Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Anticipation is Raleigh Sojourn

I had no idea cycling was such an addictive hobby and I've just begun. I've been trying to lose weight (365lbs this past Christmas). The last time that I lost weight I was doing 30 minutes of cardio on a stationary bike at the gym 3 times a week. Now I work in the office and don't want to be inside to get my cardio so I decided to get into cycling. I rode bicycles like a mad-man when I was in my early teens but quit shortly after getting my first car.

Well I needed a bike and the wife's old Schwinn Collegiate 3 needed new tires. I found tires for my wife's bike and found me a '83 Schwinn World Tourist on Craigslist (Shimano FFS with friction shifters). I was sick of looking for a new bike that I couldn't afford. So I paid too much for the Tourist but I was able to finally start riding a couple of weeks ago. Last Thursday I did five miles with an average speed of 12.7mph and I was excited as all get out. I live in the Pine Mountain foothills in West Central Georgia and I've been surprised by the amount of effort it takes to keep speed going uphill.

As I continued to read about gearing last week, because of these foothills, I decided Saturday to count the teeth on my chainring. When I shined the flashlight on the large chainring my joy turned to gut-churning disgust. I discovered that at least 6 teeth have broken off the large chainring (BTW 53/39 - 28/14). I called the LBS only to find out that they were on Vacation so I was left to stew with making a really stupid Craigslist purchase. I still swear I checked the chainring and didn't see the broke teeth.

Finally on Monday my decision was made. I headed to the bike shop but they were still on vacation and wouldn't open until 2pm. So I headed to secure some financing for a NEW bike, specifically a 2011 Raleigh Sojourn. I procured the financing and called the bike shop only to learn that they couldn't get a 2011 Raleigh Sojourn cause July is the end of the 2011 model year!!! I even called Raleigh in WA state today and they told me there were no 2011 Sojourns!!! Anyway, I'd prefer to support my LBS since they were so good to me when I had to buy the wife a bike cause her old Schwinn needed gratuitous repair other than just tires and tubes.

So, I anxiously await the 2012 Sojourn and pray that the components don't radically change and that the financing doesn't get re-purposed before September. Raleigh would only tell me that the color is going to change on the 2012 but not what components would be included. Oh.... anticipation is Raleigh making me wait :twitchy:

Off to cut the grass rather than ride today :( but Thursday me and the Schwinn have a date with the road whether or not she has missing teeth.

BTW, after you do 29m.p.h. on a '83 Scwinn, the price for a Raleigh Sojourn doesn't seem to be too much. I want new fresh steel between me and the asphalt.

Happy Trails or Trials whichever may be the case :)

If you are missing teeth on the chainring, your chain and freewheel are probably shot too. None of them individually are expensive, but it is going to cost a little bit to change them all. You may have to search for the freewheel online though, and it will be a ***** to change even if you have the tool. Good choice on the Raliegh though, and try to keep motivated while you wait for it.

You may have to search for the freewheel online though, and it will be a ***** to change even if you have the tool.

The trick to removing a freewheel (once you've found the right freewheel remover tool) is to use a bench vise to clamp the flats of the tool, then use the large diameter of the wheel for leverage in loosening it. It's been a few years (quite a few, actually) since I've done it, but from the dim recesses of my memory, the steps are something like this:

1 - remove the QR skewer nut from the skewer, and remove the skewer from the hub.
2 - seat the freewheel remover on the freewheel - it "mates" through a series of prongs or splines that fit in grooves on the freewheel
3 - reinstall the QR skewer and nut, tightening it only enough to hold the remover in place
4 - turn the wheel over so the freewheel is facing the floor, and insert it in your bench vise so the flats of the remover are clamped in the vise's jaws. Tighten the vise.
5 - Grab the wheel/tire and muscle it loose. Stop as soon as it releases, since the QR will be in the way of complete removal.
6 - remove the wheel from the vise, remove QR again, and the freewheel will screw off the hub.

I am absorbing the advice on how to tear down the Shimano Front Freewheel System. Although the World Tourist is a little tall at 60cm, I really like the Giant made frame. So once I get the 2012 Raleigh Sojourn, my plan is to tear down the Schwinn and learn how to rebuild it. My conundrum is whether to try and preserve the FFS or go with a modern rear freewheel system on the Schwinn. I admit that I really like the convenience of shifting while coasting ;)

I am able to climb the hills around here with the Schwinn's 39/28 low gear so I am wondering if it is feasible to find a gear larger than 53 for some real monster mashing :eek:

Oh how the mind wanders when the body can't ride.

I had no idea cycling was such an addictive hobby and I've just begun. I've been trying to lose weight (365lbs this past Christmas). The last time that I lost weight I was doing 30 minutes of cardio on a stationary bike at the gym 3 times a week. Now I work in the office and don't want to be inside to get my cardio so I decided to get into cycling. I rode bicycles like a mad-man when I was in my early teens but quit shortly after getting my first car.

Well I needed a bike and the wife's old Schwinn Collegiate 3 needed new tires. I found tires for my wife's bike and found me a '83 Schwinn World Tourist on Craigslist (Shimano FFS with friction shifters). I was sick of looking for a new bike that I couldn't afford. So I paid too much for the Tourist but I was able to finally start riding a couple of weeks ago. Last Thursday I did five miles with an average speed of 12.7mph and I was excited as all get out. I live in the Pine Mountain foothills in West Central Georgia and I've been surprised by the amount of effort it takes to keep speed going uphill.

