Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - bike comparison and questions

I ride a Cannondale Quick4 Hybrid. It is aluminum with a carbon fork and has 26 inch wheels. I am short and thus my bike choices are limited. A friend's wife is also short. She just bought a Surly LHT and has an old Terry for sale. It has a 24 inch front wheel and a standard 700 on the back. I am borrowing it for a couple of days to try out. She has made a number of modifications. Bar end shifters. New fancy brakes. A different gearing set up from standard.

I stood on the scale and weighed both bikes. The Terry weighs about 24 pounds and the Cannondale close to 30 (It has at least a pound, maybe two, of crap on it though).

I have now ridden the Terry all of three miles. Here is the bike:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VX_z2McOifo/Tj8YIPON1iI/AAAAAAAAZB0/x-Jl-Gx-RpY/s640/004.JPG

Here is the bike sitting by my bike, for comparison purposes:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-NP3fYKefGeA/Tj8X3dmVmGI/AAAAAAAAZBs/1jHHsfXBwLo/s640/006.JPG

The bad as compared to the Cannondale:

--It looks like the Terry is probably too big for me. I roughly set the seat height by measuring from the top of my seat on my Cannondale to the middle of the crank and then set the Terry seat a bit lower. It could probably go up a half inch to an inch. But, the top tube is really too high. Technically I can stand over it but it is right there, probably an eighth of an inch from my public bone. It made stops a bit unnerving. (She also has clip-ons which were a bit awkward).

--It felt a little twitchy when steering. I don't know if that has to do with the small front wheel.

--The bar end shifters were awkward but that likely is do to inexperience with both the bike and the shifters. The front derraileur is friction shifted and the rear index.

The good as compared to the Cannondale:

--Quiet! My Cannondale is a noisy bike and the pedals and drivetrain and always made something of a racket. This bike is dead quiet and smooth.

--Easy on the bumps. My short ride was a quarter mile down the dirt road, over the railroad tracks, a quarter mile down the highway which has compression joints, down a smooth road with a small hill. The compression joints were far easier to take on this skinny wheel bike. Why is that? Is the pressure in my hybrid tires too high? Or is it steel vs. aluminum? Also, the dirt road and railroad tracks were much easier on me. This was a big surprise. I thought it would be worse, not better, on the bumps.

--Really nice hand positions. I could ride "on the hoods" and easily operate the brakes. I could ride with my hands on top of the bar. I could ride in the drops. This is handy as I have a bad shoulder and need to move around. I did not mess with the handlebar height, but they are adjustable and could come down.

These are my initial impressions. I want to try it on a hill to see how it is going up the tough hills. This bike has a super low granny gear and the gearing is kind of odd on the rear:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tK7T5FVjJX4/Tj8X_qTpumI/AAAAAAAAZBw/Tn6HmwWesr0/s640/005.JPG

This gearing made it feel like there was almost no distance between the gears and then a big jump down to the low gear. I am not sure that I like that but two miles is too soon to tell.

Any thoughts?

Why are you riding it?

For fun? In the long run I might want a road bike. This one is inexpensive so if it fit I might buy it. She was nice enough to let me try it for a few days. But I think that it is too big because of the top tube. I guess what I am wondering about is how this road bike might compare to other road bikes that I would clearly be spending a lot more money on and I am wondering why in some ways it seems so much better than my bike. For example, I never realized how loud my bike sounded until I rode this one. And I was really surprised at how comfortably it takes the lumps and bumps.

The forward lean on a road bike is more comfortable for most riders.

You use your legs as shock absorbers on bumps.
The narrow tires require less effort to pedal.

Do another test. Ride each one about five miles or more on the same road.

If you can get on and off, the bike it fits.

Just my 2 cents.

Your Cannondale should be quite.
Take it back to your shop and let them know.

Well, I can get on and off but I am not sure I am comfortable with such a high top tube.

With my Cannondale I am always using my legs as shock absorbers. I found that there is less shock to absorb on the Terry.

Tomorrow I am going to do a ride on my regular route, which has a bunch of hills and will be a good test. I'll do the test with both bikes one after the other. My hunch is that I like a steel road bike but would prefer one a bit smaller. The top tube length seems really good--I measured the TT and it was 50cm. I can find a few road bikes with a 50cm TT that also have a standover less that the 28.5" that this bike has. But the low price makes this tempting.

Do you think I should drop the handlebars a bit for tomorrow's ride? They actually feel pretty good high up the way they are.

Your Cannondale should be quite.
Take it back to your shop and let them know.

I have had it to three shops for varying adjustments(I travel 75% of the year). They all say that it is as good as it will get.

My Cannondale is quite.

The top tube clearance on a road bike is usually minimal, but you need to feel comfortable with it. If after the series of rides you plan, you feel it fits, then it probably fits.

The steel of the Terry is probably a little better at absorbing overall road vibration than the Quick. Some of my bikes are noisier than others and it does not seem to have to do with original price. If it were me, I would probably buy it (if the price is right for me). If I continue to like it, I would upgrade the rear cassette if it still was an issue. If I decide I don't like it, a Terry bike should be relative easy to sell.

