General Cycling Discussion - bikes direct bikes... whats the deal

Hi everyone,

I am always suprised to see so much hype on BF about bikes direct bikes. Do people that work for bikes direct post a lot? Are the bikes really good? I see a lot of stuff for Motobicane specifically. I guess I am just suprised because there is generally a push for people to use their LBS... If you respond, let me know if you are a bikes direct (or related company) and if that influences your posts. Just curious.

NFI, Myself, they are one of the advertisers Google charges, to display their ads.

maybe computer IT people hate bike shops.

I've purchased from them. The price was pretty damn good and since putting a bike together doesn't intimidate me, it all worked out for the best.

I purchased a GT. I don't know if the Motobicane stuff is good, but it looks nice and I think frame manufacturing has gotten to the point where frames don't get screwed up too often. The rest of the equipment is the same stuff you'd find on a Trek, Diamonback, Giant, etc, etc, etc.

No business relationships with Bikes Direct.

meangreen, For the most part cyclists would prefer to use their LBS, the last few year's economy and the resulting diminished disposable income have cyclists looking elsewhere for new bikes. Those that have bicycling related mechanical skills can save quite a bit of money by performing the final assembly themselves, required with BD bikes.

Nashbar is another company that can provide quality parts at a deep discount. While more piece-part than BD, cyclists can spec every part to their taste. Using their touring frame and fork seems very popular.

I have no formal relationship with any bicycling related company.

Brad

Depends. If you can do your own wrenching and have the proper tools, a BD bike can be a good deal.

Hi everyone,

I am always suprised to see so much hype on BF about bikes direct bikes. Do people that work for bikes direct post a lot? Are the bikes really good? I see a lot of stuff for Motobicane specifically. I guess I am just suprised because there is generally a push for people to use their LBS... If you respond, let me know if you are a bikes direct (or related company) and if that influences your posts. Just curious.

I don't know what you've been reading but there have always been mixed opinions about BD. I don't think everyone is sold on the idea.

Bikes Direct...sells Direct. You get a bike that needs work. You have to set it up, go through and make sure everything is greased and adjusted. If something is broken or missing YOU have to deal with Bikes Direct and work out the issues.

Buy a bike from your LBS, it costs a bit more, however it should come set up, adjusted and ready to roll. They will help you choose the correct size, swap stems and seat posts around for you and many other things. Quite often a bike shop will offer a free 30 , 60, 90 day or in some cases longer free checkup/tuneup to take care of the things that need it after the first bit of riding. If you have issues with broken or damaged parts, they will have been taken care of before you bought the bike, and you have somewhere to go to get a defective part replaced under warranty. Yes can save a few dollars, it is your decision as to what your time is worth and your skill level.

Most of the time a person that has no clue about bicycles or how to work on them comes here and wants to know about Bikes Direct. Those people would be better served by going to an LBS. Someone that is experienced with bicycle sizing and knows their components and wants will do better.

Aaron :)

I've posted before that my primary objection to BD is their business model. They buy the rights to the names of some venerable older bike manufacturers (some that are no longer in business) in an effort to gain some cache from the moniker. That strikes me as slightly disingenuous. Other companies, from Nashbar/Performance to Fezzari and Neuvation, make up their own names, which seems a little more honest to me. Otherwise I have no problems with BD, or any of them, as long as customers understand what they're getting. By that, I mean in addition to a bike they'll have to wrench themselves, they're also becoming part of the economic equation that fewer sales at the LBS can lead to the LBS's ultimate disappearance.

Things may be different where you are, but here I have not found bike shops to be too helpful or honest when selling bikes...



Buy a bike from your LBS, it costs a bit more, however it should come set up, adjusted and ready to roll.

Like my friend's bike that broke 4 spokes in three months? The shop was charging him $25 each time to fix the spokes. When I heard about it, I simple checked the spokes with my hand and they were so loose that you could turn the nipples by hand. BTW, 36 spoke wheels on a mountain bike that he rode slowly on smooth roads.


They will help you choose the correct size, swap stems and seat posts around for you and many other things. Or do what they can to sell you what they have instead of what you need. Like swapping out the 100mm Specialized stem for a generic 60mm stem on my cousin's road bike to make an oversized bike fit.

Or convince the friend above to buy a full suspension mountain bike to ride on the road and paved bike paths.

I'm sure that there are lots of good and honest salespeople at shops out there. I just have not been impressed with my experiences at several shops around here. YMMV

the two big things novice buyers need to be aware of when going the BD.com route is sizing and set-up. if you know you're bike size and have a fair bit of bicycle wrenching know-how, then you can get some really good deals on bikes through BD.om. if you don't know how to match your body dimensions to a frame geometry chart and are intimidated by some of the more intricate aspects of bicycle maintenance/repair, then you will be better served going to a QUALITY LBS with knowledgeable staff who can get you on to the right bike. the word quality is bolded because, as a previous poster mentioned, not all LBS's are equal. i've had dealings with many bike shops here in chicago, and the level of knowledge, skill, and honesty varies WILDLY from shop to shop. some shops are actually interested in being full-service bike shops to get people onto the right bike and to keep them happy riding the bike for years to come. and some shops just want to move inventory out the door; they really don't care about any of the other aspects of being a full-service bike shop.

having said all that, i do own a motobecane BD.com bike. i've had my le champion SL Ti for a little over a year now and i absolutely love it. it has been a joy to ride and extremely trouble free (knock on wood). i did buy one of their higher end models, so my results may not be transferable to some of their entry level bikes, but overall, i would have to say that i am extremely satisfied with my BD.com purchase.

and no, i am not employed in any capacity in the bicycle industry; i'm just a humble little architect who commutes by bicycle everyday.

and no, i am not employed in any capacity in the bicycle industry; i'm just a humble little architect who commutes by bicycle everyday.
And, might I add, have one of the greatest forum names ever. I'm a huge Steely Dan fan.

