Fifty Plus (50+) - Remembering 9/11

I took a little 30 mile cruise today and came upon this Memorial down at the lake.

"Mission: 343"

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r152/crankyolddude/September%202011/IMG_0322.jpg


It's hard to see in this pic, but each flag has a fallen firefighter's or emergency responder's name attached to it.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r152/crankyolddude/September%202011/IMG_0321.jpg


Here's some media coverage of the Memorial...

http://www.whec.com/news/stories/s2271440.shtml?cat=565

http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Sept-11th-Memorial-Honors-Emergency-Responder/0n83cNLNREC7f0xn_-2ETw.cspx?rss=102


As I was working my way home I stumbled upon another Memorial in the Town of Greece.

Smaller flags but the same big message...

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r152/crankyolddude/September%202011/IMG_0328.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r152/crankyolddude/September%202011/IMG_0326.jpg


Now I'm working all day Saturday and Sunday so I'll miss the several services being held, but I will be proudly displaying Old Glory.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r152/crankyolddude/September%202011/IMG_0146.jpg

There must be thousands of these memorials across the country. Has anyone else visited some?

I rode by all today. The smaller flags were just going up.

Thats awesome Cranky Old Dude! I will be flying my stars and stripes in the same fashion on my bike!

C' O' Dude,

Good post. Off topic, are you going to Frozen Fenway? If so, I'll buy the beer.

Unfortunately the numbers are somewhat in error.

The 343 number is those members of the NYFD either as firefighters (341) or EMS (2).

Plus 23 NYPD, 37 from the Port Authority PD (the buildings were owned and operated by the Port Authority of NY and NJ, which has it's own police force). Then there were 8 EMT's and emergency personnel not affiliated with government agencies.

All told 411 rescuers lost at the WTC with all statistics provided by WiKi but confirmed elsewhere.


I had the privilage of working the first NYFD new firefighter, academy graduation in 11/2001 at the theater where I am the lighting director. A number of those firefighters killed at the WTC were "probies" who had as yet to officially graduate from the academy but as part of their education had been placed in line serving units and as such, responded to the attacks.

The families of those probational firefighters were called up during the ceremony to receive the graduation diploma for the deceased hero's.

Everybody in theater, Mayor Guiliani, the NYFD commisioner, the new chief of the department (who replaced Pete Ganci, who was killed), as well as the department chaplain, replacing Mike Judge, also killed and both of whom I knew from years of these 3 times per year graduations, were crying. As was everybody backstage. Myself included as I do now as I recall the raw emotions of those days after 9/11.

As I typed this my wife asked me why I was upset and I told her. She too started to cry as she recalled working at Saturday Night Live (she's a scenic artist) the night SNL resumed and they had Paul Simon singing "The Boxer" with Rudy as well as Ray Kelly standing along side on stage. Everybody on stage cried - stagehands, camermen, cast, audience, everybody in the studio.

I had been, up to this moment, ambivalent about the 10 year anniversary ceremonies. I chalked that up to a feeling that "I didn't really "know" anyone that died. Forgetting how difficult a time it was to be living in the NYC area (a feeling I'm certain was not determined by proximity) and always finding at every turn, something that connected you to those moments. 10 years later I still cry over those days. Not ashamed to admit it either.

Before we get cariried away with "flying old glory," consider that as a result of the 9/11 attacks, the USA invaded, illegally and unprovoked, a sovereign nation, Iraq, killing over the next several years hundreds of thousands of peope who had nothing to do with 9/11 or the fanatics who planned and executed those attacks. That the 9/11 attacks were horrible, detestable, and downright evil is not in doubt. What is in doubt is all this "remembering" that we're supposed to be doing while ignoring our own culpability in our international policies. How many innocent people, to include women, children,and the elderly, has the USA killed in Iraq and Afghanistan under the pretext of "defending" freedom. While the people who died in the 9/11 attacks did not do anything to deserve their fate, neither did a far greater number of people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It appears to me that the media is turning this ten year anniversary (and what's so special about ten years as opposed to eight or nine?) into some kind of sentimental, patriotic circus. I'm sure the TV will be showing plenty of closeups of people with tears in their eyes. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do when I see this. The televised broadcasts of people who are truly emotionally upset to the point of tears seems to me a cheapening of that emotion, appealing to some voyeuristic impulse in those who watch. The media ought to exercise a little taste for a change, but as usual, emotions attract viewers, and that's what TV is all about.

