Professional Cycling For the Fans - Cycling Not a Team sport, lets clear this up

It seems like the American public have been "Lancified" into thinking cycling is a "team" sport.

Well, Ill do my best to try to explain why it is not a team sport, but would admit, APPEARS to be a team sport.
Teams exist in cycling because of the way they organized races back in the day. They did it by country. In those cases, the true sense of the word was squad.
These days teams exist because as someone mentioned, its easier for sponsors and managers to have an organized, interchangeable roster of riders so as to allow for different terrain, injuries and race types. Further more, the dynamics of sponsorship makes it so that the whole "team" thing plays up in the tactics of races, not because cycling is a team sport. Dont confuse the necessities of sponsorship maintenance to mean that cycling is a team sport.
I think the biggest problem with people who havent raced think that teams "working" for somebody means something, or rather, immediately makes it a team sport. The fact of the matter is that the peleton will chase a breakaway, regardless of teams or no teams, believe me. Every single person in the peleton is trying to win. Just because there are no teams, does not mean that the peleton will automatically just stop at the side of the road and let a break away go. I am really confused as to where people got that notion from. If cycling did not have squads (and squads are really the correct definition), trust me, absolutely nothing about cycling would change. You would still have break aways, you would still have a peleton, and you would still have "lead-out trains." Teams make no difference in the matter, other than that they are the same color. Sprinters will always sprint from the last 500m. They will always jostle around in the bunch in the final meters regardless of teams or not.

People also look at the Tour once a year and listen to the commentary and form a picture of pro cycling. There is nothing about the Tour de France that's normal, other than that it's hard like other races. The Tour works in a VERY different way than regular day-to-day races.
In pro cycling, every race is EACH man's game. EVERY man is trying to win. And when I say that, I mean that there is actually a podium position that has a 1st, a 2nd, and a 3rd place, again, Im not sure how people fail to see this. Its like saying that the 1500m run at the olympic games is a team sport. Do they have pacemakers, sure, are they in a "team" of course they are, is it a team sport, of course not. Just because they have team tactics, does qualify it as a team sport. Basketball is a team sport. Soccer is a team sport, and so on. In the latter sport, its a team that wins a world cup, not an individual, and my golly, guess what, an individual wins a world cup in cycling. Actually takes a rocket scientist these days to recognize that apparently.
You dont see "lead-out-trains" in Milan-San Remo, or any classics race, and mind you, there are lots of them, and Ill remind you that they are very big, and very important.
World championship races have no teams "working." Thats doesnt exist. Its just whoever has the power to come to the front.
Most pro races are about surviving, or winning. Neo-pro races are even more so.
We always had a chit-chat in the team bus before the race about all the wonderful "team plans" we had, but guess what, when the race begins, its a matter of kill or be killed. Dont confuse for a second a grand Tour and a representation of pro-cycling.

Lance Armstrong is a drug-cheating pickle that sang the "i wouldnt have done it without my team" song, which Cav admits taught him to say that for the pretty TV cameras. People who watch the Tour start to think that its the day-to-day way of pro cycling, its not.

You would have a hard time convincing Johan Van Summeren (he's not an American). Have you been imbibing again?

I think you're overestimating the importance of winning races in pro cycling, and underestimating the importance of making money.

Every man is NOT trying to win. The MAJORITY of riders in a grand tour are solely dedicated to helping one of their teammates win so they too can make more money. Having a team in a classic is just an act of hedging your bets. It's more likely that someone on your team will win, than the likelihood of you winning.

You would have a hard time convincing Johan Van Summeren (he's not an American). Have you been imbibing again?
Is he a PAID pro? Paid as in, he has a team SPONSOR? there you go.

I think you're overestimating the importance of winning races in pro cycling, and underestimating the importance of making money.
I take that as a good argument. This I know, makes the world go round.

Every single person in the peleton is trying to win...

In pro cycling, every race is EACH man's game. EVERY man is trying to win.


These statements are simply untrue. The grand tours are different from most races, yes, but to say that in all other races every participant is trying to win, that team tactics don't exist, that deals aren't done both within and between teams is just plain wrong.

Speaking about his move to Garmin-Cervélo, Hushovd said: “I’m proud to join Team Garmin-Cervélo in 2011. Cervélo has been a great supporter for the past two years and its partnership with Garmin feels like a good fit,” said Hushovd. “I chose Garmin-Cervélo because I have a lot of respect for what Jonathan Vaughters has done for cycling, because I think we’ll have a very strong, competitive team, and because I’ll be able to continue to work with Cervélo. I look forward to seeing what we can all do together next year.”