My 2 cents,
P2

Thanks pinsonp. My friend's wife has been trying to sell it for a month with no luck. They think people find it weird looking. A couple of people looked and then walked away. It is weird looking, with that tiny front wheel and the modifications, like the bar end shifters. Oddly, that is partly putting me off. It just seems ugly. But so smooth!

Quite .. what? :innocent:



Mega range gear clusters jump 10 teeth 24 to 34, another choice
is a ratio set that adds another gear in between , 24,28,34.
In cassettes K cluster is a 13.15.17, 20 24,29, 34..

The shorter forks and smaller wheel radically change the geometry of the bike resulting in steeper head and seat tube angles than the way the bike was designed. IMHO, that is a bike that was cobbled together to make it fit a certain person that needed a different sized bike to begin with. I'm not surprised they've had trouble selling it.

As for your bike, I have a very hard time believing that making a racket is a condition you have to live with. A good mechanic should be able to identify the source of the noise(s) and rectify the problem. And some smaller tires would probably make it feel a bit zippier as well as reducing the weight a bit.

I find it as no surprise when riders comment on how smooth and comfortable a road bike can be. Most think the drops are murder but don't realize how comfortable it can be riding the hoods.

As far as the top tube, keep in mind, many new bikes have the compact/sloping top tube style frame like Gina's bike. Plus, most WSD (women specific design) from the major brands take the female public bone into consideration.

And yeah, that's a funky custom setup set up on the rear of the Terry. A new bike will have several options as a rear set up. The reason her gears are that way is because it's only 7 speed and she wanted that tall gear fro the climbs. A new 10 speed will have a gradual increase throughout the cogset (greater number of gears).


Forgot to add, as far as the twitchy steering, it can be different from bike to bike depending on several things, fork rake, wheel base, stem length etc. Gina got this bike after riding her other bike for 7 or 8 years and had a hard time with the twitchy feel at first. Took about a month to master it and now she handles the bike really well. Actually much better than the old bike.

I'm not so sure anymore about new models but some WSD bikes used to come with 650 wheels instead of the taller 700c wheels on most road bikes. Not sure how tall you are but Gina is 5'4 and never had a problem with 700 wheels. Especially with the new sloping top tube. You can see it has lots of clearance for the public bones.


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/gulpxtreme/SA%20River%20Trail%20Ride/Trek.jpg

Well, I decided to pass on the bike. But it made me realize that I want a road bike. I really like the handbars.

I hope to find one that rides as smooth.

Now on the Cannondale. As I rode today I paid attention to where noises come from. The front derailleur rubs when I am in the lower gears on the middle chain ring. The is mechanically irritating to me plus it is noisy. I complained about this to the three bike shops I visited and they all fussed with the derailleur. I was told this is the best they can do. One even told me I wouldn't notice it once I was riding fast enough and had enough wind noise. Ha!

The tires are noisy. The tires are probably more aggressive than I want or need for pavement. Someone mentioned the possibilities of different wheels. I have 26 inch wheels on my bike. Is this really a possibility? Does one only change the wheels and tires or are there lots of other things that would have to change?

Beanz, Gina's bike is absolutely beautiful. What size frame does she ride? I am only 4'11" and choices are limited but there are some 42-44cm frames that look like they would fit.

Now on the Cannondale. As I rode today I paid attention to where noises come from. The front derailleur rubs when I am in the lower gears on the middle chain ring. The is mechanically irritating to me plus it is noisy. I complained about this to the three bike shops I visited and they all fussed with the derailleur. I was told this is the best they can do. One even told me I wouldn't notice it once I was riding fast enough and had enough wind noise. Ha!
Should be a simple derailleur adjustment but difficult to be sure without seeing in person.

The tires are noisy. The tires are probably more aggressive than I want or need for pavement. Someone mentioned the possibilities of different wheels. I have 26 inch wheels on my bike. Is this really a possibility? Does one only change the wheels and tires or are there lots of other things that would have to change?
No need to change wheels. Get some narrower tires like these:
http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1070099_-1_1590008_20000_400237 (http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1070099_-1_1590008_20000_400237)
They’ll be quieter, lighter and feel much faster. (You’ll probably also need to change tubes with the tires as yours will be too large.)

Beanz, Gina's bike is absolutely beautiful. What size frame does she ride? I am only 4'11" and choices are limited but there are some 42-44cm frames that look like they would fit.

Wow, you are short!. Her Trek in the pic is a 49 (WSD) but she rides a 51 in a traditional type frame (mens with narrow hb's).

As far as the noise, I don't know about the shifters on your Canni, but road shifters have a 1/2 step shift that allows you to move the cage slightly over to desired direction and position to eliminate chain rub. This is called "trim".

I myself have a double and a triple. Many riders with triples avoid the granny ring for no other reason than to say they don't' need it. My opinion, it's silly. Here's why.

If you have a triple, a few of the gears are repeats/copies. So if I am on the middle front gear and I get a slight chain rub, I am better of switching to the granny to hold a straight chain line. So yeah, OK, I am a big sissy for using the granny ring. NOT! The gear inch combo that I selected is more than likely a repeat of the gear I was using on the middle ring but without the chain rub. ;)

I make it a point to switch the front gear if I have to use the inner most two cogs (gears in the back) or the two outer most cogs. Once I am that far over in the rear, it makes more sense to change the front and bring the chain position in the back more to a straight line which means being in the center of the cog set.

