General Cycling Discussion - The shoes ruse

So I found this article very interesting and would love to hear opinions from both die hard clipless pedalers as well as casual platform riders.
http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse

I went to clipless pedals many years ago. I tested going back to flats on my mountain bike last year and I hated it.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/552538-Grant-Peterson-s-Shoes-Ruse

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/600878-The-Shoes-Ruse-Clipping-in-Doesn-t-Help

Opinions a-plenty herein. Enjoy!

Personally, I own and ride both. Platforms on the commuter/grocery getter, clipless on the cross/trail bike. If I had a road bike I'd probably put clipless on it as well, it just makes it more fun to put the hammer down.

Before riding in any of my last three clubs, I never wore riding shoes. I now belong to a touring club. None of us wear riding shoes and most of us discovered early on, that we didn't really like clip-ons anyway.

Another example of creating a need that never existed for the sake of profit____INGENIUS! :lol:

clearly, the whole pedals/shoes thing is all about personal preference. any of the various options come with their pros and cons.

for me, it's clipless pedals and recessed cleat MTB shoes all day long. being locked onto the pedals makes bike riding much, MUCH more fun for me. i just love the feeling of being locked onto the bike; it's like the machine and i become joined as one, as though the bike were merely an extension of myself. it's a metaphysical thing (ie. hard to explain). i like the recessed cleat shoes because i can still walk around like a normal biped when i'm off the bike.

Is this like the "Aluminum Hoax" thread?

Is this like the "Aluminum Hoax" thread?

Don't Remind Me, PLEASE!!! :cry:

New thing buy , Ergon pedals, nice shaped regular shoe petal.
Big reflectors, and the slowest rotating part on a bike,
got a permanently self lubricating bushing set,
instead of steel ball or needle bearings.

Is this like the "Aluminum Hoax" thread?

Aluminum pedals are totally a hoax. Like bike helmets, Bigfoot, or fiat currency. :D

The first time I went back to platforms after using clipless for about three months I immediately noticed that my quads were much more sore than usual much earlier in the ride. Took me a little while to realize it was the pedals that caused the problem.

Ah, the Rivendell Retro-Grouch, ol' Grant P. Sells his way of life as hard as he sells his bikes. If 'his way' works for you too, then by all means, enjoy it. If not, then do what DOES work for you.

There IS a notable WRONG in his private rant -- people DO pull up on the pedals with clipless. The whole 360-degree thing, is, in fact, bunk, but there is more power application with clipless than without. I experienced it personally a few years ago, after having to go back to flats for a couple weeks from my first year of clipless. My first ride, my feet FLEW off the pedals! I was forced to alter my pedaling style to keep my feet on the flats, and as a result, endured the most hideous calf cramps of my life! Shin splints from running were NOTHING in comparison!

Just like there is no one bike that suits all, neither is there a pedal or pedal style that suits all.

Nice try, though . . .

...........

for me, it's clipless pedals and recessed cleat MTB shoes all day long. being locked onto the pedals makes bike riding much, MUCH more fun for me. i just love the feeling of being locked onto the bike; it's like the machine and i become joined as one, as though the bike were merely an extension of myself. it's a metaphysical thing (ie. hard to explain). i like the recessed cleat shoes because i can still walk around like a normal biped when i'm off the bike.

Yup. I use MTB shoes for convenience. I like clipless. Two of my five bikes have regular pedals, my beach cruiser & my beater bike. Using Crank Bros. Candy-Cs, BTW.

When I got my current bike, it came with platform pedals, and that's what I used for about 6 months, before I switched to clipless for the first time.

One problem I had with platform pedals was foot numbness, and wound up buying stiffer (non-cycling) shoes just for that reason. The assumption that any shoe will work for anybody riding anywhere is just wrong.

My overall opinion of the change is that when you are riding, clipless pedals are more convenient. When you are starting or stopping, they are less convenient. So if your riding style includes stopping every block, then you may not gain anything from going clipless. If your riding style includes riding for more than a mile in between stops, then clipless seems the way to go.

I notice in the article, he keeps saying "If you race or ride race-like", etc, then his opinions don't apply to you. That seems fishy to me. That sounds like a weasel-way of saying "If you really do benefit from clipless pedals, then you must be a racer-guy".

I suppose just about everybody that has ever used clipless pedals also has used platform pedals, so it's not like he's discovered something the rest of us never thought to try.

Aluminum pedals are totally a hoax. Like bike helmets, Bigfoot, or fiat currency. :D

Leave me out this now...

I think he's absolutely right. If you have good pedaling technique, then there is very little benefit to clipless for most riding situations. Sure, you can pull up on the pedals, but the amount of force you can exert in that way is minuscule compared to the downward force. If you really pull up hard, then you will probably unclip. I think the real benefit to clipless pedals come into play at high cadences, like Lance Armstrong uses. That's when you really need clipless.