Speaking about his move to Garmin-Cervélo, Hushovd said: “I’m proud to join Team Garmin-Cervélo in 2011. Cervélo has been a great supporter for the past two years and its partnership with Garmin feels like a good fit,” said Hushovd. “I chose Garmin-Cervélo because I have a lot of respect for what Jonathan Vaughters has done for cycling, because I think we’ll have a very strong, competitive team, and because I’ll be able to continue to work with Cervélo. I look forward to seeing what we can all do together next year.”

I don't necessarily agree with Howzit, but those quotes prove nothing. That's just good PR and he's spouting cliches. How happy do you think he really was after Paris Roubaix this year? If he really believed what he was saying he wouldn't be switching teams next year.

It seems like the American public have been "Lancified" into thinking cycling is a "team" sport.

I guess you don't remember Greg Lemond talking about the issues involved in 1986 when the team was split between him and Bernard Hinault.

You might also want to rethink your comments about Worlds in light of Alan Peiper's description of the bidding war between him and Phil Anderson to buy the support of the Australian team.

How many more threads are you going to start on this subject, Howzit?

I guess you don't remember Greg Lemond talking about the issues involved in 1986 when the team was split between him and Bernard Hinault.
Exactly, and what difference did that make? none.

......The grand tours are different from most races, yes, but to say that....... .that team tactics don't exist, ..... is just plain wrong.
Who exactly said or is saying this?
I SAID, team tactics dont make cycling a team sport, or more accurately, I said dont confuse team tactics to mean that cycling is a team sport.

Anything that you can do as a team you can do with other riders not in your team, contingent that you are all trying to win, and that you would ally with a comrade of same jersey colors before anyone else.

I don't necessarily agree with Howzit, but those quotes prove nothing. That's just good PR and he's spouting cliches. How happy do you think he really was after Paris Roubaix this year? If he really believed what he was saying he wouldn't be switching teams next year.

You said it.....Teams.

Anything that you can do as a team you can do with other riders not in your team, contingent that you are all trying to win, and that you would ally with a comrade of same jersey colors before anyone else.

But they aren't all trying to win. Anyone who says they are simply doesn't know what he's talking about.

Exactly, and what difference did that make? none.

That's not the point. You claim the concept of the winner being dependent on his team began with Armstrong. (I'm always glad to help with a reminder)

It seems like the American public have been "Lancified" into thinking cycling is a "team" sport.
From the Lemond example, at least 13 years earlier winners were talking about the importance of strong team support.

It was a nice try at the old misdirection trick though.

Who exactly said or is saying this?
I SAID, team tactics dont make cycling a team sport, or more accurately, I said dont confuse team tactics to mean that cycling is a team sport.
Anything that you can do as a team you can do with other riders not in your team, contingent that you are all trying to win, and that you would ally with a comrade of same jersey colors before anyone else.

So you can get someone on another team to block for you? You can get someone on another team to stop and wait while you get a new wheel, then pace you back to the group? You're blowing wind, Howzit, not that you'll ever realize or admit it.

god i miss tour season/howzit *****es nonsensically about everything season

cycling is a unique sport in that it can exist as a team sport as well as an individual sport. it just depends what level you ride at. furthermore, i believe that a TEAM is simpler than tactics and riding for someone else. if you wanna get technical about it, a team as defined by merriam-webster as "a number of persons associated together in work or activity." so it doesn't matter what the tactics are. you are associated together, you are a team. when i ran cross country, on race day we all ran as individuals. but between those races, we trained together, ate together, supported each other. we were a team. you can call that a "squad" if you want, but you are just arguing pointless semantics to stir the pot since, i presume, everyone in your real life quit letting you talk about cycling long ago.

This thread is simply Howzit taking yet another angle to demonstrate his hatred for all things Lance.

I guess he wants us to believe that Jens for example is back again hoping to win the Tour, Domestiques don't have a role on their teams, guys like Navarro really think they are going to win, Zubeldia, Zabriske, Hincapie, Renshaw, et al are really GC contenders but we are to stupid to realize it.

How many years before the pure hatred of lance fades and people return to living in the present?

So you can get someone on another team to block for you? You can get someone on another team to stop and wait while you get a new wheel, then pace you back to the group? You're blowing wind, Howzit, not that you'll ever realize or admit it.

Heck can you get away with just sitting on wheels of a chase group because you have some agreement wit a guy on some other team who is up the road?

The other riders change how they think about things based on what team the various riders are on.

You said it.....Teams.

Yes, teams exist. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with Howzit and I do believe that teamwork exists in cycling, even in the classics. But you can't show quotes from a guy blowing smoke up your ass to prove a point. That's like posting a quote of Lance's latest denial as evidence that he didn't dope.

This thread is simply Howzit taking yet another angle to demonstrate his hatred for all things Lance.

