Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Opinions Welcome: What makes a good ride leader?

We did a ride today and I was the ride leader. Learned a lot.... things I should have done and not should have done.

So I wanted to ask.... what makes a good ride leader to you?

We did a ride today and I was the ride leader. Learned a lot.... things I should have done and not should have done.

So I wanted to ask.... what makes a good ride leader to you?

I think you did fine.

A good ride leader sees that the people on the ride have a good time. That means planning an interesting ride and keeping problems under control as they arise.

One who makes sure everyone is on the same page as far as goals, planning, etc, and who makes sure his followers are safe & enjoying the ride.

One who does not look down on anyone in the group.

What do you feel should not have been done or could have been done better? I personally think you did a great job, Everybody had fun, Everybody stayed safe, and noone got dropped.

Oh wait, that's right don't let my GPS figure the route!! lol

Things I would have done different:

-Have a solid plan of where to eat and add that to the que sheet
-Would have wanted to make sure everyone was together. I know it might not have seemed liek a big deal but when I think about it, it was a big deal to me.
- Would have a better idea of where to go after the ride (ice cream place)

What I did:
-brought gaterade for all just in case
-brought que sheets.

just some thoughts.

I also should have got some sort of emergency contact info just in case something happened.

I don't think you're givng yourself eough credit.

-Have a solid plan of where to eat and add that to the que sheet
If you think about it, we ate at pretty much the only option we had. Most of the food was passed during the first loop, which would have been way too soon to stop to eat. There's no way we would have eaten, then rode back to the cars and then went to the second loop on full bellies. Could it have been done a bit differently? Sure, but IMO it was a non factor because the pizza place was only a half mile out of the way.


Would have wanted to make sure everyone was together. I know it might not have seemed liek a big deal but when I think about it, it was a big deal to me.
Keeping a ride together isn't as easy as it seems, you have different rider experiences, rider fitness levels, terrain, weather, even different types of bikes (mtb, touring, hybrid, full on road bikes) that will play a part in stretching a group out. But the one thing you can control is the regroups, and you did that well. You called for regroups often(in the shade too! thankyou) and made sure that the group was always together after turns and stop lights. Yes we got stretched a bit on places but everytime we did you called for a regroup.
There's ride leaders that have been doing this for years that can't even figure that basic concept out. At the end of the day noone got dropped and noone had to find their own way back to the car. T
The only thing we could have possibly done different is had a stated ride speed that everyone was comfortable from the beginning and stuck to it, but even that doesn't work because once you hit the first hill, or the wind kicks up the groupd gets stretached, so regroups are necessary, and as I said you did that well.


-Would have a better idea of where to go after the ride (ice cream place)

That was not your fault but mine. If I had looked it up on my car GPS versus my phone we would have known that the place we were headed was not open anymore and have saved ourselves the 10+ minutes we wasted looking for it.

Again I thnk we all had fun, everyone stayed safe and we ate pizza and ice cream. What more ould you ask?

Iron Chef, for a ride like this in a populated area, you don't need to note a food stop unless it's the focus of the ride. When I led the Clyde Ride on the Thun Trail in June 2010, I did plan on a specific food stop because I wanted everyone to experience Scoupe DeVille. If this were an extended ride in sparsely populated place (like PA's Pine Creek Gorge, or some of the areas in western PA and MD), then planning lunch stops is important. (For instance, you have nothing between Wellsboro Junction and Waterville on the Pine Creek Rail Trail except a couple general stores at Cedar Run and Slate Run.) Here, we were riding through towns. Food was all over the place.

I think you should stop beating yourself up for leading a wonderful ride.

We had a great ride :)

I will definitely make the trip again!

We had a great ride :)

I will definitely make the trip again!

And we need to get our posse out to here:

http://www.atatrail.org/tmi/map1.cfm

http://www.atatrail.org/tmi/images/map1.jpg

Common sense, courtesy, patience, communication and above all, an eye toward safety.

These guys look like they had a good time:
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/262798_2157503029601_1607271639_2122767_3826161_n.jpg

Except me, of course, since I always look like a Gloomy Gus in photos.