Keeping a straight chain line makes the bike sound much better, better on the components and makes switching gears much smoother. I stay inward with the rear chain and it makes the shifting smoother, this is known as using the transition cogs. Cogs, gears that make the change run smoother. Shift your bike to the tallest cog then shift to the small ring in front, that will likely throw your chain off, not good! Reverse principle, making the shift smoother without losing the chain, shift while toward the center of the cog set.

I have been on rides with other riders using a triple. We hit a climb that is 4% (not steep) I switch to my granny and the 19 cog in the rear and the 30 granny up front.

My partner is avoiding his granny to prove he's macho so he's running his middle ring 39 up front and his cog in the back a 25.

We get to the top and he says, I'm stronger because I used my middle ring and you used your granny ring.:eek:

Guess what, my granny 30/19 is equal to 43 gear inches while your middle ring 39/25 is equal to 42 gear inches. So actually we pushed nearly the same identical gear up the hill only my bike was quiet and ran smoothly while he had that annoying gear rub and cross chained all the way up, which is not good.:D


So in short :D...if you get noise in the middle ring, switch to the small ring up front then switch the rear toward the center of the cog set somewhere till you feel the same resistance you felt in the middle ring but with no noise! Odds are you are probably using the same gear inch combo:thumb:

Wow, you are short!

I had a girl friend (not a girlfriend) in high school who was about that height. Her father used to tell her she should sue the city for building the sidewalks too close to her butt.

I had a girl friend (not a girlfriend) in high school who was about that height. Her father used to tell her she should sue the city for building the sidewalks too close to her butt.

:roflmao2:......Funny, I really like short wimmins. 6'1 but I like mines 5 feet. When I met Gina, she's 5'4 and I thought she was a little too tall for me.:D

Should be a simple derailleur adjustment but difficult to be sure without seeing in person.


You would think. But three bike mechanics were not able to adjust the derailleur so it wouldn't rub.


Wow, you are short!

Yup. Sometimes I think people might wonder why a 122 pounder is on the Clyde/Athena board and I wish my weight loss ticker showed the height as well. I was very round at 158 pounds and wore a size 2x. I am still overweight at 122, especially given my very small frame.

Beanz, I have been playing with the gears to try to avoid using the lowest two or three on the middle chain ring, where I have the rubbing problems. I seem to end up shifting the front derailleur a lot as a result. I can "trim" it a little, but not enough to stop the rubbing.

]No need to change wheels. Get some narrower tires like these:[/FONT][/SIZE]
http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1070099_-1_1590008_20000_400237 (http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1070099_-1_1590008_20000_400237)
They’ll be quieter, lighter and feel much faster. (You’ll probably also need to change tubes with the tires as yours will be too large.)

Thanks! I might cheat and have a bike shop do it. Or finally actually use my tool kit and change a tire. :)

With my Cannondale I am always using my legs as shock absorbers. I found that there is less shock to absorb on the Terry.

Less shock in general, or was your back and butt less beat up at the end of the ride? The Terry looks like it's set up for a pretty upright posture, but I'd bet it's still putting more of your weight over the front wheel than you're used to, taking some off the back wheel, keeping you somewhat better balanced, and changing how the shock gets to you.

Also, the fork is curved outward, so that it should compress a little (like a spring) when you hit a bump, where yours is straight, like a column. I can't say just how much effect that should have on road buzz, but it should help some.

Less shock in general. My rides were too short to say that I was less beat up. Interesting comments on the geometry, thanks.

i asked you this in your other post but haven't clicked back on it since earlier but if you add bar ends to your flat bar you will have some more hand positions that will allow you more comfort but still not as many as a drop bar. There is no way your cannondale should be 30lbs. I'm going to assume that weight includes not only the rack but the bag on it as well. I am 6'3 and had a giant rapid xl frame that is much bigger than your bike and it had a steel fork not a carbon fork and it only weighed 26lbs with a rack on it. There are ways you couldget your bike lighter.

My gf is 5'3 so quite a bit taller than you but she rides the Dawes lightning dlx from bikesdirect.com she has the xs 44cm frame size. This bike also has sloping toptube geometry and you would definately fit on it. the only mod i had to make for her was I had to cut down the length of her seatpost because it would hit the screws from the bottle cages (picture the cage screws on the inside of the seat tube. the seat tube is so short because the frame is small.) ONce I cut the seat post down I was able to get the seat low enough for her. As it is, the seat could still be lowered a good 4 or 5 inches which is why I say this bike would probably fit you. it is a very entry level bke and affordable. I personally made a few upgrades to it and actually switched it back to a flat bar bike and put the drops on my bike.

You could convert your quick to drops but many would say it isn't cost effective.

Just my late 2 cents... a friend of mine used to ride that Terry - it was a pain carrying two sets of tubes all the time (half the time she forget and had only the one size and the other always got the flat. The 700c was OK 'cause we all carried those - the 650 was a pain). And its very hard to change out 650c tires. So you were smart to pass.

If you can, find a bike with 700c wheels. Tubes are easier to locate and changing a flat not so difficult. Bike will roll better. You'll just be happier.

