Fifty Plus (50+) - The Supplment Question Again!

I know this have been over many times. However, this morning when I am working out, an elderly guy came over and asked me what supplements or additives do I take?

I told him I am old-fashion, and all I take is one-a-day-vitamins, and when I get sick, my old fashion remedies of aspiriin, and sometimes baking soda and water. That's it.

The eldlerly guy came off and told me a long, long list of stuff that he was taking, It was so long, I had to start another set for fear of cooling down. :)

He must have listed about 10 to 15 supplments he was taking. In addition, he is about 60 years old, and super healthy. When I say "super" I mean way above average. So, I guess this is a situation where two people go at something in vastly different ways, and they both be correct.

Beer

I am not convinced that stuffing your body full of "supplements" does a whole lot of anything in the long run. I think common sense eating and genetics are worth a lot more.

Aaron :)

Lots of money to be made with supplements. Used to be the MD/DO and their unions, etc were against supplements. Even to the point of calling them dangerous. I always suspected their attitude was based more on money than concern for their customers. From recent experience where it seems every doc and related almost doc has their favorite supplement brand and regimen it seems I was correct. Everyone seems to be peddling their favorite and at prices that are truly astronomical.

That said, my personal opinion is that supplements are good if intelligently used and if a person can be reasonably sure they actually contain what the label proclaims. Food, especially supermarket food, often does not contain the nutrients a human body needs. There are several reasons for that. But, the old adage that a person can get all their nutrients from food is no longer true for a large number of people. Also, as a person ages their metabolism declines.

With the reduced metabolism a person can no longer consume enough food to get all their nutrients from food alone without become overweight and probably obese. I did the calculation for myself at one point and, assuming the food was available, which it wasn't and isn't, I would have to spend all my waking hours exercising to offset the amount of food I'd have to eat to get all my nutrients and limit my sleep hours.

The problem is that there is a paucity of reliable information on just what is in the supplements no matter where they are purchased. That combined with the snake oil salesmen and it is tough to do the right thing.

Genetics is still one of the biggest factors for health, strength/endurance potential, longevity and a host of other things. Every male in my father's family live to be mid 80s to 90s, and this goes back three generations. The only supplements my grandfather ( a blacksmith by trade who could pick up ny 200lb father with one hand when he was 80) was brewer's yeast in his chicory flavored coffee every morning.


Oh, but my grandfather, father, and all my uncles I knew, ate lots of fruits and vegetables on a daily basis.

Good diet and that gives me all the vitamins and other benificial nutrients necessary to stay healthy.

With the reduced metabolism a person can no longer consume enough food to get all their nutrients from food alone without become overweight and probably obese. I did the calculation for myself at one point and, assuming the food was available, which it wasn't and isn't, I would have to spend all my waking hours exercising to offset the amount of food I'd have to eat to get all my nutrients and limit my sleep hours.

Sorry, I think this is dead wrong. If you eat fresh food, and make a point of making fresh fruit and vegetables
- especially green leafy vegetables - e centrepiece of your diet, then young or old you can get all the nutrients you need. And if you keep the consumption of refined carbohydrate low, there's no reason whatever to get overweight while doing so.

As for availability, that is an issue, with many shops in poorer neighbourhoods here tending to stock only processed foods. Under those circumstances supplementation may be necessary, but it would be much better to find a source of fresh food.

I just do a reasonably good diet and use no supplements at all. They've not been shown to do any good at all if your diet is good and you have no professionally diagnosed problems. I have been a vegetarian for 45+ years, and do pay a bit more attention to what I eat than most of the people around me, though. I'm not recommending anyone turn vegetarian, just pay attention to what you eat: you are in control of that.

I did take glucosamine at one point, but after the 217th study came out saying it didn’t do anything a placebo wouldn't do, I quit taking it. Haven't noticed any difference after two years.

...chicory flavored coffee every morning.


My primary supplement:D plus a 50+ multi vitamin.

Paleo diet and B Complex vitamin.

As for availability, that is an issue, with many shops in poorer neighbourhoods here tending to stock only processed foods. Under those circumstances supplementation may be necessary, but it would be much better to find a source of fresh food.

We have the same problem over here and Our obesity problem is rising- Mainly amongst those that reckon they can't afford good quality home cooked food. I have a good diet and it is well balanced. Fresh veg at every meal and plenty of Pasta and rice dishes. Meat can be a bit of a luxury but Chicken is cheap over here but my wife cooks it in such a variety of ways that I could never get bored with it.