I cannot use clipless regardless of my feelings on the subject.
I pull up on the pedals pretty forcefully on a consistant basis, and apply force to the pedals in all sorts of interesting directions. I think it comes from a couple years of riding a 36er unicycle where pushing down is the enemy.

Aluminum pedals are totally a hoax. Like bike helmets, Bigfoot, or fiat currency. :D

Yeah, i have wide feet, so to use clipless, I'd need to buy $400-500 custom shoes.

So, platform it is.

So I found this article very interesting and would love to hear opinions from both die hard clipless pedalers as well as casual platform riders.

What? I can't be a die-hard platform rider? Come on now...

If you're interested in the pedal issue, get thee over to bikejames.com. He's mostly an exercise and physical-trainer type guy, but he has some thought-provoking (flame-provoking?) blog entries advocating flats.

I don't over-think the issue too much. I prefer not being attached to the bike. I like not having to bother with shoes. I run flats without obsessing about whether they are more or less efficient than the alternative. However, I side with Mr. BikeJames in my belief that performance benefits from clipless are over-rated.

I notice in the article, he keeps saying "If you race or ride race-like", etc, then his opinions don't apply to you. That seems fishy to me. That sounds like a weasel-way of saying "If you really do benefit from clipless pedals, then you must be a racer-guy".

I take your point, but I believe Grant's position on racing is reasonable. He is speaking in generalities. Sure, there are enthusiasts and fit riders who will benefit from and appreciate bike designs and gear intended for racers. But in the main, many recreational riders are better served by design decisions and gear more appropriate to casual riding.

Take seat-to-bar drop as an example. One of the strongest local racers whom I know rides with a seat-to-bar drop that would leave me with back and arm pain and flying over the bars. He is well-served by his choice, but most casual riders are better served by a more comfortable and secure position on the bike. Grant builds his brand image around the "not racing" rider.

I think the real benefit to clipless pedals come into play at high cadences, like Lance Armstrong uses. That's when you really need clipless.

I've ridden platform, toeclips, and clipless. For riding my mountain bike on single track, through water, up short impossibly-steep grades, and over obstacles, clipless is the only way to go.

I ride clipless on my road bikes as well. However, I rode a borrowed hybrid with platforms for a week while visiting my sister and b-i-l in Tampa. It wasn't a problem and provided an okay workout.

The real difference comes on fixed gear riding, where my rpms can get to nearly twice my comfortable rate...crazy fast...on descents. I find that I have the confidence to pedal fast without bouncing or worrying because of the clipless petals and MTB (recessed clip) shoes.

For recreational riding, maybe it doesn't matter. It sounds to me like the author of the article doesn't ride hard enough or under challenging conditions. He'd change his tune, I think.

PG

The real difference comes on fixed gear riding, where my rpms can get to nearly twice my comfortable rate...crazy fast...on descents. I find that I have the confidence to pedal fast without bouncing or worrying because of the clipless petals and MTB (recessed clip) shoes.

Buying a single-speed opened my eyes to the above issue. I can only pedal so fast without losing my grip on the pedals. I can readily see how being clipped in would be a benefit, and on fixed-gear too.

There's certainly no need to go clipless in most circumstances, but the more aggressively you ride, the more useful it is. So to that extent he is right, non-racers don't need them. He's wrong about not needing rigid soles, though, if you're going to do high mileages. The more flexible the sole, the more likely one is to get "hot foot" where the sole of tour foot gets sore from taking the pressure of the pedal. I frequently ride between 60 and 100 miles per day and I want a rigid sole for that.

Having said that, I use clips and straps rather than clipless pedals on my FG/single speed that I use around town so that I don't have to change my shoes just to mooch down to the shops or whatever. It's horses for courses.

Grant was always pretty good at rationalizing reasons for not selling something.

SB

I went from clipless back to track pedals, so I am one of those die hard clipless haters Grant should applaud; but I can't imagine not using some restraint system like cages or straps, or toe clips for a MTB. Just a platform and nothing else? I can't see that working for much more than a beach cruiser.

And he's wrong about any shoe working. As others have said, a fairly rigid soled shoe makes an important difference. I can't imagine riding any distance wearing something as flexy as a running shoe.

A cadence in the 90s is simply no problem with straps or cages, though I will revert to clipless in spin class where I'll do intervals at 120.

use what works best for you...nuff said

I've only used clipless when I bought a road bike 6 years ago. After trying it for 4 years I switched back to platforms with light weight sneakers. I live in flat urban Florida with many stops and starts. Clipless pedals seemed more of an annoyance than a benefit. I'm not totally against them, in other circumstances I might try it again.

use what works best for you...nuff said
Why is it that you can distill something down to a pithy, accurate answer like this?

Have you written a program that analyses a debate, comes to the one-and-only conclusion and spits it out on a dialogue box on your screen? You should sell it; you could get a coupla billion for it.