As I continued to read about gearing last week, because of these foothills, I decided Saturday to count the teeth on my chainring. When I shined the flashlight on the large chainring my joy turned to gut-churning disgust. I discovered that at least 6 teeth have broken off the large chainring (BTW 53/39 - 28/14). I called the LBS only to find out that they were on Vacation so I was left to stew with making a really stupid Craigslist purchase. I still swear I checked the chainring and didn't see the broke teeth.

Finally on Monday my decision was made. I headed to the bike shop but they were still on vacation and wouldn't open until 2pm. So I headed to secure some financing for a NEW bike, specifically a 2011 Raleigh Sojourn. I procured the financing and called the bike shop only to learn that they couldn't get a 2011 Raleigh Sojourn cause July is the end of the 2011 model year!!! I even called Raleigh in WA state today and they told me there were no 2011 Sojourns!!! Anyway, I'd prefer to support my LBS since they were so good to me when I had to buy the wife a bike cause her old Schwinn needed gratuitous repair other than just tires and tubes.

So, I anxiously await the 2012 Sojourn and pray that the components don't radically change and that the financing doesn't get re-purposed before September. Raleigh would only tell me that the color is going to change on the 2012 but not what components would be included. Oh.... anticipation is Raleigh making me wait :twitchy:

Off to cut the grass rather than ride today :( but Thursday me and the Schwinn have a date with the road whether or not she has missing teeth.

BTW, after you do 29m.p.h. on a '83 Scwinn, the price for a Raleigh Sojourn doesn't seem to be too much. I want new fresh steel between me and the asphalt.

Happy Trails or Trials whichever may be the case :)

Not to rain on your parade but... there may be no 2012 Sojourn.

Previous reports indicated that the 2011 models were just leftover stock from 2010, and that there would be no 2012 production run. Which is a shame - I LOVE my 2009 Sojourn. It's a great touring bike.

Raleigh has changed ownership so many times lately they may not know what 2012 models will be made.

I think that Raleigh is soooo cool! I considered one for myself, but ended up buying a VERY similar bike with a steel frame (I wanted steel). If you have a local REI near by, look into a Novara Randonee!
http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/node/80261

Not to rain on your parade but... there may be no 2012 Sojourn.

Previous reports indicated that the 2011 models were just leftover stock from 2010, and that there would be no 2012 production run. Which is a shame - I LOVE my 2009 Sojourn. It's a great touring bike.

That's what both Raleigh and my LBS told me when I was ordering my Sojourn back in February. They were selling last year's stock out and that was it. When I took delivery on mine in March they told me there were only 7 of the 55cm Sojourns left in their warehouse and they were already sold out of the 57s. If they're telling you different colors for the 2012s then good luck buying one, hopefully they changed their minds on discontinuing them.

Not to rain on your parade but... there may be no 2012 Sojourn.

Previous reports indicated that the 2011 models were just leftover stock from 2010, and that there would be no 2012 production run. Which is a shame - I LOVE my 2009 Sojourn. It's a great touring bike.

I called Raleigh again today to find out the status of the Sojourn. According to Raleigh Sales the Sojourn was discontinued and production was stopped but Raleigh has decided to bring the Sojourn back for 2012. This first bikes will reportedly be available Christmas 2011 (this may mean September 2011 or March 2012 according to my LBS) and will be black.

Now, do I spend $300 to repair the Schwinn World Tourist or do I just buy the new Schwinn Voyageur 7 for less than $300 (if its still in stock at LBS) while I wait on the Raleigh?

Okay, 2012 Sojourn is up on the website - based on a quick glance -

Color:Tan->Brown
Frame: Reynolds 520->Reynolds 631
R Derail: Deore -> Alivio
Brakes: BB5 -> Shimano R505 - both 160mm rotors
Cassette: SRAM PG-950 -> Shimano HG30
Rims: Freedom CTX2.3 Trekking -> Freedom Ryder 23 Trekking
Handlebars: WTB Mtn Drop, 31.8 -> Avenir 200 Series 31.8 Short Drop

No pump, SKS fenders became generic fenders.

Fork looks much thinner up front

Are you set on a bike with disc brakes or this particular model?

There are lot of cool choices that are similar to the Sojourn, some with and without disc brakes. I'll let you use google to find more info on each rather than posting links, but here are a few that come to mind:

- Jamis Aurora / Aurora Elite - I had a 2008 Aurora and it was a sweet riding bike, though a little heavy like most touring bikes. Nothing I have ever had rode as smooth. The Elite is a higher spec model with a nicer frame. Jamis also makes a disc brake equipped touring bike similar to the Sojourn called the Bosanova.

- Salsa Vaya - This is somewhat similar to the Sojourn, but seems to be designed for some mild off-road riding. I test rode one thinking this might be what I wanted for my next road bike. If I had a huge garage and a pocket full of cash, I'd probably own one, but since I can really only afford one nice road bike, this just isn't light or snappy enough for my liking. If you really want to see a burly road bike, check out the Vaya's bigger brother the Salsa Fargo.

- Novara Verita - this is more of a classic style bike similar to the Raleigh Clubman or Salsa Casseroll. I really like the idea of this bike which is just a relaxed, comfy road bike. I probably would have bought this bike 4 months ago had I had the money and not had to settle for a cheapo KHS road bike like I did. It sees like a really good value for $1100 given you get a SRAM Apex groupo. If you are an REI member, you also get 10% back next year as part of your dividend and sometimes they put their Novara brand bikes on sale (usually about 15% off).

-Salsa Casseroll
-Kona ***** Inc.
-Marin Lombard (if you are interested in an alloy frame bike)
-Specialized Tricross

There is lots of cool stuff out there.

