Touring - The Perfect Touring Bike

I am thinking of replacing my current old tourer (a converted mountain bike) with a my ideal tourer. The basic consideration would be an upright (I fall off recumbents) with the following equipment:

Long wheelbase steel touring frame (Robert Beckman or similar)
Rohloff 14 speed hub
Disk brakes
Drop handlebars
700C wheels

My reasons are as follows:

Frame: Comfort, cost and strength
Rohloff: Great gear range, no maintenance, no problems, 20" to 100" range
Disks: Have you ever checked your rim temperature after a long descent?
Drop handlebars: Have used them for 50 years and would be uncomfortable with anything else
700C wheels: Better selection of tires in Europe and the USA

The only difficulty in the above (apart from $$$$) is fitting a Rohloff changer to drop handlebars as Rohloff is designed for straight handlebars only.

The frame needs to be custom built or modified to get the correct dropouts for the Rohloff and the proper disk brake braze ons.

Has anybody built this configuration?

Brian.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/team-triplet/TTimages/2004/P8088447.jpg

SJS does this currently...

Here is their address http://www.sjscycles.com/

Tell Robin Thorn I sent ya... by the way, just email Robin your phone # and he'll call you from the UK on his own dime and talk to you at length about your needs. He's a pretty fantastic fellow.

Thorn appear to make a nice touring bike including the Rohloff, but no disk brakes. It would be expensive to modify the bike after purchase. As they are made in Taiwan I assume you cannot specify additional braze on's.

Brian.

How about a surly 1x1 single speed frame? I can't remember if they have braze-ons for a rack though. Too bad you can't get the LHT with track ends.

tim

Thorn appear to make a nice touring bike including the Rohloff, but no disk brakes. It would be expensive to modify the bike after purchase. As they are made in Taiwan I assume you cannot specify additional braze on's.

Brian.

SJS will probably add a front disk brake as a custom job. The Rohloff can handle a rear disk brake but you probably wouldn't need one there anyway. I can just imagine the cost of this bike. Considering the high British Pound Sterling and VAT, I suspect this bike will be over 2K easily.

If it was my nickel, I'd go with the Waterford Adventure bike. I test rode one. It's like riding a tank. Of course, a bike with Rohloff hubs and discs will be even heavier. I was at a stop light this summer on the last day of a 5 day tour. My bike weighed about 40 pounds total.
Coming the other way was a group of camping cyclists. The light turned, and I watched this guy stand on the pedals and crank and crank and crank, and finally the bike got over 5 mph. He was headed up the coast; I can't imagine what it was like for him in the midcoast hills.

The cost of a Rohloff hub is about a thousand dollars, give or take. But the cost of the best deralleur (XTR) is about the same. However, a Rohloff gives you a wide based, undished wheel which is much stonger than a 9 speed deraileur. And the disks are light years ahead of any vee or cantilever brake.

Agreed the weight is a little heavier, maybe a pound or two for the discs and Rohloff. But compared with a 70 lb loaded touring bike it is insignificant. The weight of the person touring will lose that amount on the first day :)

I think $2,000 is not a great deal to pay for a tourer that is superior to anything else you can find. That would buy you a fairly mediocre road bike. Now if I can just find the money............

You are quite correct that $2K is not much to pay for a world class tourer. It's a steal. :eek:
If the Rohloff is a grand, that leaves you a grand to buy a frame and the rest of the components.... Sounds like 3 grand is closer to your ballpark. It would be a rugged bike, no doubt.
Wonder how easy you can find parts for a disc brake in Mongolia?
If you took a frame like the Waterford Adventure (it's the only one of that type I have tried) and built it up Rivendell style it would be damn close to unbreakable. If you built it up with seven speed components it would be insanely tough. And you could get parts most anywhere. It would also get you down close to $2K. It's overkill outside the 3rd world, IMHO. Personally, I want to ride in France, to pedal across Italy and the wine region of California. Mongolia can keep it's mutton. There is a wonderful book, one of my favorites, called 'After you Marco Polo'. She describes rancid yak butter with stomach churning accuracy. Oh yum.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/007057040X/qid%3D1100737542/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-2396248-3016930

The cost of a Rohloff hub is about a thousand dollars, give or take. But the cost of the best deralleur (XTR) is about the same. ............

you sure about those prices???

the rohloff is about a grand. this replaces an xt derailler $50, a
really good phil wood hub $300 and cassette $50.

additional cost for rohloff to basic build is around $600.

With a Rohloff you only need a single chainwheel. If you are going to have the equivalent to a Rohloff for your derailleur I would assume an XTR which would include a triple, brake lever shifters, rear derailleur, cassette and hub, about a thousand dollars at Performance.

