Bicycle Mechanics - Campy Mirage/Avanti parts swap

I inherited a 36h Mirage Rear hub that is missing two of the pawls and springs. I see that Campy lists the parts with the same numbers, but was wondering if there is any difference between the splined cassette spindles. Has anyone had any luck ordering these parts lately ? Know of a supplier that doesn't want an outrageous amount for them? Or would it just be easier to order a NOS 32h off Fleabay and swap out the parts ?

Just use a Shimano hub instead; they're miles better. All floating cassette body 'freehubs' pale in comparison.

If I had a bike with full Record it'd get a Dura Ace rear hub.

Just use a Shimano hub instead; they're miles better. All floating cassette body 'freehubs' pale in comparison.

If I had a bike with full Record it'd get a Dura Ace rear hub.

If the parts have the same number, then they will be the same part.

Theres nothing wrong with Campagnolo hubs, and it's not possible to swap a Shimano rear wheel for a Campag one, unless using a converter part like Jtek make. As for Dura Ace vs Record rear hubs, having got a 7800 Dura Ace, and a 2010 Record, the Record is nicer.

Nothing wrong with Campy hubs? I say phooey. Their flange spacing sucks, in part because of unnecessarily wide cog spacing. A Campy bike that can shift a Shimano cassette makes more sense anyway, if you ever need to borrow a wheel.

But that's not even the main thing (as important as flange spacing is). Do you know what I mean by 'floating cassette body'? The wheel can roll without the cassette body installed. When Shimano invented the freehub, they killed two birds with one stone. Most obviously, they provided splines and a cassette, which most folks seem to think is all you need to call it a freehub... but what else sucks about freewheel hubs? That's right, the drive-side axle bearing is close to the middle of the axle. In fact, all these pretend freehubs have the drive-side axle bearing even further inboard than a freewheel hub. Everyone but Shimano, hang your heads.

Sure, you can throw money and metal at the problem to make it go away, but the fact remains that if you start with such a flawed design, you have to over-engineer it to compensate. Licensing Shimano's patent seems infintely preferable to me.

Try and find a cutaway view of a non-Shimano 'freehub' online. I bet you can't... cause it's shameful. I found this in a '96 Campy catalogue I had lying around:
http://i51.tinypic.com/29qmefd.jpg

Compared to the proper way to do it, it's a bad joke.
http://sheldonbrown.com/images/k7hub.gif

The only possible functional advantage of the poor design is finer ratcheting afforded by the greater amount of space in the hubshell. Hardly worth it, and as you can see by the Campy diagram, they didn't take advantage of the possibility, at least at first.

If by 'nicer', you mean the Campy hub is finished to a higher standard, I wouldn't dispute it. But what's under the shine counts a hell of a lot towards my definition of nice.

Thanks for the info, Kimmo... but if i have to replace the hub entirely, I'll be going with a freewheel 6 or 7 speed style hub.
Looks to me like the Mirage I have actually has THREE sets of bearings : Two in the hub, and one in the freehub body, so the axle is supported on both ends AND the middle...
http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/spares99-B.pdf

What, you mean this hub?
216828
There are two sets of bearings in the cassette body. You just can't see the inner one on that pic. The red bearings are the only ones supporting the hubshell (yellow). The green cassette body sits independently on the axle and only interacts with the hubshell via the freewheel pawls.

It should be clearer on this much better pic I found in that old catalogue and scanned instead of taking a lousy phone pic.
216830

Pretty much every hub that isn't an IGH or coaster brake has four bearing races; two for the axle and two for the freewheel mechanism. Shimano, AFAIK, are the only ones to put the drive-side axle bearing next to the dropout, where it belongs.

216829

Campy started with a hopeless fail of a design, and engineered it to work. I'd much rather start with a design which I can't imagine significantly improving.

...I'm always amazed this doesn't spark more discussion when I bring it up.

It should be obvious that the Shimano design is inherently much stronger, therefore able to be made significantly lighter.

I'm annoyed that there isn't a single boutique hub manufacturer I know of that licenses Shimano's patent in order to make the ultimate hub; IIRC there's no shortage of fancy rear hubs lighter than DA, no? So it should be possible to go lighter still with Shimano's design.

Given that a DA rear is like 40g heavier than a Record hub, I'd say the way forward is to go oversize on the axle and perhaps shift the freewheel mechanism to the cassette body/hubshell interface to make room. Although I guess a more compact mechanism in the same spot isn't out of the question...