Okay, 2012 Sojourn is up on the website - based on a quick glance -

Color:Tan->Brown
Frame: Reynolds 520->Reynolds 631
R Derail: Deore -> Alivio
Brakes: BB5 -> Shimano R505 - both 160mm rotors
Cassette: SRAM PG-950 -> Shimano HG30
Rims: Freedom CTX2.3 Trekking -> Freedom Ryder 23 Trekking
Handlebars: WTB Mtn Drop, 31.8 -> Avenir 200 Series 31.8 Short Drop

No pump, SKS fenders became generic fenders.

Fork looks much thinner up front


Interesting - I have a 2009 Sojourn, and they've made some nice changes, and some not so nice ones. :-)

On the negative side, I think the original Dirt Drop bars are awesome for touring. I don't see the new "short drop" bars on the Avenir site, but I presume they're fairly generic unflared bars. On the other hand, I can't get my bike into an Amtrak bike box without removing the bars completely, so perhaps smaller bars would help in that regard. ;-)

R505 brakes: Good lord, why? They get consistently worse reviews than the BB5's, which work great on the Sojourn
Amusingly enough, the website pic still shows BB5's!

Gearing: After three years, you'd think they would have finally lowered the gearing - this is a heavy touring bike, after all.

Other components: They're definitely going for lower priced versions of already low-priced parts.

Top-tube: Bring back the steel bar protector!

Biggie: Looking at the pic, it appears that they're routing one of the cables on top of the downtube. It also appears that there are no more bottle mount braze-ons there ( though they're still on the bottom of the downtube for the third bottle, and the seat tube, obviously ). If that's the case, then that is an stupid design change of epic proportions. One accessible bottle mount on a loaded touring bike? Seriously?

Positives:

Color: I like it!
Fork: They've gone from a straight fork to a far more aesthetically pleasing curved fork. My Sojourn is already a very, very cushy ride when loaded, so I'm curious about how the new fork will change the ride quality.
Frame: Nice step up to 531. Could be why they cheapened up some of the other components, to keep a similar price point.

I did a 23 mile ride this weekend on my 2011 Schwinn Voyageur 7 and now I know even better why the Sojourn is attractive to me (avg 13.73mph). The main reason is that some of the roads I ride are in extremely poor condition and not much better than a gravel road. These are very rough country roads. However, I hit a short section of highway and the Voyageur didn't have anywhere near fat enough gearing to get me really moving. My goal is to be able to do century rides with as few stops as possible, weekend rides through the countryside ~30 miles, and commute to church (10 miles RT), and work (~40 miles RT) occassionally. If possible, I would like to get my average speed up to around 19-20mph. Not sure the engine is up for that though.

Things I like about the 2012 Sojourn.
700x35 beefy tires and rims
Wide Range on the Gearing; the 50x11 would help me get some more speed in the downhills and flats and the 30 ring would be used only when loaded or the engine was tiring out.
Fenders - I don't want Armadillo guts splashing on me
Rear rack for commuting purposes
I think disc brakes cause I don't trust the brakes on any of my current bikes (The Voyageur and '83 World Tourist).
I hear steel is more comfortable but I can't yet tell a difference between the WT and the Voyageur.
Price range ~$1000.00

I'll check out the other bikes mentioned as it will be sometime around March 2012 before I have the financing to pull the trigger. I am open to other suggestions and have looked at others but keep coming back to the Sojourn.

You have plenty of time to decide and the current availability problem with the Sojourn isn't much of a concern if you are still more than 6 months out.

Do try and ride as many bikes as possible, including those with other frame materials. The difference between steel and aluminum may be more subtle than you think. The manner in which the frame is built will dictate the ride qualities as will the tires that are on the bike.

Most steel bikes seem to fall into the touring or randonneuring category which means that many will have 700x28 c tires or even bigger. I find that tire size makes a bigger difference than frame material in some cases. A cheap and/or poorly designed steel frame can ride worse than a nice alloy frame. When shopping for a new bike, I rode a Giant Defy (alloy frame/carbon fork) back to back with a Jamis Satellite (Reynolds 520 cromo frame/cromo fork) and the Giant rode better. These were on the each same road with the same size tires ( albeit different brands).

I ended up buying a Specialized Secteur Comp which has and alloy frame with carbon seat stays and carbon fork. The ride isn't as smooth as my old KHS steel bike which had 32c tires, bit those tires were doing a lot to dampen the bumps. I put some 25c tires on the KHS and was shocked how much the ride quality was degraded.

I would be willing to bet the 2012 Sojourn will be a bit smoother than the 2011 thanks to the higher quality 531 tubeset. That stuff has been around forever because it is good stuff. 520 is a newer product designed to fit a lower price point. There is nothing wrong with 520, but it isn't any better than a generic butted cromo tubeset. It is more for marketing so a bike company can boast Reynolds steel.

You have plenty of time to decide and the current availability problem with the Sojourn isn't much of a concern if you are still more than 6 months out.

Do try and ride as many bikes as possible, including those with other frame materials. The difference between steel and aluminum may be more subtle than you think. The manner in which the frame is built will dictate the ride qualities as will the tires that are on the bike.

Most steel bikes seem to fall into the touring or randonneuring category which means that many will have 700x28 c tires or even bigger. I find that tire size makes a bigger difference than frame material in some cases. A cheap and/or poorly designed steel frame can ride worse than a nice alloy frame. When shopping for a new bike, I rode a Giant Defy (alloy frame/carbon fork) back to back with a Jamis Satellite (Reynolds 520 cromo frame/cromo fork) and the Giant rode better. These were on the each same road with the same size tires ( albeit different brands).

