"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Are they all just bitter...

...or are they validating Lemond's POV? Merckx AND Moser speak out about LA and the Velo d'or.

www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/nov04/nov19news

so in the story just below that about the world hour record behind a derny: does the derny rider get any credit? or just the bike rider. seems kinda like teamwork would be important.

How many races per year does Lance participate in?

I think that if Lance rides in more races this year, and does well, it will make some of these people change their minds.

We shall see I guess.

But Don, Lance survived cancer!!!

But Don, Lance survived cancer!!!

So did my Ma ... can't get her on a bike though :D

...or are they validating Lemond's POV? Merckx AND Moser speak out about LA and the Velo d'or.

www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/nov04/nov19news

Yes, they are bitter.
20 tours? is he kidding? Merckx is a moron. A moron blessed with an incredibly high lactate threshold.

moser said if everyone raced like armstrong cycling would have to close up shop. start packing cuz pretty much everyone does in one way or another, wether its dedicating themselves to the one day races liek bettini and rebelin or dedicating yourself to a grand tour armstrong, simoni, and heras. armstorng only gets beefed at cuz he wins the most prominent race. why isnt heras criticised or simoni or ullrich(believe it or not he doees put everything into the tour) or hamilton or everyone in the top ten of a grand tour. lets face it nobody races 100 days a yr anymore.

But Don, Lance survived cancer!!!

You sound bitter...

...or are they validating Lemond's POV? Merckx AND Moser speak out about LA and the Velo d'or.

www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/nov04/nov19news

translating from Flemish and Italian to English...

"If they had paid us then what they pay today in winnings and the ability to raise millions in terms of personal sponsorships, we'd have done the same thing. We would not have had to have ridden so much.
Too bad we didn't think of it."
:D :eek:

you don't see any cool stuff like this anymore though, thats for sure. Athletes are bloodthirsty these days!
http://parts.spicercycles.com/site/images/library/catalogs/soc/prodl/MA3391.jpg

why isnt heras criticised or simoni or ullrich(believe it or not he doees put everything into the tour) or hamilton or everyone in the top ten of a grand tour.

Ullrich raced long after Lance had hung up his bike for the season. Heras won the Vuelta after competing in the TDF.

moser said if everyone raced like armstrong cycling would have to close up shop. start packing cuz pretty much everyone does in one way or another, wether its dedicating themselves to the one day races liek bettini and rebelin or dedicating yourself to a grand tour armstrong, simoni, and heras. armstorng only gets beefed at cuz he wins the most prominent race. why isnt heras criticised or simoni or ullrich(believe it or not he doees put everything into the tour) or hamilton or everyone in the top ten of a grand tour. lets face it nobody races 100 days a yr anymore.




Sure Bettini and Rebellin have their specialties, every athlete does. But most of the Peleton shows up at the starting line for lots and lots of races that are not their specialty. They are there for a variety of reasons, from contractual obligations, to make a living, or simply for the love of competing, like Eric Zabel for example.

Zabel races the entire calender year, start to finish of the regular pro season, and in the off season? He's a trackie, and a Madison racer.
He races the six-day circuit all around Germany. The Guy is simply an amazing athlete.

Ekimov is another, the guy has been racing for over 20 years now. He doesn't win or place very often, but he is still going strong, will Lance be racing when he is 39?

When critics say Lance doesnt give back to cycling, they not ignoring the fact that everyone in the US rides a TREK, Big Effin' Deal! They are talking about the Millions of dyed in the wool Cycling fans around the world, who are not able to travel to the TdF, and will never get to Armstrong race. Fans who will still be fans after LA has retired, because they love the sport, and are its true backbone.

Lance has won his fair share of "exhibition crits" too, but those don't count as major placings or results..



Here's some of Eddy Merckx's 525 victories....

In 1974 he won the Giro, the Tour de France, the Tour of Switzerland and the World Championships.