I own a BD bike. It's a great bike, and I had a positive experience purchasing my bike through them. However, that doesn't mean it would be the best route to go for everyone. There was a certain amount of work involved assembling, tweaking and fitting my bike. Some people don't have the knowledge and or interest in doing this, and in those cases BD wouldn't be the best route.

For me, the assembly, tweaking and fitting was part of the fun. When I was a kid, my parents quickly figured out that I was happier if they didn't assemble my Christmas gifts for me, as I loved putting things together more than I loved playing with the toy itself.

As far as the objection to their marketing tactics, I respect people's right to hold that opinion. For me, though, it's no big deal. I doubt there's too many people that recognize the Motobecane, Mercier, Windsor, etc brands from years ago, and think (or care) that they are the same company producing the same bikes today. Companies and company names are bought and sold regularly. It happens all the time in the world of consumer products. Harley Davidson, Indian and Fender are other companies that immediately spring to mind where the company has changed hands several times and their current products evolved with the new company, yet I don't hear anyone making the same complaint that their current products share little heritage with the original ones.

As far as the objection to their marketing tactics, I respect people's right to hold that opinion. For me, though, it's no big deal. I doubt there's too many people that recognize the Motobecane, Mercier, Windsor, etc brands from years ago, and think (or care) that they are the same company producing the same bikes today. Companies and company names are bought and sold regularly. It happens all the time in the world of consumer products. Harley Davidson, Indian and Fender are other companies that immediately spring to mind where the company has changed hands several times and their current products evolved with the new company, yet I don't hear anyone making the same complaint that their current products share little heritage with the original ones.

I think that's a valid point, though to me it's more applicable to the companies you mentioned, where they're bought out by another company with the purpose of carrying on the original company and continuing to propogate its product lines. I don't see that as BD's intent, which appears to me to be spec'ing out a frame from a generic pacific rim shop and bolting parts to it. I admit, though, that it's a fine distinction, and one that's easily blurred by the realities of today's global economics. Many "real" bike companies do the same. I just feel better knowing that somewhere there's a building with the same name over the door that's on the bike frame, where you can walk in and bother someone who gets a paycheck from an organization with that same name. ;)

Love my BD bike,but it's one of the nicer models. I bought it second hand off eBay because it had the mods I liked(disc brakes,wheelset),but I'd buy another one since no shop is going to sell me a ti bike for that price. As for them reusing old names,my Motobecane is awesome. It does everything I want it to do,is my second favorite bike,and with the parts spec it's either equal or perhaps even higher quality than the originals. If anything I'd say it improves the name's cache.

If you object to BD's business model, you object to modern capitalism period. Pick any mainstream product and you'll find all kinds of cross branding, licensing, contract manufacturing, etc. Old brand names are bought and sold in all industries, all the time.

This is not your father's Oldsmobile.

If you object to BD's business model, you object to modern capitalism period. Pick any mainstream product and you'll find all kinds of cross branding, licensing, contract manufacturing, etc. Old brand names are bought and sold in all industries, all the time.

This is not your father's Oldsmobile.
Hope you brought a jacket, because it's gonna get frosty...
Man your post was so, so, so to the point and cut and dry. When you make a post like that you just can't argue, I like that writing!

If you object to BD's business model, you object to modern capitalism period. Pick any mainstream product and you'll find all kinds of cross branding, licensing, contract manufacturing, etc. Old brand names are bought and sold in all industries, all the time.

This is not your father's Oldsmobile.

You're right, and given the knowledge and opportunity, I tend to avoid those products and companies when I can.

If you object to BD's business model, you object to modern capitalism period. Pick any mainstream product and you'll find all kinds of cross branding, licensing, contract manufacturing, etc. Old brand names are bought and sold in all industries, all the time.

This is not your father's Oldsmobile.

How true. I used to fix consumer electronics and you'd be surprised how many Zenith TVs were also a Panasonic, Sylvania, etc, etc, etc.

The practice of buying out high end companies and then cutting costs with Asian labor is very common in car audio. RockFord Fosgate may have an office in the US, but ultimately they're just selling rather generic Asian electronics.

That said there is nothing wrong with objecting to the way modern capitalism works. Lets not forget modern capitalism brough us the "mortgage meltdown" while making millionaires of the very people most responsible for the meltdown.

I don't object to the business model.

But I feel that the buyers need to be extremely comfortable in knowing their size and ability to assemble the bike and have the proper tools necessary. I have worked in a bike shop for a many years as a mechanic and have no problem with the assembly of the bike but I don't have certain tools (and they are pretty expensive) and may need to take it to an LBS to do some of the work.

The main reason that I would not buy a bike from BD is that I don't feel comfortable about buying a bike that that I haven't tried for a fit and test ridden to feel the ride.

You're right, and given the knowledge and opportunity, I tend to avoid those products and companies when I can.

I get it, and I respect that. Unfortunately it's not always easy to know. Take the beer market as an example. The biggest U.S. brewers (AB, Miller, and Coors) are no longer U.S. owned (InBev, SABMiller, Molson Coors). That means that dozens of brands of beer that most people assume are "american" are really owned by foreign interests. That's just one example of how consumers are challenged in knowing who owns/makes/markets what.

And then take Sam Adams for instance....an american beer for sure. But...do they brew much beer themselves? No, they contract that work out to others. SA is a marketing company first. BD is a marketing company, not a bike maker or designer.