I ended up buying a Specialized Secteur Comp which has and alloy frame with carbon seat stays and carbon fork. The ride isn't as smooth as my old KHS steel bike which had 32c tires, bit those tires were doing a lot to dampen the bumps. I put some 25c tires on the KHS and was shocked how much the ride quality was degraded.

I would be willing to bet the 2012 Sojourn will be a bit smoother than the 2011 thanks to the higher quality 531 tubeset. That stuff has been around forever because it is good stuff. 520 is a newer product designed to fit a lower price point. There is nothing wrong with 520, but it isn't any better than a generic butted cromo tubeset. It is more for marketing so a bike company can boast Reynolds steel.


I've got both the 2009 Sojourn with the stock 700x35's and a 2010 Secteur Apex with the stock 700x25's.

The ride difference between the two of them on flat pavement is noticeable, but not significant. I've outfitted the Secteur as my road/light touring bike.

On rough pavement, the difference between the two is huge. The Sojourn just glides over gravel/stone dust/broken pavement/dirt with nary a worry, even when very heavily loaded for touring. It's very, very predictable no matter what the conditions or the load. On the other hand, the Secteur gets very, very squirrily, even with just a light load under those same conditions. Some of that is from the tires, but it's really a twitchier bike in general ( though again, not nearly so much as a race bike ).

They're both good bikes, and I'm pleased with them. But they do excel at different tasks, so any purchaser would need to consider whether the extra weight/etc. of the Sojourn is really worth the difference in how they'll be using or riding it.

I've got both the 2009 Sojourn with the stock 700x35's and a 2010 Secteur Apex with the stock 700x25's.

The ride difference between the two of them on flat pavement is noticeable, but not significant. I've outfitted the Secteur as my road/light touring bike.

On rough pavement, the difference between the two is huge. The Sojourn just glides over gravel/stone dust/broken pavement/dirt with nary a worry, even when very heavily loaded for touring. It's very, very predictable no matter what the conditions or the load. On the other hand, the Secteur gets very, very squirrily, even with just a light load under those same conditions. Some of that is from the tires, but it's really a twitchier bike in general ( though again, not nearly so much as a race bike ).

They're both good bikes, and I'm pleased with them. But they do excel at different tasks, so any purchaser would need to consider whether the extra weight/etc. of the Sojourn is really worth the difference in how they'll be using or riding it.

The Secteur is a lot quicker handling bike due to the frame geometry. I fully expect it to be twitchier. On my ride Saturday, I rode down a gravel road and was pleased in general. It was a bit sketchy in deep gravel, but I think some more aggressive tires like Panaracer Paselas or vittoria randos would cure much of that. No doubt will the Sojourn ride smoother, but I thing it has more to do with the frame geometry and tires than the type of material in the frame.

But they do excel at different tasks, so any purchaser would need to consider whether the extra weight/etc. of the Sojourn is really worth the difference in how they'll be using or riding it.

This is my main concern with the Sojourn... the extra weight. While I may occasionally ride with some cargo it is obvious that unless I find a group of people in my rural area interested in touring, that I will not do much fully loaded touring. However, I do want a bike that is stable on rough roads and can be relatively fast on smooth roads. I am thinking that the Sojourn fits that description but maybe there are other options more suitable for my style of riding?

I am interested in getting fit, enjoying the scenery, but still moving along rough and smooth roads at a good pace. Maybe I should just invest in a rear rack and a triple crank for the Schwinn Voyageur and look for a dedicated road bike for fast riding?

The anticipation makes the fulfillment sweeter.

This is my main concern with the Sojourn... the extra weight. While I may occasionally ride with some cargo it is obvious that unless I find a group of people in my rural area interested in touring, that I will not do much fully loaded touring. However, I do want a bike that is stable on rough roads and can be relatively fast on smooth roads. I am thinking that the Sojourn fits that description but maybe there are other options more suitable for my style of riding?

I am interested in getting fit, enjoying the scenery, but still moving along rough and smooth roads at a good pace. Maybe I should just invest in a rear rack and a triple crank for the Schwinn Voyageur and look for a dedicated road bike for fast riding?

The anticipation makes the fulfillment sweeter.


You might want to check out a cyclocross bike fitted out with a triple if you anticipate going between smooth pavement and rougher roads or terrain. The Sojourn's forte' really is loaded touring; If you're not going to be doing that, I suspect you'll be happier with another bike. If you had asked me if the Sojourn was a good general purpose bike when I bought it, I would have wholeheartedly agreed. But now that I've had some experience with a more road-oriented bike ( even one as "relaxed" as the Secteur ), I'd suggest not having it as your sole all-rounder.

if i were you, I would look for another steel frame and stop waiting on the raleigh. Bikes direct has a good inexpensive steel touring bike and there are other companies that sell frame only that you could build up. specifically buy a bikes direct bike for the group and put it on the steel frame of your choosing then sell off the bikes direct frame to recoup some costs. it could be a really good option for you.

Not sure why but this bike seems very interesting to me: 2012 CANNONDALE SYNAPSE ALLOY 5 105. I know that it is not steel but I hear tell that Cannondale really has the aluminium thing figured out and my newest bike is Aluminium and comfortable.

The one thing that I am really unsure of is the gearing. The thing that I really like about the Sojourn is 30/39/50 Chainring and 11-34 Cassette. However, I really don't want to spend >$1000.00 for a bike and then start changing out the crankset. I'm not sure of the setup for Synapse though but I think it is 34/50 -- 11/28. I could live with that.

I suppose I am waiting for someone to reveal the 2012 Cannondale specs... I googled and couldn't find any specifics. Back to.. anticipation is making me wait...