A quiet, dignified ceremony honoring those who lost their lives on 9/11 might be more appropriate. It would certainly be in better taste.

The best thing that the USA can do to honor those killed on 9/11 is to uphold those values upon which our country is supposedly founded. Truth and justice for all are two that come immediately to mind. We have a lot of housekeeping to do right here at home with these two values, not to mention in the international arena. And perhaps we should demonstrate a true respect for those killed by not turning the anniversary into some national media event.

The true patriot is not the one who falls into line by accepting government propaganda as truth or who advocates the governments policies simply becuase they are the government's policies. The true patriot is the one who examines policies and actions with critical intelligence, approving or disapproving as the case demands.

I, too am saddened by what happened on 9/11, but there is nothing that I can do about something that has already happened. What I can do is live in such a way that contributes to the building of a world based on fairness, justice, kindness, and peaceful coexistence.

Unfortunately the numbers are somewhat in error.

The 343 number is those members of the NYFD either as firefighters (341) or EMS (2).

Plus 23 NYPD, 37 from the Port Authority PD (the buildings were owned and operated by the Port Authority of NY and NJ, which has it's own police force). Then there were 8 EMT's and emergency personnel not affiliated with government agencies.

All told 411 rescuers lost at the WTC with all statistics provided by WiKi but confirmed elsewhere.


I had the privilage of working the first NYFD new firefighter, academy graduation in 11/2001 at the theater where I am the lighting director. A number of those firefighters killed at the WTC were "probies" who had as yet to officially graduate from the academy but as part of their education had been placed in line serving units and as such, responded to the attacks.

The families of those probational firefighters were called up during the ceremony to receive the graduation diploma for the deceased hero's.

Everybody in theater, Mayor Guiliani, the NYFD commisioner, the new chief of the department (who replaced Pete Ganci, who was killed), as well as the department chaplain, replacing Mike Judge, also killed and both of whom I knew from years of these 3 times per year graduations, were crying. As was everybody backstage. Myself included as I do now as I recall the raw emotions of those days after 9/11.

As I typed this my wife asked me why I was upset and I told her. She too started to cry as she recalled working at Saturday Night Live (she's a scenic artist) the night SNL resumed and they had Paul Simon singing "The Boxer" with Rudy as well as Ray Kelly standing along side on stage. Everybody on stage cried - stagehands, camermen, cast, audience, everybody in the studio.

I had been, up to this moment, ambivalent about the 10 year anniversary ceremonies. I chalked that up to a feeling that "I didn't really "know" anyone that died. Forgetting how difficult a time it was to be living in the NYC area (a feeling I'm certain was not determined by proximity) and always finding at every turn, something that connected you to those moments. 10 years later I still cry over those days. Not ashamed to admit it either.Thanks for posting this prospective, being there must have been so hard. So sorry.

Before we get cariried away with "flying old glory," consider that as a result of the 9/11 attacks, the USA invaded, illegally and unprovoked, a sovereign nation, Iraq, killing over the next several years hundreds of thousands of peope who had nothing to do with 9/11 or the fanatics who planned and executed those attacks. That the 9/11 attacks were horrible, detestable, and downright evil is not in doubt. What is in doubt is all this "remembering" that we're supposed to be doing while ignoring our own culpability in our international policies. How many innocent people, to include women, children,and the elderly, has the USA killed in Iraq and Afghanistan under the pretext of "defending" freedom. While the people who died in the 9/11 attacks did not do anything to deserve their fate, neither did a far greater number of people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It appears to me that the media is turning this ten year anniversary (and what's so special about ten years as opposed to eight or nine?) into some kind of sentimental, patriotic circus. I'm sure the TV will be showing plenty of closeups of people with tears in their eyes. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do when I see this. The televised broadcasts of people who are truly emotionally upset to the point of tears seems to me a cheapening of that emotion, appealing to some voyeuristic impulse in those who watch. The media ought to exercise a little taste for a change, but as usual, emotions attract viewers, and that's what TV is all about.