To be honest- we can't afford the processed food. It is cheaper to go to a Greengrocer for the veg than to buy packet ready meals off the supermarket shelves and I know what tastes better aswell. We do have the occasional fast food but A Grilled Chicken Kebab with plenty of salad and veg is good nutritionally and taste is not bad. Don't want to call it a treat but after a long day and neither of us fel like cooking- it is.

The only time I ever had to go on supplements was after the bypass. I had to take some tablets but they got stopped pretty quick- and the iron tablets only lasted a week till the first blood test.

A Good diet is far better and I won't rattle when I walk with all the pills that some people take. Helps me creep up on other riders on the hills and take a tow without them knowing.

My only supplement is 99 mg of Potassium daily to help keep the leg cramping down. I used to get leg cramps two to three nights a week that were so bad, I had to wake my wife up to help massage the leg. Since taking the Potassium, the cramps have all but gone. Every once in a while I get a cramp in my foot, but those don't last very long.

Lots of money to be made with supplements. Used to be the MD/DO and their unions, etc were against supplements. Even to the point of calling them dangerous. I always suspected their attitude was based more on money than concern for their customers. From recent experience where it seems every doc and related almost doc has their favorite supplement brand and regimen it seems I was correct. Everyone seems to be peddling their favorite and at prices that are truly astronomical.

That said, my personal opinion is that supplements are good if intelligently used and if a person can be reasonably sure they actually contain what the label proclaims. Food, especially supermarket food, often does not contain the nutrients a human body needs. There are several reasons for that. But, the old adage that a person can get all their nutrients from food is no longer true for a large number of people. Also, as a person ages their metabolism declines.

With the reduced metabolism a person can no longer consume enough food to get all their nutrients from food alone without become overweight and probably obese. I did the calculation for myself at one point and, assuming the food was available, which it wasn't and isn't, I would have to spend all my waking hours exercising to offset the amount of food I'd have to eat to get all my nutrients and limit my sleep hours.

The problem is that there is a paucity of reliable information on just what is in the supplements no matter where they are purchased. That combined with the snake oil salesmen and it is tough to do the right thing.

A great detailed response! :thumb:

I am on the other end, don't take anything. Also, I eat like horse, and my metabolism like clock work. Almost everything I eat, it passes through me. I guess that is the reason, I am 70 years old, about 30 to 40 lbs underweight, and according to my doctor, I am super healthy, even being underweight. I think another poster stated another important factor, and that is "genitics".

One of these, or similar, daily. Not entirely sure it is necessary.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z284/JanMM/grayvitamins.jpg

Sorry, I think this is dead wrong. If you eat fresh food, and make a point of making fresh fruit and vegetables
- especially green leafy vegetables - e centrepiece of your diet, then young or old you can get all the nutrients you need. And if you keep the consumption of refined carbohydrate low, there's no reason whatever to get overweight while doing so.

As for availability, that is an issue, with many shops in poorer neighbourhoods here tending to stock only processed foods. Under those circumstances supplementation may be necessary, but it would be much better to find a source of fresh food.

You called my diet! Fresh fruits, veggies, chicken, seafood, very seldom fried stuff. Maybe that is the reason I get by with just one-a-day-vitamins, and feel great.

I take a daily multi-vitamin and a GU Brew Electrolyte in water before and after a ride. I drink too much beer and brandy (for a cyclist) but I do eat fairly well. I've also started drinking a lot more water. At 65 I'm better and faster on the bike than I was two years ago when I started charting my 15 mi. TT.

I enjoy watching the posts of you who can still brag about your pure diets and athletic ability. It would be well to remember that just as babies grow into childhood and on into adulthood by steps and not in a smooth progression we decline by steps. Bump, bump, bump, downward from step to step. As that metabolism slows along the way it becomes nearly impossible to maintain without supplements. In my case even riding a bike 30 miles and doing a gym workout daily didn't burn enough calories to allow me to consume all the food I needed for nutrient content. Hence, supplements. I am not unique in this regard.

Another factor is the lack of nutrients in much of our nation's soil. Much of our agricultural production is from soil that has long ago lost its' vitality. Now the crops are grown as a result of chemical fertilizers and seed that is tailored to the poor soil. If the nutrients don't come from the soil into the food they have to come from somewhere. Supplements.

One of the current nutrients of interest is Vitamin D. Many, even in sunny climates, do not get enough because they spend the day, or in my case, days, in the dark due to work or geographic location. Supplements.