The brand names that BD sells mean very little to the general public, and probably very little to avid cyclists under a certain age. I'm 45, and I have no recognition of many of their brand names.

The heart of any bike is the frame. You can bolt parts from any maufacturer onto it- go mad and fit the lightest- most expensive- Best parts onto it and if that frame is not up to the standard of the parts- It will ride at a lower standard. I have never ridden a BD bike and I am shocked at the Low price that they sell their bikes at. Have even seen bikes with Dure Ace- Good quality Mavic wheels and top grade components that are so low in price- that it is worth buying the bike for the components alone. Obviously a high purchasing power for last years production that has now been superceded. Not that that matters as good components will still be good components in 5 years time.

But it is that frame. That will denote how good the bike will be. I do not just mean to the top riders either that have to screw the final bit of performance out of their bikes. Once a bit of experience and ability has been aquired- then a poor quality bike will always be a poor quality bike.

5 years ago I bought my first road bike. Tried several models in both quality and price. I went for the cheapest OCR made in the 3 as I could not tell the difference between that and a TCR2. Two bikes at vastly different prices and quality levels. Within 6 months I was looking for my next bike. My abilities had overtaken that OCR.

BD have a market that they fill. It is for cheap bikes. Unfortunately- untill they start putting all those high end parts onto a good frame- Then that is where they will remain. Cheap in both price and quality. But still suitable for a lot of riders.

BD have a market that they fill. It is for cheap bikes. Unfortunately- untill they start putting all those high end parts onto a good frame- Then that is where they will remain. Cheap in both price and quality. But still suitable for a lot of riders.
FWIW: I own five bikes, and of all of them my BD bike has my favorite frame.

BD have a market that they fill. It is for cheap bikes. Unfortunately- untill they start putting all those high end parts onto a good frame- Then that is where they will remain. Cheap in both price and quality. But still suitable for a lot of riders.

I understand that we all live within different economic realities, but from the perspective of my station in life, I absolutely do not classify the $2,000 purchase of my BD.com Motobecane as "cheap". I do consider the purchase to be an incredibly good value, but in my world, 2,000 bones is a significant amount of dinero regardless of what it's being spent on.

My titanium frame is a work of art to admire (the welds are like metallic pornography) and an utter joy to ride. I've had it for over a year now and put over 5,000 miles on it, and do not expect I will ever outgrow it. Failing a wreck, I do not anticipate ever needing to replace it. It is an excellent frame; the only thing it really lacks is snob appeal.

When it comes down to it, buy as local as you can. Do you think any online vendor is going to support your local job? Your money goes out of town, leaving less in it.
This goes for buying your contact lenses and glasses also.....ahem! :)

But I don't begrudge someone building up a bike buying online at all. Just support your local guy when you can.

I bought a Bikes Direct bike. I knew that the brand (Motobecane) that I was buying was not the authentic Motobecane. Just a decal, ya know?

I was buying a bike that I thought may have been just a "temporary" bike, as it was to ride on a several-mont out-of-town work assignment, so I was looking for something cheap but with a better size selection than I could get at China-Mart. Also, as I kind of like retro stuff, I was looking for either bar-end or downtube shifters and a retro-looking steel or aluminum frame.

I ended up with this.......

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/tpelle/Motobecane_Bike/IMG_0405.jpg

........and ended up liking it so well I spent $150.00 to ship it home after the end of my work assignment.

I always suspect that some of the BD bashers are LBS owners or employes.

i heard good reviews but im really pissed right now because they said there were low stock on the bike i wanted to buy and i had to complain to them to make them put it at OUT instead of low stock.

I understand that we all live within different economic realities, but from the perspective of my station in life, I absolutely do not classify the $2,000 purchase of my BD.com Motobecane as "cheap". I do consider the purchase to be an incredibly good value, but in my world, 2,000 bones is a significant amount of dinero regardless of what it's being spent on.

My titanium frame is a work of art to admire (the welds are like metallic pornography) and an utter joy to ride. I've had it for over a year now and put over 5,000 miles on it, and do not expect I will ever outgrow it. Failing a wreck, I do not anticipate ever needing to replace it. It is an excellent frame; the only thing it really lacks is snob appeal.

I would say the same thing. I also don't consider my $1500 BD cheap. I'll put it next to any bike at any LBS in the same price range. I have a Ti/Rival lechamp. Although I've only put a few hundred miles on it as it's pretty new, it's an excellent bike. The build quality is as good as I've seen. The parts/spec list is also very good value. The fact that I bought it close to the price an LBS shop pays for a similar bike doesn't bother me in the least.

My wife and I also have BD 29er MTBs. Mine has well over a thousand miles on it and has also been an excellent value. It's an XT bike and performs as well as any other XT 29er. It just costs a bit less, but comes with no service. I'm ok with that.

Although we like to dream that there is all this really complex engineering in our rides, the reality is that bikes are very simple machines. A much much more complex motorcycle can be purchased new for less than many bicycles. A bicycle can be entirely assembled from a pile of parts in a few hours (except the chain if you had 500 pieces...). There are relatively little material costs. The profit margins in bicycles are HUGE. When you have a product that requires roughly $150-200 in raw materials $100 in labor and sells for $5k+, there's no reason to think a half priced bike can't be built with the same quality.

i heard good reviews but im really pissed right now because they said there were low stock on the bike i wanted to buy and i had to complain to them to make them put it at OUT instead of low stock.

You probably should deal with your LBS instead of BD or any other on line merchant if simple stock status issues are going to disturb you that much.