I don't think you need to plan food stops unless it's a very long ride. On my Saturday morning group rides we do a loop of about 35 miles starting and finishing at a restaurant where we all have breakfast together. It's a fun way to socialize and refuel after the ride :) Other things I see good ride leaders do:-

- Clearly communicate the route, distance and pace of the ride a day or two beforehand.
- Make sure riders are properly equipped for the ride (we've had people show up for 50 mile rides in 95+ deg heat without a water bottle!! They were told they could not ride with us)
- During the ride, stick to the communicated pace.
- Be clear about where to regroup, especially after climbs. Long climbs will string out the group, everybody, even the pros, climb at their own speed so regrouping after long climbs is almost always required.
- If it is a big group, appoint a sweeper, this is a competent rider who is willing to hang at the back and help the slowest riders or anyone who gets into trouble as necessary.
- Always consider the whole group's safety, especially on busy roads and at intersection/lights.
_ Have fun!!!!

And we need to get our posse out to here:

http://www.atatrail.org/tmi/map1.cfm

Count me in!

We did a ride today and I was the ride leader. Learned a lot.... things I should have done and not should have done.

So I wanted to ask.... what makes a good ride leader to you?

Well, we had an example of a bad ride leader yesterday. Advertising a no-drop 12MPH ride and then dropping people at 15 - 16 MPH is a problem. Failing to regroup or allow other riders to catch up is another. And getting in your car and leaving before all your riders are back is a third failing.

Well, we had an example of a bad ride leader yesterday. Advertising a no-drop 12MPH ride and then dropping people at 15 - 16 MPH is a problem. Failing to regroup or allow other riders to catch up is another. And getting in your car and leaving before all your riders are back is a third failing.

And this is why I don't do group rides with a "ride leader". If I am doing a ride, I want to enjoy the ride and not have to rely on anyone else for me to finish the ride, or if I am too slow to make the group wait for me.

Honestly, riding alone is not a bad thing. And a casual ride with friends is one thing, an organized paced ride is not for me whatsoever.

I was not on your ride, but I had just thought about this in a recent blog post (and here I go, quoting myself. Bleah!)
This ride, BTW, was a casual ride for casual bicyclists. So I didn't deal with route sheets or things like that. Some of these folks may only ride their bikes 6 times a year.

So how does one successfully lead a ride? Here are my thoughts.
Know your riders. Have a vague clue of their abilities and the kind of ride they'd enjoy. This is kind of self-selecting for the rides I lead, which are fairly well described and the riders choose the rides which interest them.
I have had to only once discourage a rider from one section of a two part ride, since I was pretty sure he was not physically fit. He found the second, easier half "just right" so that worked out OK. AND he got to hang out in a coffee place while waiting for the second half to begin.

Mother-hen them just a little bit, but don't get crazy with the rules. I routinely ask folks before we set out if they've locked their cars and if they've got water bottles, since water is a safety issue and worrying about your car sucks all the fun out of a ride.
Helmets are required on our rides, but that's an easy visual check. It is there or it is not.
If there is an epidemic of mal-adjusted helmets, I'll mention briefly how helmets are supposed to fit, and see who wants help fixing theirs. Here's a good resource (http://www.bhsi.org/fit.htm) for that.

Let the group know what's expected of them. Explain the rules of the trail, mention rest stops. Use rest stops to talk about what's coming up, don't try to pile all the information on at the beginning of the ride. Although it can be fun to watch their eyes glaze over.

Check on your riders every once in a while. I like to buzz by up the line of people (I'm usually in the back, sweeping unless there's a tricky-to-follow part coming up) and ask them how they are doing. If someone for instance (as happened today) is stuck in one gear for the whole ride but can handle it, don't worry about it.
If someone is looking like the heat or exertion is getting to be too much, get them to take a break and recover for a while. Make them drink water and eat something (I've had to do this). Sometimes you have to hassle them into taking it a little easy, but it beats calling for the EMTs down the road (which I have not had to do).