A quiet, dignified ceremony honoring those who lost their lives on 9/11 might be more appropriate. It would certainly be in better taste.

The best thing that the USA can do to honor those killed on 9/11 is to uphold those values upon which our country is supposedly founded. Truth and justice for all are two that come immediately to mind. We have a lot of housekeeping to do right here at home with these two values, not to mention in the international arena. And perhaps we should demonstrate a true respect for those killed by not turning the anniversary into some national media event.

The true patriot is not the one who falls into line by accepting government propaganda as truth or who advocates the governments policies simply becuase they are the government's policies. The true patriot is the one who examines policies and actions with critical intelligence, approving or disapproving as the case demands.

I, too am saddened by what happened on 9/11, but there is nothing that I can do about something that has already happened. What I can do is live in such a way that contributes to the building of a world based on fairness, justice, kindness, and peaceful coexistence.I couldn't agree with this more, thanks for putting this into words. All of the years after 9/11 the bush administration kept the fear level artificially high, kept telling us that we are sure to be "hit again" as Cheney was fond of saying. Shame on people this low. Trillions spent on this would have easily paid for good healthcare for all and fully fund education, but it didn't. Maybe we'll learn from this history, or we'll let someone rewrite it.

As I expected, I couldn't read ten posts in a 50+ thread on 9/11 without someone rubbishing the US.

This is why there is a Politics and Religion forum folks.
Fifty + is a quiet little corner where older people can gather to discuss their bikes and rides and anything else they have in common.
I neither need nor want to know that some of the people I admire for their knowledge and wit have political views that can send me up the wall.

343 NYC firemen rushed into hell and never came back. These people are heros! Whether the Towers had come down due to a catastropic ocurance such as an earthquake, huricane, or natural gas explosion....those firefighters would still have stormed in and we would still be honoring their memory. Let's don't confuse their sacrifices and the sacrifices of their families with politics.

This kind of dedication, bravery, and heroism should be honored regardless of what nation it occurs in. Had it been Canada or Mexico for example, I'ld fly their Colors in tribute!

I stand by my first post and beg you folks to post your political views elsewhere.

Thank You.

What a heart wrenching time. There are many nations that owe America an unpayable debt of Freedom. God Bless America and God Bless the Stars and Stripes. From Wales.

Before we get cariried away with "flying old glory," consider that as a result of the 9/11 attacks, the USA invaded, illegally and unprovoked, a sovereign nation, Iraq, killing over the next several years hundreds of thousands of peope who had nothing to do with 9/11 or the fanatics who planned and executed those attacks. That the 9/11 attacks were horrible, detestable, and downright evil is not in doubt. What is in doubt is all this "remembering" that we're supposed to be doing while ignoring our own culpability in our international policies. How many innocent people, to include women, children,and the elderly, has the USA killed in Iraq and Afghanistan under the pretext of "defending" freedom. While the people who died in the 9/11 attacks did not do anything to deserve their fate, neither did a far greater number of people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It appears to me that the media is turning this ten year anniversary (and what's so special about ten years as opposed to eight or nine?) into some kind of sentimental, patriotic circus. I'm sure the TV will be showing plenty of closeups of people with tears in their eyes. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do when I see this. The televised broadcasts of people who are truly emotionally upset to the point of tears seems to me a cheapening of that emotion, appealing to some voyeuristic impulse in those who watch. The media ought to exercise a little taste for a change, but as usual, emotions attract viewers, and that's what TV is all about.

A quiet, dignified ceremony honoring those who lost their lives on 9/11 might be more appropriate. It would certainly be in better taste.

The best thing that the USA can do to honor those killed on 9/11 is to uphold those values upon which our country is supposedly founded. Truth and justice for all are two that come immediately to mind. We have a lot of housekeeping to do right here at home with these two values, not to mention in the international arena. And perhaps we should demonstrate a true respect for those killed by not turning the anniversary into some national media event.

