Touring - LX vs XT crankset

I am looking for a crankset for a bike I am building for a ride from Minneapolis to South America. I am debating between the shimano LX and XT cranksets - can anyone tell me the differences between these? The LX are much cheaper (~$90 vs ~$200).
Thanks!

I don't know the differences between them but can pass along my observations. I toured with a friend last week, he using the LX and me using my XT crank. He had definite problems with creaking and squeaking which are admitted issues with his BB but he was also claiming he could feel some flex while climbing with his loaded bike. He is shopping for a new crank right now. Both my XT and his LX are touring cranks as far as chain ring sizes. They are NOT set up for MTB'ing. We carried comparable loads, obviously rode the same routes but I do weigh about 30 lbs more than he. I've never felt my XT crank flex or miss a beat.

I had an LX on another MTB and replaced it. I think my XT crank is heavier duty, I think it comes with a better BB but could be wrong and besides you can get BB's anywhere so thats easy to upgrade. I'm happy with my XT and would highly recommend it. It's by far one of my favorite cranksets no matter what type of bike touring or mountain. Not sure how helpful this is.

There are some very nice cranks for touring from Sugino, Velo Orange stocks their Cru models...all using square taper BB's which isn't a bad thing. You might want to check them out. Thats where my friend is headed I believe.

I am looking for a crankset for a bike I am building for a ride from Minneapolis to South America. I am debating between the shimano LX and XT cranksets - can anyone tell me the differences between these? The LX are much cheaper (~$90 vs ~$200).
Thanks!

There's a slight weight difference between XT and SLX but at $90, I suspect you are talking about Deore level or old LX. The weight difference between XT and Deore is much larger because the Deore (and old LX) use steel rings and solid crank arms. The finish on the Deore level is also not as nice nor are the bearing sets.

On the plus side, the Deore is going to work just as well and for as long as the XT, you just don't have the bragging rights.

For touring, I'd suggest finding a trekking crank (48/36/26) crank in either (you can find the XT version on-line from Europe). Swap out the 26 for a 22. I would also suggest the external bearing cranks because they are dead easy to install and work on.

You're heading to South America. It might be an advantage to go with a good old square taper bottom bracket.
It would be the easiest to find a replacement for should the need arise.

Shimano change their tech each year so XT of a few years ago is quite different to current XT.
The middle ring of 2010 XT is made of carbon fibre/steel mix. This may be OK for racing but I wouldnt trust it for a long tour.
Deore has an all steel mid and small ring. I'm not sure if the outer aluminium ring is as tough as the XT outer, usually Deore use a lower grade of alu.

Basically, Shimano have given up making simple, durable, tough components, they are light and snazzy or cheap and soft. The days when XT was the best, most cost-effective stuff for touring are long gone.

The advice to look at older style square taper systems is sound. High quality BB units last for much longer than other styles. You can get chainsets with tough Alu outer and mid rings and good steel inner ones.
I have never found stiffness to be a big deal with cranksets or BB units. Maybe it is for racers or really big, strong guys.

I went with XT because I wanted a 165mm crank arm length. Can't get that size in LX. I had to scour the net and ebay to find them! I got a used set (put it on my mtn bike), and a new set for the LHT.
My SO got a set of XT cranks in 172.5mm, very hard to find.

Most of the flexing usually don't occur with mountain cranksets, but rather with the quality of the frameset. The idea of buying a touring bike is to find a frame geometry and sizing that fits you really well while not compromising on frame stiffness and riding comfort loaded or unloaded. The flexing most riders will experience with touring bikes in general is with fish tailing, the rear oscillation that's generated either by pedaling or standing up while attacking a hill can be unnerving. For the most undiscerning rider, the LX or XT won't make a difference in terms of stiffness. XT gets you more bragging rights for say a few months before the scuff and scratch marks from leaning the crank against a high ledge or a parking meter sets in and makes it not so good looking!

If you are building a touring bike from scratch, you can look into the Sugino XD crankset. They come with good touring chainring setup starting with a 46T as a big chain ring. You can opt for a normal square taper; this you can splurge a bit with a Philwood or a Chris King, then you don't need to worry about overhauling the BB too often on a tour!

You really don't need a XC race bike crank on a touring bike , just need the ratios.

Low ones make the long climbs less fatiguing . 22t, but 24 is OK


I have kept using the M730 110/74 cranks for 20 years..

the chainrings, many would consider a down grade, are steel, all 3 ..