Know your route! If you are blazing new trails, make sure the group knows it and are comfortable with it. Many will not be. They want to see the leader as infallible. Where's the fun in that, I ask?!

Be prepared. I carry a first aid kit and I know how to use it. Although I don't have a common tube size, I do carry an assortment of tools with me. I know how to change a tube, remove a broken link, and unjam a chain. I stink at adjusting deraillers.
In the past I have fed people along the trail, loaned out a spare helmet, handed out bandaids, and insisted that a rider borrow a waterbottle.

Have fun. If leading rides becomes a hassle, ask yourself why you are still doing it? If you still want to do it, fix the hassles and carry on.
Fun is contagious, but so is un-fun.

And this is why I don't do group rides with a "ride leader". If I am doing a ride, I want to enjoy the ride and not have to rely on anyone else for me to finish the ride, or if I am too slow to make the group wait for me.

Honestly, riding alone is not a bad thing. And a casual ride with friends is one thing, an organized paced ride is not for me whatsoever.

I agree. And had I known this ride was going to have had a pace of 15-16 MPH, I'd have skipped it.

I was not on your ride, but I had just thought about this in a recent blog post (and here I go, quoting myself. Bleah!)
This ride, BTW, was a casual ride for casual bicyclists. So I didn't deal with route sheets or things like that. Some of these folks may only ride their bikes 6 times a year.

So how does one successfully lead a ride? Here are my thoughts.
Know your riders. Have a vague clue of their abilities and the kind of ride they'd enjoy. This is kind of self-selecting for the rides I lead, which are fairly well described and the riders choose the rides which interest them.
I have had to only once discourage a rider from one section of a two part ride, since I was pretty sure he was not physically fit. He found the second, easier half "just right" so that worked out OK. AND he got to hang out in a coffee place while waiting for the second half to begin.

Mother-hen them just a little bit, but don't get crazy with the rules. I routinely ask folks before we set out if they've locked their cars and if they've got water bottles, since water is a safety issue and worrying about your car sucks all the fun out of a ride.
Helmets are required on our rides, but that's an easy visual check. It is there or it is not.
If there is an epidemic of mal-adjusted helmets, I'll mention briefly how helmets are supposed to fit, and see who wants help fixing theirs. Here's a good resource (http://www.bhsi.org/fit.htm) for that.

Let the group know what's expected of them. Explain the rules of the trail, mention rest stops. Use rest stops to talk about what's coming up, don't try to pile all the information on at the beginning of the ride. Although it can be fun to watch their eyes glaze over.

Check on your riders every once in a while. I like to buzz by up the line of people (I'm usually in the back, sweeping unless there's a tricky-to-follow part coming up) and ask them how they are doing. If someone for instance (as happened today) is stuck in one gear for the whole ride but can handle it, don't worry about it.
If someone is looking like the heat or exertion is getting to be too much, get them to take a break and recover for a while. Make them drink water and eat something (I've had to do this). Sometimes you have to hassle them into taking it a little easy, but it beats calling for the EMTs down the road (which I have not had to do).

Know your route! If you are blazing new trails, make sure the group knows it and are comfortable with it. Many will not be. They want to see the leader as infallible. Where's the fun in that, I ask?!

Be prepared. I carry a first aid kit and I know how to use it. Although I don't have a common tube size, I do carry an assortment of tools with me. I know how to change a tube, remove a broken link, and unjam a chain. I stink at adjusting deraillers.
In the past I have fed people along the trail, loaned out a spare helmet, handed out bandaids, and insisted that a rider borrow a waterbottle.

Have fun. If leading rides becomes a hassle, ask yourself why you are still doing it? If you still want to do it, fix the hassles and carry on.
Fun is contagious, but so is un-fun.

The "mother hen" aspect of the ride was overdone and misapplied, IMO. The ride leader went on about the lack of services in the forest we rode through. In Delaware. A stand of trees in the First State is hardly the "forest primeval" of Longfellow's day. But at the same time he had no problem leaving behind a woman who was riding what a friend dubbed the "bike of Sisyphus" because she was slow-flatting every few miles.

