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In response to suntreader, and this is about as simple as one could make it:
DO you really think anyone here would write Councilmember Provenzano and say, "Excuse me ma'am, but I think you're a dumbass?" I think it's okay to say that sort of thing here, and I really don't think anyone is dumb enough to say it directly to her in a case like this.
Actually I did. My actual words were, "That is the most dumbassed idea I've ever heard and only serves to make NYC a harder place to cycle for most people and decreases the standard of living for a lot of people who might otherwise go out, get some exercise, save some gas, and lessen our dependance on oil."
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DO you really think anyone here would write Councilmember Provenzano and say, "Excuse me ma'am, but I think you're a dumbass?"
Yes. Absolutely.
Secondly, to the people who keep saying on and on and on that cyclists want to be treated like cars and are now being treated like cars and don't like it, just think about what you're saying. Do cars get doored? Do cars get run off the road? Do cars have people drive by and have things thrown at them? Do cars get forced onto the equivalent of rural pothole-paths?
Wrong argument and it underscores why broad sweeping demands need to be replaced by specific and effective targeted advocacy, e.g., education, enforcement, and awareness regarding the existing laws governing bicycle operation on public roads to both motorists and cyclists. The inequities you cite regarding bicyclists are all examples of behavior and attitude problems that manifest themselves not only in car-bike encounters but also in car-pedestrian, car-motorcycle, and car-car incidents. If cyclists were required to meet some level of riding proficiency as evidenced by a license and pay a road use fee via a vehicle registration it would actually strengthen the argument that cyclists have a vested interest and are stakeholders vs. freeloaders in the eyes of many motorists. I'm not saying that it's the right way to go, but there are some valid issues to consider when debating bicycle licensing and registration. And, yes, I can easily take the other side of the argument on as well.
If New York City treated cyclists half as good as they treated cars, we'd be in great shape.
If there were as many cyclists as motorists they would, but there aren't. In fact, someday in some place a grass roots effort by motorists who firmly believe bicycles should be banned from certain roads will take hold. If so, it could be put before elected officials for a vote or end up on a ballot where we might just discover how small a minority hard-core, road-using cyclists hold. Mandatory sidepath laws have already hit the books in many places throughout the US where it is illegal to ride a bicycle on a roadway when a bicycle sidepath has been installed adjacent to the road so the precedent is already there. Rural areas in particular, and in certain demographics, will likely lead the way and a sidepath may or may not be something that taxpayers will be willing to pay for. Far fetched? I hope so but, most of all, I just hope it never gets tested on a ballot initiative.
This is simply an attempt to ram a law into place so that they can use it the next time they have a Critical Mass ride in the city and want to bust it up. How many "registration violations" do you think will pile up with 1000 cyclists at Union Square?
Pretty smart move on their part if you ask me. I believe this is what's called hardball. There is a way to address your interests to elected officials that is effective and then there are ways that you can run afoul of them. Politicians work to meet the needs of their constituents and, in particular, the ones who make up the majority of the voters who put them into office. You'll have a hard time selling the elected official on something that you haven't already convinced their constituents of. What has CM done to improve its image in the eyes of the average, non-cycling New York City voter and, more importantly, the casual recreational bike riders who don't ride on public roads and who would also be subject to the new law? That's your base...
I for one would rather cut this sort of thing off long before that.
Then get yourselves a good lobbyist to go and work the system if you want to be sure it is severely stripped of its teeth and/or dies in committee.
In Ohio, many cities require bikes to display their registration. Fortunately, the rules aren't enforced, but a touring cyclist (or even one that wanted to ride across several suburbs) would need to display tags from each locality. This is a recipe for arbitrary enforcement.
Why? As I drive across country, my auto tags do not require updating to each locality...
Look I am not a huge fan of this, but I do remember doing this as a kid, and it simply meant that if a bike was stolen, there was a record of the SN and it had a tag on it.
Now on the other hand, the punishment DOES not even come close to fitting the crime... perhaps a simple fine might be in line, but 15 days... sheesh, someone is on a power trip.
Why? Because local governments aren't thinking about what they are doing. There are statutes that make auto tags valid across the country. I haven't seen a single law that makes one locality's bike tags valid in any other place.
To make bike tags mandatory and practical, the states and the federal governemnt would have to develop a similar system of reciprocity for bike tags. Local rules would have to be barred. But that's not going to happen, so it's a bad idea for a city to pass a law requiring display of its own local tag.