If you are building a touring bike from scratch, you can look into the Sugino XD crankset. They come with good touring chainring setup starting with a 46T as a big chain ring. You can opt for a normal square taper; this you can splurge a bit with a Philwood or a Chris King, then you don't need to worry about overhauling the BB too often on a tour!

Or you could buy an external bottom bracket crank and splurge on a Chris King external bottom bracket. Replaceable cartridge bearings that need no more service than a square taper bottom bracket and they are easier to work on.

I've had mountain bike cranks flex, swapped them out using the same frame and end of flex. My friend with the LX crank rides a Salsa Vaya, and I ride a Salsa Vaya so the frames are "pretty " similar.

Hi Ocho,

The reason why I said mountain cranks are supposed to be harder to flex is due to the needs of mountain bike riders who put their bikes through a lot more stress, abuse and torquing in 6 to 8 or even 10 foot drop offs that if the cranks constantly flexes, then eventually it will break. There will be continual liability issues with Shimano and that is not good. Mountain bikers are finnicky people you know. But that is not to say that you can not flex it. The most likely scenario and I had experienced it myself twice already and had almost forgotten cause I now have a Philwood is the short lifespan of the LX bottom bracket. It just died too quickly and developed a very slight noticeable play on the spindle. This will give you a flexing feeling when you pounce on the pedal. I went through 2 LX BB before I upgraded to XT. That went a bit longer before it too developed the same play.

Usually higher grade mountain components like XT and XTR are designed to be used and last only on race day or days only. They are designed to be light weight and not necessarily durable. Most tourers would suggest that you skip the mountain cranks and go with the Sugino XD 500T which is a commonly used crankset with the touring crowd and then customize the gear inches to your liking. I had used it and liked it on my previous road touring bike.
I use an old XT crankset square taper mated to a Philwood on a 26 inch touring bike now with custom chain rings and have never been happier with the setup.

Hi,
Thanks everyone for all the responses so quick. This is very helpful as I hope to make my decision within the next couple days.

About the square taper BB's, their advantage is that this is how most bottom brackets used to be? So replacing it would be easier, should the need arise?

Also, does anyone know of a good place to buy the Sugino crankset? I searched for "Sugino XD 500t" and got pretty meager results.

Thanks again, you guys are really priceless.

Also, cyccocommute (or anyone else) could you tell me more about "external bottom brackets" such as the Chris King? What are the advantages?

Hi,
Thanks everyone for all the responses so quick. This is very helpful as I hope to make my decision within the next couple days.

About the square taper BB's, their advantage is that this is how most bottom brackets used to be? So replacing it would be easier, should the need arise?

Also, does anyone know of a good place to buy the Sugino crankset? I searched for "Sugino XD 500t" and got pretty meager results.

Thanks again, you guys are really priceless.

You will have a far easier time finding a square taper bottom bracket in South America than a bottom bracket for LX/XT cranks which are not square taper.
XT/LX cranks use an "external" bottom bracket and they would be rare in a third world country.

Here's a link to Jenson USA's square taper CRANKSET page.
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/sub/131-Cranksets-Square+Taper.aspx?s=1260&mfg=0&closeoutHotdeal=&use=&sort=Default&show=25&pricemin=0&pricemax=900

The Shimano Alivio looks pretty good at $34.65, 22-32-42, as does the FSA Dynadrive for $49.99, 22-32-44.
They have Sugino XD600 cranksets for $135, 26-36-46.

Link to Jenson USA's square taper BOTTOM BRACKET page.
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/sub/110-Bottom+Brackets-Square+Taper.aspx?s=1309&mfg=0&closeoutHotdeal=&use=&sort=Default&show=25&pricemin=0&pricemax=300

The Shimano UN54 bottom bracket is a sweet deal at $21.99.

External BBs are needed as the tube Spindles of the latest stuff are too big for 1/4" ball BBs ,
internally.
Chris King and Phil Wood make their own , the rest come across the Sea.

externals use smaller balls and are right out there.. but you will be up to date with Marketing's
latest 'must have'.

Also, cyccocommute (or anyone else) could you tell me more about "external bottom brackets" such as the Chris King? What are the advantages?

"External" means the bearings are outside of the bottom bracket shell. The crank spindle is hollow and lighter than the solid spindle of a square taper BB.

The bearings are spaced farther apart which supports the spindle better.

Theoretically there is an advantage but in the real world, I don't think so. I have every kind of bottom bracket.

Chris King makes high quality external BBs. They are expensive.