You are quite correct that $2K is not much to pay for a world class tourer. It's a steal. :eek:
If the Rohloff is a grand, that leaves you a grand to buy a frame and the rest of the components.... Sounds like 3 grand is closer to your ballpark. It would be a rugged bike, no doubt.
Wonder how easy you can find parts for a disc brake in Mongolia?
If you took a frame like the Waterford Adventure (it's the only one of that type I have tried) and built it up Rivendell style it would be damn close to unbreakable. If you built it up with seven speed components it would be insanely tough. And you could get parts most anywhere. It would also get you down close to $2K. It's overkill outside the 3rd world, IMHO. Personally, I want to ride in France, to pedal across Italy and the wine region of California. Mongolia can keep it's mutton. There is a wonderful book, one of my favorites, called 'After you Marco Polo'. She describes rancid yak butter with stomach churning accuracy. Oh yum.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/007057040X/qid%3D1100737542/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-2396248-3016930

I believe you are right, 3 grand is closer. And my idea of roughing it is riding through Southern France. Mongolia, and rancid yak butter!!!! Not for me.

Brian.

To my mind the further you are away from home and/or populated areas the more "bombproof" boils down to "easy to replace" and not quite so much "can't or won't break down".

The Speedhub is a marvel of engineering and invention to be sure but I wouldn't have one on my tourer for all the Tea in Istanbul ;) Nor would I have disc brakes as well.

I'm in the last phases of having my dream-tourer made for me... as we speak or type that is, it's a cats whisker away from going to paint. This is the final stage of a very long, year and one half voyage for me. And the beginning of what will soon be another, even longer voyage... a very long one indeed. A 7 year world cycling tour.

It seems I've sifted through more info and asked more questions than my poor, 41 year old brain will ever be able to recall or remember but I have learned and retained quite a bit too along the way. Speaking to my poor business/financial strategies (read-draining bank account & none to pleased wife) I've owned/ridden (however briefly) just about every 'mainstream' on up to high end semi-custom produced tourer out there. Hell, I even owned a Thorn eXp for 2 weeks that was built specifically for me and shipped a quarter of the way around the world to get to me, and then sent back because it wasn't right for me.

In the end and for the exact purposes you speak of in your opening post in this thread I went fully 100% custom for the frameset... and no, I'm not talking about most peoples confused definition of Custom... whereby they buy a mass market frameset and pick out kit for it and build it up and call that custom.
I'm talking 100%, the builder uses no stock geometry, asks you what you want, measures you a couple times, watches you ride and then rides your current bike himself, takes notes, snaps photos of you on and off your current bike, etc Custom... that kind of custom. The custom that makes wives get pi$$y watching the checks get written, and written, and written yet again as details get more and more involved.

For kit I went with this axiom-

"Simple, reliable, proven and highly, easily replaceable" Where I could build in "Bomb and Bulletproof" I did where I couldn't (because it simply doesn't exist) I went "highly regarded and easily serviced/replaced".

The Speedhub reports to have zero failures but also-that I've seen or found-has no documentation of multi-year, expedition tours in various conditions with tourers hauling variable amounts of gear over various types of terrain in various types of conditions-you get my point here. Similar can be said of disc brakes. In particular I look at the Speedhub vs. traditional front & rear derailleurs this way-

Traditional gears are going to need to be maintained and if/when they fail there pretty much isn't any aspect of their particular engineering that cannot be serviced and/or replaced anywhere in the world. The very reason they need service and can fail is also the very reason they can be serviced and replaced... they are open and exposed. A Speedhub needs but one aspect of what is a VERY complex internal mech to go south or glitch and it's Game Over. The very reason it shouldn't fail is the very reason that a failure would be massive... it's closed and unserviceable. Add to this, anything that involves moving parts and friction will wear and eventually wear out. That 1 in 1000, or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 chance unsettles me. But that's me, and hey-I used to sweat Santa Claus having a sled failure on Christmas Eve too when I was a little guy! Maybe I'm a born realist... who knows?

Does this mean they aren't good or will fail... nope. Does it mean I want to be the guy to prove it to the world and the particular companies that produce these items? Nope... not unless they are sponsoring me and throwing these items at me for nada.

Whichever way you go... good luck to you and may you have multitudes of miles ahead of you.

Hi,
one of my fantasies is to ask a good builder to make me a titanium Rivendell. That would make a pretty nice touring bike.
I'm a blue collar guy, so that's out of my ballpark. But a good frame is important, and if you can afford something like a Beckman, go for it. My Sis rides with us most of the time, she rides one of my old bikes that I modified extensively to suit her.
It's a 7 speed. I am continually impressed by the ruggedness and practicality of 7 speed. It just won't die. I clean the chain, pump the tires and we go ride. I do most of my riding on my 9 speed lite tourer. I give the system high marks for what it can do. But it's dainty. Can you guess I'm not a big fan of the new 10 speed 'Kleenex' systems? Couple of details, I love my $60 Ritchey Biomax bar. Lite, shock absorbing, tough, and comfy. As long as we're at it, how about one of the titanium railed Brooks saddles?
I like Tubus racks, and my lite tourer has the twelve ounce Tubus Fly. There aren't many touring bikes out there that are 25 pounds including rack, fenders, and speedo.