You probably should deal with your LBS instead of BD or any other on line merchant if simple stock status issues are going to disturb you that much.

lol it's not that............well i guess it is that but i been waiting for awhile to get a road bike.Spent countless hours online and on here trying to soak up as much info as i can and while doing all this i kept checking to make sure it was in stock which i assumed it was because it said low inventory not out of stock.Not to mention i went from basically no knowledge to a pretty good amount.Came time to get the actual bike and it still said low stock and not out of stock.I went to check out and it told me there was none in stock.I would also go and support my LBS but i just dont get as much as i can.Come a bike with 105 rear derailleur and tiagra shifters and front derailleur for 600.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/dawes/lt2300_x.htm

[QUOTE=wahoonc;13037739]Bikes Direct...sells Direct. You get a bike that needs work.

Buy a bike from your LBS, it costs a bit more, however it should come set up, adjusted and ready to roll.
<snip>
Yes can save a few dollars, it is your decision as to what your time is worth and your skill level.

"a few dollars"? I smile;

I've been studying the ads for months now. BD offers bikes with components that would be through the stratosphere in price at a LBS. The savings are not just a 'few bucks', but at least 50% on just about everything they offer [some substantially more].
In my 'price range' (what I can afford), I could never even consider a dura ace bike...or with top notch Kysrium wheels to boot...but automatically be led to the 105's with triplecoque CF and manufacturer hubs at the LBS (and even they costing an arm and leg).

I want to support my LBS...I really do. But BD allows me to dream upon things otherwise out of my reach. At the kind of prices BD offers, I find it hard to justify anything else...with service, fitting, or warranty etc. You're talking thousands of dollars of difference for a top performance level bike. Is 'service, fitting, and warranty' worth 'thousands' of dollars? And of course, there's the name game [brand name]. But by everything I've read, there is nothing lacking in Motebecane or the other bikes BD sells [like Kestrel], but only 'name recognition'.

Not sure why I'm hawking BD's virtues here, since I haven't even ordered from them. I guess I'm appreciative of the 'inclusive feeling' I get [that I can now afford, and thusly dream upon, bikes I formally had no business even thinking about]...and also a bit of resentment in realizing the markup that name brand bikes apparently recieve at our 'expense'. I always like the comparison some make that bikes today cost more than a car, ha. Brings it home you see. Ever wonder why you can buy cheap auto tires for what you pay for bike tires? Markets are what they are I suppose; but it don't add up IYAM.

Still, I want to support my LBS. But not to be stupid about it either.

BD.com vs. LBS doesn't really have to be an either/or proposition - I had my Motobecane Sprint shipped directly to an LBS...they charged me $50 or whatever to assemble and test...I ended up buying shoes, cages, bottles, and so forth there in the store. They missed out on a low-margin bike sale but made solid margins on goods and services, and my bike has been trouble-free in the year since - the LBS even tuned it up for free this past spring.

IMHO, the problem with BD isn't value (folks frequently criticize their frames on BF, but never present anything in the way of evidence); it's their seemingly random supply chain management. Their stock situation for popular-sized bikes can be so hit-or-miss that it comes across as a bait-and-switch (that is; the $900 Aluminum-carbon-105 bike is advertised but sold out except for 48cm, but hey, while you're here, the $1900 carbon-Dura-Ace bike is fully stocked). It's not really an apples-to-apples shopping experience when I can go get whatever Trek I want today at the LBS, but for the BD bike I need to get on an email list and then wait / hope / pray for some inventory.

That said, my Moto was exactly what I hoped for and I continue to love to ride it...

I always suspect that some of the BD bashers are LBS owners or employes.

And likewise I always suspect that the posts that praise BD are shills for the company.....

People used to look down on Giant as a step below becaues of their price point or where they were made. Not me mind you, I appreciate the value both companies offer. Have you seen many owners complaining about the quality of their BD frames?

Don't own one but by next bike might be from BD either a CX or touring bike.




BD have a market that they fill. It is for cheap bikes. Unfortunately- untill they start putting all those high end parts onto a good frame- Then that is where they will remain. Cheap in both price and quality. But still suitable for a lot of riders.

Bikes Direct...sells Direct. You get a bike that needs work.

Buy a bike from your LBS, it costs a bit more, however it should come set up, adjusted and ready to roll.
<snip>
Yes can save a few dollars, it is your decision as to what your time is worth and your skill level.

"a few dollars"? I smile;

I've been studying the ads for months now. BD offers bikes with components that would be through the stratosphere in price at a LBS. The savings are not just a 'few bucks', but at least 50% on just about everything they offer [some substantially more].
In my 'price range' (what I can afford), I could never even consider a dura ace bike...or with top notch Kysrium wheels to boot...but automatically be led to the 105's with triplecoque CF and manufacturer hubs at the LBS (and even they costing an arm and leg).

I want to support my LBS...I really do. But BD allows me to dream upon things otherwise out of my reach. At the kind of prices BD offers, I find it hard to justify anything else...with service, fitting, or warranty etc. You're talking thousands of dollars of difference for a top performance level bike. Is 'service, fitting, and warranty' worth 'thousands' of dollars? And of course, there's the name game [brand name]. But by everything I've read, there is nothing lacking in Motebecane or the other bikes BD sells [like Kestrel], but only 'name recognition'.

Not sure why I'm hawking BD's virtues here, since I haven't even ordered from them. I guess I'm appreciative of the 'inclusive feeling' I get [that I can now afford, and thusly dream upon, bikes I formally had no business even thinking about]...and also a bit of resentment in realizing the markup that name brand bikes apparently recieve at our 'expense'. I always like the comparison some make that bikes today cost more than a car, ha. Brings it home you see. Ever wonder why you can buy cheap auto tires for what you pay for bike tires? Markets are what they are I suppose; but it don't add up IYAM.