Many people say square taper BBs are more durable than external BBs.

I just replaced the BB on my fixie with a Interloc Racing square taper BB. It's as sweet as anything I've ever used.

External BBs are needed as the tube Spindles of the latest stuff are too big for 1/4" ball BBs ,
internally.
Chris King and Phil Wood make their own , the rest come across the Sea.

externals use smaller balls and are right out there.. but you will be up to date with Marketing's
latest 'must have'.


"External" means the bearings are outside of the bottom bracket shell. The crank spindle is hollow and lighter than the solid spindle of a square taper BB.

The bearings are spaced farther apart which supports the spindle better.

Theoretically there is an advantage but in the real world, I don't think so. I have every kind of bottom bracket.

Chris King makes high quality external BBs. They are expensive.

Many people say square taper BBs are more durable than external BBs.

I just replaced the BB on my fixie with a Interloc Racing square taper BB. It's as sweet as anything I've ever used.

The larger diameter hollow spindle on external bottom bracket cranks is noticeably stiffer and lighter than square taper bottom brackets. However, the real advantage of external bottom bracket cranks is their ease of installation and maintenance. It takes only a couple of tools to install or remove a Shimano external BB crank. A 5 mm allen is all that is needed to tighten the arms onto the spindle or to remove it. If you have to replace the bearings...not something that happens any more often than replacing an internal BB...you could remove the BB with a pair of pliers.

To do the same operations with a internal BB requires 4 or 5 heavy tools. For touring, the external BB just makes sense.

Go LX, it will work just fine and forget about weight; we are not pro's.

I would not go on long tours on any XT stuff built in the last ten years (see comment above regarding XT moving towards racing). I would not go to a 2nd or 3rd world country with anything but a square taper BB (replacements will be impossible to find), which also pretty much nixes most of what Shimano has made in the last 10 years. Trying to save 200 grams of crank weight on a bike loaded to 70 lbs of touring gear makes no sense to me. Steel chain rings will last longer too, if you can find the appropriate size.

The larger diameter hollow spindle on external bottom bracket cranks is noticeably stiffer and lighter than square taper bottom brackets. However, the real advantage of external bottom bracket cranks is their ease of installation and maintenance. It takes only a couple of tools to install or remove a Shimano external BB crank. A 5 mm allen is all that is needed to tighten the arms onto the spindle or to remove it. If you have to replace the bearings...not something that happens any more often than replacing an internal BB...you could remove the BB with a pair of pliers.

To do the same operations with a internal BB requires 4 or 5 heavy tools. For touring, the external BB just makes sense.

I understand how they work, I have them on a couple of my bikes.
If you need a new BB while on tour you will be visiting a bike shop, no need to carry BB tools.
They are lighter but not so much as to be a must have.
I would have liked it if they were a significant improvement over square taper or splined but it just doesn't seem that way to me.

I would not go on long tours on any XT stuff built in the last ten years (see comment above regarding XT moving towards racing). I would not go to a 2nd or 3rd world country with anything but a square taper BB (replacements will be impossible to find), which also pretty much nixes most of what Shimano has made in the last 10 years. Trying to save 200 grams of crank weight on a bike loaded to 70 lbs of touring gear makes no sense to me. Steel chain rings will last longer too, if you can find the appropriate size.

Shimano still makes good old square taper stuff.
I second that on steel chainrings. They are usually riveted but the whole crankset usually cost less than an aluminum big ring.
Surly says that when their steel chainrings wear out, flip them and they'll go lots more.
People are willing to pay a premium for them.

Is there any truth to the idea that Shimano Alivio and Sora chainrings last longer than Deore or higher because of the material used?

Is there any truth to the idea that Shimano Alivio and Sora chainrings last longer than Deore or higher because of the material used?

If Alivio and Sora chainrings are made of steel then they'll last longer.

Shimano still makes good old square taper stuff.
I second that on steel chainrings. They are usually riveted but the whole crankset usually cost less than an aluminum big ring.
Surly says that when their steel chainrings wear out, flip them and they'll go lots more.
People are willing to pay a premium for them.

You aren't the only one who reads these posts. Geachguy is asking about options and the differences between cranks. If something happens to a crank in the middle of nowhere -not an event that's all that likely to begin with - an external BB crank requires less specialized tools to remedy the problem. It really is a simpler superior crank.