So many post about supplements with an almost religious fervor. But, taking or not taking to me is not the issue. The issue is whether a person intelligently decides what they are going to put in their body.

My bias is that about 90% of what is in the supermarket is not good for a person. It may not be biologically harmful. But that doesn't mean it is good for a human. Of the remaining 10% much has been grown in poor soil, or has been harvested early to get to the store before it spoils. Supplements help, only help, make up for the deficiency.

All this against the backdrop of a person's goals. For some it is long life. For others it is to look a certain way, like body builders, for example. I'm not interested in long life, never have been. I wonder about my longevity as a resource planning matter only. As the old saying goes: "I'd rather have a short bright life than an age without a name." Or, more modernly: "More life in your years is the name of the game, not how long you can exist in a "facility" somewhere."

vegetables, fruits, whole grains, fish & meat = food

supplements = chemicals (no matter whether their extracted or synthesized)

I stick to food.

As that metabolism slows along the way it becomes nearly impossible to maintain without supplements.

Source? Not arguing, just after further info.

Source? Not arguing, just after further info.

+1

Calorie requremment is a personal calculation. The foundation is that every morsel of food contains calories. The trick is to figure out your personal calorie needs and balance that number with consumption and then to balance that with the nutrient need you require. If your personal calorie need is high there is no problem. On the other hand if the food you eat is high in calories but low in nutrients there may be a problem.

There are a variety of government and major medical center sites that have calorie requirement calculators. You enter your age and other information and the site calculates your daily basal metabolism, which is your daily just staying alive calorie requirement. In my case that is about 2000. To that you add the calories for whatever activity you engage in. In my case if I'm snowshoeing all day I can add about 4000 calories. So, on a sit around day I need 2000 calories and on an active day I need 6000. Most days I need 2000 calories.

Then I need to do some more research to figure out what nutrients are in each item I eat or drink. A starting place for packaged foods is the nutrition label. Beyond that the information is a matter of research and calculation. For example: By current recommendation I need about 1000IU per day of Vitamin D. So, I discover and add up all the vitamin D from all the sources I ate during the day. If it is a day like today I do not add anything for sun exposure. In fact, today if I ate enough food to get all my vitamin D from food I would have ate many more calories than I burned. Thus, I would have added unhealthy fat to my body. Since I am recovering from surgery the likelyhood I'll burn that off tomorrow is very low.

I repeat this kind of calculation for each nutrient I need. Complcated the first time. But, one you spend the time and energy doing the calculation by interprolation is fairly easy.

Bottom line for me after doing this kind of thing many times: People over 50 usually have a basal metablism in the range of 1500-2000 calories. It is very unlikely they can get all the recommended nutrients for health while only consuming that number of calories. At the same time people generally greatly overestimate the calorie requirement for their activity and underestimate the number of calories in the food they eat.


Maybe a different way of saying it would be useful.

>Daily Nutrient needs are XXXX
>Daily Calorie needs are YYYY
>Excess Calories consumed to get enough Nutrients are FAT, FAT, FAT, FAT.
>If a person is young enough to have high calorie needs there is no worry.
>But the life envelope of an older person gets pretty narrow at advanced age. Calorie Requirements are down but nutrient needs, although they change, may in fact, in total be up.

One calculator:

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/harris-benedict-equation/

HawkOwl, I hear what you are saying and there is no doubt either that lots of people eat too much, or that many are poorly nourished despite eating a lot of calories. But I think your method - at least as you describe it here - is flawed, because not all the nutrients we need have to be acquired in their original form directly from foodstuffs. Our bodies can synthesise many - though not all - of them from other sources. That's how the sunlight/vitamin D thing works, for example, and I believe that retinol, which we need for vision, can be acquired either directly from Vitamin A or synthesised from beta-carotene in our system. 12 of the 20 amino acids we need can be synthesised internally from foodstuffs that do not contain the compound itself. So if you assume you have to source everything in its pure form directly from food, and then add up all the foods you'd need to make that happen, you're almost certainly arriving at a greater amount of food than is actually required.

One of these, or similar, daily. Not entirely sure it is necessary.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z284/JanMM/grayvitamins.jpg

That is what I take, same thing, different brand. My wife was telling me that my metabolism at my age works better than average. She pointed out that everything I eat (a lot)comes right out, hence no weight gains and no fat. I am still sporting a 6 pack at 70 and wearing the same size clothes as I did 40/50 years ago.

However, EVERYBODY is different, and that is the main factor.

http://www.doctoroz.com/

Unless you are experiencing a deficiency, supplements are not necessary. Eat well, exercise, hope you have good genes. all the rest is snake oil.