Still, I want to support my LBS. But not to be stupid about it either.

Be aware that there are trade offs. I purchased a BD bike as a donor bike with no intention of riding the bike. I just needed the parts. It really didn't save me any money to purchase the bike that way since many of the parts that I wanted weren't all that great. I used the Ultegra shifters and derailers as well as the wheels and that's about all.

The fork was a carbon fiber but it had a steel steer tube. A straight up aluminum fork would have been lighter and I'm not sure a steel fork wouldn't have given it a run for its money. The 'carbon' post was a carbon wrapped aluminum post that was heavier than most cheap posts. The brakes weren't anything to write home about and the crank bearings were so tight in the bottom bracket that I had to use a pipe wrench to take them off, destroying them in the process. I couldn't find compatible replacement bearings for the crank and had to get an entirely new crank. The bars were okay but not really to my liking - Ritchey Biomax bars aren't all that comfortable. The stem was too short so I need a new stem. The headset wasn't anything to write home about either and I hadn't planned on using it anyway.

Basically, my 'donor bike' parts cost me $800 which is a chunk of change to pay for a set of Ultregra shifters, Ultegra derailers and a set of wheels.

As a complete bike, I wasn't all that impressed either. Nothing really all that special and certainly not worth the $1600 they claimed the bike was worth.

Basically, my 'donor bike' parts cost me $800 which is a chunk of change to pay for a set of Ultregra shifters, Ultegra derailers and a set of wheels.

As a complete bike, I wasn't all that impressed either. Nothing really all that special and certainly not worth the $1600 they claimed the bike was worth.

maybe it depends on the BD bike you buy. my Le Champ SL Ti seems like it was a pretty good deal on the components.

below are google search prices, better deals can of course be found through sales on the interwebs, but this is what came up in a 2 second search.

Mavic Ksyrium Equippe wheel set - $450
vittoria rubino pro III tires - $80
ultegra 6700 crank - $250
ultegra 6700 cassette - $60
ultegra 6700 chain - $40
ultegra 6700 FD - $50
ultegra 6700 RD - $90
ultegra 6700 brifters - $230
ultegra 6700 brakes - $150
105 SPD-SL pedals - $70
ritchey WCS ergo bars - $70
ritchey WCS stem - $50
ritchey WCS seatpost - $70
ritchey pro saddle - $65
FSA IS2 headset - $50


so that totals up to $1,775. i paid $2,000 for the bike, so i got a beautiful Ti frame and full carbon fork for ~$225. not too bad, especially considering that the bike came 90% assembled. others have said that BD's frames are cheap and crappy, but i honestly don't see it in the frame i have. as i said before, the only thing my frame lacks is snob appeal. snob appeal is CRITICALLY important for many riders, but i just can't be bothered to care about that kinda stuff.

and more importantly, there's just no way in hell that i could have bought a complete Ti bike spec'ed out with all of the above from an LBS that comes anywhere close to $2,000. if your LBS is selling Ti bikes with full ultegra drive trains and Ksyrium equippe wheelsets for 2,000 clams, then i want to start going to your LBS.

I got a "bargain" mail order bike a few years ago. Remember Ibex? The parts alone were almost worth the asking price, so who cares if the frame is mediocre? Well, it was a MTB and that frame broke eight miles from the trail head in a national forest an hour before dark. Not my happiest time in the great outdoors. After getting my money back from Ibex, I bought a Titus that cost 50% more, but rode better, looked better, etc. I think you get exactly what you pay for with these bikes and others like them. I did a head to head comparison between the BD $2000 CF Ultegra model and my $3000 Giant OCR C1, which I paid $2700 for new. It is highly debatable if the savings amounts to much at all in this case. Granted, my Giant is a 2007 model, but the current equivalent is very similar and lists for $3200. My Giant came with better wheels and has the most comfortable road frame I have ever ridden. How much is that worth? I've bought and sold a few high end bikes, and I can tell you that the name means plenty if you ever decide to sell it.

It's all in the parts, eh? A frame is a frame...Really? Those frame designs are all from 10 years ago or more, and that says nothing about the quality of manufacturing. It doesn't make much sense to wax ecstatic over the parts when the main part is a complete generic of unknown quality. What about warranty? Does it matter? If the company isn't around for the long run, the warranty is just so much more marketing.

I got a "bargain" mail order bike a few years ago. Remember Ibex? The parts alone were almost worth the asking price, so who cares if the frame is mediocre? Well, it was a MTB and that frame broke eight miles from the trail head in a national forest an hour before dark. Not my happiest time in the great outdoors.

Weird. I have two IBEX bikes - one Ignition that I built myself, just got a good deal on the frame when they went out of business for a while. I ride it hard on some pretty technical singletrack here in the east, and I'm a clyde. No problems. My daughter is on a IBEX Alpine 500, ridden much easier, but no problems there as well.

IBEX had a pretty decent following on mtbr - despite issues with the Ignition frame design that resulted in the front derailler hitting the chainstay when the shock bottomed out. There are ways around that, and I rarely have the problem wiht mine.

IBEX is back in business with different owners, some new bikes, some of the same lineup as before.

BTW, I ride with a guy who broke his very expensive Titus frame at the dropouts. Same trails my IBEX is on, so all makers have problems. I believe IBEX frames are fine, same with Titus frames, same with BD frames.

When it comes down to it, buy as local as you can. Do you think any online vendor is going to support your local job? Your money goes out of town, leaving less in it.
This goes for buying your contact lenses and glasses also.....ahem! :)

But I don't begrudge someone building up a bike buying online at all. Just support your local guy when you can.