BTW for the Cannondale if you put road slicks on the wheels and take off the rack and bag it would weight about the same as the Terry.

BTW for the Cannondale if you put road slicks on the wheels and take off the rack and bag it would weight about the same as the Terry.

And the reflectors, too. Don't forget the reflectors. ;)

Yeah, those reflectors are really ugly. I did figure all the crap I had on the bike is making it weigh more.

Just my late 2 cents... a friend of mine used to ride that Terry - it was a pain carrying two sets of tubes all the time (half the time she forget and had only the one size and the other always got the flat. The 700c was OK 'cause we all carried those - the 650 was a pain). And its very hard to change out 650c tires. So you were smart to pass.

First the Terry uses a 24" tire not a 650C. To be exact the front wheel on a Terry is a 520mm rim and tires are even harder to find than 650C. That said, my wife has a Terry Symmetry and changing tires isn't any more difficult than a 700C road tire.

goldfinch is right to pass on this Terry not because of the gears or the smaller front wheel or the age of the bike or the need to carry two sizes of tubes. She's right to pass on the bike for the same reason she would be right to pass on any bike that's not the right size. This Terry is made for someone around 5'3" to 5'5".

There are valid reasons for someone who is a small as goldfinch to ride a Terry. Look at the Cannondale and see what kinds of gyrations Cannondale goes through to make the bike fit. They lengthened the top tube so that it's longer than the Terry's and the Terry's is probably too long for a 4'11" woman. They raised the headtube to accommodate the height of the front fork. The standover of the bike is probably about right if goldfinch drops straight down off the saddle without moving forward of the nose. However if she dismounts like a normal person, she's not got a lot of room with that sloping top tube. To accommodate the changes, Cannondale has to monkey with the geometry. The result isn't always that desirable leading to all kinds of problems. Georgina Terry has a whole series of video on designs (http://community.terrybicycles.com/wordpress/?cat=11) and what needs to be done to make small bikes. It's not as simple as just removing length to the various tubes. I suggest everyone who might have a smaller person in their life go look at these videos.




If you can, find a bike with 700c wheels. Tubes are easier to locate and changing a flat not so difficult. Bike will roll better. You'll just be happier.

A 700C wheel for a small person is just the wrong advice. The Cannondale that goldfinch has is spec'd, wisely, with 26" wheels. A 700C wheel is closer to 28" in outer diameter and that gains her two highly needed inches in standover height right there. The Terry with the asymmetrical wheels gains her other benefits such as a more normal seat and head angle and a shorter top tube. These are all parameters that 'normal' sized people take for granted but small people have to deal with all the time.


BTW for the Cannondale if you put road slicks on the wheels and take off the rack and bag it would weight about the same as the Terry.

I doubt that the rack and bag would make up 10 lbs of the difference between the Terry and the Cannondale. The Cannondale already has slicks on low spoke count wheels. Some of the difference is due to components...the Terry is spec'd with lighter higher quality parts...but a lot of the difference is in the frame. Terry bikes were, and are, made with very high quality tube and are an all around higher quality bike than the Quick 4. There's nothing wrong with the Cannondale - other than 30 lbs of weight:rolleyes: - but it's not on the same level as the Terry.

goldfinch: This Terry is wrong for you. However, Terry bicycles are made for people like you. No one else makes bikes for small women like Terry does. She still makes and sells them. Yes they are relatively expensive but they fit your small size. You can spend thousands of dollars and many years trying to find 'just the right bike' or just buy the Terry new. A new Symmetry (http://www.terrybicycles.com/Bicycles/Ready-To-Ride-Fitness/Symmetry-Drop-Bar) is around $1200 in a road version and she has a number of dealers around the nation. The bikes don't have a lot of high end components on them and they weigh in at 21lbs. A bit of money on better parts and a few carbon dodads could bring the weight down significantly.

My wife loves her's and the lighter weight along with the better fit has made her faster and happier. Terry's are worth a second look.

When you're on the middle chainring, you should be able to use any cog in your cassette without the chain rubbing your front derailler. Without seeing it, I'd guess it's not angled correctly and the shops aren't paying attention to that -- they're just setting the limit screws and adjusting the cable/barrels.

Besides that, I notice that if my drive train is noisy it usually needs a few squirts of oil in the right places.

Look at the Cannondale and see what kinds of gyrations Cannondale goes through to make the bike fit. They lengthened the top tube so that it's longer than the Terry's and the Terry's is probably too long for a 4'11" woman. They raised the headtube to accommodate the height of the front fork. The standover of the bike is probably about right if goldfinch drops straight down off the saddle without moving forward of the nose. However if she dismounts like a normal person, she's not got a lot of room with that sloping top tube. To accommodate the changes, Cannondale has to monkey with the geometry. The result isn't always that desirable leading to all kinds of problems. .

The Cannondale fits really well. I can go forward off the seat with no problem. I also tried the Quick in the Petite size that uses the 700 wheels. There it was a much closer call. The reach is nice and short too. It was the only hybrid that I felt fit really well. My issues with the Quick have more to do with things other than fit.