Just to make you all aware, this "idea" finally made it to the papers today. One article in the Daily News, and an Op-Ed talking about cyclists as being the "real danger."
I'm sure Queens Boulevard is known as the Boulevard of Death because cyclists are running people down in crosswalks.
Provenzano is a Democrat:
http://www.nyccouncil.info/constituent/member_details.cfm?con_id=15&VOTE=YES
Councilwoman Provenzano's Contact Information:
Email: provenzano@council.nyc.ny.us
District Office Address:
2931 Westchester Avenue
Bronx, New York, 10461
District Office Phone No.: (718) 931-6060
Fax Phone No.: (718) 518-8443
Manhattan Office Address:
250 Broadway, 17th Floor
New York, 10007
Manhattan Office Phone No.: (212) 788-7375
Here's how the Daily News reported it:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/253898p-217382c.html
And then in the opinion section, they had this tripe:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/253732p-217248c.html
To make bike tags mandatory and practical, the states and the federal governemnt would have to develop a similar system of reciprocity for bike tags. Local rules would have to be barred. But that's not going to happen, so it's a bad idea for a city to pass a law requiring display of its own local tag.
But, such laws do exist... such as in the League of American Bicyclist's Bicycle-Friendly Community of Schaumburg, Illinios: http://www.bicyclefriendlycommunity.org/press_schaumburg.htm
Local ordinance Web site:
http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/IL/Schaumburg/index.htm
§ 73.04 LICENSING OF BICYCLES.
(A) It shall be unlawful for any person to operate a bicycle in the village without having first registered such bicycle with the Police Department. Such registration shall be on such forms as may be provided by the Police Department. Upon the inspection of the bicycle to be registered and the determination that such bicycle is in a safe condition, the Police Department shall issue a license for the operation of such bicycle. The license shall be in the form of a decal or sticker which must be displayed on the bicycle which has been registered under the terms of this chapter.
(B) No person shall remove a license from a bicycle during the period for which it is issued, except upon a transfer of ownership or in the event the bicycle is dismantled or no longer operated upon any street in the village, or when removed by police order.
(C) Licenses shall be valid a period of five calendar years from date of issuance. Licenses that become lost or illegible shall be replaced with a new license. Replacement licenses shall be obtained from the Police Department.
(Ord. 1849, passed 5-13-80; Am. Ord. 91-159, passed 12-10-91) Penalty, see § 10.99
§ 10.99 GENERAL PENALTY.
Any person, firm or corporation who violates any provision of this Code for which another penalty is not specifically provided shall, upon conviction, be subject to a fine not less than $100 and not exceeding $750. A separate offense shall be deemed committed upon each day during which a violation occurs or continues.
(Am. Ord. 95-100, passed 9-12-95)
But what Daily Commute said doesn't dispute that it's happening, only that it's assinine for it to happen.
For example, a cyclist comes from New Jersey to ride in the city. They have to find the local police station (on a Saturday or Sunday), fill out the form, pay the fee, get the plate (or a form) and then they can ride.
That'll really help cycling in NYC. What a great idea.
The only way to solve that problem is for New Jersey to enact a similar law and for states to recognize the licenses of other states...
And so on...
And so forth...
But, such laws do exist... such as in the League of American Bicyclist's Bicycle-Friendly Community of Schaumburg, Illinios: http://www.bicyclefriendlycommunity.org/press_schaumburg.htm
Local ordinance Web site:
http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/IL/Schaumburg/index.htm
§ 73.04 LICENSING OF BICYCLES.
(A) It shall be unlawful for any person to operate a bicycle in the village without having first registered such bicycle with the Police Department. Such registration shall be on such forms as may be provided by the Police Department. Upon the inspection of the bicycle to be registered and the determination that such bicycle is in a safe condition, the Police Department shall issue a license for the operation of such bicycle. The license shall be in the form of a decal or sticker which must be displayed on the bicycle which has been registered under the terms of this chapter.
(B) No person shall remove a license from a bicycle during the period for which it is issued, except upon a transfer of ownership or in the event the bicycle is dismantled or no longer operated upon any street in the village, or when removed by police order.
(C) Licenses shall be valid a period of five calendar years from date of issuance. Licenses that become lost or illegible shall be replaced with a new license. Replacement licenses shall be obtained from the Police Department.
