Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - Scwhinn Paramount

I just picked up this schwinn Paramount frame and would like to know what year it was made and the value of it. the serial number is 689. any help would be great thanks
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According to the Waterford site, s/n 949 was reached in 1959, so your frame predates that. As to value. It's rough and needs complete refinishing. I cannot speak to the value.

That's an interesting frame.

There are a few red flags to me, but someone else may have plausible explanations.

I've never seen a Paramount serial number on the drive side dropout; they are always on the non-drive side dropout or on the bottom of the BB shell. Also, I've never seen those lugs or rear dropouts on a Paramount. From the first Wastyn built Paramounts in the late thirties until the mid-fifties, Schwinn used "keyhole" lugs on Paramounts, and in 1958 switched to Nervex Professional lugs which were used until 1980 except for a brief period around 1969-1971 when Prugnat lugs were used. I suppose there might have been a brief period in the mid-fifties when lugs with the triangular window cutouts like those on this frame may have been used, but I've never seen any examples.

I am not saying it isn't a Paramount, just that it differs in several ways from all the Paramounts I've seen or seen detailed photos of.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

For a nice history of the Schwinn Paramount, see the Waterford write-up:

Paramount Beginnings (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=paramountb)

Classic Period 1958-1979 (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=paramountclassic)

Paramounts in Waterford (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=pdg)

"Series" Paramounts 1990-1994 (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=pdgseries)

Dating Your Paramount (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=paramountdating)

Paramount Catalog Pages (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=paramountcat)

Paramount Production (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=paramountprod)

Thanks for the link and all the info maybe it is the rarest of all paramounts Just wish it was all there.

You might want to look at Tam Phan's early Paramount registry (http://chainedrevolution.com/registry/schwinn_paramount.aspx). There are five pages, and on page 4 are listed two frames on the registry with serial numbers in the 600s: 647 and 692. Both were made in 1957, had Nervex head lugs, and had track ends even though they were "Tourist" models. Unfortunately there are no photos.

it is interesting to me that the saddle looks identical to ones made in France and later marketed by Schwinn but with a different pressed in logo. The later ones are "Sprints". Similar to a Brook B-17 but softer and quite comfy.

The blue on the bike seems to be like a decal or something is this how all of them where. just seems strange to be that they didnt chrome the bike then tape it off and paint the other parts. and it looks like a lot of the chrome will clean up pretty nice. what kind of rims and components would this bike have. also the handle bar stem is a cinelli and the handle bars have some writing on them just cant make out what it says yet. Thanks for all the help.

If it is a Paramount, based on the serial number it would have made circa 1957. Although the first advertised Paramount with derailleurs appeared around 1960, the Paramounts were available with derailleurs earlier than that by special order. Until 1960, Paramounts were typically either track bikes or tourist models with single speed or 3-speed IGH hubs. The cobbled derailleur claw on your bike leads me to believe the derailleurs and double chainring were added after the bike left the factory. Here are the 1957 Paramount pages in the consumer catalog:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/1957Paramountpg01.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/1957Paramountpg02.jpg

Here's the 1959 catalog page:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/1959Paramount.jpg

Finally, here's the 1961 catalog page showing a Campagnolo Gran-Sport derailleur. EDIT - forgot the link

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/1961Paramount.jpg

None of these catalog pages identify Cinelli handlebars, although the 1961 P-12 looks like it might be equipped with Cinelli Giro d Italia bars.

So the frame is a 1957 but the rest of the opponents where added outside of the factory more then likely. what would be the best way to sell this then. Just sell the frame and part out the rest or sell it as is. any idea what the frame may be worth. Thanks

npence: Can you please tell me what the lettering on the dropout by the serial reads? I cannot make it out.

Thanks

So the frame is a 1957 but the rest of the opponents where added outside of the factory more then likely. what would be the best way to sell this then. Just sell the frame and part out the rest or sell it as is. any idea what the frame may be worth. Thanks
Because of the lugs, rear dropouts and the serial number location on the driveside, I have reservations that it's a Paramount. Either it's not a Paramount, which would mean its value would be based solely on the type of tubing and level of craftsmanship rather than its historical value as a Paramount, or if it can be authenticated as a Paramount by someone more knowledgeable than I (maybe Richard Schwinn at Waterford?), it might be worth $500 - $1,000 to the right buyer willing to undertake the expense of a correct restoration (and that wouldn't be cheap).

npence: Can you please tell me what the lettering on the dropout by the serial reads? I cannot make it out.

Thanks
I think it says Simple on the drop out with the number 689.

Simplex?

Yeah that is what it says. does this mean anything. Thanks

Yeah that is what it says. does this mean anything. Thanks

Simplex. It means it is most likely not a Paramount, AFAIK. You might try to determine what the threading is on the BB. It may be on one of the cups

If they're Simplex dropouts, that's further evidence it's not a Paramount. Lynn, that was a great question to ask.

I'd be very interested in knowing the top tube outside diameter. If it's French sized tubing (26.0mm O.D. top tube) instead of the standard 25.4mm O.D. top tube, it's almost certainly a French built frame. npence, do you have a caliper?