I am not sure that I am sold on the Terry concept, which will require two different spares. You could easily say "look at the gyrations Terry had to do through to make it fit." Though I am not adverse to trying one. I have no problem with the idea of buying a bike with 26 inch wheels or 650 if that is what it takes to get a good fit. I could get a Salsa Vaya with 26 inch tires in the 50cm size (they size bikes differently than most). Or a custom Waterford/Gunnar. Or, I could try the very small carbon framed bikes, like the Jamis Endura (Femme) in 44cm, the Trek Madone 4.7 WSD (which comes in a 43cm size), or the Specialized Ruby, which is a 44cm bike but pretty compact. I am not so sure about aluminum anymore after comparing the ride of the Cannondale with the Terry, but the higher end Trek Lexa comes in a 43cm.

Anyway, I'll be window shopping for a while because no fancy road bike until I get to my weight loss goal. Though I am tempted to do a Minneapolis trip and try a few of the carbon ones out. I can't seem to find small steel bikes to try, even in the cities.

The Cannondale fits really well. I can go forward off the seat with no problem. I also tried the Quick in the Petite size that uses the 700 wheels. There it was a much closer call. The reach is nice and short too. It was the only hybrid that I felt fit really well. My issues with the Quick have more to do with things other than fit.

I am not sure that I am sold on the Terry concept, which will require two different spares. You could easily say "look at the gyrations Terry had to do through to make it fit." Though I am not adverse to trying one. I have no problem with the idea of buying a bike with 26 inch wheels or 650 if that is what it takes to get a good fit. I could get a Salsa Vaya with 26 inch tires in the 50cm size (they size bikes differently than most). Or a custom Waterford/Gunnar. Or, I could try the very small carbon framed bikes, like the Jamis Endura (Femme) in 44cm, the Trek Madone 4.7 WSD (which comes in a 43cm size), or the Specialized Ruby, which is a 44cm bike but pretty compact. I am not so sure about aluminum anymore after comparing the ride of the Cannondale with the Terry, but the higher end Trek Lexa comes in a 43cm.

Anyway, I'll be window shopping for a while because no fancy road bike until I get to my weight loss goal. Though I am tempted to do a Minneapolis trip and try a few of the carbon ones out. I can't seem to find small steel bikes to try, even in the cities.

Go watch the videos that I linked to. The information is very enlightening and all women's designs are poor copies of Georgina Terry's bikes. She pioneered the concept and, in my opinion, still does the best job around on the frame design for women. They are certainly in the same class as the other bikes you've listed.

Be aware that Terry doesn't put the small front wheel on all of her bikes. Only the smallest has two different sized wheels (not a much of a hassle as you think). The 44 cm bikes she sells are 650C wheeled and their price is certainly competitive with the bikes you are looking at. The gyrations that she goes through are to make a bike that fits you, the small rider, best.

[QUOTE]If you can, find a bike with 700c wheels. Tubes are easier to locate and changing a flat not so difficult./QUOTE]

Trouble is Terry went that way due to the anatomical proportions of the customers ,
she was trying to fit. , the smaller wheel was a means to an end..

While you are at it , just restrict your customer base to people that fit your bikes.
because you have to keep the big front wheel ..

if you want the tubes to be the same size, either use a smaller back wheel too

Bike Friday is a great company the wheel size on theirs, 20 " 451, or 406 rim.
For Go fast, or practical load bearing world traveller types.

or of course there is always the Stoker position available , tandem,
behind someone with the height and body proportions suitable
to the 700c wheels you wish for.

I don't know if Recumbent riders are worked up about carrying 2 different size tubes.
Since they are in a similar situation ..

Go watch the videos that I linked to. The information is very enlightening and all women's designs are poor copies of Georgina Terry's bikes. She pioneered the concept and, in my opinion, still does the best job around on the frame design for women. They are certainly in the same class as the other bikes you've listed.

Be aware that Terry doesn't put the small front wheel on all of her bikes. Only the smallest has two different sized wheels (not a much of a hassle as you think). The 44 cm bikes she sells are 650C wheeled and their price is certainly competitive with the bikes you are looking at. The gyrations that she goes through are to make a bike that fits you, the small rider, best.

I did watch the videos some time ago. I looked at their website, which I haven't reviewed in quite a while (I originally was considering a Terry hybrid). I see that the 44cm frames are mostly on 650 wheels, which is fine with me. I have no expectation of getting a bike with 700cm wheels to fit. I no longer really am interested in aluminum so I would need a semi-custom Terry. They are steel. It looks like they are made by Waterford. So, my consideration is whether to get a full custom Waterford or Gunnar, or a stock Terry. Then the issue is what size Terry. That is a bit tough. The standover on the 44cm bikes is fine but the real question is what is the appropriate reach. If it needs to be shorter than 50cm I am stuck with the small front wheel, which offends my aethetic sense. Sorry, but I think they look funny. (Though if necessary I would live with it). I need to talk to a fitter about that. The one fitter I worked with in fitting my Cannondale felt that I should go full custom Waterford and he felt that that would fit me great. But maybe I looked rich. :) If I fit a 50cm effective top tube there are a lot more options available for me, including the carbon bikes I identified. So, thinking out loud, that is really my issue: How long of a top tube will work for me.

If I need smaller than 50cm then besides Terry I am going to look at Bike Fridays and see what Waterford options there are.

Dang it, I know I am going to end up spending the big bucks at some point.