I guess he wants us to believe that Jens for example is back again hoping to win the Tour, Domestiques don't have a role on their teams, guys like Navarro really think they are going to win, Zubeldia, Zabriske, Hincapie, Renshaw, et al are really GC contenders but we are to stupid to realize it.

How many years before the pure hatred of lance fades and people return to living in the present?

Eddy knew how much team mattered. One of my favorite stages was wher he put almost 8 minutes on everyone. Team was involved, but some people on htis thread have no clue how important it was having Vandenbossche in the group chasing Merckx. Without a teammate the risk would not have been acceptable.

So you can get someone on another team to block for you?
There is no such thing as blocking in cycling, boxing in maybe, echelon guttering maybe, but if you block anybody in cycling you are being thrown out of a race. You obviously have never raced.

.....I do believe that teamwork exists in cycling, even in the classics......
Thats the problem with Americans and the English language.
You seem to be the only one who understands normal English.
Im not saying teamwork doesnt exist, Im saying cycling is not a team sport.

Anybody who reads this, do me a quick favor, replace team with squad, and you will better understand the argument here.
'In other words, cycling is a squad based sport, not a team sport.'
Please observe every word, and its placement in that last statement.
Basketball, baseball, soccer, rugby are team sports. Cycling is an individual sport, thats why it has individual podium positions, Im not sure what other way in English to explain this.

But seriously, Howitz is just a troll who's somehow managed not to get banned.

But seriously, Howitz is just a troll who's somehow managed not to get banned.
Im not sure how this is an argument to the topic. Oh wait, you are resorting to name calling after exhausting your arsenal of debatable points.... i get it.

Thats the problem with Americans and the English language.
You seem to be the only one who understands normal English.
Im not saying teamwork doesnt exist, Im saying cycling is not a team sport.

Anybody who reads this, do me a quick favor, replace team with squad, and you will better understand the argument here.
'In other words, cycling is a squad based sport, not a team sport.'
Please observe every word, and its placement in that last statement.
Basketball, baseball, soccer, rugby are team sports. Cycling is an individual sport, thats why it has individual podium positions, Im not sure what other way in English to explain this.

So are you saying that cycling would only be a team sport if they based all of the money and glory on Team GC?

Im not sure how this is an argument to the topic. Oh wait, you are resorting to name calling after exhausting your arsenal of debatable points.... i get it.

No, you act like a troll, thus you are one. Simple. You post this stupid, incorrect info just to diss armstrong and/or get a rise out of people.

So are you saying that cycling would only be a team sport if they based all of the money and glory on Team GC?

No Im saying it would be a team sport, if cycling was a team sport.
To make it easier to picture, imagine when Alberto stood on the podium in Paris last year, now imagine when whoever it is won the superbowl last year... see the difference?

Thats the problem with Americans and the English language.
You seem to be the only one who understands normal English.
Im not saying teamwork doesnt exist, Im saying cycling is not a team sport.

Anybody who reads this, do me a quick favor, replace team with squad, and you will better understand the argument here.
'In other words, cycling is a squad based sport, not a team sport.'
Please observe every word, and its placement in that last statement.
Basketball, baseball, soccer, rugby are team sports. Cycling is an individual sport, thats why it has individual podium positions, Im not sure what other way in English to explain this.

I belonged in a squad at some point and we usually had one objective. We worked as a squad to complete our objective and if we are succesfull we all come out alive and get to go home. Nobody gets to first, second nor third place. Okay so maybe it is not a sport...but your logic of changing team to squad is flawed.

Either way, your objective of clearing up "Cycling Not a Team Sport" makes no difference. It is an incredible show of athleticism with an incredible number of fans and your rant about the terms being used is...well...useless.

Why are you so angry?!?!

How about bike polo? That's a team sport and it's cycling.

What if they had a bike polo stage in the TdF somewhere at the start before the teams lose too many riders?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_polo

Why are so angry?!?!

Lance failed to give him a courtesy reach around.

There is no such thing as blocking in cycling, boxing in maybe, echelon guttering maybe, but if you block anybody in cycling you are being thrown out of a race. You obviously have never raced.

Wrong, once again. While I don't have the obvious racing credentials you do, I have raced a bit. To say that there is no such thing as blocking in bicycle racing gives the impression that you have never raced.

You are just completely without a clue. It might be fun to continue discussing this with you, if any of your arguments made sense. But they don't. You're a troll and a tool.

"Why didn't I pick a real team sport?"

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/SPORT/07/18/cycling.tour.contador.schlecks/t1larg.jpg

:D

Wrong, once again. While I don't have the obvious racing credentials you do, I have raced a bit. To say that there is no such thing as blocking in bicycle racing gives the impression that you have never raced.