(Ord. 1849, passed 5-13-80; Am. Ord. 91-159, passed 12-10-91) Penalty, see § 10.99
§ 10.99 GENERAL PENALTY.
Any person, firm or corporation who violates any provision of this Code for which another penalty is not specifically provided shall, upon conviction, be subject to a fine not less than $100 and not exceeding $750. A separate offense shall be deemed committed upon each day during which a violation occurs or continues.
(Am. Ord. 95-100, passed 9-12-95)What do they do with transient cyclists? It sounds like you could never include Schaumberg on a Century, or tour. the irony is that if I had a folding bike I probably would have violated this ordinance, because I would have brought it to a few meetings I attended at a hotel there.
What do they do with transient cyclists? It sounds like you could never include Schaumberg on a Century, or tour. the irony is that if I had a folding bike I probably would have violated this ordinance, because I would have brought it to a few meetings I attended at a hotel there.
An interesting dilemma, to be sure. Which gets back to the basics regarding education and enforcement. How many cyclists know that such a law exists in Schaumburg, IL; residents or otherwise? How well informed are the officers on the ordinance and do they actually enforce it? What about that grey area regarding non-residents?
Interestingly enough, I believe the law was intended to serve as a bicycle theft deterrent and as I mentioned in an earlier post I can recall that similar provisions were in place in Ramsey, NJ, back in the 60's - 70's. However, the "mandatory" provision when coupled with the penalty provisions -- and another Schaumburg code that requires mandatory use of bicycle sidepaths that parallel a road -- do make you take pause to consider just how bicycle friendly these provisions are.
As for the OpEd or Letter to the Editor linked above, y'all have a real PR problem on your hands in NYC with the bicycle messenger issues and your CM activities during the RNC. In a city of 8 million, even 2 million bicycle owners is well short of a majority voice.
The whole idea of buying a license sounds like a fund-raiser to me. I wish the cops would just have a bake sale instead.
As far as the jail time goes, all they have to do is arrest the wrong person who is asthmatic, or diabetic, that dies in jail when they're held for 15 days w/o their medication. Great!! Way to clean up the streets, guys!
Nazi York City.
Let's cool it with the Nazi rhetoric. It helps no one and nothing.
I agree with vincenzosi. I oppose requiring bikes to display local tags, but that's a far cry from requiring Jews to wear a yellow star on their way to a death camp. Let's save the Nazi analogies for people who try to murder entire ethnic groups.
livngood, my point was that there is no reciprocity with cycle tags. I can legally drive a car with Ohio plates in New York City. But I can't legally ride a bike with Columbus, Ohio plates (if they exist) in some of Columbus' suburbs. To be legal, I would have to display tags for each locality I ride through. That's just silly. And it's a recipe for arbitrary enforcement.
As to the Daily News articles, the one about ticketing cyclists who ride dangerously is not tripe--it's mostly fair. Cyclists who run red lights, ride on sidewalks, and refuse to respect pedestrians in crosswalks should be aggressively ticketed. They are the reason NYC is considering the tag law.
Why? Because local governments aren't thinking about what they are doing. There are statutes that make auto tags valid across the country. I haven't seen a single law that makes one locality's bike tags valid in any other place.
To make bike tags mandatory and practical, the states and the federal governemnt would have to develop a similar system of reciprocity for bike tags. Local rules would have to be barred. But that's not going to happen, so it's a bad idea for a city to pass a law requiring display of its own local tag.
When I was researching something about registration of bicycles in California, I believe I found something that left it up to local governments, but made that registration good throughout the state.
livngood, my point was that there is no reciprocity with cycle tags.
I didn't disagree with you on that point; I only wanted to point out that the problem already exists in certain municipalities... including one that the LAB has certified as a Bicycle Friendly Community.
Again, this underscores the problem that bicycle advocacy has given all the different and sometimes conflicting agendas that are advanced. In the face of chaos, those who can articulate a clear agenda can often times succeed in advancing that agenda despite fatal flaws.
The whole idea of buying a license sounds like a fund-raiser to me. I wish the cops would just have a bake sale instead.
As far as the jail time goes, all they have to do is arrest the wrong person who is asthmatic, or diabetic, that dies in jail when they're held for 15 days w/o their medication. Great!! Way to clean up the streets, guys!