So to support the local LBS I buy a Fisher mt. bike, made by Trek and with GF pretty much not involved. Or a Trek with Bontrager wheels ? and is Keith really involved as well ?. I did buy my Lemond frame at my LBS, but Greg's entire road geometry concept was long gone at that point. It replaced a Klein, also purchased at the LBS, with Gary gone as well.

And how about a Schwinn ?. That's not a mail order, yet also hasn't been owned by a Scwinn family member in a decade ?. They all went and started Waterford.

Just sayin' and I do support my LBS, but I know what I'm buying.

I got a "bargain" mail order bike a few years ago. Remember Ibex? The parts alone were almost worth the asking price, so who cares if the frame is mediocre? Well, it was a MTB and that frame broke eight miles from the trail head in a national forest an hour before dark. Not my happiest time in the great outdoors. After getting my money back from Ibex, I bought a Titus that cost 50% more, but rode better, looked better, etc. I think you get exactly what you pay for with these bikes and others like them. I did a head to head comparison between the BD $2000 CF Ultegra model and my $3000 Giant OCR C1, which I paid $2700 for new. It is highly debatable if the savings amounts to much at all in this case. Granted, my Giant is a 2007 model, but the current equivalent is very similar and lists for $3200. My Giant came with better wheels and has the most comfortable road frame I have ever ridden. How much is that worth? I've bought and sold a few high end bikes, and I can tell you that the name means plenty if you ever decide to sell it.

It's all in the parts, eh? A frame is a frame...Really? Those frame designs are all from 10 years ago or more, and that says nothing about the quality of manufacturing. It doesn't make much sense to wax ecstatic over the parts when the main part is a complete generic of unknown quality. What about warranty? Does it matter? If the company isn't around for the long run, the warranty is just so much more marketing.


I've personally seen a broken Madone 5.2 that my buddy ownes - owned... Trek did replace for free, but it still left him walking. Treks are all crap! I've never had a problem with any of the 3 Motobecanes I own, which have made many trips around the slickrock trail - which is a graveyard for lots of bikes - as well as many trips around the northern Utah mountains with a 200+ lb rider. I've never seen a broken Motobecane frame.

By this logic Motobecane >>> Trek.

A LOT of mountain bikes come out of Kinesis factory. If you've never done so, get on the Kenisis website and build your dream frame. You can just pick from a bunch of pre-drawn options for practically every part of the frame. It seems kinda hard to believe that a lot of cost goes into aluminum mountian bike frames when there are about 3 factories in Taiwan that produce 95+ percent of aluminum frames. Basically a buyer can just select from a set of pre-drawn forms. You pick a material, extrusion size and/or formed tube shape for your top, down, and seat tubes, http://www.kinesis.com.tw/formedtubes/toptubes/images/T169A.JPG Then you select your stays: http://www.kinesis.com.tw/stays/seat_stays/IMAGES/SF2.JPG, A bottom bracket, head tube, and some dropouts and order it up. IIRC large orders get you to around $30-50 per frame.

Then you choose a fork and groupo or a mix of various components and you've got yourself a bike.

Or they offer a list of pre-made options. I kinda like this one: http://www.kinesis.com.tw/frames/main_pictures/A670_2011.jpg

Are all mail-order bikes the same? Probably not. Just like all bike shop bikes vary. I'm simply not buying the idea that there is some type of secret technology or costs that bike shop bikes are using that are unique. While I agree that there is value to be offered by LBS, I don't buy into the argument that bikes should be as expensive as they are or that you cannot buy a high quality bike from an online seller.

One thing about BD is that they don't offer a relaxed geometry frame, like say a Roubaix, RS, Synapse, etc., or if they do it's hard to tell from the published specs. At least the Kestrels spec stack and reach, but Motobecanes don't.

Weird. I have two IBEX bikes - one Ignition that I built myself, just got a good deal on the frame when they went out of business for a while. I ride it hard on some pretty technical singletrack here in the east, and I'm a clyde. No problems. My daughter is on a IBEX Alpine 500, ridden much easier, but no problems there as well.

IBEX had a pretty decent following on mtbr - despite issues with the Ignition frame design that resulted in the front derailler hitting the chainstay when the shock bottomed out. There are ways around that, and I rarely have the problem wiht mine.

IBEX is back in business with different owners, some new bikes, some of the same lineup as before.

BTW, I ride with a guy who broke his very expensive Titus frame at the dropouts. Same trails my IBEX is on, so all makers have problems. I believe IBEX frames are fine, same with Titus frames, same with BD frames.

Actually, it isn't weird. I was told by the infamous Jack from the original Ibex that they recalled the Apogee frames because of a manufacturing issue. Mine was just one of many.

Actually, it isn't weird. I was told by the infamous Jack from the original Ibex that they recalled the Apogee frames because of a manufacturing issue. Mine was just one of many.

Ok - must have been an early model or something - don't recall that being on their website when I bought bikes there. Don't know who bought them, but hopefully they'll do better this time around.

Are all mail-order bikes the same? Probably not. Just like all bike shop bikes vary. I'm simply not buying the idea that there is some type of secret technology or costs that bike shop bikes are using that are unique. While I agree that there is value to be offered by LBS, I don't buy into the argument that bikes should be as expensive as they are or that you cannot buy a high quality bike from an online seller.

Holy obfuscation, Batman! What does any of that prove about BD? Show me where the equivalence point is between BD frames and any brand you care to choose. Are we supposed to believe that these are the best frames in the world? They have the latest designs, zero defect manufacturing, and the last word in fit and finish? They certainly don't look it.