You are just completely without a clue. It might be fun to continue discussing this with you, if any of your arguments made sense. But they don't. You're a troll and a tool.

Just don't get him started on sunscreen :innocent:

People -

Name calling and incivility will get the thread locked - I know you all know better, so consider this the final warning.

The "right" answer depends entirely on your definition.
From a very literal perspective, howzit is absolutely correct.
That said, it is quite common for other members of one's team to play some role in advancing the success of a fellow team member. They do not stand on the podium, and they don't reap a direct financial reward, but they do act as teammates.

:popcorn

Who really gives a rat's ass??? Don't watch it then, go watch synchronized swimming instead.

Who really gives a rat's ass??? Don't watch it then, go watch synchronized swimming instead.

There is no way that is a team sport. The only people who believe that are brainwashed Lance fan boys. Synchronized swimming is every woman for herself.

Not a team sport, hmph. The HTC Highroad train appears to be a team thats motivated to winning sprint stages.

Its a team sport for two main reasons:

Because its organised in teams: statement of fact. Calling them squads is semantics.
Because you can win or lose a GT or even a day race if your team does or doesn't help you.

Take a look at how CSC handed the 2008 TDF to Carlos Sastre by having multiple team members (Voigt.Cancellara, Schleck x 2..) attack Evans in the Alps. He did not know which one to follow and was obliged to follow them all. No individual can overcome that sort of team strategy.

The team element is highlighted in GT's but can be seen in most road races. Moreover, all teams are made of individuals so perhaps you need to resolve that basic premise first and then look at how it works in cycling.

The problem with cycling is that how do you define what it is. It's not really a pure team sport. It's not really just a squad with an objective. But it is a team sport with a different kind of approach. I don't know of any sport that has a similar kind of team approach or tactic. Some of what Howzit says is true but it's also a bit of a distortion. He also forgot there is a podium spot for the teams which finish high in the team classification. True this is overshadowed by the individual GC. The TDF could be run without teams but the ensuing chaos would be too confusing for fans. And would make too many sponsors seem meaningless. So yes, part of the team approach is to facilitate advertizing in a big way.

Also, without the team approach large riders could bully small guys who in fact could best them in GC. The teams may have come about as much to protect individual riders as to reduce the total chaos in the peloton.

http://habermann.metokur.org/files/2011/01/trollssuck.png

People -


That said, it is quite common for other members of one's team to play some role in advancing the success of a fellow team member. They do not stand on the podium, and they don't reap a direct financial reward, but they do act as teammates.


Depends what you mean by direct financial reward. It is common for teams to pool the prize money for stage wins. for example. That seems like a direct financial reward to me, and is the team being rewarded for a team effort.

The "right" answer depends entirely on your definition.


no it doesn't

1) Redefine the meaning of well defined words for my own meaningless argument.
2) Troll the internet expecting everyone to use my definitions instead of the ones currently accepted.
3) Repeat useless pedantic mantra based on inaccurate and self defined meanings of words.

To wit: "Im not saying teamwork doesn't exist, I'm saying cycling is not a team sport."

Please kids, don't feed the trolls.

. They do not stand on the podium, and they don't reap a direct financial reward, but they do act as teammates.

They typically do share in the cash. Most teams pool all the prize money. And with the big contracts today, sometimes the highly paid GC guy doesn't even take a share.


oops, should have read the whole thread.

no it doesn't


sorry, my bad, I see:



so much depends
upon
a red wheel
barrow

glazed with rain
water

beside the white
chickens.

In team sports like football (soccer) it is the winning team captain that picks up the trophy at the World Cup Final but it is the goal scorer who gets all the praise, everyone gets a medal. In the TDF it is the team leader who gets to wear the Maillot Jaune and the team that helped him get there get lesser rewards. Both are team sports where not every player is equal.

Complains about knowing Americans and the English language, yet can't do himself a favor and look up the definition of 'Team'.
Compares a 'Football Team' to 'Cycling Team'.. jaded by the light? Might want to put on your shades.
Fail Troll is hilarious and sad.

It is semantics. IMO it is a team sport in that the members all plan and work together toward a common goal. The members are picked for their individual talents to a common goal. In some opinions, since an individual stands on the podium, it is not a team victory. But in yesterdays stage, two different team members worked together as a team to try and reel in a BMC rider at the end. Were they a team by every deffinition of the word team? Had they womped on Cadel, would they still have been working together at the end or competing for the place finish? My guess is they would have giviin their all to beat each other. Frank sacrificed his place to go back to help his teammate Andy by dropping back to pull him to the finish. That is what team members do. They all celabrate when their game plan puts their team member on the podium.