Interesting.

In the WCBC rides we do, there is always a leader & follower. They both have communication devices to keep each other informed of what is going on. On all the organized rides I've been on with them, no one is dropped. If someone is lagging behind, the follower stays with that person. I've watched the leader pull over and tell the rest of us to wait for the rest of the group. If the last person is lagging to the point that the rest of the group will have to wait a long time, a decision is made to allow the last person to turn around or take a shorter route back, but the follower does not abandon anyone.

It is possible that this ride was tainted with favoritism. Doesn't surprise me, though. I see it and hear about it often.

Interesting.

In the WCBC rides we do, there is always a leader & follower. They both have communication devices to keep each other informed of what is going on. On all the organized rides I've been on with them, no one is dropped. If someone is lagging behind, the follower stays with that person. I've watched the leader pull over and tell the rest of us to wait for the rest of the group. If the last person is lagging to the point that the rest of the group will have to wait a long time, a decision is made to allow the last person to turn around or take a shorter route back, but the follower does not abandon anyone.

It is possible that this ride was tainted with favoritism. Doesn't surprise me, though. I see it and hear about it often.

It soon broke into "us" and "them", the Bike Forums posters being "us." We were a bunch of good folks, but aside from chefisaac, a BCP regular, the Bike Forums riders were ignored. Thankfully we are all strong riders save me. (I make it up in determination.)

Then again, I never know when there's some underlying animosity from my sometimes rocky relations with BCP (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/285944-Clyde-Dropped-on-quot-Instructional-quot-Ride) creeping in. It's even cropped up here in the Clyde Forum. (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/622064-Big-fat-PR-problem-for-Southwest?p=10435853&viewfull=1#post10435853) I was on good behavior, but it could be at some point it was decided I was too much trouble to keep with the group.

When I led the Clyde Ride on the Thun Trail in June 2010, I managed to keep the group together until after the lunch break. I rode sweep the final ten miles to make sure everyone got back OK. I certainly didn't drive away before everyone returned.

Just to throw this out there as I am new to the idea of organized group rides, what does an average pace mean? Does it refer to the moving speed or the distance covered in an hour? Does a 12 mph ride mean that the ride will move at 12 mph or cover 12 miles in an hour?

I have been under the impression it refers to moving speed, but after the ride Neil is referring too I was wondering if some people might be interpreting it differently?

It's usually the moving speed but for some rides the stated speed is the max speed allowed on that ride. In the case of the peach ride it turned out to be the average speed including breaks.

The funniest moment was the lady on the "bike of sisyphus" who refused any help with her flat because I obviously didn't have a clue about fixing a bike because I wasn't doing their stated average speed.

It's usually the moving speed but for some rides the stated speed is the max speed allowed on that ride. In the case of the peach ride it turned out to be the average speed including breaks.

The funniest moment was the lady on the "bike of sisyphus" who refused any help with her flat because I obviously didn't have a clue about fixing a bike because I wasn't doing their stated average speed.

Welcome to the club, Paisan. The club of people who aren't "real cyclists." :-)

Just to throw this out there as I am new to the idea of organized group rides, what does an average pace mean? Does it refer to the moving speed or the distance covered in an hour? Does a 12 mph ride mean that the ride will move at 12 mph or cover 12 miles in an hour?

I have been under the impression it refers to moving speed, but after the ride Neil is referring too I was wondering if some people might be interpreting it differently?

In the ride listings I've seen for BCP and other clubs it means "riding pace."

And since I've mentioned BCP a couple of times let me state that while BCP members were involved in this peach thing, it doesn't appear to have been a club ride - I didn't see it in the club's schedule of events.

and we need to get our posse out to here:

http://www.atatrail.org/tmi/map1.cfm

http://www.atatrail.org/tmi/images/map1.jpg

yes!

I think its a question that always needs to be asked of the ride leader before the ride. Is it a 12 mph pace or total average.