To my mind the further you are away from home and/or populated areas the more "bombproof" boils down to "easy to replace" and not quite so much "can't or won't break down".

The Speedhub is a marvel of engineering and invention to be sure but I wouldn't have one on my tourer for all the Tea in Istanbul ;) Nor would I have disc brakes as well.

I'm in the last phases of having my dream-tourer made for me... as we speak or type that is, it's a cats whisker away from going to paint. This is the final stage of a very long, year and one half voyage for me. And the beginning of what will soon be another, even longer voyage... a very long one indeed. A 7 year world cycling tour.

It seems I've sifted through more info and asked more questions than my poor, 41 year old brain will ever be able to recall or remember but I have learned and retained quite a bit too along the way. Speaking to my poor business/financial strategies (read-draining bank account & none to pleased wife) I've owned/ridden (however briefly) just about every 'mainstream' on up to high end semi-custom produced tourer out there. Hell, I even owned a Thorn eXp for 2 weeks that was built specifically for me and shipped a quarter of the way around the world to get to me, and then sent back because it wasn't right for me.

In the end and for the exact purposes you speak of in your opening post in this thread I went fully 100% custom for the frameset... and no, I'm not talking about most peoples confused definition of Custom... whereby they buy a mass market frameset and pick out kit for it and build it up and call that custom.
I'm talking 100%, the builder uses no stock geometry, asks you what you want, measures you a couple times, watches you ride and then rides your current bike himself, takes notes, snaps photos of you on and off your current bike, etc Custom... that kind of custom. The custom that makes wives get pi$$y watching the checks get written, and written, and written yet again as details get more and more involved.

For kit I went with this axiom-

"Simple, reliable, proven and highly, easily replaceable" Where I could build in "Bomb and Bulletproof" I did where I couldn't (because it simply doesn't exist) I went "highly regarded and easily serviced/replaced".

The Speedhub reports to have zero failures but also-that I've seen or found-has no documentation of multi-year, expedition tours in various conditions with tourers hauling variable amounts of gear over various types of terrain in various types of conditions-you get my point here. Similar can be said of disc brakes. In particular I look at the Speedhub vs. traditional front & rear derailleurs this way-

Traditional gears are going to need to be maintained and if/when they fail there pretty much isn't any aspect of their particular engineering that cannot be serviced and/or replaced anywhere in the world. The very reason they need service and can fail is also the very reason they can be serviced and replaced... they are open and exposed. A Speedhub needs but one aspect of what is a VERY complex internal mech to go south or glitch and it's Game Over. The very reason it shouldn't fail is the very reason that a failure would be massive... it's closed and unserviceable. Add to this, anything that involves moving parts and friction will wear and eventually wear out. That 1 in 1000, or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 chance unsettles me. But that's me, and hey-I used to sweat Santa Claus having a sled failure on Christmas Eve too when I was a little guy! Maybe I'm a born realist... who knows?

Does this mean they aren't good or will fail... nope. Does it mean I want to be the guy to prove it to the world and the particular companies that produce these items? Nope... not unless they are sponsoring me and throwing these items at me for nada.

Whichever way you go... good luck to you and may you have multitudes of miles ahead of you.

Well, Mr Tea, I wish you well on your World tour. And, of course, your equipment (proven, bombproof, etc) is the correct approach. If your derailleur goes South, you can always turn your bike into a single speed to you get to a bikeshop. If your freewheel pawls give out, you can make new ones out of your brake cable (as I have done). My idea (at my advanced age) of an adventurous tour is to be camping in the South of France instead of staying in hotels. I will never be more than 50 miles from a bike shop.

If I was 41, I might go with you.

Goodluck.

Brian.

But even for more "civilised" touring, I would stay away from disc brakes and Rohloff hub.

No disc brakes because, so far, disc brakes tend to enter in conflict with racks and panniers. Or at the very least, if you go that way, make sure you have a decent rack and panniers that are sturdy, fit the bike and don't interfere. I am sure there will be better solutions in a few years, but right now, the Old Man Mountain rack isn't as sturdy as the Tubus Cargo rack, for example.
As for disc brakes vs rim brakes, touring is an application where you hardly use the brakes -- compared to commuting, for example. Good cantilever or v rim brakes with Kool Stop Salmon pads work great and don't interfere with either front or rear racks.