...BTW, I just realised another difference between Shimano and the rest - while pedalling, the freewheel bearings dont turn; on the Campy hub the freewheel bearings don't turn when freewheeling.

...I'm always amazed this doesn't spark more discussion when I bring it up.

It should be obvious that the Shimano design is inherently much stronger, therefore able to be made significantly lighter.


Shimano disagrees.

Shimano dropped it at the Dura Ace level in 2004 because the smaller axle and hub/freehub connection weighed more than an oversized axle that was big and strong enough, thus copying the five year old design Campagnolo was using on all hubs down to the Centaur/Daytona level (which one could equate to 105 in terms of comparable price and positioning as third best) at the time (2000+ Mirage/Veloce are similar in concept, but use a smaller over-sized steel axle and cartridge bearings).

Shimano 2004 DURA-ACE FH-7800 parts diagram:

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=216995&d=1314877332

from

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/FH/EV-FH-7800-2252A_v1_m56577569830728254.pdf

Campagnolo 1999 Record hub from 1999 spare parts catalog. The Chorus hub is identical but lacks the grease port and 10g saving titanium pawl carrier on the Record freehub. The skewer isn't as sexy looking either since it lacks the lever cut-out and D-ring equipped nut. In 2000 the design moved down to the Daytona level distinguished by an ugly skewer nut and remained unchanged until 2007 when the hub went on a diet (no separate pawl carrier, lighter adjuster) and Campagnolo stopped selling all but the Record 32 hole version when not built into one of their wheels.

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=216994&d=1314877321

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/spares99-B.pdf

Significant differences between Shimano's 2004 flagship product and Campagnolo's 1999 are

1) Shimano cups and freehub pawls/springs are not available as small parts

2) The Dura Ace hub lacks a grease port so it goes half as long as Record before disassembly for service is required.

Otherwise they're nearly identical. Also note how Shimano copied Campagnolo's seven year old deeper spline design as used on all Campagnolo 9, 10, and 11 speed hubs to this date allowing the use of lighter but softer freehub bodies without the indentation problems that plague aftermarket alloy Shimano/SRAM compatible freehubs. All Campagnolo 9+ speed hubs made since 1997 have been equipped with aluminum freehub bodies that don't get notched even when using loose-cog cassettes (I have one from 97 or 98 that looks like new). The current titanium short splined Dura Ace freehub body won't get notched either, but results in a hub weighing an ounce more than today's Record.

Most boutique hubs use the same axle arrangement, although their makers are too cheap to make cup and cone bearings or contract out their construction. Nearly all also skip the investment in the spoke hole coining operation that Campagnolo and Shimano use.



I'm annoyed that there isn't a single boutique hub manufacturer I know of that licenses Shimano's patent in order to make the ultimate hub;
Cycleops used a Shimano freehub and drive side bearing on their original Powertap hub. The clunky Shimano steel freehub and hub/freehub interface had a lot to do with it weighing 160 grams (almost 1/3 pound!) more than the next generation Powertap SL.



IIRC there's no shortage of fancy rear hubs lighter than DA, no? So it should be possible to go lighter still with Shimano's design.
Hubs with 15mm aluminum axles and conventional freehub/bearing arrangement are strong enough, lighter, and less expensive to produce.

Shimano's drive-side cup in the freehub body was only a benefit until people realized they could mate a larger diameter axle (with stiffness proportional to the cube of diameter and corresponding increases in fatigue life) to standard-sized end caps (for compatibility with all the frames out there with matching spacing).

/reels

Okay, so Shimano agree with me that an oversize axle is what it takes to lighten their hub, at least... but notwithstanding of the extra stiffness of a larger axle, putting the DS axle bearing inside the flange is a retrograde step in my book... imagine the extra load on that bearing.

Sure, the deeper Campy splines are better since they allow ally cassette bodies, but the steel or notching dilemma isn't an inherent shortcoming of a stressed cassette body; although I guess between that and a fatter axle it leaves no room for a ratchet under the splines. I don't have to think too hard to imagine an annular ratchet between where the cassette body's inner portion fixes to the hub and the DS spoke flange...

I wonder if Shimano just gave up on what seems a clearly superior principle, or if they prototyped an idea like mine, and found it impractical? Sure seems a shame.

At any rate, Shimano's actual freehubs are still far better than anything without an oversized axle.