What screwed things up was the short little jont to the senior center. We were going 9 mph there and back which really played negatively into the average speed. We should have reset the computers when we got onto the main road. Just my opinion.

I think its a question that always needs to be asked of the ride leader before the ride. Is it a 12 mph pace or total average.

What screwed things up was the short little jont to the senior center. We were going 9 mph there and back which really played negatively into the average speed. We should have reset the computers when we got onto the main road. Just my opinion.

Sorry, the ride leader still left a lot to be desired.

Tonight I rode with the Tuesday group, we completed 20.2 miles in 75 minutes, including 3 brief (2 minute) stops. That ride leader in question was part of the group, as well as another person that rode with you guys Saturday. They ride next to me, but we don't talk much. I am the odd guy out; can't hear anything without my aids, so everyone treats me like a fragile guest. :rolleyes:

I've ridden with this guy a few times, but I don't talk to him much, his style seems to coincide with someone that only does what he wants to do. Now you know who to avoid when it comes to ride leaders. :)

Just my opinion, but the group I ride with are determined to push themselves to the limit and ride for boosting endurance, not riding for pleasure. I would expect last Saturday's ride to be for pleasure, which would mean slowing down and stopping to smell the roses, but it sounds like many riders wanted it to be more of an endurance ride.

When I ride with the group, I am motivated to push hard, but when I ride with friends, my pace is much slower.

There is also that ego factor; many advanced riders like to rub their abilities in our faces by going faster and watching people struggle to keep up.

It is humbling to be pushing hard at 19MPH trying to keep up with people that are 10, 15, 20 years older than I am. Even more humbling is watching the "A" and "B" riders pass me effortlessly.

Looking forward to meeting all of you guys one day.

I felt the same way Green. I was pushing hard to keep up with them and did well for the first 25 or so miles and then I had to drop back.

In the ride listings I've seen for BCP and other clubs it means "riding pace."

It means average riding pace, which I interpret to mean the average your computer will show at the end of the ride:

Class Difficulty Rate
Class A Difficult, 45 to 100+ miles 18-20mph average on flat terrain
16-18mph average on rolling/hilly terrain
15-16mph average on very hilly terrain

Class B Advanced, 25 to 90 miles 15-18mph average on flat terrain
13-16mph average on rolling/hilly terrain
12-14mph average on very hilly terrain

Class C Moderate, 15 to 75 miles 12-15mph average on flat terrain
10-13mph average on rolling/hilly terrain
9-11mph average on very hilly terrain

Class D Easy, 10 to 25 miles 8-11mph average on flat terrain
4-7mph average on more hilly terrain

In the WCBC rides we do, there is always a leader & follower. They both have communication devices to keep each other informed of what is going on. On all the organized rides I've been on with them, no one is dropped. If someone is lagging behind, the follower stays with that person.

Doesn't sound like you have ever ridden with Wally. :) I have liked all the WCBC rides I have done. Did the Port Deposit ride with Doug and Debbie a few years ago. Sig was on that ride. He was a nice man. Also did the St. Michael's weekend a few years ago. Also did one in the Brandywine are a while back that went out to Coatsville. Looking forward to another Savage this year. Hopefully we won't have the wind like last year.

I went on my first non-bike-club group ride Sunday. Since there were very few cyclists in the group, I got to pick the ride leader's brains to get a feel for what's involved in leading groups.

It ain't easy. The ride leader has to put up with the following typical complaints:

Too slow
Too fast
Too long
Too short
Wrong choice of roads
Wrong choice of pit stops
Wrong choice of restaurants
Wrong day
Wrong time
Wrong outfits
Bickering among riders

The list is endless.

Ride leaders set up everything, only to be criticized by some riders on the team. Not many folks appreciate the time, effort, and research these leaders have to put into setting up rides. As for the usual "cliques" in these groups, the rider has to make an effort to treat everyone the same. If that leader is part of a circle of friends, it will cause problems.

Letting the ride leader know up front of any personal, physical, or mental issues will help (of course it depends on the leader's personality). If the leader appears to be condescending or avoids communicating with certain riders, that should be a red flag.