I don't know if Recumbent riders are worked up about carrying 2 different size tubes.
Since they are in a similar situation ..

One bent rider I met says he never gets flats on the front so he doesn't carry a tube for the front. :)

I will continue my thought process here. . .

I checked the stats for some of the small frame bikes and there are some that have an effective top tube of less than 50 but maintain two same size wheels. The Madonne 4.7 WSD 43cm has a 48cm top tube. I think that bike is worthy of a Minneapolis trip to check out.

I will continue my thought process here. . .

I checked the stats for some of the small frame bikes and there are some that have an effective top tube of less than 50 but maintain two same size wheels. The Madonne 4.7 WSD 43cm has a 48cm top tube. I think that bike is worthy of a Minneapolis trip to check out.

This bike will spoil you.

I did watch the videos some time ago. I looked at their website, which I haven't reviewed in quite a while (I originally was considering a Terry hybrid). I see that the 44cm frames are mostly on 650 wheels, which is fine with me. I have no expectation of getting a bike with 700cm wheels to fit. I no longer really am interested in aluminum so I would need a semi-custom Terry. They are steel. It looks like they are made by Waterford. So, my consideration is whether to get a full custom Waterford or Gunnar, or a stock Terry. Then the issue is what size Terry. That is a bit tough. The standover on the 44cm bikes is fine but the real question is what is the appropriate reach. If it needs to be shorter than 50cm I am stuck with the small front wheel, which offends my aethetic sense. Sorry, but I think they look funny. (Though if necessary I would live with it). I need to talk to a fitter about that. The one fitter I worked with in fitting my Cannondale felt that I should go full custom Waterford and he felt that that would fit me great. But maybe I looked rich. :) If I fit a 50cm effective top tube there are a lot more options available for me, including the carbon bikes I identified. So, thinking out loud, that is really my issue: How long of a top tube will work for me.

Don't get too hung up on aluminum vs steel. The legendary...some would say mythical:rolleyes:...qualities of steel are overblown. For a small frame like yours, the triangulation of the frame is so small that even a steel frame is going to be stiff. It's probably going to be even stiffer than an aluminum bike be cause steel is a stiffer material. Look here (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html) for more information on frame materials. Pay particular attention to the section on comfort.

Aluminum has a distinct advantage for smaller riders. It's density is roughly 1/3 that of steel. Sheldon Brown in his article says that weight doesn't matter. I'll agree that weight doesn't matter all that much for the average rider. But you aren't the average rider. An extra pound for me is nothing. It's 0.4% of my body mass. For you, however, it's 0.8% of your body mass. And when you consider that your muscle mass:body mass is much smaller than mine, the effect that bicycle weight has is much greater.

On the other hand, you don't gain...um, lose?;)...any weight advantage with steel. If anything you gain some weight because the shorter tubes have to have longer butts in them for welding which increases the weight.


If I need smaller than 50cm then besides Terry I am going to look at Bike Fridays and see what Waterford options there are.

Bike Fridays have their own issues. The 20" wheels are less stable than even the 24" front wheel of a Terry and the gearing is funky. Aesthetically? Ugg!;)


Dang it, I know I am going to end up spending the big bucks at some point.

I'm sorry to say but that's the problem with small riders. Bicycles...and the rest of the world...is made for people my size. I can walk into anywhere and pick stuff off the peg and use it without modification. Bicycles, cars, clothes, tools, furniture, kitchens, etc.

You, on the other hand, can't. I know it's not fair...believe me, I've been hearing alllllll about it for 30+ years:rolleyes:...but that's the way it is. I'm in the middle of the bell curve and you, unfortunately, are on the edge. The good news, with respect to bicycles, is that it's better than it used to be. My wife's first 'real' bicycle was a "27 inch" Sears. That 27 inches was the wheel size. The frame was a 23" which is what I ride. I'm a foot taller than she is. It took a long time...and a lot of money... to get a bike that actually fit her.

Don't get too hung up on aluminum vs steel. The legendary...some would say mythical:rolleyes:...qualities of steel are overblown. For a small frame like yours, the triangulation of the frame is so small that even a steel frame is going to be stiff. It's probably going to be even stiffer than an aluminum bike be cause steel is a stiffer material. Look here (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html) for more information on frame materials. Pay particular attention to the section on comfort.

Aluminum has a distinct advantage for smaller riders. It's density is roughly 1/3 that of steel. Sheldon Brown in his article says that weight doesn't matter. I'll agree that weight doesn't matter all that much for the average rider. But you aren't the average rider. An extra pound for me is nothing. It's 0.4% of my body mass. For you, however, it's 0.8% of your body mass. And when you consider that your muscle mass:body mass is much smaller than mine, the effect that bicycle weight has is much greater.



If aluminum and steel won't differ that much for me, why was the Terry so much easier on the road bumps and lumps? I especially noticed it on the compression joints on the highway, which are really jolting on my Cannondale. Is it simply because the Terry is a better made bike than my relatively cheap Cannondale? Or was it because the frame was too big so it could flex? Or could it be the materials? If the Madonne 43cm fits, is Carbon going to be more comfortable?