Oh, and caged balls an option? I guess the jury must still be out on that one.

Uh, that 7800 hub design lasted for a very short while and then Shimano went back to their (superior in my book too) outboard bearing design in the 7850 and 7900 hubs. Shimano uses a Ti freehub body in their 7700, 7850 and subsequent freehubs for weight saving while still allowing 8/9/10-speed cassette compatibility that the 7800 didn't permit.

Agree the Dura Ace hubs lack grease ports but my 2006 Chorus hubs lack them too.

BTW, the Campy design may be "inherently inferior" but it does indeed work and Campy's bearing adjustment procedure that allows the adjustment to be done with the hub clamped in the dropouts is far easier and less time consuming than Shimano's. I wish they'd license each other's better ideas. :)

The appearance of brand evangelism just makes people discount what's being said.

The appearance of brand evangelism just makes people discount what's being said.
It's really a mechanical design discussion, not "brand evangelism" here. Shimano patented a superior design and everyone else is dealing with a work-around. I own both Shimano and Campy hubs and they both work very well. Campy does have a slight weight advantage and a better bearing adjustment procedure but Shimano had the inherently superior design.

The appearance of brand evangelism just makes people discount what's being said.

Are you looking at me? Cause IMO Ergo craps all over STI.

Brand agnostic here.

Until SRAM came along, my dream bike would have been specced with full Record minus the rear hub.

Now, I dunno...


Campy's bearing adjustment procedure that allows the adjustment to be done with the hub clamped in the dropouts is far easier and less time consuming than Shimano's. I wish they'd license each other's better ideas. :)

Indeed, but must it necessitate an oddball part like FH-RE028? That bit just looks like a hack.


...


Anyway, apologies to the OP for the hijack. So the correct part numbers will get you the correct part; why are you concerned about the splines, do you have to order the whole cassette body assembly to get the pawls?

And why on Earth would you replace the hub with a 6 or 7spd freewheel hub? Isn't your current one 9spd? This will have narrower spacing than the 5.0mm of 8 & 7spd. Your indexing won't work.

Anyway, apologies to the OP for the hijack. So the correct part numbers will get you the correct part; why are you concerned about the splines, do you have to order the whole cassette body assembly to get the pawls?



No problem on the hijack: I learned quite a bit ! :)
The cheapest I can find the parts is about $30 and I can get a whole new hub for about the same price. :(



And why on Earth would you replace the hub with a 6 or 7spd freewheel hub? Isn't your current one 9spd? This will have narrower spacing than the 5.0mm of 8 & 7spd. Your indexing won't work.
yes, the mirage is 9spd, technically, but it has no cassette ATM, anyway. THe Avanti is 8speed ,which is why I was wondering if parts were interchangable. It looks as if the whole freehub would swap.
Frankly, 8 is even overkill for me, usually. I actually have a few 36h freewheel hubs lying around, so it would be low cost.
And I never index. All my bikes are friction.

This is the most scientific and polite, Campy VS Shimano thread ever.

: )

This is the most scientific and polite, Campy VS Shimano thread ever.

Have to agree. If only US party politics adopted this degree of civility. (Don't hold your breath. Then again, Campag/Shimano is arguably more fraught than Dem/GOP.)

All that said: if I decide to upgrade my Avanti 8-speed hub, am I better to go over to 8-speed Shimano? (Is that even possible?)

7spd Shimano cassettes (or freewheels) will work with 8spd Campy gear perfectly.

You can just use a 7spd cassette with a spacer on any modern Shimano-comapatible hub, or add an axle spacer and take some dish out of a 7spd wheel, which will give you a stronger wheel.

...hang on a sec:
Nearly all also skip the investment in the spoke hole coining operation that Campagnolo and Shimano use.

What's that about then? Spoke hole coining?


Also, : p
http://i52.tinypic.com/1zme2hj.jpg


All that said: if I decide to upgrade my Avanti 8-speed hub, am I better to go over to 8-speed Shimano? (Is that even possible?)

You may be able to jam 8 cogs on a Shimano cassette body @ Campy spacing, I'm not sure. Might take some fettling.

I've done the cassette hub body swap before. It's really easy. If you buy the steel hub body new it comes with pawls and springs. It should be a bolt on. Remember, the longer 9/10 sp body means the wheel has to be re dished. It's almost always cheaper to swap hub bodies than buy a new hub and rebuild the wheel. Good luck