Nazi York City.
:rolleyes:
When I was researching something about registration of bicycles in California, I believe I found something that left it up to local governments, but made that registration good throughout the state.
Then California has a less bad law than many other states. I still think that for bike tags to work, there needs to be national reciprocity. But even that presents a whole host of new problems (money, privacy, standards, etc.).
I didn't disagree with you on that point; I only wanted to point out that the problem already exists in certain municipalities... including one that the LAB has certified as a Bicycle Friendly Community. . . .
Fair enough. That also points to a problem with the LAB--its penchant for big government projects over the needs of cyclists who ride to get from Point A to Point B. But that's another thread . . .
As far as the jail time goes, all they have to do is arrest the wrong person who is asthmatic, or diabetic, that dies in jail when they're held for 15 days w/o their medication. Great!! Way to clean up the streets, guys!
Nazi York City.
Who do you know who has been held in jail without medication? I've witnessed hundreds of bookings. The first question the detention officers here ask is "Are you on any medication?" If the detainee answers in the affirmative, he is placed in medical isolation until the claim can be verified and the medication can be administered. It is against the law to do otherwise.
As far as the Nazi tag goes, you are decreasing your bargaining power every time you compare your duly elected City Council to the Nazi's or other repressive regimes. Further, your words are probably extremely offensive to NYC residents who languished in Nazi death camps themselves or who lost family members and friends in the camps.
Although I'm not old enough to remember the Axis regimes, I do remember the Soviet crackdowns in Budapest and Prague. I even got a first-hand look at Soviet East Germany. A $25 license tag is a far cry from the brutality I saw there. In fact, if NYC were controllled by real Nazis, you'd already be in jail... or worse.
Nazi York City.
Can we all grow up please???
Of course, my sh*t stinks too so I need to grow up myself. I don't want this to become some flame war. But really, Nazi York City??
Almost as bad as Crooklyn.
Here's how the Daily News reported it:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/253898p-217382c.html
And then in the opinion section, they had this tripe:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/253732p-217248c.html
man, that is just bad news. (no pun intended) Once the zombies read these little items I'm sure there will be even more rallying for it.
Why the hell all this attention to bikers all of a sudden?? Don't they realize that this city has far worse problems?
I said it on the other forum,
No Way Will the NYPD enforce this (they have enough contractual problems with NYC and the mayor)
They NYPD and police officers union is under contract negotiations with Bloomberg and this has gone to state arbitration.
They are not going to expend any extra effort to enforce bull**** laws like this, believe me, no matter how much Cops hate bicyclists, if it requires extra work (meaning paperwork, hassling with angry cyclists), they aren't going to waste their time.
Cops have had enough with NYC's bureaucratic mess as the regular populace have.
That's a FAct Jack.
By the way, if this bill does become law, you won't be dealing with Cops, but with Meter Maids who don't carry guns.
When they tell you to stop so they can ticket you, just laugh at them and ride away, it's not like you'll have a license for them to track you down.
Who do you know who has been held in jail without medication? I've witnessed hundreds of bookings. The first question the detention officers here ask is "Are you on any medication?" If the detainee answers in the affirmative, he is placed in medical isolation until the claim can be verified and the medication can be administered. It is against the law to do otherwise.
In August, at the pre-RNC Critical Mass, there were at least a few folks who were without their medicationand while they were, in fact, isolated, there was little apparent effort to verify their medical status or provide them with medication. It is my recollection that at least one of the three people in medical isolation who I saw with my own eyes went over twelve hours without the situation being resolved.
The Nazi thing is stupid and lowers the level of the discussion. NYC cops have actually not been brutal physically at any CM that I've seen. Doesn't make me like them any more suddenly think they're ggod guys or anything, but I haven't seen them beat of pepperspray anyone which seems pretty common out west.
But...
this should serve as a reminder that the City is pissed.
This bill may not impact your life, but if they want to bad enough.. they can. If you want to shoot yourself in the arse, be my guest.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
I said it on the other forum,
No Way Will the NYPD enforce this (they have enough contractual problems with NYC and the mayor)
They NYPD and police officers union is under contract negotiations with Bloomberg and this has gone to state arbitration.
They are not going to expend any extra effort to enforce bull**** laws like this, believe me, no matter how much Cops hate bicyclists, if it requires extra work (meaning paperwork, hassling with angry cyclists), they aren't going to waste their time.