Here is the abridged version

(5 Tour de France wins (35 stage victories and 96 days in Yellow)
5 Giro di Italia Wins (25 stage victories)

3 Victories @ Paris-Roubaix
5 Victories @ Liege Bastogne Liege
7 Victories @ Milan-San Remo)

1965: 2nd Belgian Road Race Championship
1966: 1st Milano - San Remo, 1st Baracchi Trophy (with Ferdi Bracke), 1st Tour du Morbihan + 2 stages
1967: 1st Milano - San Remo, 1st Gent-Wevelgem, 1st Fleche Wallonne, 1st World Road Race Championship, 1st Baracchi Trophy (with Ferdi Bracke), 1st Ronde des Korrigans, 1st Prix d'Armentieres, 1st Grand Prix Salvarini, 1st Circuit du Tournaisis, 1st Wavre-Nandrin, 1st Prix de La Panne, 1st Prix de Sint Lenaarts, 1st Brabant Championship, 1st Prix de Liedekerke, 1st Prix de Simpelveld, 1st Prix d'Enter, 2nd Super Prestige Pernod, 2nd Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 3rd Ronde van Vlaanderen, 7th Giro di Lombardia, 8th Paris-Roubaix, 9th Giro d'Italia + 2 stages, 10th Paris-Nice + 2 stages
1968: 1st Giro di Sardinia, 1st Paris-Roubaix, 1st Giro d'Italia, 1st Gran Premio Cynar Lugano, 2nd Grand Prix of Forli, 4th Super Prestige Pernod
1969: 1st Paris-Nice, 1st Milano - San Remo, 1st Ronde van Vlaanderen, 1st Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 1st Tour de France, 1st Super Prestige Pernod
1970: 1st Tour de France,1st Paris-Nice, 1st Gent-Wevelgem, 1st Tour of Belgium, 1st Paris-Roubaix, 1st Fleche Wallonne, 1st Giro d'Italia, 1st Belgian Road Race Championship, 1st Super Prestige Pernod
1971: 1st Tour de France, 1st World Road Race Championship, 1st Giro di Sardinia, 1st Paris-Nice, 1st Het Volk, 1st Milano - San Remo, 1st Tour of Belgium, 1st Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 1st Giro di Lombardia, 1st Super Prestige Pernod
1972: 1st Giro d'Italia, 1st Tour de France, 1st Milano - San Remo, 1st Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 1st Fleche Wallonne, 1st Baracchi Trophy (with Roger Swerts), 1st Giro di Lombardia, 1st Super Prestige Pernod, 2nd Belgian Road Race Championship
1973: 1st Giro d'Italia, 1st Vuelta a Espana, 1st Paris-Roubaix, 1st Giro di Sardinia, 1st Het Volk, 1st Gent-Wevelgem, 1st Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 1st Cronostaffeta (3-man team time trail), 1st Paris - Bruxelles, 1st Grand Prix des Nations, 1st Super Prestige Pernod, 2nd Semana Catalana, 2nd Belgian Road Race Championship
1974: 1st Tour de France, 1st Giro d'Italia, 1st World Road Race Championship, 1st Tour de Suisse, 1st Super Prestige Pernod, 2nd Semana Catalana
1975: Milano - San Remo, 1st Ronde van Vlaanderen, 1st Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 1st Semana Catalana, 1st Super Prestige Pernod, 3rd Belgian Road Race Championship
1976: 1st Milano - San Remo, 1st Semana Catalana
1977: 1st Tour de la Mediterranean


Whether you think he's perfect, a spoiled prima donna, a doper etc...
Everyone here has to admit, they would all like it if Lance would compete in more races......

Cycling used to be a sport where most riders came from the lower economic scale. They raced for the love and the money. They were required to ride an enormous amount by their teams. Like all pro sports we now see the influx of highly paid athletes/businessmen...the money generated turns them into a commodity...it really does. They begin to look at everything from a business standpoint rather than a sporting perspective. Whether you agree or disagree... it is what happens.

Lance functions as a corporation first and an athlete second....Mercyx was an athlete first and his palmares shows that...just look above.

The fact that times have changed doesn't make Lance a bad person...just a good business person. However he doesn't hold a candle to the athletic prowess of Mercyx...just look at the statistics, it's laughable to even try and compare.

In Europe people actually attend lots of races. Thats the fan support that ensures the survival of the sport. Thats why the ProTour has been proposed to save the whole sport so that it's not just a few events that survive. Too many stars like Lance will kill the sport for others in the long term and thats just plain selfish.