I would not go on long tours on any XT stuff built in the last ten years (see comment above regarding XT moving towards racing). I would not go to a 2nd or 3rd world country with anything but a square taper BB (replacements will be impossible to find), which also pretty much nixes most of what Shimano has made in the last 10 years. Trying to save 200 grams of crank weight on a bike loaded to 70 lbs of touring gear makes no sense to me. Steel chain rings will last longer too, if you can find the appropriate size.

It's not just saving 200 grams of crank weight. How likely do you think it's going to be to find a tool to remove a square taper Shimano bottom bracket and a replacement for that bottom bracket in the Backofbeyond? Like I said above, you could remove and install an external BB with a pair of pliers. If you used a BB with removable cartridge bearings, you'd be likely to find those size bearings since they are a standard generally used bearing size.

The XT equipment...well maybe not this year's hubs...is highly durable. I have XT and XTR equipment that I expect will last for decades because it's not really all that delicate.

You aren't the only one who reads these posts. Geachguy is asking about options and the differences between cranks. If something happens to a crank in the middle of nowhere -not an event that's all that likely to begin with - an external BB crank requires less specialized tools to remedy the problem. It really is a simpler superior crank.



It's not just saving 200 grams of crank weight. How likely do you think it's going to be to find a tool to remove a square taper Shimano bottom bracket and a replacement for that bottom bracket in the Backofbeyond? Like I said above, you could remove and install an external BB with a pair of pliers. If you used a BB with removable cartridge bearings, you'd be likely to find those size bearings since they are a standard generally used bearing size.

The XT equipment...well maybe not this year's hubs...is highly durable. I have XT and XTR equipment that I expect will last for decades because it's not really all that delicate.

You're not going to find ANY BB in the middle of nowhere, you'll HAVE to find a bike shop. If you're in a third world country you probably won't find a external BB but you would be certain to find a square taper. It may be a loose bearing BB but it will work. Speaking of loose bearing BBs, they've got them all beat for reliablity. When a cartridge bearing BB goes out (square taper, splined, or external), it's toast, while a loose bearing BB can be fixed.

You aren't the only one who reads these posts. Geachguy is asking about options and the differences between cranks. If something happens to a crank in the middle of nowhere -not an event that's all that likely to begin with - an external BB crank requires less specialized tools to remedy the problem. It really is a simpler superior crank.



It's not just saving 200 grams of crank weight. How likely do you think it's going to be to find a tool to remove a square taper Shimano bottom bracket and a replacement for that bottom bracket in the Backofbeyond? Like I said above, you could remove and install an external BB with a pair of pliers. If you used a BB with removable cartridge bearings, you'd be likely to find those size bearings since they are a standard generally used bearing size.

The XT equipment...well maybe not this year's hubs...is highly durable. I have XT and XTR equipment that I expect will last for decades because it's not really all that delicate.

Please provide me with the model number and serial number of that XT bottom bracket that you claimed provides decades of service. I already went through 1 XT bottom bracket in less than a decade, more like 8000 miles in a year. I guess I am not so lucky.:(

If you do not tour a lot and only tour in perfectly timed weather, any bottom bracket will last decades. Having said that, it is up to the original poster to choose whichever system fits him best. We can always provide suggestions. No system is best. If it were, no one will sell square taper anymore.

Guess what? People still sell square taper BB!

How likely do you think it's going to be to find a tool to remove a square taper Shimano bottom bracket and a replacement for that bottom bracket in the Backofbeyond?

Cartidges have been around long enough you have half a chance of finding something close. Square-taper cup-and-cones will last nearly forever with proper maintenance and you can get parts nearly anywhere. If you are touring in the states, Japan/Taiwan, Austrailia/New Zeeland or western Europe, you can get anything. I can pack a tool to remove it, but it won't do me a %^%$ bit of good if I cannot find a Shimano-decided-to-do-it-this-way-for-three-years-and-then-change-it-again part in Lost-Corn-Field, Columbia.

The only place current generation XT/XTR parts will last for decades is if they don't leave the boxes they came shipped in.

Hi,
Thanks again everyone.
I have all but made up my mind, so I thought I should let anyone who's interested know. I think I will get the Sugino XD 600 crankset, with the Shimano UN54 BB, though I think I will preemptively buy the replacement metal left cup, as the stock left cup is plastic and seems to break easily. Why Shimano would make one of the cups plastic is beyond me, and it also irks me that the BB costs about as much as the replacement metal cup, but c'est la vie.