There are a lot of bikes out there now that are coming with SRAM Apex groupos which give you a 50/34 compact crank and an 11-32 cassette. Its kind of the best of both worlds between a triple's gear range and the ease of use of a double.

That said, my bike has a compact crank with the 11-28 cassette like the C'dale and is more than adequate. My old bike only had a 12-26 and I never needed a lower gear. For light loads, that should be all you need, but the option is out there for wider range gearing in a double chainring format. My last bike had triple (30/42/52) and 11-32 mountain bike cassette and I never needed the granny ring. That bike would climb anything, even with the overweight motor pushing it along, but it was overkill. A 12-25 cassette would have been more appropriate, but having that 11-32 allowed me to only need the middle and large ring. That is the idea behind SRAM Apex using the 11-32 cassette. Your low gear is 34/32 which is actually lower than the 30/25 gear on a conventional triple. The high gear of 50/11 is very close to a 52/12 on a triple. The gearing on a compact double with 11-28 cassette is actually closer to that of a conventional triple.

The low gear on the Raleigh is literally meant for spinning a heavy load up the side of a mountain at a pace equal to or slower than walking. Ask yourself if you are really going to be doing that. I think a bike that you are able to use all of the gear ratios more regularly would be more enjoyable to ride, but then again, you will never have a shortage of gear ratios from which to choose. If I were in the market for that type of bike, I'd look at the Salsa Vaya which is SRAM Apex with disc brakes and lots of room for big tires and fenders. I've always liked Salsa bikes.

I looked the Salsa Vaya and it has 3 negatives for me; the orange color (shudders), nearest dealer is almost 200 miles away, and 700x42 tires. Those tires just sound huge to me even though I am riding on 700x38's. Don't get me wrong, the Salsa sounds like a really nice bike.

I've also looked up the Jarvis Aurora and while it is a nice bike the dealers for Jarvis are few and far between in my area.

My LBS carries Schwinn, Raleigh, and C'dale (thanks for the hint to abbreviate).

So far my top 3 bikes are:
Raleigh Sojourn
Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105 - has 700x25 wheels; will these be stable on rough country roads? I wonder if I can put wider tubes and tires on them? I believe this will be the fastest of all three bikes and I am still dropping weight and may not be a clyde by the time I buy it.
Raleigh Clubman - I really like the color scheme

Since finances are precluding as much as waiting for the 2012 models, I must still wait in anticipation while riding my Schwinns. I need to find a way to ride each of these bikes on a familiar route. Yet, I don't think the LBS wants to stock each one of these then I may have not chance to ride before hand.

I am still in the research phase... so any suggestions I am still researching.

I love the orange on the Salsa, but to each their own. The 2010 models were a nice, muted metallic brown, but I doubt there are any of those left. Who knows what color the 2012 model will be. I am with you on the tire size. If I was getting a Vaya, I'd put some 32c touring tires on. I have found that to be the best compromise between speed/rolling resistance and stability on dirt or rough pavement.

I am running 28c Conti Ultra Gator Skins on my Secteur and so far love them. They handle dirt and a little gravel pretty decent and soak up rough pavement well. I was looking at the Synapse and think it will fit them. It might be.a squeeze getting past the brake pads. My Shimano 105 calipers seem to open up a little more than the brakes on the C'dale.

I love the orange on the Salsa, but to each their own. The 2010 models were a nice, muted metallic brown, but I doubt there are any of those left. Who knows what color the 2012 model will be. I am with you on the tire size. If I was getting a Vaya, I'd put some 32c touring tires on. I have found that to be the best compromise between speed/rolling resistance and stability on dirt or rough pavement.

I am running 28c Conti Ultra Gator Skins on my Secteur and so far love them. They handle dirt and a little gravel pretty decent and soak up rough pavement well. I was looking at the Synapse and think it will fit them. It might be.a squeeze getting past the brake pads. My Shimano 105 calipers seem to open up a little more than the brakes on the C'dale.

Interesting - I had tried to install some 28's on my Secteur Apex, and they didn't fit. Don't recall offhand what brand, though.

I looked the Salsa Vaya and it has 3 negatives for me; the orange color (shudders), nearest dealer is almost 200 miles away, and 700x42 tires. Those tires just sound huge to me even though I am riding on 700x38's. Don't get me wrong, the Salsa sounds like a really nice bike.

I've also looked up the Jarvis Aurora and while it is a nice bike the dealers for Jarvis are few and far between in my area.

My LBS carries Schwinn, Raleigh, and C'dale (thanks for the hint to abbreviate).

So far my top 3 bikes are:
Raleigh Sojourn
Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105 - has 700x25 wheels; will these be stable on rough country roads? I wonder if I can put wider tubes and tires on them? I believe this will be the fastest of all three bikes and I am still dropping weight and may not be a clyde by the time I buy it.
Raleigh Clubman - I really like the color scheme

Since finances are precluding as much as waiting for the 2012 models, I must still wait in anticipation while riding my Schwinns. I need to find a way to ride each of these bikes on a familiar route. Yet, I don't think the LBS wants to stock each one of these then I may have not chance to ride before hand.

I am still in the research phase... so any suggestions I am still researching.
I'm confused, are you actually planning to do loaded tours or are you just looking for a bike to ride? why not the salsa casserole? cromoly, nice color (blue) and a 26/36/48 crankset? fwiw, I think the orange color on the vaya is kinda dope. it's a muted orange not crazy bright look at me orange. Also, why would you let tire size be a deciding factor? buy another set of tires duh! if you don't like 42's, put on 38's or 35s. I have some nashbar streetwise 700x35 tires on my commuter and they ride GREAT. I'm also nobody has mentioned the surly LHT yet?

