Bicycle Mechanics - Sturmey Archer 5 speed or 8 speed hub for hilly area?

Hi, I've been dreaming of building a winter/commuter bike for a few years now with an internal geared hub with drum brakes. I have a front SA drum brake hub hiding in a closet waiting for it's day. I am thinking of Sturmey Archer because they are less expensive and I have read in many sources that the drum brakes are very good and better than the roller brakes.
My concern with the new 8 speed internal hub is that from what I have read it has some issues that make it best suited for small wheeled bikes like folders etc.. But, I have also read reviews of people using the hub on regular bikes with no problem.
The 5 speed hub would have less gears to deal with, but concerned there would not be enough range for hills. I do have a vintage 5 speed raleigh with a derailleur and I put a mega range cog on the back. I can get up most hills unless they are extra steep, or I am too tired.
I live in the Pacific Northwest near Vancouver on the coast mid way up a mountain so have hills to deal with although mostly commute on the highway which is at a similar level. Not as steep as West and North Vancouver, but I do live up a long hill.
Pros? Cons?

thanks.

A few years ago I had been interested in a sram 7 speed hub with drum brakes but was discontinued(?)

Well, there's the hub internals, and then there's the size of the sprocket and which chainring you choose. Room for some customization there.
If you have a geared bike already, make note of what gears you use. Then spend some time with one of the gear calculators available on the 'net. I like Sheldon Brown's (http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/)
A bit of fiddling there will let you compare a known and working setup with the one that you are contemplating.

What I like to do is to set the calculator to "speed@cadence". I know my speed range, and I know my pedalling range, then I tweak the values for cassette/sprocket and chainring(s) until I find an combo that looks suitable.

If people prefer the 8-speed on small-wheeled bikes b/c it gets the gear ratio "right", then that can be tuned by going to a bigger sprocket(assuming they're not maxed out already).
If people prefer the 8-speed on small wheeled bike b/c it can't handle the bigger torque available at a bigger wheel, then that's a bit off-putting.

But I'd think twice about drum brakes. I was initially very pleased with my commuter, built with (old) Sachs drums. But I'm growing tired of its rather modest braking force - or rather the ratio between hand effort and braking power. Wheel lock is certainly doable, no doubt about that. But you have to haul like crazy on the levers to make it happen.
Now, obviously it'd be silly to assume that all drums are equal, but the diameter and design is certainly very, very similar.
These days discs seems to do well even in adverse climates, so that reason to avoid them isn't as strong any more.

i'd Go with, the 5 speed, and set up the external gears chain ring and hub cog,
for the 3 middle gears,which are the same as an AW3, with 4of5 as your cruising gear,
still have 5of5 as the stiff tailwind dancing with cars at traffic speed, as the top gear.

SA 8,the gear ratio set starts out in low, the 1:1 ...
the 8 speed,It is 7 overdrive gears.
For the hub I see 3 cog sizes, 19, 21, 23t, so a 23:24t gear ratio on the crank
is about as low as you can get. 0.9583:1 multiply that by your wheel diameter,
and that is your low..

Their 5 speed hubs, the 1:1 is in the middle, with 2 reduction gears, 2 overdrive gears..

and the hub cogs are the 3 speed type , so a range from 13 to 21 teeth can be selected
to match with the crank chainring size, to get the range the hub provides
where you want it to be..


Alternatives to extend the range>
a 5 speed [3/32"thk cog] , chain tensioner, front derailleur and 2 chainrings, perhaps?

Heatherbikes - I had a similar dream and ended up with what you see in the attachment.

I went with the Nexus 7 speed hub. The frame is a Dawes SST AL from bikesdirect.

I selected the chain sprocket on the hub so I can manage the worst hills that I expect to encounter (Bucks County, PA) and just live with the less than optimal range on the top end. In my case that is a 21 tooth. If I want to ride the flat lands (like NJ) I can put the 19 tooth on. I am fortunate in that the horizontal dropouts will accommodate this change without me having to alter the chain length.

The sprocket is not too hard to change but I would not want to do it on the road.

I opted for the coaster brake and a single caliper brake on the front.
I find this is very versatile and comfortable. It's nice to brake with your feet only when riding no hands. During descents I use both, and the rest of the time I just use the front.

It's a fun bike, so don't hold off on the dream. This is a good way to learn how to lace a wheel if you feel so inclined. Alternatively, you can have someone lace the hub/wheel for you.

