding talking with motorists, telling the police "thank you for putting up with us,......hell last CM i gave out passes to the nightclub i work out as a means to say hey its a drag being stuck...but wtf being upset about it isn't going to change a thing...
what i like most are the tourists' reactions to seeing that many bikes and riders together....i have had some very interesting conversations about freedom, and what it means to live in a country where you can express it in this kind of a way...
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