Interesting - I had tried to install some 28's on my Secteur Apex, and they didn't fit. Don't recall offhand what brand, though.

I'll take some pics to show the clearance on mine. Interestingly, the stock 25c tires measured 27mm wide per my digital caliper gauge. The Gators are exactly 28mm, so not undersized. Perhaps what you tried were slightly oversized. Did they rub on the caliper?

For what my opinion is worth (maybe not too much), I just got back from test-riding a Sojourn. It's my size, it's discounted 50 per cent, but I decided to let someone else reap the bargain. I have to agree with mulveyr. I think it would be fine for loaded touring, not so great as an all-rounder. My aluminum drop-bar hybrid is quicker and more fun to ride, and after riding the same route back to back, I don't see any comfort advantage to the steel-framed Sojourn. They felt about the same over the bumps. And I don't know whether I would live long enough to break in that rock-hard Brooks saddle. Still, it's a beautiful looking bike, and someone who needs a pure tourer is going to get a great bargain at my LBS.

For what my opinion is worth (maybe not too much), I just got back from test-riding a Sojourn. It's my size, it's discounted 50 per cent, but I decided to let someone else reap the bargain. I have to agree with mulveyr. I think it would be fine for loaded touring, not so great as an all-rounder. My aluminum drop-bar hybrid is quicker and more fun to ride, and after riding the same route back to back, I don't see any comfort advantage to the steel-framed Sojourn. They felt about the same over the bumps. And I don't know whether I would live long enough to break in that rock-hard Brooks saddle. Still, it's a beautiful looking bike, and someone who needs a pure tourer is going to get a great bargain at my LBS.
what size is it? if it's the op's size you could buy it for him and ship it to him!

Marmot, thanks for the current review of the Sojourn. Unfortunately, shipping costs from Ottawa, Canada to Middle Georgia would eat up that 50% off price :O

motobecane69... I am glad that I posted this thread about the Sojourn because the more I hear from fellow Clydes the more I realize that I may not be a "touring" cyclist. It sounds like the Sojourn is a dedicated touring bike for someone who is going to load up and trek for days at a time. While I like the idea of doing that, the wife doesn't and will not ever ride for 8 hours a day and then camp in a pup tent. So, I believe that the best description of bike for which I am looking is a Commuter bike.

I want a bike that will handle decent width tires--not sure if 25 is wide enough--, a bike that has or I can add fenders, and a bike where I can mount at least 2 water bottles and a rear rack with panniers but I don't think I'll ever need front racks. I would also like to be able to do century rides on the bike, commute back and forth to work, trek through country roads, and one day when the engine is well tuned get into the ~20mph avg speed bracket.

Currently on the '11 Voyageur 7 I am averaging 13.5mph and about the same on the '83 World Tourist even though it has a fatter gear. My ride on the '83 Tourist worried me yesterday because I felt like I was pushing the bike on the whole 10 mile ride. I did 14 miles tonight on the '11 Voyageur 7 and felt like I was flying except for the hill climbs. However, I was able to stand and climb some of the hills tonight and when I couldn't finish the hill standing I could quickly get to the 40x34 gear and spin the rest of the way.

I am really curious to know how well the C'dale Synapse 105 will fit into my criteria. The Raleigh Clubman isn't far behind but I am a little worried that I might get that pushing feeling on it that I have with the '83 World Tourist. I gotta plan a trip to the LBS and bug'em.

PS-- I drive the family crazy with my decision making process but when I plan on shelling out $1000+ for a hobby I want the maximum bang for the buck.

I'll take some pics to show the clearance on mine. Interestingly, the stock 25c tires measured 27mm wide per my digital caliper gauge. The Gators are exactly 28mm, so not undersized. Perhaps what you tried were slightly oversized. Did they rub on the caliper?

Yep, the ones I tried were rubbing on the top of the caliper. Heck, I probably could have shaved a few hundredths of a MM off the tire or caliper and it would have fit. ;-)

I am really curious to know how well the C'dale Synapse 105 will fit into my criteria.

Not sure about tire clearances, or the rear rack, but I know the Synapse will take fenders.

Marmot, thanks for the current review of the Sojourn. Unfortunately, shipping costs from Ottawa, Canada to Middle Georgia would eat up that 50% off price :O

motobecane69... I am glad that I posted this thread about the Sojourn because the more I hear from fellow Clydes the more I realize that I may not be a "touring" cyclist. It sounds like the Sojourn is a dedicated touring bike for someone who is going to load up and trek for days at a time. While I like the idea of doing that, the wife doesn't and will not ever ride for 8 hours a day and then camp in a pup tent. So, I believe that the best description of bike for which I am looking is a Commuter bike.

I want a bike that will handle decent width tires--not sure if 25 is wide enough--, a bike that has or I can add fenders, and a bike where I can mount at least 2 water bottles and a rear rack with panniers but I don't think I'll ever need front racks. I would also like to be able to do century rides on the bike, commute back and forth to work, trek through country roads, and one day when the engine is well tuned get into the ~20mph avg speed bracket.

Currently on the '11 Voyageur 7 I am averaging 13.5mph and about the same on the '83 World Tourist even though it has a fatter gear. My ride on the '83 Tourist worried me yesterday because I felt like I was pushing the bike on the whole 10 mile ride. I did 14 miles tonight on the '11 Voyageur 7 and felt like I was flying except for the hill climbs. However, I was able to stand and climb some of the hills tonight and when I couldn't finish the hill standing I could quickly get to the 40x34 gear and spin the rest of the way.