The true patriot is not the one who falls into line by accepting government propaganda as truth or who advocates the governments policies simply becuase they are the government's policies. The true patriot is the one who examines policies and actions with critical intelligence, approving or disapproving as the case demands.

I, too am saddened by what happened on 9/11, but there is nothing that I can do about something that has already happened. What I can do is live in such a way that contributes to the building of a world based on fairness, justice, kindness, and peaceful coexistence.

Without diminishing the respect of those lives lost, this is far and away the most intelligent post I have read on these forums. Critical thinking at its best.

We lost friends on both the flights that went into the North and South towers. Both happen to have been flight attendants. One we knew was flying that day, the other we found out about later. Too many people died on that day, period.

Aaron :)

This is why there is a Politics and Religion forum folks.
Fifty + is a quiet little corner where older people can gather to discuss their bikes and rides and anything else they have in common.
I neither need nor want to know that some of the people I admire for their knowledge and wit have political views that can send me up the wall.
Agreed. Let's get back to riding our bikes and talking bike things and steer away from the current topic or this thread will be off to P&R in a heartbeat.

Agreed. Let's get back to riding our bikes and talking bike things and steer away from the current topic or this thread will be off to P&R in a heartbeat.

Things are only considered political on 50+ when someone disagrees with the left-wing consensus.

excellent.
How anyone can disagree with a post like this is just sick.
Libs just can't help themselves. Pray for them.

I tried to present a respectful post honoring NYC's fallen firemen. Apparently my communication skills are somewhat lacking (no college degree here) as I have failed miserably. I'm sorry I ever even started this thread as the skills to do so properly obviously elude me.

That a group of folks our age would fail to recognize and respect the purpose of this thread in spite of my literary shortcomings causes me pause.

Time to find a new sandbox I think.

I tried to present a respectful post honoring NYC's fallen firemen. Apparently my communication skills are somewhat lacking (no college degree here) as I have failed miserably. I'm sorry I ever even started this thread as the skills to do so properly obviously elude me.

That a group of folks our age would fail to grasp the purpose of this thread in spite of my literary shortcomings causes me pause.

Time to find a new sandbox I think.

It is not your fault. Thank you for having the courage to care.

It is not your fault. Thank you for having the courage to care.

Ditto that.

I don't live near any of the 'ground zero' locations, or a memorial, so I'll pay my respects nearby, at the East Vincent Revolutionary War cemetery:

https://s-hphotos-sjc1.fbcdn.net/250039_1930415352551_1607271639_1900588_1001602_n.jpg

Agree. All that flag waving idiocy is what allowed our corrupt scumbag politicians to get us into these horrific wars with incredible loss of life, misery, and national treasure not to mention the destruction of our rights. I spent most of my life in the Marine Corps with multiple combat tours and enough wounds to finally require a medical discharge. I've never seen anyone wave a flag on a battlefield. There are other ways to remember the dead of 9/11 without more foolish nationalism. Those of us who have fought and are fighting these wars have had enough of the sunshine patriots and the chickenhawks.


Before we get cariried away with "flying old glory," consider that as a result of the 9/11 attacks, the USA invaded, illegally and unprovoked, a sovereign nation, Iraq, killing over the next several years hundreds of thousands of peope who had nothing to do with 9/11 or the fanatics who planned and executed those attacks. That the 9/11 attacks were horrible, detestable, and downright evil is not in doubt. What is in doubt is all this "remembering" that we're supposed to be doing while ignoring our own culpability in our international policies. How many innocent people, to include women, children,and the elderly, has the USA killed in Iraq and Afghanistan under the pretext of "defending" freedom. While the people who died in the 9/11 attacks did not do anything to deserve their fate, neither did a far greater number of people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It appears to me that the media is turning this ten year anniversary (and what's so special about ten years as opposed to eight or nine?) into some kind of sentimental, patriotic circus. I'm sure the TV will be showing plenty of closeups of people with tears in their eyes. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do when I see this. The televised broadcasts of people who are truly emotionally upset to the point of tears seems to me a cheapening of that emotion, appealing to some voyeuristic impulse in those who watch. The media ought to exercise a little taste for a change, but as usual, emotions attract viewers, and that's what TV is all about.