Rohloff hub. Two aspects I like about derailleur gearing is that you can customise your own cassette and that you doN't need to stop pedalling (nor even to ease up that much) when you shift. Shifting the Rohloff isn't as transparent as shifting a derailleur-based bicycle (esp. for rear shifts). The advantage of a Rohloff hub is in stop and go traffic, not in touring.

No disc brakes because, so far, disc brakes tend to enter in conflict with racks and panniers. Or at the very least, if you go that way, make sure you have a decent rack and panniers that are sturdy, fit the bike and don't interfere. I am sure there will be better solutions in a few years, but right now, the Old Man Mountain rack isn't as sturdy as the Tubus Cargo rack, for example.
As for disc brakes vs rim brakes, touring is an application where you hardly use the brakes -- compared to commuting, for example. Good cantilever or v rim brakes with Kool Stop Salmon pads work great and don't interfere with either front or rear racks.

Did you miss where he said:


Disks: Have you ever checked your rim temperature after a long descent?

I don't think he's going to be swayed from having disc brakes. When I build my commuter/touring bike, I'm going to go with disc brakes myself.

I had a Rohloff hub on a Bike Friday and noticed that it increased drag compared to standard derailleur. I was warned about the slight loss of efficiency before I ordered it but thought it wouldn't matter. It did, at least to me. The advantages may outweigh the drawbacks, but think it over carefully.

Who cares how hot your rims get after a long descent if you're not having problems.

I've ridden my loaded tourer down a hillside where I coasted, without pedaling once, for 28 minutes. I had no problems with my heated rims. Just because a rim gets hot doesn't mean it's going to cause problems.

I think sometimes we tourers overanalyze and embellish situations that don't cause us problems.

Did you miss where he said:
Originally Posted by Blacktom
Disks: Have you ever checked your rim temperature after a long descent?


Well I did, back in the days when we had centrepull brakes and found them hot once. With current v-brakes, I never had warm rims on the road, even during my last tour with a trailercycle in tow. Total weight was 150 lb for the bicycles, plus 225 lb of human flesh, and we descended quite a few bumpy hills that were 3-4 km long at 12-15%, including one with an unannounced oblique railroad track at the bottom.

The only time I came close to having a problem was on a 3-km descend of Côte-des-Neiges Street and Atwater Avenue in Montréal, with the trailercycle and child trailer in tow, and with panniers and trailer full of groceries. Estimated weight of about 100 lb for the bicycle plus 275 lb for humans plus another 80 lb for groceries. And that hill runs between 5 and 10 % and at the time pavement was so rough I had to limit my speed to 15 km/h in many places. Still, the front rim was hot, but not at burning temperature, and the rear rim was just warm. Now that they have repaved the worst sections, the rims stay cool all the time because I ride it at 25-40 km/h (terminal speed would be around 65 km/h, I think).

Only brake problems I ever had were the pads overheating, not the rim, and that was dealt with by fading from the front to the rear to the front....ad infinitum, until I reached the bottom.

If your worried about brake failure, why not run both v-brake and disc. If you use bull bars on your bike, you could mount them on the bull bars. Given it's a bit clunky, but at least you have v-brakes to fall back on if your discs fail for whatever reason and you cant find replacement parts. If you use drops, you can mount the levers up near the stem.

http://www.mountainbike-expedition-team.de/Greenland/greenland.html

see above for rohloff info. bunch of nuts, crossing greenland in the winter.

http://www.tilmann.com/ and a world tourer, i think sponsered by the factory.

different subject: rim overheating on long 20-mile descents, or on short ones
with switchbacks. if i'm using the brakes more than usual, i'll stop occasionally to
check the rims & tires. if tires have become too hard, and road surface permits,
let some air out. a little water on the rims will cool them some.

if you're going custom, you can have the frame built to accept a tandem rear
with a hub brake to provide drag on descents.

I tour mostly on the tandems, the bike, riders and gear can add up to lbs and rim overheating is a real danger on even a slight grade.

But disk brakes have there own limits as to heat, the disk can over heat and warp, if its a sealed hydraulic system the oil can over heat causing the oil to expand and make the pads drag on the rotor. I've had disks lock up due to over heated oil. As well as the problem of getting parts for them on tour.

The drum brake is the way to go for a loaded tandem, it will stand up to much more heat then any disk.

I may be tempted to use disks on single touring bike, but only mechanical with 203 mm rotors.(Avids work well) But then you still have the problem with getting parts if needed. It should be rare that you may need parts other then a cable or a set of pads when on tour. So toss a set of pads in your bags before you leave.

Geared or Rohloff hub? I've worked with Rohloff hubs, taken apart cleaned and adjusted the mech. Rolhoff has very good support for their products. (lots and lots of little bits, I would not want to do it on the side of the road) It is a very well made hub and it should be for the price. Thats the biggest reason I don't have one the price. I build up all my bikes with XT and 105 parts for the most part.

I guess my point would be its your bike, build it how you want it.