I am really curious to know how well the C'dale Synapse 105 will fit into my criteria. The Raleigh Clubman isn't far behind but I am a little worried that I might get that pushing feeling on it that I have with the '83 World Tourist. I gotta plan a trip to the LBS and bug'em.

PS-- I drive the family crazy with my decision making process but when I plan on shelling out $1000+ for a hobby I want the maximum bang for the buck.
great information. you need a bike like mine with the exception of maybe drop bars on it. this is the nashbar touring frame, with their carbon fiber cyclocross fork. It's riding on 35c tires but it can take 40C's easy. Question for you, Are you dead set on Steel? this frame is aluminum but honestly with the carbon fork and larger tires it rides like beauty. nice soft smooth ride like cadillac. I think people who obsess over steel are people who are putting it on a true road bike and planning on running it with 23 or 25c tires or true touring aficienados who want the perceived greater durability of a steel frame bike for loading it up with additional weight. But honestly, an aluminum frame on 32c tires with a proper saddle and carbon fork is gonna ride quite nice.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ivqSRjgHnFw/TZMujXoq5pI/AAAAAAAAAmY/bAkf5XulmXU/s912/IMAG0690.jpg

because i built this up piecemeal it cost me close to $1000. some say it was foolish but it was built for my specific commuting and foulweather needs. my recommendation to you would be to consider either a bike from bikesdirect.com or a one of nashbar's road bikes. Nashbar doesn't sell a full version of their touring bike, only the frame, however, the frame is only $75-100 dollars so you could buy their entry level road bike or a bikes direct road bike and then spend an extra $100 for the nashbar frame and then swap all the parts over. That is a pretty good cost effective option and the touring frame would give you a comfortable geometry that you could easily do century's on and not have any heel strike issues with panniers that you may encounter if you simply mount a rack on a regular road bike.

ps. yes I know the rack isn't level. I didn't install it, haven't gotten around to fixing it!

guess what? I was just on NAshbar's site, they have a Steel Touring bike they are putting out next month. Very nice price for a solidly equipped bike.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_522412_-1_10000__202339

guess what? I was just on NAshbar's site, they have a Steel Touring bike they are putting out next month. Very nice price for a solidly equipped bike.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_522412_-1_10000__202339

Interesting! It's almost like a canti-equipped, Brooks-less Sojourn. :-) That could be a great deal!

That bike from Nashbar is really interesting. I think I'll go bug the guy at the LBS today and see if he has any new recommendations.

I commuted home from work yesterday (21 miles) with a guy that commutes both ways almost every day. He was riding a Salsa and the orange is not as off-putting in person and the online photo seemed. This fellow rides almost everyday and when I mentioned the goal of averaging 19-20 mph he stated that it takes a lot of time to get that fast. His average speed is about 15mph on his commutes. I do know that I have a lot more riding to do because when we got to the hills, I was dropped pretty quickly. Thankfully he'd slow up until I could catch up.

So, now more than before I know that I need a long distance bike with drop handle bars for maximum number of hand positions with a wide range of gears and I would prefer 32-38 width tires and do not want bar-end shifters. I once thought that the bike had to be steel but I'd be content with an Alloy frame so long as I knew it was going to last. I don't foresee ever being so far from home that I need a welded repair on the frame just to keep going. I am really liking the gearing on the Raleigh Clubman but I am not liking the narrow tires.

Another bike to check out might be the surly pacer, I've been considering getting something a little more "sporty" bur can still ride all day and was looking at the pacer. I believe I read somewhere that it will fit 35mm tires.

Rode 30 miles to the nearest LBS on the Schwinn Voyaguer 7 and back home. My first 60 miler even though it was in two parts. The LBS was not very helpful in suggesting alternatives to the Raleigh Sojourn.

I've been digging some more online and I found this.

Steel Frame ... check
Wide Range of Gears ... (CR 50/39/30 - Sprocket 12-30) ... check
Fenders ... check
Rack mounts ... check
Brifters instead of Bar end ... check
At least 28 width tires ... check
Dealer within 100 miles ... check
Reasonable color ... check
Price ... scared to find out

Bike ... drum roll ... 2012 Jamis Bosanova

Frame Reynolds 520 double-butted chromoly main tubes with SST
tubing diameters, double-tapered cromo stays, extended head
tube with reinforced collars, custom laser cut road disc dropouts
with double eyelets
Fork Carbon fiber unicrown with disc mount, steel steerer,
forged dropouts
Headset Ritchey Logic, Aheadset, 1 1/8”
Wheels Alex DC25 disc specific double-wall rim, 32H, Formula alloy
disc road hubs and 14g stainless steel spokes
Tires Vittoria Randonneur Cross with Double Shield puncture
protection, 700 x 28c
Derailleurs Shimano Tiagra RD-4600GS rear and Tiagra FD-4603 front
with 28.6mm alloy clamp
Shiftlevers Shimano Tiagra ST-4600 Dual Control STI, 30-Speed
Chain KMC DX10SC
Cassette Shimano 10-Speed 12-30T
Crankset FSA Vero triple with PowerDrive, 50/39/30T, 170mm (48/51),
172.5mm (54/56), 175mm (58/61)
BB Set FSA PowerDrive sealed cartridge, 68 x 118mm
Pedals Touring platform style, full alloy with toe clips
Brakeset Avid BB-5 cable actuated disc brake with 160mm G2
CleanSweep rotors and Shimano Tiagra STI levers
Handlebar Ritchey BioMax Road, 6061 aluminum, 31.8 x 400mm (48/51),
420mm (54/56), 440mm (58/61)
Stem NVO Components TM-3 adjustable threadless system (ATS)
forged aluminum stem, 10º x 90mm (48/51), 105mm (54/56),
115mm (58/61). ATS shim length 100mm
Tape Jamis suede tape with Jamis logo and “J” end plug
Seat Post Jamis alloy micro-adjust, 27.2 x 350mm with cromo seat pin
Saddle Selle San Marco SPID Arrowhead with Syntex cover and carbon
steel rails
Accessories Full coverage fenders with adjustable stays & mud flaps
Sizes 48, 51, 54, 56, 58, 61cm
Color White Shadow/Gloss Black
Weight 27.00lbs

Anyone got any ideas why the Jamis might not be the perfect light touring/commuter/road (smooth and rough) bike?