I've had 2 BD bikes... the first was my first road bike (2002 Fuji Finest AL) which I actually bought on craigslist... I probably over paid but I was new to cycling, eager to have a bike, a little clueless. overall though, the bike served me well and i passed it on to my brother for what we felt was a fair price.

the second is a 2010 Dawes SST-AL. I bought it last year and love it. It rides nice and has been solid. All the crap that the naysayers bring like the rims coming out of the box with loose spokes and out of true and stuff needing major adjustment was not true in my case. It was my primary bike in 2010 (hence me selling my Fuji to my brother) and I put many miles on it. I haven't ridden it as much this year b/c I got my Felt and quite frankly, I haven't ridden any bike much at all this year. It definitely took the backseat to the Felt (difference between a $2k bike and a $370 bike) but it still has its place and each time I ride it is just as fun as the first time I rode it.

I'm no BD spokesperson but I don't hesitate to tell people that I had a positive buying experience and really enjoy the product that I got. The price was right, the bike is exactly what I was looking for, and if my Dawes disappeared tomorrow, I'd have another on order before going to bed.

IMHO, the problem with BD isn't value (folks frequently criticize their frames on BF, but never present anything in the way of evidence); it's their seemingly random supply chain management. Their stock situation for popular-sized bikes can be so hit-or-miss that it comes across as a bait-and-switch (that is; the $900 Aluminum-carbon-105 bike is advertised but sold out except for 48cm, but hey, while you're here, the $1900 carbon-Dura-Ace bike is fully stocked). It's not really an apples-to-apples shopping experience when I can go get whatever Trek I want today at the LBS, but for the BD bike I need to get on an email list and then wait / hope / pray for some inventory.

That said, my Moto was exactly what I hoped for and I continue to love to ride it...

exactly,as my other post said i was ranting about inventory but a couple days later i got lucky and they restocked the size i needed.

Holy obfuscation, Batman! What does any of that prove about BD? Show me where the equivalence point is between BD frames and any brand you care to choose. Are we supposed to believe that these are the best frames in the world? They have the latest designs, zero defect manufacturing, and the last word in fit and finish? They certainly don't look it.

No one has zero defect manufacturing. The highest precision manufacturing of mechanical items is probably at an automobile plant. Even if you CT scanned every frame - like Toyota does with it's Aluminum castings which I doubt any bike maker would spend the $ to do - you would likely miss defects if there were an issue with a sheet of your carbon, or especially if you had an issue with your epoxy.

Your point? (Seriously, I have no idea where you were going with this)

I don't think they claim to have the worlds best frame... as if such a thing exists. They make - imagine this- an adequate frame for a wide variety of riders at a competitive price. That's really all that's claimed. The same can be said for the Cavalo frames and probably a lot of others.

And that's the "equivalence point" you're looking for. It performs the function that it was intended for. A bike that's adequately light weight, rides well, and is reasonably durable. The rest is simply fluff. Cool colors and fancy shapes, if your ego drives you, go for it. They don't make a bike better.

I DO know that carbon layup is not particularly difficult. Carbon fabric or roving is easy to source and is not particularly expensive. Carbon epoxies are also relatively easy to source and not particularly expensive in quantities needed to build a road bike frame.


What is somewhat humorous is that you apparently have bought into the hype that some other brand is the "best frame in the world" as you put it... without any verification of that. The reality is that you can't say your frame is better or worse than a BD frame, although you probably paid a lot more for it right? (I assume deep down you actually believe it's better - blind faith is a wonderful thing) Did the extra money increase your enjoyment? I'm sure your LBS was pleased with your choices. I hope you enjoy riding it.

Holy obfuscation, Batman! What does any of that prove about BD? Show me where the equivalence point is between BD frames and any brand you care to choose. Are we supposed to believe that these are the best frames in the world? They have the latest designs, zero defect manufacturing, and the last word in fit and finish? They certainly don't look it.

No one has zero defect manufacturing. The highest precision manufacturing of mechanical items is probably at an automobile plant. Even if you CT scanned every frame - like Toyota does with it's Aluminum castings which I doubt any bike maker would spend the $ to do - you would likely miss defects if there were an issue with a sheet of your carbon, or especially if you had an issue with your epoxy.

Your point? (Seriously, I have no idea where you were going with this)

I don't think they claim to have the worlds best frame... as if such a thing exists. They make - imagine this- an adequate frame for a wide variety of riders at a competitive price. That's really all that's claimed. The same can be said for the Cavalo frames and probably a lot of others.

And that's the "equivalence point" you're looking for. It performs the function that it was intended for. A bike that's adequately light weight, rides well, and is reasonably durable. The rest is simply fluff. Cool colors and fancy shapes, if your ego drives you, go for it. They don't make a bike better.

I DO know that carbon layup is not particularly difficult. Carbon fabric or roving is easy to source and is not particularly expensive. Carbon epoxies are also relatively easy to source and not particularly expensive in quantities needed to build a road bike frame.


What is somewhat humorous is that you apparently have bought into the hype that some other brand is the "best frame in the world" as you put it... without any verification of that. The reality is that you can't say your frame is better or worse than a BD frame, although you probably paid a lot more for it right? Did the extra money increase your enjoyment? I'm sure your LBS was pleased with your choices. I hope you enjoy riding it.

Your point? (Seriously, I have no idea where you were going with this)

What is somewhat humorous is that you apparently have bought into the hype that some other brand is the "best frame in the world" as you put it... without any verification of that. The reality is that you can't say your frame is better or worse than a BD frame, although you probably paid a lot more for it right? (I assume deep down you actually believe it's better - blind faith is a wonderful thing) Did the extra money increase your enjoyment? I'm sure your LBS was pleased with your choices. I hope you enjoy riding it.