You're not going to find ANY BB in the middle of nowhere, you'll HAVE to find a bike shop. If you're in a third world country you probably won't find a external BB but you would be certain to find a square taper. It may be a loose bearing BB but it will work. Speaking of loose bearing BBs, they've got them all beat for reliablity. When a cartridge bearing BB goes out (square taper, splined, or external), it's toast, while a loose bearing BB can be fixed.

The point of a cartridge bearing is that you replace it when it wears out. You replace loose bearings when they wear out too...and you usually replace the cones, cups and spindles too because they have become contaminated and pitted.

Because you can replace a cartridge bearing and if you made a wise choice of choosing an external bearing BB that has replaceable bearings - something that you should do if you are truly going way off beaten path - replacement cartridge bearings should be available anywhere there are cars. The bearings used in external bearing BB, internal BB, hubs, and headsets are standard size bearings that have applications in automobiles around the world. Finding a replacement shouldn't be any harder than finding a square taper bottom bracket.


Please provide me with the model number and serial number of that XT bottom bracket that you claimed provides decades of service. I already went through 1 XT bottom bracket in less than a decade, more like 8000 miles in a year. I guess I am not so lucky.:(

If you do not tour a lot and only tour in perfectly timed weather, any bottom bracket will last decades. Having said that, it is up to the original poster to choose whichever system fits him best. We can always provide suggestions. No system is best. If it were, no one will sell square taper anymore.

Guess what? People still sell square taper BB!

Quite frankly, I've never had any cartridge bearing bottom bracket of brand fail. I've had lots of old cup and spindle loose bearing bottom brackets that GeoKrpn thinks are so great fail. But I've had cheap Shimano bottom brackets, expensive Shimano BB, Race Face and Sram on various bicycles over thousands of miles. I've ridden them hard off-road, I've ridden them on-road, I've ridden them on tours, and I've ridden them on day-to-day commuting which is far harder on equipment than touring and comparable to off-road riding. Not a single one of those BBs has ever 'failed'. They've been replaced with newer, better equipment but not a single one of them has seized, worn out or even gotten rough. I've only ever had 3 cartridge bearings go out on me at all and all of those were hub bearings which are smaller and less robust.

And, no, I don't baby my parts. I ride them, abuse them and replace as necessary. Almost all of the parts I replace are 'necessary' in that they are upgrades. I have very few parts actually wear out and fail...other than tires and brake pads.


Cartidges have been around long enough you have half a chance of finding something close. Square-taper cup-and-cones will last nearly forever with proper maintenance and you can get parts nearly anywhere. If you are touring in the states, Japan/Taiwan, Austrailia/New Zeeland or western Europe, you can get anything. I can pack a tool to remove it, but it won't do me a %^%$ bit of good if I cannot find a Shimano-decided-to-do-it-this-way-for-three-years-and-then-change-it-again part in Lost-Corn-Field, Columbia.

The only place current generation XT/XTR parts will last for decades is if they don't leave the boxes they came shipped in.

You can get nostalgic all you want about cup and cone square taper bottom brackets. I won't be joining you. They were - and continue to be - old inferior technology. They were prone to infiltration by water and dirt even with seals. They are more difficult to work on than even cartridge bearing BB, requiring far more tools and more effort to get them properly adjusted. Yes, they require proper maintenance. Which means disassembly and repair at least annually and possibly far more frequently depending on the severity of service.

A cartridge bearing BB (including external BB) , on the other hand requires no service. You only replace them. But the frequency of replacement is usually measured in years. I've seen cartridge BB caked in dirt, grit, grass, cow crap and other indistinguishable animal waste material, soaked in water, salt encrusted and generally abuse which are still turning as smoothly as the day they came out of the factory box.

As for new generation XT and XTR, I have it. It's not flimsy or delicate. It's not going to melt in the rain. It's just a tough and rugged as old XT and XTR which have served me quite well for years and years. Given the amount of equipment I've used and abused in the past, I'm a pretty good judge of durability.

The point of a cartridge bearing is that you replace it when it wears out. You replace loose bearings when they wear out too...and you usually replace the cones, cups and spindles too because they have become contaminated and pitted.

Because you can replace a cartridge bearing and if you made a wise choice of choosing an external bearing BB that has replaceable bearings - something that you should do if you are truly going way off beaten path - replacement cartridge bearings should be available anywhere there are cars. The bearings used in external bearing BB, internal BB, hubs, and headsets are standard size bearings that have applications in automobiles around the world. Finding a replacement shouldn't be any harder than finding a square taper bottom bracket.