According to my latest go around with the family practice doctor, I am healthy, with no missing nutrients. She would like to see me lose 15#, but is not adamant about it.

I eat a balanced diet, and am not afraid to lay my fork down when I feel full. I go for as much natural stuff as possible, the closer to the source with the less processing the better.

Aaron :)

I take D2, Calcium and a daily multi-vitamin, all at the advice of my GP and my oncologist. No big deal to me. They say that I need them, so I take them. Do I need them? No idea.

I was told by my GP that aging bodies have a hard time synthesizing D from sunshine and the calcium ordered by my oncologist is assurance against the radiation treatments that I've had over the years.

On advice from my doctor I take a multiple vitamin and calcium. I have osteopenia and extra calcium doesn't hurt.

I'll bet that if I took just the right combination of supplements, it could make a significant improvement in how I feel. However, I see no way to know which supplements would really help. Trial and error wouldn't help due to placebo effects. There's so much hype, and there are conflicting studies. So I just take a multivitamin.

However, I bought some CoQ10 recently because I wanted the flip-top container to hold nuts on my bike rides. I thought I'd see if it lowers my blood pressure as claimed by some studies, so I've measured my BP every morning. Over a month so far, and no change yet. Some say it will take several months.

Interesting evolution of this thread. Actually its' title should be: "The Supplement Question Still". We know so very little about the health aspects of the human body. That knowledge is different than the mechanical aspects which we understand pretty well. Plus, many times it takes literally years for the effects of a particular life style or diet or chemical to manifest in something we can measure. Add to that our natural tendency to be lazy and there is lots of room for differing opinions and for snake oil sellers to make lots of money peddling their products.

In my case I have done the painfully time consuming research and have come to the conclusion that supplements are necessary for most people. Two quick examples. As we get more knowledge our understanding of the role vitamins play in health changes. One of the latest changes is the role of Vitamin D and how important it is for skeletal structure. As a result the recommendation for Vitamin D has been increased to 1000IU/day. If I live in Hawaii and spend time on the beach no big deal. That can come from even the poorest diet and from the sun. But, if I am an indoor worker in Denver, CO who goes to work early, works late and exercises in a gym getting that much Vitamin D is a problem. Lacking a supplement the Denverite probably isn't going to get enough for good health.

Another example is protein. Here the need is a bit more murky. Different knowledgeable people recommend different amounts of protein consumption. I'm not going to argue the merits of all the different opinions. For this example lets' use a common recommendation of 1gm/lb of body weight/day. If due to age your metabolism has slowed(see earlier calculator) so your daily calorie limit without weight gain is 2000 and you weigh 190 pounds you must use supplements or gain weight.

Decisions matter. The decisions a person makes about their lifestyle, including diet and exercise, are very important and may determine life or death, or, worse, whether the person is crippled or mobile; but maybe not for 20 years. All the clamor by people wanting our money or wanting power over us doesn't make the process any easier.

First you said he was elderly, and then you said he was about 60. Which is it?:D

No daily supplements, just a good healthy diet (with no fast food!) However, I do take potassium and magnesium before any 20+ ride. Without the supplements my legs cramp 15 to 20 miles in to a ride. With them, no cramps.

Another example is protein. Here the need is a bit more murky. Different knowledgeable people recommend different amounts of protein consumption. I'm not going to argue the merits of all the different opinions. For this example lets' use a common recommendation of 1gm/lb of body weight/day. If due to age your metabolism has slowed(see earlier calculator) so your daily calorie limit without weight gain is 2000 and you weigh 190 pounds you must use supplements or gain weight.



Sorry, this is just wrong. Even if you needed 1g of protein per lb, which is ludicrously high, protein is only 4kcal per gram so your 190g of protein would supply only 760 of your 2000 calorie daily requirement. And only someone who was trying to pack on the weight, like a bodybuilder, would suggest 1g per lb bodyweight. Mst authorities recommend between 0.5 and 1.0g per kilo.

According to my latest go around with the family practice doctor, I am healthy, with no missing nutrients. She would like to see me lose 15#, but is not adamant about it.

I eat a balanced diet, and am not afraid to lay my fork down when I feel full. I go for as much natural stuff as possible, the closer to the source with the less processing the better.