^^^ excellent post ^^^

What do they have to be bitter about? These guys had great careers, and they can afford to be as opinionated as they want to be. I think they have valid criticisms. Lance is getting awards they don't think he deserves because he basically does two races a year. It's just that we all think LA is above any kind of criticism because he's american, he had cancer and he's won the tour six times. Sorry, but that doesn't make him beyond criticism. Eddy Merckx was in a class by himself anyways; I don't think even lance thinks he's near that caliber. But eddy is saying that lance could certainly win other races if he wanted to; he probably has the same stamina and strength eddy did. What EM is saying that if he'd raced as infrequently he'd have had an even longer career, and he's saying that lance is so hugely strong that he could race ten times more than he does. I doubt EM really thinks he could have raced for 20 years, he's exaggerating, duh.

The comparisons between athletes of different era's is really pointless and at the same time human nature. We can't compare the Gale Sayers of his era to Barry Sanders of his because ALL the players of Barry's era were bigger faster and stronger. This is true of any sport. Ali would be a light heavy weight today. If Merkx and Moser were riding today they would be different riders. They would be making pile more money and they would not have to race crits days after the tour just to make enough money to feed their families. For better or worse times have changed even since LeMonds days.

Many riders take substances that are only legal because the WADA has not discovered them yet. For many years riders took all sorts of drugs from anphetimeans (sp) to moraphine and they were legal. It's all changed in every sport.

You can rightly compare Armstrong to Indurain. Same eras, same type of riders, etc.

You can rightly compare Armstrong to Indurain. Same eras, same type of riders, etc.

Eras close, same type ... not quite. Indurain killed everybody in the TTs and hung on in the moutains. Lance can do both. Both were singularly focused on the TdF as their main goal for each year.

Also, teams that have a singular focus at the TdF (USPS, NOT T-Mobile) know ... to keep the other riders happy, those who show undivided support for 3 weeks, that some of them get a shot at glory in the Classics or other Tours. I think even if Lance did race some of the other races, he'd be happy to see a teammate who helps him in July, win in April and May.

That's the biz now.
It's an era of specialists.
You will NEVER EVER see another speedskater take 5 golds in a single Olympics. Will NEVER happen again.
The phenomena is not restricted to Cycling alone.

Best.

You can rightly compare Armstrong to Indurain. Same eras, same type of riders, etc.

Inderain also won the Giro and the Tour in the same years, twice. He also competed in the Tour of Spain. In his dominance of the Tour he was very Lance like and I feel the way that he treats the sport is the same. He is not hanging about or involved with cycling in but the most modest of ways. I don't hear the old guard complaining about how much Miguel "gives" back to cycling. Then again Big Mig gave many gifts to the lesser riders in way of stage wins....something LA isn't so fond of doing.

Ali would be a light heavy weight today.

Not to be a real stickler for the details (well, okay - I am), but Ali would be a cruiserweight, and only if he decided to cut the weight (something tells me he wouldn't want to do that).

The comparisons between athletes of different era's is really pointless and at the same time human nature. We can't compare the Gale Sayers of his era to Barry Sanders of his because ALL the players of Barry's era were bigger faster and stronger.

This is a great example. When Sayers played in the NFL, players of that era had to have off-season jobs to pay the bills. They went to training camp to get in shape, played 12-14 games, maybe two playoff games.
Now, the money is such that players play in the NFL for their vocation. They go to post-season camps, mini-camps, work out all year long, attend training sessions prior to training camp, and training camp is a formality for putting in the schemes they will use during the season. If you do not come to camp in shape, you are out of a job. Four pre-season games, 16 regular season games in a 17 week season, and typically three playoff games for teams that go to the Super Bowl, four if a wild card team gets all the way to the title game. The season used to end in December. Now it ends in February.
If you can find a copy, go back and read Jerry Kramer's book, "Instant Replay" for a look at Sayer's era.

The main reason bike racers used to race as much as they did, is because they had to.

The comparisons between athletes of different era's is really pointless...
intersting... so we shouldn't waste our breath celebrating armstrong's "historic 6 tdf wins," because it's point;less to compare him to athletes of different eras.

i'm down for that.

intersting... so we shouldn't waste our breath celebrating armstrong's "historic 6 tdf wins," because it's point;less to compare him to athletes of different eras.

i'm down for that.

Actually that isn't what I said. Sure we should celebrate LA's wins but to compare him to Merkx is pointless. The sport has changed and so have the riders. Comparing LA's wins and the riders he's raced is completely right.