Go for it.

Here's my Sturmey 8 speed bike. 31-100 gear inches.

215377

tcs - I like your taste in bikes!

Interesting how that hub requires such a small chain ring.

You got me curious so i went to Sheldon's calculator.
It looks like I'm in a 38-93 gear inch range with the 21 tooth on the Nexus 7.

That is one sweet looking ride!


Here's my Sturmey 8 speed bike. 31-100 gear inches.

215377

Thanks! Brokencase, your bike is sweet. What are those handlebars? I see them on photos of rando bikes alot and think ooh I like those.... but do not know what they are.
I like the streamlined bike tcs has. How do you find the 8 speed sturmey archer hub? That is what I really would like to know. I was advised a few years ago that if I were to use the SA 8 speed hub, I would need a very small front chainring. Your bike also looks like a fast little road bike, curious how it goes with the 8 gears.
I still do not understand all those gear ratios or what the numbers mean.
The bike I am thinking of using is an old french bike and has horizontal drop outs. I sort of rescued the bike, but the parts are not mechanically sound, so thought it would be a good candidate.

The handlebars are like the old track bars seen on bikes around the 1900's - eigthinch.com sells them.

The old French bike sounds ideal. What you might want to do to kick start the project is to order a track wheel set with a freewheel and get the bike going as a single speed first. Get the brakes, seat and everything else sorted and get the bike ridable.

Later on (after you have decided upon and have acquired the geared hub) you could take the rear wheel and hub to a shop and get it laced. Just make sure the rims you initially get have 36 spokes (which is what most geared hubs have). From there you just have to work out the shifter.

Plenty of expertise available here to assist you through this. No reason not to get started.
Post a picture of the frame when you get a chance.

I also would like to hear more about tcs' bike. I hope he posts again...

I have two internal gear hub projects waiting to go. One is a raleigh sport which will get a sturmey 5 speed hub with front and rear drum brakes. I also got an 8 speed sturmey archer freewheel hub on ebay, but still trying to decide which bike to put it on. The gitane is toast, but I have a vintage trek 420 frame I was hoping to build up as a fasty bike. So, as of yet unsure of which frame to use or if I will find the 'right' one asap.
I recently got the chance to finally try internal geared hubs. The 3 speed on the old neglected raleigh sports I was given still worked and was so smooth. The 5 speed sturmey archer hub was great and was able to get up a fairly big hill without too much effort. I also tried a bike with a shimano 8speed nexus hub and it was pretty good but didn't like the gearing on it. So, I was really impressed with internal geared hubs and convinced me further to go this route for a couple of bikes. The random and prolific use of magnesium chloride on roads and mucky wet, rainy muddy pacific northwest monsoon season is destroying my derailleur set ups. I see a tough raleigh sports for less hilly distances and another faster bike with a bit more range for the big hills. I still do not know if the 8 speed hub will have enough range, or if I should go the derailleur route. I am still unsure of the optimal rear cog and chainring combo to combat hills and still have some power for straightaways. I recently read a review for the Soma buena vista built up with the sturmey archer 8 speed hub and they put a 34 chainring on it.

Any suggestions?

"Hilly" is subjective. Your range of gearing is smaller with the geared hub, but you can set you overall ratio by playing with the chain ring and sprocket. So you can set the hub up for hill climbing at the expense of top speed on the flats. I have a nexus 7 speed hub with a 48T chain ring and a 21T sprocket. First gear is very close to the lowest gear on my normal non-gear hub bike. It lets me handle all the hills around me. I can still hit 26mph on the flats but it's a higher cadence.

Thanks! Brokencase, your bike is sweet. What are those handlebars? I see them on photos of rando bikes alot and think ooh I like those.... but do not know what they are.
I like the streamlined bike tcs has. How do you find the 8 speed sturmey archer hub? That is what I really would like to know. I was advised a few years ago that if I were to use the SA 8 speed hub, I would need a very small front chainring. Your bike also looks like a fast little road bike, curious how it goes with the 8 gears.
I still do not understand all those gear ratios or what the numbers mean.
The bike I am thinking of using is an old french bike and has horizontal drop outs. I sort of rescued the bike, but the parts are not mechanically sound, so thought it would be a good candidate.