Aaron :)

We on the same page. ;) The natural stuff is on the money. Only place we differ is, I need to gain 15 to 25 lbs, where you looking to lose. :D

Come over to the "exercise" thread, we will get you pumped and motivated to knock off those 15 lbs. ;)

First you said he was elderly, and then you said he was about 60. Which is it?:D

They are the same!! :D

Sheesh, peeps rate elderly at 55.

When I race in WERA and CCS, in the senior group, they start at 40!! :(

They are the same!! :D

Sheesh, peeps rate elderly at 55.

When I race in WERA and CCS, in the senior group, they start at 40!! :(

I am now 65 and I've never thought of myself as "elderly", whatever that means. Really....that term is so foreign to me.

Sorry, this is just wrong. Even if you needed 1g of protein per lb, which is ludicrously high, protein is only 4kcal per gram so your 190g of protein would supply only 760 of your 2000 calorie daily requirement. And only someone who was trying to pack on the weight, like a bodybuilder, would suggest 1g per lb bodyweight. Mst authorities recommend between 0.5 and 1.0g per kilo.

See? By your language you have a strong opinion on how much is enough. That is why I didn't discuss that. This isn't the kind of thing that is subject to popular opinion. That is why I seldom take a vote. The Bandwagon Effect amplified by the Expert Effect is too likely to lead us astray. I don't agree with you and we could probably swap information for a long time. The net effect would be to drive BikeForum's hit count up thus increasing their revenue and filling their servers. In the end I wonder if either of us would change their mind?

Ice cream does it all!!

Ice cream does it all!!


Best when on cobbler or pudding made with rhubard fresh from our garden. :D

Best when on cobbler or pudding made with rhubard fresh from our garden. :D

Depends how good your rhubarb is but in the interests of this thread- I will act as a Guinea pig and suffer a good helping of Rhubarb Crumble tonight with custard.--From our garden.

Not a great lover of "Fresh" fruit but put a fruit pie of any sort in front of me and I won't need any pills to improve my health. Just miles on the bike to work off the calories.

Newsweek had an article recently where one of the journalists tried this. He had a complete blood work up. A company that specializes in supplements made a tailored supplement prescription for him under supervision of a physician. He took the supplements for 5 months at $1200 cost. He had his blood worked up again.

He looked at the differences. Everything was the same except 2 things. The first was his vitamin D level was much higher but he was taking a big dose of that in the supplements. Whether the increase was good or not is not known by medical science. The other thing was he had a nice boost in his HDL (good) cholesterol. The physician was not sure if the supplements had caused the improvement in cholesterol or not. But he had been taking a good dose of omega 3 fats in the supplements so the boost could have been the result of his supplements.

But the thing is, he could have saved his $$$ and just taken omega 3 on his own.

By the way, he gained 10 lbs. He figured that he had fallen into the notion of "license". License is the idea we get that if we do something "good", then we can reward ourselves with "bad" behavior with impunity. Thinking things over, he thought that he had lapsed into eating things like more fries and other junk foods resulting in a weight gain.

The thing is that most people can do fine with a simple multivitamin with minerals and omega 3 s and a healthy diet. The healthy diet will probably be more important.

What was George Orwell trying to say about the future in the book 1984? I mean people taking pills for this and that.

Depends how good your rhubarb is but in the interests of this thread- I will act as a Guinea pig and suffer a good helping of Rhubarb Crumble tonight with custard.--From our garden.

Not a great lover of "Fresh" fruit but put a fruit pie of any sort in front of me and I won't need any pills to improve my health. Just miles on the bike to work off the calories.

Love to have you over for some outstanding rhubarb. But, it is nearly winter here with first freeze any day and snow almost certain before the end of the month. But don't let that stop you from allowing me to try some of yours.

It does pay to exercise some caution with our fresh produce though. A co-worker ate an entire rhubarb pie just because it "was so delicious and we don't have it that good in Alabama". He missed two days of work. :o

Love seeing people using their own experiences, coupled with an array of "studies" that support their point of view, to expound on the "best" way to live.

Your way is your way; MMMV. (MY mileage.....)

Personally, I take a multi (women's formula, seems to work better, go figure), extra calcium/D3, and glucosamine/chondroitin. Each and every one has demonstrated a difference in how I feel, both with and without. Had I not experienced greater range-of-motion and less pain with the gluco/chon, I would not have continued taking it. The multi makes a difference between 'ready for the day' and 'fahgddaboutit'. Being a natural skeptic, I chuckle at placebo effects.

Ask "The Fitness Chick", who writes for Bicycling, about placebo effect; she saw the improvement from gluco IN HER DOG.

Do what works for you, and what you can do. Share it with others that way, as well.