Cops have had enough with NYC's bureaucratic mess as the regular populace have.
That's a FAct Jack.
The problem with what you say here is that it assumes some things about cops that aren't true, namely that they actually make decisons on their own. They may do this when they're off duty, but I have never met a policeman who was doing something of his own initiative. The culture of the NYPD is a bureaucracy, and policmen make as few decisions and engage in as little creative thought as they can get away with. It's a culture where, given the choice between a safe choice and a smart choice, the safe choice wins every time. Until they actually strike, they will follow orders, no matter how absurd.
And don't fool yourself. Cops LOOOOOOOOOOOVE their overtime.
By the way, if this bill does become law, you won't be dealing with Cops, but with Meter Maids who don't carry guns.
When they tell you to stop so they can ticket you, just laugh at them and ride away, it's not like you'll have a license for them to track you down.
CM cyclists are neck-in-neck with al Queda on the NYPD's hit list. Critical Mass is a threat to everything we hold dear as Americans and Ray Kelly will crush them in his meaty Irish paw like the bugs they'll be reincarnate as, after letting them cool their heels at Gitmo-on-the-Hudson for a day or two.
Operation Atlas is the biggest waste of time and money as currently practiced. It amouts to paying cops to stand around and smoke cigarettes under bridges at time and a half.
It is my recollection that at least one of the three people in medical isolation who I saw with my own eyes went over twelve hours without the situation being resolved.
Okay... I will accept as truth what you say you have seen with your own eyes. However, coney was talking about 15 days without medication, which sounds unreasonable to me.
Although this is really off the point of this thread... if a person knows he might need his medication during the next twelve hours, wouldn't it make sense for him to take his medication with him when he climbs on his bike?
Almost as bad as Crooklyn.
You're just jealous that queens doen't have a cool nicname like "CROOKLYN"
Laika,
Crooklyn Native.
Okay... I will accept as truth what you say you have seen with your own eyes. However, coney was talking about 15 days without medication, which sounds unreasonable to me.
That's true, and I don't think that would happen.
Although this is really off the point of this thread... if a person knows he might need his medication during the next twelve hours, wouldn't it make sense for him to take his medication with him when he climbs on his bike?
Do you think diabetics would be allowed to keep syringes in their cells with them? And once property (like bags and the contents of your pockets) gets vouchered, do you think cops are going to be inclined to go find your property, get out the medicine, revoucher and reseal the property, etc, etc?
Also, I met a lot of guys in jail in August after CM who had just gotten caught up in the sweeps. One guy lived on 7th Street and was cycling home from work in a business suit with a briefcase. He'd just moved from Philly and couldn't prove he lived in the neighborhood, so whoops! into the kitcat with the riffraff! Now what if he were a diabetic? He hadn't planned on being in jail because he wasn't part of CM at all. But because of the arbitrary and heavyhanded nature of the sweeps, people (like that guy, and restaurant deliverymen, etc, etc) get caught up in something they had nothing to do with. Unless you mean to suggest that everyone should leave the house in the morning expecting to be arrested and detained for over 12 hours & plan accordingly, which would demand a larger discussion about what kind of country we want this to be. (I'm not saying that's your opinion, but taken to its furthest possible extreme, this is one possible result.)
This might be worthy of a different (political) thread, but I do think a lot of non-NYers don't realize how different NYC is since 9/11. Life here has really changed on a day to day basis. I don't think all of those changes are good or neccesary, and cyclists have gotten caught up in the political tension that's come of it. So if you're from out of town and don't understand what the big deal is, probably you're at least partly right. This is a pretty small thing, but it's one of a lot of very small things which have made the city less livable in the last four years. So probably we're reacting to that as well as to this specific boneheaded proposed bill.
You're just jealous that queens doen't have a cool nicname like "CROOKLYN"
Laika,
Crooklyn Native.
Queens nickname: The Least Cool borough in NYC next to Staten Island
I give up.
Good luck, guys,
Umm I am going to just say a couple of things then join sunrider and let you guys argue this to death.
First , no prisoners are not allowed to keep syringes in their cells. But that is why they have infirmary's. They are required to provide prisoners with any medications that they are on (legal of course). Being arrested and thrown in jail for a misdemeanor is rarely a death sentence so stop trying to pull on people's heartstrings it doesn't work.