Also to the question of what he's given to the sport it's arguable that his success made Trek the company that it is today. To a lesser degree Cannondale can thank LA for getting US made bikes "accepted" in the Euro peleton. Shimamo can thank LA for giving them their first Tour win and having them now be considered on par with Campagnolo. LA may not be all over the sport in body but let's see what happens after he retires he may start his own team or bike co who knows?

To a lesser degree Cannondale can thank LA for getting US made bikes "accepted" in the Euro peleton.

Sorry, not true...If you look at 1997 in the timeline, you will see Cippolini was in yellow at the Tour on a CAAD3 Cannondale (http://www.cannondale.com/passion/timeline/)

Cannondale was active and winning in Europe well before Trek and Lance were doing anything..

Personally, I'm tired of the whole arguement.
Wabbit, I don't think Lance's being American has anything to do with it.
Mateo, good to see you back

I'm going to reserve judgement until after this season at least.
Lance isn't Big Mig who wasn't The Badger who wasn't The Cannibal
who wasn't Anquetil (did he have a nickname?) who wasn't Il Campionissimo

Marty

On further thought, getting back to the original topic
I don't think what Moser and Merckx said is in the
same vein as Lemond. Greg sounds bitter, and his whole arguement seems
to revolve around doping (and that he could have won more tours if
everyone wasn't doping when he returned).
Messrs Moser and Merckx are speaking more of Lance's short season
and his total concentration on the Tour to the exclusion of all other races.

I'm still tired of the whole issue.

Marty

The idea that Merckx or Hinault or whomever, if riding today, would approach the racing season as Lance does seems reasonable on the surface, but it ignores the environmental influences that form individuals.

If Merckx was born on the same day as Lance Armstrong, he would have still been raised in bike racing central, Belgium, and as a child dreaming of being like his idols, he would have wanted to ride classics and win Belgian races, especially Flanders, then P-R, etc.... Plus, the peer group he responded to would have given him lots of pressure to succeed and then positive reinforcement for success in those races, quite possibly as much as lance receives for success in the TDF.

So it would seem more reasonable to believe that he would still race a full schedule.

Hinault, on the other hand, would be more inclined to be the one who would narrow his focus somewhat onto the TDF because that is the most important race in France. Still, since he would be raised with a much deeper racing heritage and broader racing knowledge than US riders, he would no doubt be riding Paris-Nice, French classics, possibly French Cup races, etc..., ie a fuller schedule.

It is quite possible that Italy has never produced a great TDF champion because they have a more insular attitude towards racing. Coppi was a great rider, but his focus was never on the TDF like French riders Anquetil and Hinault.

In America, modern racing fans have had their heads turned towards European racing by Lemond and his TDF wins. This is where their focus has remained, so it is not particularly surprising that that is where Lance's focus is. Who even knows or remembers the unheard of, jaw dropping victory by Lemond when he won the Junior World Championship? How many Lance fans know about his World Championship victory? It is hardly ever mentioned. Who here has heard of American Michael Hiltner and knows of his successful racing in Italy in the 60's? He never won the TDF. ;)

Riders like Bettini, Zabel, Freire, Boogerd, Garzelli, Jalabert, and on and on prove that even though they are rich beyond need, they will still race a full schedule of races, even though their status and bargaining power would no doubt allow them to get by with much less. Even Cipollini wanted to do a full schedule, even though he is a highly specialized talent.

In many ways I think Lance is only doing what he has to do to satisfy his ideas of what success as a bike racer means to him. Nothing wrong with that on the surface, but it does make him appear somewhat one dimensional, even though he is not(IMHO), and leaves him open to what I think is perfectly understandable criticism, considering it's sources.

Excellent post, Don.

Since your average American bike fan is only aware of and/or only really cares about the TDF, it makes sense that an American rider would follow suit.

I've always felt that riders like Bettini, Zabel, et al have a much deeper understanding and respect for the traditions and history of bike racing.

Sorry, not true...If you look at 1997 in the timeline, you will see Cippolini was in yellow at the Tour on a CAAD3 Cannondale (http://www.cannondale.com/passion/timeline/)

Cannondale was active and winning in Europe well before Trek and Lance were doing anything..


This is why I said "to a lesser extent".