Yes I do I will do some measuring and see what I come up with. Thanks

If it was not originally equipped with a RD, there would be no reason for the odd looking and positioned cable stop on the chain stay. Unless it is actually a chainguard mount that has been deformed and re-purposed?

Looks to be a 26mm top bar. and looking the frame over closer under the crank housing seen the word Nervex with some other numbers. I take it Nervex is just the company that made the lugs but I dont know. Thanks

Looks to be a 26mm top bar. and looking the frame over closer under the crank housing seen the word Nervex with some other numbers. I take it Nervex is just the company that made the lugs but I dont know. Thanks
Yes; Nervex was a French company that made lugs, BB shells, fork crowns, etc., and they made these for both French tubing and standard tubing. Many framebuilders, including Schwinn, used Nervex lugs, BB shells, and fork crowns.

The 26.0mm top tube means it is almost certainly a French built frame, not a Paramount. It's a shame some folks put Paramount head badges on frames that aren't Schwinn or even American. The profit motive for misrepresentation is just too strong a temptation, I guess. :mad:

If it was not originally equipped with a RD, there would be no reason for the odd looking and positioned cable stop on the chain stay. Unless it is actually a chainguard mount that has been deformed and re-purposed?
Since it's likely French, it is quite possible the bike was originally equipped with a rear derailleur

So I have a schwinn Paramount headbadge and a cool looking frame. I dont have much into the frame so it isnt a big bummer. I might just fix it up and make a decent looking bike out of it and sell it for what it is. any value in the frame besides just the cool factor.

The lugs appear to be Nervex Super Legere which have been used on Paramounts in the late '50s. Also used on some Wastyns (an early builder of Paramounts for Schwinn).

Bob

http://home.mchsi.com/~bhufford3/paranervexlegere.jpg

The lugs appear to be Nervex Super Legere which have been used on Paramounts in the late '50s. Also used on some Wastyns (an early builder of Paramounts for Schwinn).

Bob
Ahh... Thanks, Bob. I learned something new.

Do you think there's any chance Schwinn might have used French tubing and Simplex dropouts on a Paramount, and stamped the serial number on the driveside dropout?

I'm sure that frame is way to small for you. You should give it to me so as not to cause you any more confusion.

Do you think there's any chance Schwinn might have used French tubing and Simplex dropouts on a Paramount, and stamped the serial number on the driveside dropout?Maybe they were prototyping with a new supplier (they did lean towards the French for components in that era), but the serial stamping is hard to get my head around. It would be interested to see if Waterford's archives have any info on that number.

Bob

Richard is doing a full correct restoration on my 23" ~1940 frameset (A853) right now. Next time I talk to him I'll ask him about it.

I e-mailed Richard Schwinn and asked him if he had a spare minute or two to look at the pictures of the frameset in the OP and share any thoughts he might have about its authenticity. He replied, and had no objection to my posting his reply in this thread, so here is my e-mail to him and his response.


Hi Richard,

I hope you have a moment to look at some photos posted on Bike Forums in THIS THREAD (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/757951-Scwhinn-Paramount). The frame has Nervex Serie Legere lugs, French size tubing (26.0mm top tube), Simplex dropouts, and serial number 689 stamped into the right (drive side) dropout. That serial number would mean it was made during 1957 if it is a Paramount. It has a Paramount head badge.

Because of the Serie Legere lugs, the Simplex dropouts, the French tubing, and the serial number location on the "wrong" dropout, I was skeptical it's a Paramount, but Bob Hufford (whose opinion I really respect) posted a photo from the Waterford website of a fifties Paramount with the Serie Legere lugs. Now I'm wondering if I was wrong about the bike. It has a double chainring crank and and a claw-mounted rear derailleur.

If you get the chance, could you take a look at the photos and let me know what you think?

Thanks.

Best,

Stan


Hi Stan,

Interesting bike.

Schwinn did occasionally use the Series Legere lugset (I have one of my Grandfather Frank's bikes with a set - bike bike on the site). I'm sure this bike had been stripped, chromed and repainted. '57-59 seems like a plausible time frame. Our records don't start until '59. The location of the serial number is a bit strange, but this was probably a big transition period, and hence lots of experiments. One may well have been the serial number location for the then recently available Campy dropouts. Since it was refinished, I wouldn't rely on any of the component choices as "original".

Thanks,

Richard

^^^This is what is great about this forum. Someone usually provides an answer and I get to learn something.

Interesting that he didn't comment on the French dimension tubes.

Interesting that he didn't comment on the French dimension tubes.

I agree. I thought maybe the Serie Legere lugs were only available for French dimensioned tubing, but I have a circa 1958 Nervex catalog that states they were available for both French and English tubing. Also, Frank W. Schwinn's similar vintage Paramount with the Serie Legere lugs used the then recently introduced Campagnolo 1010 rear dropouts, not Simplex dropouts. So, personally, I'm still a little skeptical.

The serial number does fit the Paramount production apparent timeframe during which the frame was built, so who knows??

Thanks Everyone for all your knowledge and helping try and figure this Frame out. any Idea what a frame like this is worth. Thanks,Nate