Why don't you try to keep your arguments on a realistic level instead of all this hyperbole? It doesn't do anything for your cause when you exaggerate the situation.
So I am off to enjoy an otherwise dull day ;)
Some news articles about CM.
http://www.thevillager.com/villager_79/aftercourtloss.html
http://www.nypress.com/17/45/pagetwo/newshole4.cfm
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/14/MNG3M9R9EG1.DTL
This thread has really veered off course. Sorry for my roll in it. Maybe we should get back to the main topic: mandatory bike registration and license plates.
I just read the daily *news* oped article (here (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/253732p-217248c.html) ) and I feel kind of guilty and angry at the same time.
I am certain I am one of those cyclists that scares the crap out of his fellow New Yorkers on a daily basis. I do just about everything this article accuses us of doing...except I never ride on sidewalks.
I ride against traffic and I blow through red lights and stop signs. I do it everyday, frequently, but cautiously.
But I am so very careful with pedestrians. I treat them the same way I would like motorists to treat me, as I believe I am as big a threat to them as cars are to me.
I am sorry if I scare them, but when I do, it is only because they are not paying attention.. they cross the street with the comfort that all the cars are immobile, stuck in traffic. They cross the greenway (bike path for non New Yorkers) and don't even look while I am coming at them, riding at 25mph... They ignore the signs that say "walkway" and insist on walking on the wrong side on the Brooklyn Bridge... So I yell, "on your left" or "yo", every five seconds, and I know I scare a few of them...everyday. I even hit a jaywalker the other day... we both went down... and she apologized profusely.
So I am not a perfect gentleman bike rider, but I am not an "out of control" cyclist either; I have a wife and a baby daughter, and despite what I may hear after this post about the risks of riding in the city, I am careful...
I guarantee every single one of you out there who has never ridden more than a month in NYC, that you would ride the way I do if you lived here too...
If they want to catch all the *bad* cyclists in the city, they should start by having more cops on bikes:
a) they would feel our pain
b) they would be in much better shape
c) maybe motorists and pedestrians alike would pay more attention to us...
O.
So is anyone going to do anything about this? And if so, what? (Just curious to see if anyone is going to act on this). If you've already responded that you sent the email / made a phone call, obviously don't respond...
Umm I am going to just say a couple of things then join sunrider and let you guys argue this to death.
First , no prisoners are not allowed to keep syringes in their cells. But that is why they have infirmary's. They are required to provide prisoners with any medications that they are on (legal of course). Being arrested and thrown in jail for a misdemeanor is rarely a death sentence so stop trying to pull on people's heartstrings it doesn't work.
Why don't you try to keep your arguments on a realistic level instead of all this hyperbole? It doesn't do anything for your cause when you exaggerate the situation.
So I am off to enjoy an otherwise dull day ;)
Could not agree more! Cycling s/b for enjoyment not driven by a fight. If you don't want to register yourself and your bike and claim yourself as a REAL advocate for the sport then move on. I would gladly pay $50 to register myself and my bike as legit. Surely that cup of angst has cost you more.
Think about it.
You're just jealous that queens doen't have a cool nicname like "CROOKLYN"
Laika,
Crooklyn Native.
Well if you go with the theme of apending a C... you get Cueens... ewww...
Well if you go with the theme of apending a C... you get Cueens... ewww...
wow! i didn't think you could do it, but you've effectively lowered queens one more notch on the borough popularity scale.
Oh please. You guys can quit yer complainin'. I live in what is possibly the most unpopular borough in the entire city...
I mean, have you ever heard of anyone taking a trip to the Bronx for anything other than that cursed stadium on 161 st? :lol:
Oh please. You guys can quit yer complainin'. I live in what is possibly the most unpopular borough in the entire city...
I mean, have you ever heard of anyone taking a trip to the Bronx for anything other than that cursed stadium on 161 st? :lol:
I grew up on Woodycrest and 162nd st, and at the moment I am trying to get up to the Bronx to see my folks, if ever so briefly. I am not taking any bikes though.
I dont' blame you. In my neighborhood it's okay though. In fact, my current neighborhood is nicer than most of the nieghborhoods I lived in growing up.
Could not agree more! Cycling s/b for enjoyment not driven by a fight. If you don't want to register yourself and your bike and claim yourself as a REAL advocate for the sport then move on. I would gladly pay $50 to register myself and my bike as legit. Surely that cup of angst has cost you more.