There is no reason not to use the Sturmey 8 speed hub. My Peugeot PX-8 (http://flic.kr/s/aHsjwkDKJA) has one installed and I like it a lot.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6002/6205482407_248d9f585c_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6205482407/)
P1010510 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6205482407/) by Sallad Rialb (http://www.flickr.com/people/threefamilyalbum/), on Flickr

I am still unsure of the optimal rear cog and chainring combo to combat hills and still have some power for straightaways. I recently read a review for the Soma buena vista built up with the sturmey archer 8 speed hub and they put a 34 chainring on it.

Any suggestions?

I'd suggest with a Sturmey 8 and standard size wheels that a 34T will be on the large side for "combating" hills for most riders. My bike is 30x25 using Sturmey-Archer's FCS80 crank that was developed for use with the XR*8(W) hubs, and I derive the very useful 31-100 gear inch range that's served cyclists well for over half a century. That's pretty much as wide a gear range as you can achieve with an IGH without spending a lot more money.

I'd suggest with a Sturmey 8 and standard size wheels that a 34T will be on the large side for "combating" hills for most riders. My bike is 30x25 using Sturmey-Archer's FCS80 crank that was developed for use with the XR*8(W) hubs, and I derive the very useful 31-100 gear inch range that's served cyclists well for over half a century. That's pretty much as wide a gear range as you can achieve with an IGH without spending a lot more money.
+1. Same gearing I have on mine. Sometimes, I'd like a lower bottom end, but it mostly serves me well.

I also would like to hear more about tcs' bike. I hope he posts again...

Opps, somehow lost this thread back in August.

Anyway, I built the bike in post #5 up about a year and a half ago now from a bare CrMo frame and all new components (except the pedals). It's based on what I like and what's worked for me over the decades. It fits me really well, it's very comfortable for me and it wasn't really a very expensive project. I use it for, well, mostly just riding around and enjoying myself, but I've done a bit of light touring and commuting with it too.

Anyway, I like the XRK8(W) hub quite a lot. It's smooth, quiet, shifts fine and has a both a great range for my uses and really nice gear steps. It's shifted with a Jtek bar end shifter and that works well, too. It is very unhappy if it is shifted under load (I don't shift any of my bikes under load) so if you're a stomp-through-the-shifts kind of rider you probably won't get along well with a Sturmey 8. Amazingly, I have not had to readjust my hub's shift cable since I first put it in service a year and a half ago.

Here's a tip: if you're fitting a Sturmey 8 to a frame with a 130~135mm OLD, get the "K" (disc brake mount) version, even if you're not fitting a disc brake. The regular freewheel wide OLD Sturmey 8 has a long axle and the OLD is made out with a bunch of jam nuts! The K hub has a native wide hub shell with more widely spaced bearings.

Opps, somehow lost this thread back in August.

Anyway, I built the bike in post #5 up about a year and a half ago now from a bare CrMo frame and all new components (except the pedals). It's based on what I like and what's worked for me over the decades. It fits me really well, it's very comfortable for me and it wasn't really a very expensive project. I use it for, well, mostly just riding around and enjoying myself, but I've done a bit of light touring and commuting with it too.

Anyway, I like the XRK8(W) hub quite a lot. It's smooth, quiet, shifts fine and has a both a great range for my uses and really nice gear steps. It's shifted with a Jtek bar end shifter and that works well, too. Amazingly, I have not readjusted the hub's shift cable since I first put it in service a year and a half ago.

Here's a tip: if you're fitting a Sturmey 8 to a frame with a 130~135mm OLD, get the "K" (disc brake mount) version, even if you're not fitting a disc brake. The regular freewheel wide OLD Sturmey 8 has a long axle and the OLD is made out with a bunch of jam nuts! The K hub has a native wide hub shell with more widely spaced bearings.
I'd describe mine pretty much the same with the exception of the quiet part. While it's not as noisy as the Sram iMotion 9 speed it replaced in that bike, it's certainly not what I would describe as quiet.
With the exception of the lone non overdrive gear of course.

I'd describe mine pretty much the same with the exception of the quiet part.