In the club I belong to, I already noticed this behavior among a couple leaders.

It sure was an eye opener for me. I don't look at ride leaders the same way anymore.

One of the bigger LBS's in the area has a full slate of rides every Saturday morning. I decided to give them a go a few weeks ago. I am not hard-charger and didn't want a very long ride so my options were 2: the "Beginner" ride (10 miles, no-drop, slow pace--10 mph average) or the "Donut" ride (20 miles, no-drop, 12-14 mph pace). I chose the "Donut" ride (at the turn around there is a short break at a donut shop). There were about 30 folks at the start.

After a couple of stoplights we were pretty much splintered beyond hope. I was in a group of about 5. By the 5 mile point I was at the very back "sweeping" with a lady who was having a tough time of it. The leader was nowhere to be seen after about 2 miles in. The two of us maintained a 16-18 mph pace when we weren't being stopped by the stoplights. (The uphill sections were giving her fits.) We finally made it to the turn around point, she was getting close to popping and needed a break. Literally as we rode into the parking lot, the leader said "Let's go" and they all saddled up and headed out. I didn't even get turned around before the first of the group were back out on the street--forget about ANY BREAK AT ALL. I looked at my computer and it said average speed was right at 16mph.

Fast forward over the rest of the ride. The lady I was 'sweeping' finally had to give it up and the beginner ride leader called a van to come pick her up. I never did see the rest of my ride. I rode back in by myself and vowed to never go on any of their rides again. (Maybe a calmer head will prevail at some point.) As I pulled in I saw a couple of the people on my ride had already loaded their bikes and were about to drive off. I checked my final average and it was over 16mph. I was 4mph over the stated pace and finished at least 5-10 minutes behind the lead group.

So, what do I look for in a good leader?
If it is a no-drop ride, the leader should AT A VERY MINIMUM check on those at the back once in a while--not stay out front with those pushing the pace WAY beyond what the stated pace is.
Realize that the ones at the back are probably going to need SOME BREAK at the turn around.
Make DARN sure that no-one on your ride gets in a situation where they need to SAG and find that you are nowhere around.
Maintain the stated pace. Encourage those who are well past the level of the ride you are on to move on up to a faster/longer ride or slow down to the stated pace. (I was told there is a group on this "Donut" ride that like to push the pace but don't want to move up to the next level ride for fear of not being a "big fish" anymore.)

Being in a position of leader means you are responsible for how the ride happens. It is more than logistics. It is more than riding at the front. It is about being INTENTIONAL about what happens during YOUR ride. If you are going to stop it's because it fits into your overall plan. If you are going to pick up the pace it's because YOU decided to make that happen. Whatever the ride becomes, it's because you, as the leader, decided that is what you wanted to happen. Otherwise you are not the ride leader, you are just at the front of the pack.

DTSCDS: Sounds like your ride leader is one of the inconsiderate ones. Seems like we need to find leaders that have been in our position before.

It ain't easy. The ride leader has to put up with the following typical complaints:

Too slow
Too fast
Too long
Too short
Wrong choice of roads
Wrong choice of pit stops
Wrong choice of restaurants
Wrong day
Wrong time
Wrong outfits
Bickering among riders

The list is endless.

Just a few of the many reasons why I prefer NOT to be the ride leader.

I went on my first non-bike-club group ride Sunday. Since there were very few cyclists in the group, I got to pick the ride leader's brains to get a feel for what's involved in leading groups.

It ain't easy. The ride leader has to put up with the following typical complaints:

Too slow
Too fast
Too long
Too short
Wrong choice of roads
Wrong choice of pit stops
Wrong choice of restaurants
Wrong day
Wrong time
Wrong outfits
Bickering among riders

The list is endless.

Ride leaders set up everything, only to be criticized by some riders on the team. Not many folks appreciate the time, effort, and research these leaders have to put into setting up rides. As for the usual "cliques" in these groups, the rider has to make an effort to treat everyone the same. If that leader is part of a circle of friends, it will cause problems.