BTW, on my trek to the bike store today I hit a dirt road. I do not ever want to ride on a dirt road again with the Voyageur much less with something like the Bossanova.

in my opinoin that bike is overpriced for the components that are on it. it's tiagra/sora and MSRP of 1150. they also skmped on the brakes using avid bb-5 vs the better bb-7 brakes the nashbar bike is probably a better value or i would buy a full ultegra bike from bikes direct for $1000 and then swap the components onto another steel frame and for about $1500 you would have a really nice bike. By the same token, as a commuter bike you don't necessarily want a bike with pricey components on it either but just don't pay a lot of money for mediocre components. also, stop worrying about tire size, it's easy enough to just buy the size tires you want, you need to be worried about the frame being able to fit larger tires, not the size of the tires that come with the bike.

The 2012 lineup is looking very good. I have been a Raleigh fan since my Supercourse mkII in the mid 70's. I ride 2 Raleigh's now that are in my sig. and really enjoy them both. The 2012 Militis 3 and Revenio 3.0 frames are really hot and hope to add one of them to my collection..

I rode a 5-speed Raleigh in the early 1970s. Wish I'd known enough to keep the Brooks it came with.

Back then you really had to give the chrome wheel rims a lot of TLC/polish as they pitted and rusted in no time. Much has changed since then for sure.

Good luck with the new bike, I like the look from the various pics on the web.

DaHaMac,

I would ride the Jamis if I were you. I bought the Jamis Aurora for my commuter/all around bike and have really enjoyed it. Good ride on 32c tires. I plan to change the saddle in the future but the stock saddle is not bad.

DaHaMac,

I would ride the Jamis if I were you. I bought the Jamis Aurora for my commuter/all around bike and have really enjoyed it. Good ride on 32c tires. I plan to change the saddle in the future but the stock saddle is not bad.

I am liking what I see from Jamis. Both the Aurora and the Bosanova are listed as being the same weight by Jamis (sorry the specs are in a pdf from Facebook).

In a perfect world I would be able to ride both the Raleigh Sojourn and Jamis bikes before buying but all of these bikes seem to be special order items. I did talk to a different Bike Store last week and I am encouraged that this new store really wants to help me find the right bike. I hope they will be open and the guy I talked to available Labor Day weekend.

Had a chance to ride the Raleigh Clubman. Nice bike. The only thing I didn't like is that it comes with 700 x 25cm tires, and living in the Boise/Meridian, Idaho area, I need to have at least 700 x 28cm tires to handle the unimproved, (and quite frankly unfinished chip seal surfaced), bike lanes that feel more like off road trails. Unfortunately, when the gentleman at the LBS and I took a look at the clearances, it doesn't look like we would be able to fit anything bigger than the 25cm stock tires.

I love the overall package that the new Raleigh Roper brings, though. And plenty of clearance for fenders. A few more bucks, though.

My advice would be the Surly Pacer: http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pacer

I rode my Pacer for 5 years, and loved every second of it. It fits your criteria on both price and value, as well as frame material, tire and fender clearances (Fatties Fit Fine, as Surly says), and also size choices and availability (Surly, like Salsa, is owned by QBP, which is probably the biggest distributor in the US). I only gave mine up after getting an amazing deal on a Scott road bike, but I still have my Cross Check, which is a close second in my heart behind the Pacer.

Give it a look. The best part about the Surly stuff is that it very easily grows with you. As you get better and more experienced, and get the desire to upgrade, the bike will be right there with you. I rode mine on my first 15 mile rides all the way up to centuries.

Mtbnomore - The Pacer is a nice road bike but the shorter chainstays (410mm) and lack of rack mounts disqualify it for my desired purposes.

Evidently, I am a Randonneur wannabe. Therefore, as a Commuter/Randonneur in training I will need the racks at some point. I currently ride with my Panniers in place even on weekend training rides.

I finally made it to the aforementioned LBS (~42 miles from house) that carries Jamis bikes. Although this LBS primarily sells Giant the technician I talked with is also a Commuter/Randonneur and after about an hour of conversation convinced my that the Aurora fits my needs the best. To prove the point that the barcons shouldn't be a deal breaker he arranged for me to ride an Aurora even though they didn't have one in stock. I got to ride the Aurora Saturday night and I am sold. I am just waiting on tax refund and the Aurora Elite to be available so that I will have new ride. Yes, the Elite is overbudget but it does meet my criteria more closely than any other bike at which I have looked. If I were going to go with a fully loaded Touring Bike then the Sojourn would move back to 1st place with the Salsa Vaya 3 knocking hard at the door.

Of course, if I truly had no upper budget limits then I would either have a Salsa Vaya Ti built to my specifications or I would buy a Co-Motion Cascadia. I guess those bikes will be my n+1 bikes :D

Cheers to the Aurora. I loved mine and somewhat regret selling it despite it being too small. The Elite should be a nice step up. I always like my Reynolds 631 mtb and I figure that would make a nice riding roadie.