Quite frankly, I've never had any cartridge bearing bottom bracket of brand fail. I've had lots of old cup and spindle loose bearing bottom brackets that GeoKrpn thinks are so great fail. But I've had cheap Shimano bottom brackets, expensive Shimano BB, Race Face and Sram on various bicycles over thousands of miles. I've ridden them hard off-road, I've ridden them on-road, I've ridden them on tours, and I've ridden them on day-to-day commuting which is far harder on equipment than touring and comparable to off-road riding. Not a single one of those BBs has ever 'failed'. They've been replaced with newer, better equipment but not a single one of them has seized, worn out or even gotten rough. I've only ever had 3 cartridge bearings go out on me at all and all of those were hub bearings which are smaller and less robust.

And, no, I don't baby my parts. I ride them, abuse them and replace as necessary. Almost all of the parts I replace are 'necessary' in that they are upgrades. I have very few parts actually wear out and fail...other than tires and brake pads.



You can get nostalgic all you want about cup and cone square taper bottom brackets. I won't be joining you. They were - and continue to be - old inferior technology. They were prone to infiltration by water and dirt even with seals. They are more difficult to work on than even cartridge bearing BB, requiring far more tools and more effort to get them properly adjusted. Yes, they require proper maintenance. Which means disassembly and repair at least annually and possibly far more frequently depending on the severity of service.

A cartridge bearing BB (including external BB) , on the other hand requires no service. You only replace them. But the frequency of replacement is usually measured in years. I've seen cartridge BB caked in dirt, grit, grass, cow crap and other indistinguishable animal waste material, soaked in water, salt encrusted and generally abuse which are still turning as smoothly as the day they came out of the factory box.

As for new generation XT and XTR, I have it. It's not flimsy or delicate. It's not going to melt in the rain. It's just a tough and rugged as old XT and XTR which have served me quite well for years and years. Given the amount of equipment I've used and abused in the past, I'm a pretty good judge of durability.

I don't think it really matters what type of BB you take to a third world country as long as you are willing to do what it takes if you have a problem. That might mean dumping your crank and BB and replacing them with what's available. Not really a big deal as long as you have the means to pay for it. I still think, in the more remote locations, that lower tech has it's appeal. I would imagine shopping for bike parts in a third world country is like shopping at a 99 cent store, you get what they got, no regularly stocked items.

The ONLY BBs that have failed on me were cartridge bearing BBs. I don't recall a loose bearing BB ever failing like a cartridge bearing BB, poof, toast.

Replace or service, about the same amount of work, about the same interval, service being something I can do myself for the cost of a bit of grease. I own every type of BB, no one type dramatically rising above the rest from the perspective of the saddle.

There are other commenters here that haven't had your luck with cartridge bearing BBs. I just replaced one that was less than a year old and have had many fail over the years.

This is a case where each system has it's pluses and minuses and one'e decision comes down to their particular riding needs.

My Expedition bike ran it's stock Kuwahara / Tange bottom bracket for over 30,000 km and was used in the nastiest conditions and serviced regularly... retired it because I changed my cranks and needed a different spindle and the old bottom bracket is still in fine shape.

The replacement was an NOS Shimano LX cup and cone which is ridiculously smooth and very well made.

Still use cup and cone bottom brackets on many of my bikes and they keep running smoothly day in and day out, year in and year out but they are a little more work to maintain.

Cartridge bottom brackets are often not as smooth but for an economical and trouble free set up there is nothing better... when anyone says a part lasts decades that is meaningless... if you don't use something it will last forever and mileage and the conditions under which you ride are a better gauge of how durable a part is.

External bottom brackets provide better bearing support and stiffer spindles... some are easily contaminated and get noisy but they are very easy to service.

If one was touring in the nether regions I would not go with an external bottom bracket and their matching cranks... a square taper bottom bracket and cranks can be serviiced / replaced almost anywhere and they can stand up to some serious use and abuse... a Shimano UN54 costs about 20.00 and will deliver many thousands of kim of trouble free service... I seem to kill them after 15 - 20 thousand kilometers.

This is a case where each system has it's pluses and minuses and one'e decision comes down to their particular riding needs.

My Expedition bike ran it's stock Kuwahara / Tange bottom bracket for over 30,000 km and was used in the nastiest conditions and serviced regularly... retired it because I changed my cranks and needed a different spindle and the old bottom bracket is still in fine shape.

The replacement was an NOS Shimano LX cup and cone which is ridiculously smooth and very well made.