Mine had some dinah-moe-hum (NWS) in fourth ratio from new, more felt that heard, but that's mostly smoothed out. :)

One of these cranks may get you the low gear..
http://www.sram.com/truvativ/family/hammerschmidt
and The 8 speed IGH
one version is a 22t, the other 24t, then planetary 2nd gear kicks it up 160%

I'd suggest with a Sturmey 8 and standard size wheels that a 34T will be on the large side for "combating" hills for most riders. My bike is 30x25 using Sturmey-Archer's FCS80 crank that was developed for use with the XR*8(W) hubs, and I derive the very useful 31-100 gear inch range that's served cyclists well for over half a century. That's pretty much as wide a gear range as you can achieve with an IGH without spending a lot more money.


+1. Same gearing I have on mine. Sometimes, I'd like a lower bottom end, but it mostly serves me well.

I'm with tcs and Dan here. Going any larger than a 30t chainset could be problematic if you plan to ride in hilly areas as you have described. As far as noise, it is the quietest SA hub I have and is considerably quieter than any of my Sachs/SRAM hubs. The hub is not as quiet as that which is on my wife's Linus Mixte which has a Shimano Nexus 8. I must admit that I want to like the Shimano hub, but simply can't get past the bad design which has horribly uneven jumps between gears.

Old thread, but I have a Sturmey 8-speed, so I'll throw a little info in.

Largest cog they offer for it is 25T.
Mine is very noisy... moreso after I replaced the internals (I had an older one, Sturmey sent me new internals at no cost). I need to pull it out and re-grease it.
I have the drum version, it's a heavy beast! 5 pounds.
I am using the smallest ring on a cheap MTB crankset (24T) and for climbing hills with a heavy bike (like a trike or cargo bike) I'd go even smaller.
You can get BMX 3-piece cranks that have english bottom brackets, where 25 and 23T sprockets are commonplace now.
MTB cranks with 104/64mm BCD can go down to 22T sprockets.

All that being said, the hub is very hard to beat for the price, and I'm working on building a recumbent trike with one (with matching drum front hubs!).

Hmm, I was under the impression that going bigger would be better for hills based on the soma buena vista review. But I also did read that a 30t chainring is recommended. I was wondering where I would get a crankset for this other than the sturmey archer one which I do not like the look of. The Jtek shifter is a bit pricy, and costs more than the hub did, but maybe down the road. Thanks, good to know people have had good experiences with the 8 speed sturmey archer hub.

8 best!!!!!!!!!! hills need most gears- period

Hmm, I was under the impression that going bigger would be better for hills based on the soma buena vista review. But I also did read that a 30t chainring is recommended. I was wondering where I would get a crankset for this other than the sturmey archer one which I do not like the look of. The Jtek shifter is a bit pricy, and costs more than the hub did, but maybe down the road. Thanks, good to know people have had good experiences with the 8 speed sturmey archer hub.

You could do as I did -- put a double chainset on the bike and use solely the inner ring. This disguises, at least to some eyes, the too small chainring and makes for a more pleasing aesthetic. In order to achieve a proper chainline, you'd need a longer spindle, but that's cheap and easily remedied.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6121/6205503055_b1dc75318c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6205503055/)
P1010514 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6205503055/) by Sallad Rialb (http://www.flickr.com/people/threefamilyalbum/), on Flickr

Lovely peugeot build. Is that a velo orange polyvant crankset? I had been thinking of getting it(it's on sale too) in case I was going to have to do the rear derailleur set up, but the frame I am going to use instead has horizontal drop outs. Otherwise I am going to have to ask around and scrounge around for the right crankset.

Thanks Heather. Yes that is the Polyvalent chainset and, at least to my eye, it looks the part on this bike. So have you decided whether you're going with the 5-speed or the 8-speed hub? I really don't think you can go wrong with either hub, though the small ring you need to run on the chainset with the 8-speed could be problematic if you want to have a more normal looking bike unless you do as I did and hide the small chainwheel with a larger ring or a chainguard.

...though the small ring you need to run on the chainset with the 8-speed could be problematic if you want to have a more normal looking bike unless you do as I did and hide the small chainwheel with a larger ring or a chainguard.

Funny - I've read hundreds of posts about 29er (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/mountain/sport/29er_sport/marlin_single_speed/) bikes and nobody ever mentions the way the necessary smaller chainwheels look; they just use what works.

I'll admit to having been one of those suggesting the 8 speed was not suitable for full size wheel bikes, but my experience since building up a 700c bike with one has convinced me otherwise.
I even pull a cargo trailer with mine, and although I sometimes wish for lower gearing, it works flawlessly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DfHo2UzV0w

Funny - I've read hundreds of posts about 29er (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/mountain/sport/29er_sport/marlin_single_speed/) bikes and nobody ever mentions the way the necessary smaller chainwheels look; they just use what works.