Right now this all is a bit abstract because I am heading off in a few days for a Michigan adventure and there are no bikes for me to try where I am now in northern Minnesota or in the UP. I don't get one until I am 110 pounds anyway. But my goal is getting closer.

If aluminum and steel won't differ that much for me, why was the Terry so much easier on the road bumps and lumps? I especially noticed it on the compression joints on the highway, which are really jolting on my Cannondale. Is it simply because the Terry is a better made bike than my relatively cheap Cannondale? Or was it because the frame was too big so it could flex? Or could it be the materials? If the Madonne 43cm fits, is Carbon going to be more comfortable?
A bike isn't just a frame, it is a collection of parts on a frame. The frame material can make a difference but so can the way the frame is made, the geometry, the components and the fit. Only way to know if a bike is comfortable for you is to ride it.

A bike isn't just a frame, it is a collection of parts on a frame. The frame material can make a difference but so can the way the frame is made, the geometry, the components and the fit. Only way to know if a bike is comfortable for you is to ride it.

The Terry didn't fit but it was easier on the bumps. I am still trying to get my arms around why.

The Terry didn't fit but it was easier on the bumps. I am still trying to get my arms around why.

Just because the bike didn't fit you doesn't mean that you weren't in a more comfortable riding position than your current bike. Compare your body position on the two bikes and think about how they differed. My guess is that will account for at least some of the difference you felt.

What is the risk of having a custom bike built? You can't try it before you buy it. I worry that bike shops think rich old lady as soon as I mention the possibility of a bike being built to fit me so I am not sure that I necessarily trust their judgment that custom is the way for me to go. My fitter at one bike shop suggested custom. Another bike shop also suggested custom when I mentioned the possibility of a road bike some day. But then again, these same two bike shops can't seem to come up with a mechanic that can make my front derailleur work perfect. :)

The Terry didn't fit but it was easier on the bumps. I am still trying to get my arms around why.
did you measure the tire pressure? honestly, thats the biggest way to change the feel of a bike. I've got a road bike that I ride on 23's and 25's and then i have my commuter that rides on 35's. The 35's at lower pressure rides SOOOOOOOO much more comfortable. Because I'm so big 6'3" 250. I have to run skinny road tires at their max pressure ratings or even a bit above. lighter riders have a lot more options on the tire pressure to go between speed and comfort.

Goldfinch, you say you like the Quick but are looking for more comfort, are you aware that the quick comes in a carbon model? Also, It sounds like you have done some homework already but I keep hearing a lot of talk about top tube length but obviously, there are a number of factors. Your best bet is to just start trying out some bikes, of course, it may be tough to find shops that have bikes built up in your size already.

did you measure the tire pressure? honestly, thats the biggest way to change the feel of a bike. I've got a road bike that I ride on 23's and 25's and then i have my commuter that rides on 35's. The 35's at lower pressure rides SOOOOOOOO much more comfortable. Because I'm so big 6'3" 250. I have to run skinny road tires at their max pressure ratings or even a bit above. lighter riders have a lot more options on the tire pressure to go between speed and comfort.

Goldfinch, you say you like the Quick but are looking for more comfort, are you aware that the quick comes in a carbon model? Also, It sounds like you have done some homework already but I keep hearing a lot of talk about top tube length but obviously, there are a number of factors. Your best bet is to just start trying out some bikes, of course, it may be tough to find shops that have bikes built up in your size already.

The tire pressure on the Terry was at the max, on the Quick it is close to the max.

The carbon Quick doesn't come in the extra small. :( But I think that I want drop bars anyway in the long run. And skinny tires for a bit more speed. I am looking at top tube and standover first as that excludes a lot of bikes. Then I hunt to find bikes to ride. I had to drive 350 miles to try the xs Quick.

The Quick I would keep for country roads and maybe let out a little tire pressure.

I was thinking about my derailleur issue and emailed Cannondale with my derailleur woes. In an hour they got back to me, asking where was the nearest dealer. I emailed back the name but haven't heard back yet.

I bought a WSD Trek bike with 650 wheels for my grandson last year, and he is shorter than you. He loves it. (just don't tell him it's a ladies bike :-)

If aluminum and steel won't differ that much for me, why was the Terry so much easier on the road bumps and lumps? I especially noticed it on the compression joints on the highway, which are really jolting on my Cannondale. Is it simply because the Terry is a better made bike than my relatively cheap Cannondale? Or was it because the frame was too big so it could flex? Or could it be the materials? If the Madonne 43cm fits, is Carbon going to be more comfortable?

Right now this all is a bit abstract because I am heading off in a few days for a Michigan adventure and there are no bikes for me to try where I am now in northern Minnesota or in the UP. I don't get one until I am 110 pounds anyway. But my goal is getting closer.


A bike isn't just a frame, it is a collection of parts on a frame. The frame material can make a difference but so can the way the frame is made, the geometry, the components and the fit. Only way to know if a bike is comfortable for you is to ride it.

CACycling is right. Look at your picture of the two bikes. The Terry has a very large front triangle...it's not even really a triangle but more a polygon. It also has a curved thin bladed fork and it looks like it has a shallower head and seat angle. Those features work to make the ride less harsh.

The Cannondale, on the other hand, has a steep head angle and steep seat angle as well as a thick straight bladed fork. It also has a real front triangle and a very small one at that. All that works to make the bike stiffer and harsher.