Still use cup and cone bottom brackets on many of my bikes and they keep running smoothly day in and day out, year in and year out but they are a little more work to maintain.

Cartridge bottom brackets are often not as smooth but for an economical and trouble free set up there is nothing better... when anyone says a part lasts decades that is meaningless... if you don't use something it will last forever and mileage and the conditions under which you ride are a better gauge of how durable a part is.

External bottom brackets provide better bearing support and stiffer spindles... some are easily contaminated and get noisy but they are very easy to service.

If one was touring in the nether regions I would not go with an external bottom bracket and their matching cranks... a square taper bottom bracket and cranks can be serviiced / replaced almost anywhere and they can stand up to some serious use and abuse... a Shimano UN54 costs about 20.00 and will deliver many thousands of kim of trouble free service... I seem to kill them after 15 - 20 thousand kilometers.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

What did we gain from cartridge bearing BBs? The latest external bearing ones are clearly lighter but the square taper and splined are not.
Are they better bottom brackets?
You said your NOS LX cup and cone BB is ridiculously smooth and that cartridge BBs are often not as smooth. Are you saying that cup and cone is better?
Ok, so you have to service a cup and cone BB. How often do you do that on your main ride? Is it materially more difficult than replacing a a cartridge bearing BB?
Your Kuwahara/Tange cup and cone BB is still in fine shape after 30,000km and you get 15-20k out of a UN54 cartridge bearing BB.
What would entice you to use a UN54 over your NOS LX other than the reason that cup and cone BBs are no longer widely available?

I would just get the new Deore crank with the trekking ring ratio 48-36-26, swap the 26 out for a 24, and call it good. steel rings on 2 or all 3 out of the box.

the newer higher end mountain cranks from shimano all use their new carbon/ally rings which are both expensive and goofy overkill for a touring bike IMO.

I've always like the sugino cranks but the new external BB stuff is much easier to install and take cranks off of bike. i think its a big step up. a rider on a global scaled trip could carry an extra BB for those cranks, they weigh less than a fart. or, overnighted in the mail for little cost as they are under a pound.

i've got frames that, once the threads were chased, allowed the BB cups to be installed by hand except for the final tightening. a rider could replace them on the side of the road with a rock, a belt, and a swiss army knife.

Cartridge bottom brackets are often not as smooth but for an economical and trouble free set up there is nothing better... when anyone says a part lasts decades that is meaningless... if you don't use something it will last forever and mileage and the conditions under which you ride are a better gauge of how durable a part is.



To be clear, I didn't say that I've had bottom brackets last for decades. I said that I've never had one fail which is a big difference. I've used cup and cone BB extensively before the advent of cartridge bearing BB. Some were sealed but many were not. I've had more of them fail than I can count due to pitting of both the spindle and the cups from infiltration of contaminants. The contaminants were usually grit and water from mountain biking.

That infiltration is the major failing of the cup and cone BB. If you ride off-road, you can't avoid throwing dirt and grit at your bottom bracket. If you want to preserve the cup and cone BB, you should tear it apart and rebuild it after every off-road trip or else you end up with grit in the bearings and that's never good. Cartridge BB are far better sealed and require zero maintenance. In other words you run them until they don't work anymore and the replace them. For me, that replacement interval has always been so long that I replace them with upgraded equipment before they wear out.


Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

What did we gain from cartridge bearing BBs?

We gain time. Maintaining a cup and cone BB is a time consuming and rather complicated procedure. The maintenance interval makes the task even more onerous. A UN54 BB like Sixty Fiver uses is cheap. He may only get 20,000 km (12,000 miles) out of one but that's 12,000 fiddle free miles for $12 to $20 probably in really crappy conditions. His cup and cone BB may get 30,000 km (18,000 miles) but in order to get that kind of service life out of his cup and cone BB, he's going to have to service it on a very regular basis. The number of times is dependent on how crappy the conditions that he rides in. If he rides in nice conditions, he might get away with 3 or 4 rebuilds. Throw in lots of winter slush, salt and grit or ride it hard off-road and he could double or triple that service interval.

And let's look at the service that's involved. Remove the cranks, remove the lock ring, remove the NDS cup, remove the spindle, perhaps remove the DS cup (not all that easy to do if it's on there properly), clean out the old grease, install new bearing (you should do this every time you take the bearings apart because you don't know what the grit may have done to the bearings), reinstall the fix cup, reinstall the spindle, reinstall the adjustable cup, adjust the load on the bearings, lock the NDS cup in place with the lock ring, perhaps readjust the NDS cup because the bearing load isn't right, install the cranks.