Letting the ride leader know up front of any personal, physical, or mental issues will help (of course it depends on the leader's personality). If the leader appears to be condescending or avoids communicating with certain riders, that should be a red flag.

In the club I belong to, I already noticed this behavior among a couple leaders.

It sure was an eye opener for me. I don't look at ride leaders the same way anymore.

Fascinating. I've led rides for three years and I've never had any complaints presented to me.

Then again my bike rides aren't about riding a bike.

Just a few of the many reasons why I prefer NOT to be the ride leader.

I suspect that's not typical. It sounds like green427 found someone disgruntled or an ahat.

I suspect that's not typical. It sounds like green427 found someone disgruntled or an ahat.

I've talked with a few ride leaders myself. In their experience, you can't please everybody all the time. Someone always has something to gripe about. And if it's not one thing, it's another.

I've talked with a few ride leaders myself. In their experience, you can't please everybody all the time. Someone always has something to gripe about. And if it's not one thing, it's another.

I'd separate "griping" from "complaining." Being annoyed you got rained on, or not liking the lunch stop, for instance, is different from having a ride leader drop people on a no drop ride. The first two are the human condition, for better or worse. The third is a legitimate grievance.

Anyway my point was the peach ride with chefisaac's buddies was led by a bad ride leader, for the reasons I've stated.

Neil: Has anyone started a thread on why leaders drop riders when rides are specifically set up as no-drop rides?

It would be interesting to see what kind of replies we get.

Neil: Has anyone started a thread on why leaders drop riders when rides are specifically set up as no-drop rides?

It would be interesting to see what kind of replies we get.

Hmm. As far as I can tell, it's usually the silly 'rule' that if two or more bikes are going in the same direction, it's a race.

Then again, the bike club could simply let anyone lead, no matter how unstable. Bicycle Club of Philadelphia used such a person for their 'beginner's ride' a few years ago. One ride was enough to see they made a mistake. Later it came out the guy had a habit of changing routes mid course without telling other riders. One time he ended a ride early and didn't let the group know - he just got on a train with his bike and left. (Reminds me of the leader of the peach ride getting a lift from a driver and then leaving before all the riders were back at the start.)

A good leader buys the guys a beer when it's all done.

And just so no feminist gets disgruntled, "the guys" includes the ladies.

A good leader buys the guys a beer when it's all done.

In all the years I've done group rides, I've never once seen this.

I have a "leader" who thinks that because they ride in front of everyone, they are a leader. Um, no...
THis person leads a beginner ride and usually fails to assess the skills of new folks before hitting the road. Many of them don't know how to ride in traffic or use hand signals or communicate and it's gotten a little scary a few times in heavy traffic. The beginner ride (10-12mph) has turned into a recovery ride for this leader and their friends, who typically ride 15-16mph and leave the newbies in the dust, frustrated, exhausted and doubting their riding abilities. And the same as others have mentioned, they fail to allow enough rest time for those falling behind. Managing faster and slower riders in the same group is probably the toughest task for a leader, but it seems to me the leader should spend some of their time in the back with the newbies instead of up in front yapping with their friends, who are far beyond "beginner".
Needless to say, I am no longer attending this ride. Beginner rides are hard to find, but I'd rather ride alone than attend another of this person's rides.

Just to throw this out there as I am new to the idea of organized group rides, what does an average pace mean? Does it refer to the moving speed or the distance covered in an hour? Does a 12 mph ride mean that the ride will move at 12 mph or cover 12 miles in an hour?

I have been under the impression it refers to moving speed, but after the ride Neil is referring too I was wondering if some people might be interpreting it differently?

You are smart to ask.

You would be foolish to trust the answers you get here. Not that the folks here are not knowledgeable, they are. But what matters is the measure the ride organizer uses.

I do not know any group that would include the time spent at major rest stops in the speed calculation. But I can imagine some that would count it as 12 MPH where the poor last rider makes it to each rest stop for no rest at all and he makes 12 by one of the other counts.