[QUOTE=Laggard]Excellent post, Don.

Since your average American bike fan is only aware of and/or only really cares about the TDF, it makes sense that an American rider would follow suit.

I've always felt that riders like Bettini, Zabel, et al have a much deeper understanding and respect for the traditions and history of bike racing.[/QUOTE

That's what I meant about Lance being american. This whole 'you should never criticize lance' comes from american fans, becuase cycling wasn't all that big until the last few years and also because the tour is one of the only races even seen on tv. Americans have seen him win that race every year for six years, and for most north americans, our cycling knowledge doesn't extend back that far. IF we all knew cycling as well as we know football we'd think differently. Let's face it, if we only got to see the superbowl or the world series, we'd think, huh? and if players decided they'd only play one big game a year we'd think they were mazzo. BUt I also agree, the whole issue is ridiculous- imagining that Eddy Merckx is bitter is like saying BIll gates resents that he hasn't made enough money.

...imagining that Eddy Merckx is bitter is like saying BIll gates resents that he hasn't made enough money.

I'm pretty sure Bill Gates actually does resent that he hasn't made enough money.

I'd be bitter.........

Armstrong doesn't have to charge around Europe with his bike in the car, chasing appearance money in some meaningless august criterium. He doesn't see the sharp end of team orders, he stays in 5-star luxury, with Girlfriend in tow, if required. Schedule is tailored to his strengths, opinions, wishes; training can take place wherever he thinks convenient. He can live where he wants to and spend as little time away from that base as he desires. He can choose his own team, including Directeur Sportif, for each and every race. Corporations fall over themselves to offer him endorsement deals and bridge any technology gaps that might appear, be they equipment, medical support or physiological .....

need I go on? What's not to envy? Guy has the pressures of leadership his predecessors had for 30 days a year. And he's minted.

personally i like lances specialized and narrow approach. it keeps him out of other races and i get to hear about other cyclists besides lance

We do? Since when? Thanks to lance, the tour has become the only race we hear about and OLN has nearly abandoned the other grand tours. I know it's not entirely his fault, but if he did other races, we'd probably see them on tv. Instead, people still believe that the racing season in europe is three weeks in july. If we do notice other cyclists in other races it's because we make the effort and we know about cycling, but in a lot of ways lance's popularity has kind of backfired for every other race except the tour.

u ever try reading a magazine?? maybe cycling to the nominal lance fan is just three weeks in july but some people actually do a little research about the rest of the season.

u ever try reading a magazine?? maybe cycling to the nominal lance fan is just three weeks in july but some people actually do a little research about the rest of the season.

ya what he said, poeple who think that the season is 3 weeks in july are dumb, just like people who only care about baseball during the world series. people who are interested in cycling know whats going on, and it's not like lance hasn't done any races besides the tdf, check his website for all the other races he has participated in during the last 6 years

We do? Since when? Thanks to lance, the tour has become the only race we hear about and OLN has nearly abandoned the other grand tours. I know it's not entirely his fault, but if he did other races, we'd probably see them on tv. Instead, people still believe that the racing season in europe is three weeks in july. If we do notice other cyclists in other races it's because we make the effort and we know about cycling, but in a lot of ways lance's popularity has kind of backfired for every other race except the tour.


OLN does broadcast the spring classics. Not to go to far off topic but for those of us old enough to remember what kind of coverage we used to get OLN is a god send. Sure they didn't broadcast the Veulta but they did broadcast the Giro. The fact that we got the tour live is lightyears better than the 30min we used to get on ESPN.

As for how much Americans care about cylcing (or anyother non-American sport) lets face it we don't care about anything that we didn't invent. Soccer is bigger outside the US than any of our "homegrown" sports are here at home. If you come to cycling as a non-cyclist it's pretty confusing. I'm not surprised that cylcing has about 1% of the following here as it does in Europe it's their sport.

......... he stays in 5-star luxury, with Girlfriend in tow . . .

I believe that she tows him around. . . . :D

marty

I think it's true, we don't care much for sports that aren't native. Soccer, cycling- huge in europe,and here we could care less. RUgby too- it's popular in universities, but how much is it on tv? I know OLN shows all that other stuff, but I wonder how long that will last. I fear that after LA retires, cycling on tv will vanish in favor of bull riding or something. LEt's hope that doesn't happen.