The tire pressure on the Terry was at the max, on the Quick it is close to the max.

The carbon Quick doesn't come in the extra small. :( But I think that I want drop bars anyway in the long run. And skinny tires for a bit more speed. I am looking at top tube and standover first as that excludes a lot of bikes. Then I hunt to find bikes to ride. I had to drive 350 miles to try the xs Quick.

The Quick I would keep for country roads and maybe let out a little tire pressure.

I was thinking about my derailleur issue and emailed Cannondale with my derailleur woes. In an hour they got back to me, asking where was the nearest dealer. I emailed back the name but haven't heard back yet.
there is probably no reason for you to be running your tires anywhere near max pressure. you don't even weigh 130lbs these days and the added speed that max inflation provides has been proven to be somewhat mythical. there is a sort of magic line where comfort meets speed, going higher in pressure won't actually reduce rolling resistance and may infact increase it. other things to consider before buying a whole new bike are narrower 26" tires and better quality tires. I notice distinct differences in speed based on the quality of tire i'm riding on. http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf is a great link that is more specific to 700C tires but you can see that if you were riding on a 700x32c tire you would only need about 45psi in your rear tire despite the fact that a typical 32c tire is rated 70-90psi max. Take some pressure out and go for a ride and compare the comfort level and see if it slows you down any.

(btw, I totally get that you flat out want another bike, I got 2 myself! just wanted to give some assistance to hopefully make your current ride more pleasant. I honestly think that if this frame fits you as well as you say, you should be considering putting drop bars on it, it doesn't have to be as expensive as people make it out to be though one challenge is that you have MTB cranks on that bike not road cranks.) perhaps see if your shop will let you trade it in for credit towards a new one, or just buy another of the same bike in a higher trim level (the quick 1 as opposed to the 4)

Thanks for the tip on the tire pressure. I'll try letting a little out. Even though I've ridden this bike now 550 miles the tires are still holding almost at the max pressure.

Today I had four modifications done on my Quick:

1. New cassette and front derailleur and cables. I mentioned that I emailed Cannondale about my derailleur woes. They got me to a LBS and they got me in this morning as I am leaving for another trip. Hopefully with these changes I won't have the rubbing problem--it does seem fine on a short test ride. I suppose though I will have to go through the cable stretching thing again. But, props to Cannondale for being so responsive, within a couple of days of emailing them I had my bike looked at and changes made.

2. I bought new slick tires to see if that makes any speed difference or if it is all engine.

3. I had my new power grip pedals put on. I did a short test ride. I love these pedals! Easy!

4. The ugly side reflectors are now gone. :)

While the LBS was doing this work I test rode a Cannondale Synapse as they had it in the 44cm model. The effective top tube is 50cm but the handlebar stem is very short. Interesting ride. The test ride was in Duluth, Minnesota. Duluth is very, very hilly. I went uphill two blocks as part of my ride. I had to bail after the two blocks as I just couldn't go up any more. Too hard. Made me feel like a wimp. I also rode parallel to the hill but that is uphill too. I went along about a mile and a half in first gear. Blech. Going back downhill though was easy! I felt that it wasn't geared as low as my Quick. I would like it to be.

The streets were too nicely paved to make a judgment about how the bike takes rough roads. It shifted easy, I like the shifters. It was hard to brake from the hoods, my hands felt too small. The brakes were squeezable but I do have small hands. I don't know if I was too stretched out and if this bike truly fits. How do you know? My elbows weren't locked. The bike was easy to ride, not at all twitchy like the Terry. The standover was OK.

I felt that it might be good to have the option to have my handlebars higher, given my neck problems. The bars had all four spacers below so they were as high as they go.

The bike didn't speak to me. But that might be because I was riding on hills that are out of my league and reality bites.

regarding tires, slicks and also lightweight folding tires will get the most bang for the buck. on my commuting/touring bike i started with some cheapo tires that weighed 900 grams! 700x37c. I switched to a better 700x35c tire that was only 450grams per tire and it was a night and day difference. weight around the perimeter of the wheel is a killer. the nice thing about someone your weight is that if you really get into cycling, you have a lot of options for lightweight wheels because you weigh so little. unlikemost of us in this forum, you should probably be looking for lighter wheels to come with a new bike while the rest of us are always looking for heavier/stronger wheels.

regarding riding the hoods. one problem you will have is that a lot of ****ers aren't adjustable. there are some road shifters that have a reach adjustment so that you won't have to reach so far with short fingers but the width of the shifters is still the same so it may or may not feel very comfortable to you.

regarding gearing, your quick has mtb cranks if i'm not mistaken, the synapse (and any road bike) are going to have some sort of road crank so either a 52/42/30 50/39/30 or 50/34 compact are your options. your quick currently is an 8 speed correct? not sure how big your largest cog is but a modern road bike will give you presumably give you 10 speeds so you can have tighter spacing between gears and a really wide range. that type of stuff is easily configured with a basic casette change at the time of purchase. LBS should be willing to swap them out for free if needed. I'm pretty confident you can gearing just about as low as what you have now without too much work

Thanks Moto. I'm still trying to figure out the word the "censor" beeped out. And yes, my Quick has mtb cranks.