Think about it.
But what would you do if every community passed this kind of law? You'd have to put a plate from EVERY ONE of them on your bike or face arrest.
Think about it.
"You'd have to put a plate from EVERY ONE of them on your bike or face arrest. "
Here's the rub: I don't think you could make cyclists who live outside NYC buy a plate, even if they are cycling in NYC. I believe interstate commerce rules would apply. In other words, if I bring my beat up Peugeot into NYC (I haven't, but I've brought bikes into Chicago, DC, and Milwaukee, as well as Hampton/Norfolk), as a Virginia resident, I would not have to buy a plate. Otherwise, you'd be buying a driver's lisence (and plates) in every state you drove in. So this one can be dismissed as hyperbole.
That said, I have a number of problems with bicycle liscencing. Part of it may be living in a city with NO bicycle infrastructure, however, and part of it is the problem of liscencing multiple bikes. Owning thirteen or so roadworthy bikes (I'm not sure), I don't think I'd be hip to paying more in bicycle fees than I currently pay in car fees, especially since riding a bike reduces the wear on the infrastructure when compared to the damage a car does. And reduces the overall cost of said infrastructure, since a bike's footprint is smaller than a car's.
Here's the rub: I don't think you could make cyclists who live outside NYC buy a plate, even if they are cycling in NYC. I believe interstate commerce rules would apply. In other words, if I bring my beat up Peugeot into NYC (I haven't, but I've brought bikes into Chicago, DC, and Milwaukee, as well as Hampton/Norfolk), as a Virginia resident, I would not have to buy a plate. Otherwise, you'd be buying a driver's lisence (and plates) in every state you drove in. So this one can be dismissed as hyperbole.
The reason you don't have to have a driver's license for every state you drive through is because every state has licensing and registration requirements for drivers and automobiles. Those states' laws are considered sufficient enough to not require re-registration.
But if you need to have a registered bike in order to put a bike on the streets of New York City, and you're from New Jersey, and you don't have registration there, where's the corollation?
In other words, drivers licenses and registration move with you state to state because each state's own individual laws are honored in the state you're in for a certain period of time before you have to register in that state.
How does that compare to cycling registration which doesn't even exist in an entire state yet?
Dismissing it as hyperbole based on a false understanding of why drivers licenses and registrations work the way they do does nothing to further your argument.
"You'd have to put a plate from EVERY ONE of them on your bike or face arrest. "
Not only is there the "inter-city" issue. Another problem with this intro is that it really doesn't distinguish between registering the bike and licensing the cyclist. This is evident by the fact that it only applies to cyclists over 16 rather than the size or type of bike.
If it is bike registration, that would mean that every shop that rents bikes would have to register them. If it's a bicycle license, the idea of renting a bicycle to ride in Central Park or for an afternoon by the river, would be a major hassle and practically put an end to this kind of business. Bike stores would have to register bikes just so that customers could take a test ride.
And you can just imagine what would happen if the subway went on strike and everyone dusted off those bikes they stored in their basements, or hanging from their ceilings.
If the City wants to register bicycles, why not register wheelchairs, inline skates, skateboards, scooters, and anything else with wheels that uses public streets?
Stacy
The proposal will fail. Many cities used to have tags or licencses for bikes. As far as I know, they have all disappeared. Until the bicycle is perceived as transportation, any such effort is almost certain to fail. Given that big wars are currently an acceptable way to underwrite our big cars; it isn't going to change soon. A few people are going to have play connect the dots for everyone. I discuss politics
in a non-cycling forum. I can't begin to tell you how far we have to go to connect those dots. But a safe analogy would be a journey of a thousand miles. I took the first step a couple days ago. I joined the League. I am going to join a state, and a local, cycling advocacy organisation soon. There is no spoon.
"...false understanding of why drivers licenses and registrations work the way they do does nothing to further your argument..."
Pretty much the best response to your arguments. It won't stick; interstate commerce rules will apply. Until I am actually a NYC resident, NYC will not be able to tax my bicycle in any way shape or form and make it stick, sorry. This would be like the city of Richmond taxing you. It makes no matter if I ride there; the issue is residence.