Typically it is one of 2 things. The speed when actually moving is pretty much 12 MPH. Time wasted at stop lights or waiting for traffic does not count. Or when they are not at a rest or regroup they make 12 by the map. E.g. if the first regroup point is after 12 miles they hit that at the hour mark.

Again how the ride counts things is what counts, not what I or anyone else here says.

One who makes sure everyone is on the same page as far as goals, planning, etc, and who makes sure his followers are safe & enjoying the ride.

One who does not look down on anyone in the group.

Bolding mine.

I think that is the whole of being a good ride leader. What many other seem to think makes a good ride I would hate. when I ride I want to ride, not stop every few miles to regroup. I do not recall any rides I've done with more than 3 regroup spots.

Now I'd be upset if a ride is not as advertised. I'd never do a 12 mph ride for myself. But I might go on one with my wife. I'd pissed off beyond belief if they advertised as 12 mph and then took off at 15-16. With luck there would be enough people still at 12 mph that I could make something decent of it.

My rides have always sort of been the extremes, sometimes both at once. Either the local club just provides route slips or a group that stays together. (Both at once when a group of rider who know eachother simply forms in those route slip only riders).

To me there is also a huge difference between abandoning riders and not staying together. The one regular ride I did that had no slips and was just a group of guys who rode. Often a ride started with the leader leaving his house and following a known route where we would get picked up one at a time. we stayed together. One variation of the ride went to Montrose. The rest stop was at a bakery and it was at the end of a climb.

It perfectly illustrates the difference between droping and abandoning. If there was a first time rider we would stay pretty close on hte climb. If not it was ride your own pace and meet at the bakery.

Oh and the leader had one thing that made him great for me. He gave great wheel. I could average 2 MPH or more faster on a ride he led. It never seemed like he was waiting, but he never dropped us either.

He gave great wheel.

Term of art? Or your own expression?

You are smart to ask.

You would be foolish to trust the answers you get here. Not that the folks here are not knowledgeable, they are. But what matters is the measure the ride organizer uses.

I do not know any group that would include the time spent at major rest stops in the speed calculation. But I can imagine some that would count it as 12 MPH where the poor last rider makes it to each rest stop for no rest at all and he makes 12 by one of the other counts.

Typically it is one of 2 things. The speed when actually moving is pretty much 12 MPH. Time wasted at stop lights or waiting for traffic does not count. Or when they are not at a rest or regroup they make 12 by the map. E.g. if the first regroup point is after 12 miles they hit that at the hour mark.

Again how the ride counts things is what counts, not what I or anyone else here says.

When I lead rides, the posted average speed estimates what your average speed will come in at when you end the ride, so it doesn't count time spent not moving. If it's a 56 mile ride listed with an average speed of 14 mph, the hope is that you will log 4 hrs. of pedalling time. If it's a hilly route, your speed could range between 6 mph and 35 mph. I think it would be unrealistic for someone to think that no one would exceed the average speed listed at any given moment. Indeed, it's an average, which all but insrues that you will be going slower and faster than the average at various points in the ride.

Personally, I would never list a "no-drop" ride because there is a chance that you will get someone who is not capable of coming close to the advertised average pace, and I am not going to let that sort of thing ruin my ride. My ride descriptions always have an average speed, describe the terrain, and inform the reader that there will be cue sheets for those who want to set their own pace. If a faster or slower rider wants to do the ride at his or her own pace, I am fine with that as long as they understand that they will have to navigate on their own.

And while I have never bought beer for participants, I have bought pie. I have also brought fixins' for jamon and goat cheese sandwiches as well as hummus and bread.

And while I have never bought beer for participants, I have bought pie. I have also brought fixins' for jamon and goat cheese sandwiches as well as hummus and bread.

I don't know what jamon is, but I'd be pretty happy if a leader brought pie!

I don't know what jamon is, but I'd be pretty happy if a leader brought pie!

The Spanish equivalent of prosciutto. Got addicted to it while touring Andalucia for seven weeks back in '00.