Compare that to a cartridge bearing install which is basically 4 steps. Remove the crank, remove the BB, install the new BB, install the cranks. Easy peasy. External bearings are even easier because you only have one crank arm to tighten.

I used cup and cone BB from the late 70s to the early 90s and replaced innumerable spindles and slightly fewer cups. I rebuilt my bottom brackets on such a regular basis that it seemed like I was doing it weekly but was still replacing spindles. I haven't had a single cartridge BB (which I never service) fail since I switched. By any measure the reason that I use cartridge BB seems crystal clear. I'd rather be riding then fiddling with my bottom bracket.



I would just get the new Deore crank with the trekking ring ratio 48-36-26, swap the 26 out for a 24, and call it good. steel rings on 2 or all 3 out of the box.

the newer higher end mountain cranks from shimano all use their new carbon/ally rings which are both expensive and goofy overkill for a touring bike IMO.

I've always like the sugino cranks but the new external BB stuff is much easier to install and take cranks off of bike. i think its a big step up. a rider on a global scaled trip could carry an extra BB for those cranks, they weigh less than a fart. or, overnighted in the mail for little cost as they are under a pound.

i've got frames that, once the threads were chased, allowed the BB cups to be installed by hand except for the final tightening. a rider could replace them on the side of the road with a rock, a belt, and a swiss army knife.

What I've been saying all along:thumb: Make your life easier. The less tools required to fix something, the better.

Cup and cone BB blows hard. Sealed cartridge bearings, or external bbs, are the way the go.

Do any of you think going 42-32-22 is too easy? I mean I know it sounds like a funny question. But, on my department store bicycle, the freewheel only goes down to 14T. I haven't completed my Nashbar touring frame build. But, I have an 8 speed cassette that goes down to 11T. Using a gearing calculator, I saw I could still have a top gear that would be as hard as my 48T to 14T with 42T to 11T. I'm still debating a max of 42T, 44T, 46T or 48T or even 52T.

Do any of you think going 42-32-22 is too easy? I mean I know it sounds like a funny question. But, on my department store bicycle, the freewheel only goes down to 14T. I haven't completed my Nashbar touring frame build. But, I have an 8 speed cassette that goes down to 11T. Using a gearing calculator, I saw I could still have a top gear that would be as hard as my 48T to 14T with 42T to 11T. I'm still debating a max of 42T, 44T, 46T or 48T or even 52T.

Even a 42/11 runs out of gears pretty quickly. How much do you want to coast and how fast are you brave enough to go? Me? 44/11 is too low (too much coasting). 53/11 makes for a saddle disappearing act:eek::innocent: It's fun but in a very bad way:thumb:

I've always like the sugino cranks but the new external BB stuff is much easier to install and take cranks off of bike. i think its a big step up. a rider on a global scaled trip could carry an extra BB for those cranks, they weigh less than a fart. or, overnighted in the mail for little cost as they are under a pound.

I am curious about the sugino external bearing compact double:

http://bikehugger.com/post/view/sugino-ox801d

a solid forged square taper crank and Phil Wood BB will be fine..

I built up my one off touring frame , and used the BB components Burley/ATP fit
for the rear BB on their tandems at a time , same bearing is used in autos
oversize, large balls , internal , and the BB shell is sealed by the bearings
a zirk filled the space between them with abundant grease.

Hi,
Thanks everyone for all the responses so quick. This is very helpful as I hope to make my decision within the next couple days.

About the square taper BB's, their advantage is that this is how most bottom brackets used to be? So replacing it would be easier, should the need arise?

Also, does anyone know of a good place to buy the Sugino crankset? I searched for "Sugino XD 500t" and got pretty meager results.

Thanks again, you guys are really priceless.
Amazon.com has them all the time.

Go LX, it will work just fine and forget about weight; we are not pro's.

+1. The $89 one Jenson sells comes with the BB to boot. I've got three of them on bikes, with no issues/. The whole "his is creaking and mine isn't" thing is malarkey.

If you are still looking for XD, a good choice. I would go to either Rivendell, or Spicer. Spicer used to carry all the crank arm sets, and rings, so you could build whatever. Don't see that now, but you could ask. He also used to sell the XD 500, which has the steel rings.

http://spicercycles.com/product-list/sugino-b397/cranksets-xd600-t181-m1099-qc37/

http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/sugino-xd2/12-190