A friend of mine had a dog who loved to explore the neighborhood. If the front door was open for two seconds, that dog was out and gone. Because of her city license tags and required "shot" tags, neighbors knew she "belonged" to someone and was not a rabies-infected stray. So, they would take her in and take care of her until the owner came to collect her. Her tag did not mark her as a "criminal", it marked her as a law-abiding dog, and verified WHOSE law-abiding dog she was.
My city has a bike registration program. I have ignored it, because the police only enforce it in minority neighborhoods, and because I am lazy. However, this thread has reminding me of how effective the program has been in both deterring bike theft, and in getting bikes returned to the lawful owners. So, I will be registering the bikes I park in "high risk" locations.
Sometimes, the easiest way to defeat a "bad" law is to propose a better law. If New York City required that bikes with wheels larger than 16 inches ridden on a public street have a registration sticker, and the sticker cost just five dollars, it would be a good deal for bike owners. The city computer would have your bike serial number, your name and phone number. If a thief gets caught with your bike, the registration records would prove that he has stolen your bike, and get your bike returned to you. A good deal for a few dollars.
Sometimes, the easiest way to defeat a "bad" law is to propose a better law. If New York City required that bikes with wheels larger than 16 inches ridden on a public street have a registration sticker, and the sticker cost just five dollars, it would be a good deal for bike owners. The city computer would have your bike serial number, your name and phone number. If a thief gets caught with your bike, the registration records would prove that he has stolen your bike, and get your bike returned to you. A good deal for a few dollars.
An even better law would say that you are exempt from the requirement if you have a valid registration sticker from any state or local government. Otherwise, you'd still need to register your bike in every locality you ride through.
Or better yet, let the cyclists decide whether they want the "protection" of registration.
"...false understanding of why drivers licenses and registrations work the way they do does nothing to further your argument..."
Pretty much the best response to your arguments. It won't stick; interstate commerce rules will apply. Until I am actually a NYC resident, NYC will not be able to tax my bicycle in any way shape or form and make it stick, sorry. This would be like the city of Richmond taxing you. It makes no matter if I ride there; the issue is residence.
Huh? This makes absolutely no sense. If you ride your Richmond-registered bike in NYC, NYC has every legal right to require you to register in NYC, too. I think it's a bad idea, but that doesn't make it illegal. As far as making it stick, if you don't comply, NYC can confiscate your bike and put you in jail.
Not only is there the "inter-city" issue. Another problem with this intro is that it really doesn't distinguish between registering the bike and licensing the cyclist. This is evident by the fact that it only applies to cyclists over 16 rather than the size or type of bike.
Stacy makes a good point. The law applies to bikes owned by people over the age of 16. You could "give" your bike to your five-year-old. The bike would then be exempt from registration, even when ridden by an adult. Likewise, the bike you use only as a trainer in your basement would be subject to this law if you own it. How would this apply to rental bikes owned by corporations? Legally, corporations are "persons," so would a compnay incorporated less than 16 years ago be exempt when a company 16 years or older be subject to it?
It's worth re-reading the bill to see all of the stupid ways it could apply. (http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/textfiles/Int%200497-2004.htm?CFID=7211&CFTOKEN=35582037)
Sidewalk safety
Bronx: Thank you for bestowing upon me the New York Knucklehead Award. If I have to be a knucklehead to speak out on an issue I feel strongly about, so be it. Cyclists who ride on city streets are required to obey traffic laws, but the majority do as they please because they do not fear retribution from the police. It is almost impossible to ticket a cyclist, because most carry no ID. Just the other day, a bicycle messenger making a delivery was killed, in part because he was riding recklessly. Registering bicycles would make our roads safer, protect lives and hold bicycle riders responsible for their actions. Driving a car is a privilege, and there is no reason why riding a bicycle should not be treated the same.
Councilwoman Madeline Provenzano
Unfortunately her facts suck.
The other "part" of the messenger that got him killed was the double-parked delivery truck that the Police ignored.
She also seems to imply that this messenger wouldn't have died if his bike would have been registered, and her premise that a "majority" of cyclists do "as they please" would be nice if it could be backed up by some verifiable fact, not some old lady on Queens Boulevard who saw a guy on a sidewalk once and got spooked.
This should raise the ire of everyone who cycles in New York City, primarily because this "it'll make the streets safer" seems to have no supporting facts behind it. I'd be interested to know how putting a plate on a bike would keep a cyclist from getting doored.
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