I concur with you when it comes to mountain bikes, but for a traditional road oriented bike, I think many find the aesthetic off putting. I am primarily about what works but if there is a means of accommodating common aesthetic sensibilities I will usually do so.

I've got both! I have a 5 speed sturmey archer hub and drum brake for my raleigh sports and the 8 speed freewheel hub for....?
Since I ride neither bmx or mountain bikes I don't really know where to look for such a small chainring crank

I've got both! I have a 5 speed sturmey archer hub and drum brake for my raleigh sports and the 8 speed freewheel hub for....?
Since I ride neither bmx or mountain bikes I don't really know where to look for such a small chainring crank

If you have a 110/74mm road triple crank, you can put a 24T ring on it. It would be furthest in, so you'd have to make sure the chainline isn't too far off, but it would work fine. What kind of road cranks can you get ahold of for cheap?

I just finished rebuilding a Schwinn Traveller with X-RD8(W) and X-FDD hubs and I love them both. Especially in the rain. I'm using the S-A crankset with a 30t chainring and the 25t cog that came with the hub and I'm pleased with the ratios it provides in a 700c wheel.

The only problem I have is the internal parts seem to break when I accidentally shift under load. It's happened to me twice now. I'm going to move the shifter away from where my hands naturally grip the handlebar to hopefully prevent that from happening again. I really hate that barrel shifter. It's manageable, though. When one planetary gear module fails, then you lose half the gear ratios. For example, my 3rd module is out right now so I can't use 4, 6, 7, or 8. That leaves 1 through 5 (minus 4) and it's just fine for getting around town until I make time to fix everything. It's still under warranty and my LBS says warranty issues are easy to take care of with S-A.

Not to derail this thread any further than it has already gone (but watch me do it anyway), does anyone else have this problem?

Pics:
https://picasaweb.google.com/102681634841900709307/SchwinnTraveller?authuser=0&feat=directlink

I have finally built up a bike with the 5 speed sturmey archer hub with drum brakes and love it! I can even climb hills. I've got the 22t cog and the front chainring is 46t. I assumed the bike would be a commuter to the nearest town where the grocery store is etc and a relatively flat ride. Well, i've been using it everywhere. The grade of some hills is just too difficult to bike up, but I have climbed over 1000 feet with relative ease. Okay, on some hills I am sweating and panting until I decide to walk, but impressed with how far I can go. I even took the bike, a raleigh sports on a mountain bike trail. I didn't know it was a mountain bike trail at the time, but it was fun. The hub functioned fine with all the wiggling. The drum brakes are amazing. You do have to remember not to shift while pedalling, but it's been great. I have kept the original cottered cranks etc until there is a problem and they are acting up, so will upgrade eventually.
I am so thrilled that I cannot wait to build up a bike with the 8 speed hub. I just regret not getting the drum brake version.
If you want a relatively problem free winter or commuting bike, I seriously recommend the sturmey archer hubs and drum brakes.

Glad to hear the good ride report. Does the shifting work well? Is it easy enough to adjust and keep adjusted? I have a Sturmey S-RF3 on my commuter bike. I sometimes wish I had gone with the 5 speed, but had heard that its shifting was finicky.

The shifting seems fine, I was told by a few bike mechanics that the SA 5 speed hub is a very good hub. I have not trouble adjusting it. I am having a bit of trouble that I think is from the old bottom bracket and crank, but not sure. Every once in awhile it gets clunky and have not been able to figure out if it is the hub or the crank/bottom bracket. I got the 5 speed bar end shifter and it is great. I was told that or the downtube shifter were superior to the other options.
It's a very smooth ride, reliable and so easy to use after much brain hurting over the instructions and installation.

I just realized this is a thread I posted to months ago. Since then, my SA 8 speed has experienced a failure. Sturmey Archer sent me a new internal assembly, but after disassembling, thoroughly cleaning, and oil lubing the old internal with one broken pawl and a broken ring gear tooth, I stuck it back in the shell and it's humming along nicely.
I still recommend the 5 speed over the 8 for any riding that includes hills, at least in a full size wheel.
Glad to read this worked out for you.