Here's where I'm going with this: you want us to believe that BD is giving us a free lunch, and I'm here to say that I strongly doubt it. It's not because my Dad told me there are no free lunches, or that I'm old enough and experienced enough to have bought and sold a variety of things over the years. It's because BD is a business, which, like any other business, offers a product at a particular price point, and there is no business sense in making that product any better than it needs to be.

In the case of BD, there are some distressing reasons to suspect they don't need to be very good. They have no tradition, reputation, or legacy to uphold. What assets do they have to lose if lawsuits are brought against them? If things start going south for them from warranty claims, bad word of mouth or whatever, what happens? Do they just dry up and disappear?

Let's just say for the sake of argument that their frames don't break any more often than average, although I doubt that anyone knows for certain. So what? My brother hasn't broken his lower end $299 Trek MTB either, but that doesn't make it an enthusiast level bike. And that is the crux of the problem I have with these "bargain" bikes. People like you would have us believe that just because there is an Ultegra derailleur, you are getting an integrated Ultegra level bike, and I just haven't seen any evidence of that. What I can see is that in spite of your vague and unconvincing arguments for their manufacturing quality, the frame designs are straight out of Yesterday.

Next you are going to tell me that BD is doing us a favor by cutting out middle men. Prove it. How, pray tell, does one sell Chinese made frames with Japanese made parts in the USA factory direct? You don't. It's marketing. The very idea is a non sequitur. When I bought my Turner MTB frame, I spoke with the dealer, and they spoke with Turner. Since we don't call the Far East to inquire about BD bikes, it's obvious that BD isn't selling bikes any more direct than many others.

While we are at it, I might as well mention that you obviously haven't read my other posts. I've done the math comparing BD bikes with my own bikes. The best I can say about BD is that you get what you pay for, if you are lucky.

I've done the math comparing BD bikes with my own bikes. The best I can say about BD is that you get what you pay for, if you are lucky.

That's an interesting statement considering your whole arguement was "you get what you pay for...."

My experience was good. I got a GT Nomad for ~$270, that bike was going for ~$400 at the LBS. I could have probably talked them down to $350, so I saved $80 by going thru BD and putting the bike together my self. It was worth a few hours of my time.

I seriously doubt you're getting a $2000 bike for $1100, but that's how all sorts of stuff is marketed. What do Trek, GT, et al do - the give us an MSRP that is always inflated, so we can feel like we got a deal at the dealer. IOW Bikes Direct is far from alone, but I do think there are deals to be had there, just like there are deals on Craigslist or the LBS.

Here's where I'm going with this: you want us to believe that BD is giving us a free lunch, and I'm here to say that I strongly doubt it. It's not because my Dad told me there are no free lunches, or that I'm old enough and experienced enough to have bought and sold a variety of things over the years. It's because BD is a business, which, like any other business, offers a product at a particular price point, and there is no business sense in making that product any better than it needs to be.

In the case of BD, there are some distressing reasons to suspect they don't need to be very good. They have no tradition, reputation, or legacy to uphold. What assets do they have to lose if lawsuits are brought against them? If things start going south for them from warranty claims, bad word of mouth or whatever, what happens? Do they just dry up and disappear?

Let's just say for the sake of argument that their frames don't break any more often than average, although I doubt that anyone knows for certain. So what? My brother hasn't broken his lower end $299 Trek MTB either, but that doesn't make it an enthusiast level bike. And that is the crux of the problem I have with these "bargain" bikes. People like you would have us believe that just because there is an Ultegra derailleur, you are getting an integrated Ultegra level bike, and I just haven't seen any evidence of that. What I can see is that in spite of your vague and unconvincing arguments for their manufacturing quality, the frame designs are straight out of Yesterday.

Next you are going to tell me that BD is doing us a favor by cutting out middle men. Prove it. How, pray tell, does one sell Chinese made frames with Japanese made parts in the USA factory direct? You don't. It's marketing. The very idea is a non sequitur. When I bought my Turner MTB frame, I spoke with the dealer, and they spoke with Turner. Since we don't call the Far East to inquire about BD bikes, it's obvious that BD isn't selling bikes any more direct than many others.

While we are at it, I might as well mention that you obviously haven't read my other posts. I've done the math comparing BD bikes with my own bikes. The best I can say about BD is that you get what you pay for, if you are lucky.
So you have no basis for claiming that a BD frame isn't better than your bike? Got it.

Could you explain what has changed in carbon technology in the past 10 years? You have a "modern" looking frame that you have no basis for claiming is better than another design, but since the company you bought it said it was good, you bought it? Ok. If that makes you happy, I say go for it. To put down another model because it doesn't look as "modern" as yours? That's kinda silly IMO when you have no basis other than it doesn't look cool.

Next, where is it exactly that you think the components are put on the frames? In America? Guess again. Do you know how far Taiwan is from Tokyo? Google earth it. (Are you really arguing that because components come from a different factory than assembly that the assembly factory is the "bike factory"? If you had a GM shipped to you from a warehouse would you not consider that factory direct if the a/c compressor was built in Ohio? Odd argument but we'll go with it.)

How do you save money? I'm not sure I really need to spell this out, but here goes; how much do you think a brick and mortar bike store costs to run? Where do you think this money comes from? How do you think bike stores run 20-30% off sales at the end of the year and still make money? Do you think it's possible that bike shops mark up the bikes they buy and sell them to you at a profit? I suppose if someone put them in a warehouse in Texas and shipped them directly to the buyer they might be able to save some money.

Maybe not. Maybe BD is making a killing on cutting out the LBS?