The biggest influence on my shoe opinions came from seeing some third world bike owners riding on just a spindle, with no bearings or platforms left. Barefoot or in flipflops. Carrying heavy loads of cargo or pedi cabs. I am sure that the guys on those ratty old bikes would like a nice pair of shoes, in fact they would probably rather be in a car, but it gave me some perspective.
And I am lucky in that my feet are strong enough that I can do really long miles and days with cheap flexy shoes from payless in quills with toestraps for days on end. In fact, while I do have stiff shoes with clip in pedals, they drive me nuts on anything longer than a couple days. My feet like to move around.

GP is like a Farmers Almanac of cycling. He has some interesting things to say, but don't set your watch to it.

Isn't this the article where he says that clipless systems don't do anything to help, and then says "well they can help if you are riding really hard in a sprint" or something..? Then he rants about how they're a "miracle of marketing" while he sells you a $2,000 steel frame and a $200 tiny canvas bag?

If you like em, wear em. If not, then don't.

Why is it that you can distill something down to a pithy, accurate answer like this?

Have you written a program that analyses a debate, comes to the one-and-only conclusion and spits it out on a dialogue box on your screen? You should sell it; you could get a coupla billion for it.

didn't you get the memo? I'm God...or Batman...or something :D

So I found this article very interesting and would love to hear opinions from both die hard clipless pedalers as well as casual platform riders.
http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse

Clipless systems are about efficient transmission of power from human to machine, usually by riders interested in improving performance, not so much for crotchety old retrogrouches that get dropped by toddlers on tricycles. I can see why Rivendell riders wouldn't be anti-clipless.

Clipless systems are about efficient transmission of power from human to machine, usually by riders interested in improving performance, not so much for crotchety old retrogrouches that get dropped by toddlers on tricycles. I can see why Rivendell riders wouldn't be anti-clipless.

Thanks, I just spit my soda all over my keyboard.:eek::eek::p:D

I use platforms, but only the kind that are open in the middle, being just a U-shaped band of metal wrapped around the core of the pedal. And don't forget the sharpish little teeth, very important. I just have to buy shoes with a nice cross the foot tread pattern, they lock right into the teeth and let me apply force for maybe about 270 degrees.

However I've found that the pull/push force maneuver only helps when starting, after reaching cruising speed there usually isn't enough time to effectively apply the pulling force before the foot has moved past the effective range for it.

He sets up straw men left and right. Not generating power on the upstroke is old news, yet he acts like people still think it's the gospel truth. The analogy to doing leg presses is also way off; there's a big difference between aims and acts involved. If I went for a ride of any length with crocs or sandals, as he stated is practical, I'd have blisters galore. Most clipless systems also don't actually lock you in one position.

Then I stopped reading because his first few points are so inane.

In short, there are reasons for dedicated equipment, but it's up to you to decide whether you'll benefit from it. Here, the main benefits are comfort, which I find a snug, stiff shoe increases greatly, and a more secure, consistent interface between the foot and pedal.

He sets up straw men left and right. Not generating power on the upstroke is old news, yet he acts like people still think it's the gospel truth. The analogy to doing leg presses is also way off; there's a big difference between aims and acts involved. If I went for a ride of any length with crocs or sandals, as he stated is practical, I'd have blisters galore. Most clipless systems also don't actually lock you in one position.

Then I stopped reading because his first few points are so inane.

In short, there are reasons for dedicated equipment, but it's up to you to decide whether you'll benefit from it. Here, the main benefits are comfort, which I find a snug, stiff shoe increases greatly, and a more secure, consistent interface between the foot and pedal.

Well, here's one that I consider a straw man: "You need clips or cleats to prevent your feet from slipping off the pedals." I guess this is something that is known to happen, but I am a clumsy old fart and it has never happened to me in several thousand miles on platform pedals.

Don in Austin

I use platforms, but only the kind that are open in the middle, being just a U-shaped band of metal wrapped around the core of the pedal. And don't forget the sharpish little teeth, very important. I just have to buy shoes with a nice cross the foot tread pattern, they lock right into the teeth and let me apply force for maybe about 270 degrees.
.

Sounds like cage pedals that you are describing.
For some reason, people have taken to calling those platform pedals.

One style of cage pedal:
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z284/JanMM/cage1.jpg

Two kinds of actual platform pedals:
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z284/JanMM/platform3.jpg
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z284/JanMM/platform1.jpg

Well, here's one that I consider a straw man: "You need clips or cleats to prevent your feet from slipping off the pedals." I guess this is something that is known to happen, but I am a clumsy old fart and it has never happened to me in several thousand miles on platform pedals.

After having used toe clips, PowerGrips and now clipless pedals for several decades, I do find that on the rare occasion that I ride without a retention device, my feet do move around too much and even slip from where they should be.
If I rode 'naked' all the time, I would probably learn how to keep them on the pedals where I want them. But, why would I want to ride 'naked'? I like clipless.

Wow. He is an opinionated old fart isn't he......