A quiet, dignified ceremony honoring those who lost their lives on 9/11 might be more appropriate. It would certainly be in better taste.

The best thing that the USA can do to honor those killed on 9/11 is to uphold those values upon which our country is supposedly founded. Truth and justice for all are two that come immediately to mind. We have a lot of housekeeping to do right here at home with these two values, not to mention in the international arena. And perhaps we should demonstrate a true respect for those killed by not turning the anniversary into some national media event.

The true patriot is not the one who falls into line by accepting government propaganda as truth or who advocates the governments policies simply becuase they are the government's policies. The true patriot is the one who examines policies and actions with critical intelligence, approving or disapproving as the case demands.

I, too am saddened by what happened on 9/11, but there is nothing that I can do about something that has already happened. What I can do is live in such a way that contributes to the building of a world based on fairness, justice, kindness, and peaceful coexistence.

At the time I was a volunteer firefighter and lead medic in a suburban/rural ems setting. My immediate thought was to wonder how it happened and to respect the people who exemplified the best in our service tradition. I still have my "We Won't Forget" hat. Neither I nor the rest of the people who are serving, or who have served, will forget those who have been injured or killed while doing their duty. That includes not only those on that day, but those on every other day. For me and many others the phrase "Duty, Honor, Country" is not just a slogan.

At the same time I have extreme distaste for the current media driven displays. The net effect of them is to reinforce the image that the most influential leader of the past many years is Osama bin Laden. After participating in a successful fight to defeat the Russians and have them retreat from Afganistan he led a successful strike on the US that caused the US to fundamentally change its' society. it also led to the longest war in US history that has claimed the lives and treasures of many thousand people; many of whom had no desire other than to live their lives as best they knew how.

To me the media, and for that matter all of us, can best memorialize those who have given by doing our best to continue to make our country one that matters. Not one whose moral and economic wealth was squandered on fruitless endeavours. Remember, shed a tear and put those hands back on the plow. Poor countries have poor influence. We don't want America to be one of them.

Unfortunately the numbers are somewhat in error.

The 343 number is those members of the NYFD either as firefighters (341) or EMS (2).

Plus 23 NYPD, 37 from the Port Authority PD (the buildings were owned and operated by the Port Authority of NY and NJ, which has it's own police force). Then there were 8 EMT's and emergency personnel not affiliated with government agencies.

All told 411 rescuers lost at the WTC with all statistics provided by WiKi but confirmed elsewhere.


I had the privilage of working the first NYFD new firefighter, academy graduation in 11/2001 at the theater where I am the lighting director. A number of those firefighters killed at the WTC were "probies" who had as yet to officially graduate from the academy but as part of their education had been placed in line serving units and as such, responded to the attacks.

The families of those probational firefighters were called up during the ceremony to receive the graduation diploma for the deceased hero's.

Everybody in theater, Mayor Guiliani, the NYFD commisioner, the new chief of the department (who replaced Pete Ganci, who was killed), as well as the department chaplain, replacing Mike Judge, also killed and both of whom I knew from years of these 3 times per year graduations, were crying. As was everybody backstage. Myself included as I do now as I recall the raw emotions of those days after 9/11.

As I typed this my wife asked me why I was upset and I told her. She too started to cry as she recalled working at Saturday Night Live (she's a scenic artist) the night SNL resumed and they had Paul Simon singing "The Boxer" with Rudy as well as Ray Kelly standing along side on stage. Everybody on stage cried - stagehands, camermen, cast, audience, everybody in the studio.

I had been, up to this moment, ambivalent about the 10 year anniversary ceremonies. I chalked that up to a feeling that "I didn't really "know" anyone that died. Forgetting how difficult a time it was to be living in the NYC area (a feeling I'm certain was not determined by proximity) and always finding at every turn, something that connected you to those moments. 10 years later I still cry over those days. Not ashamed to admit it either.

Yes its a very weird feeling in NYC this weekend isn't it?

Yes its a very weird feeling in NYC this weekend isn't it?

Yes. Like everybody is holding their collective breathes. Very much wondering if all the security measures have been effective and hoping the other shoe doesn't fall,

On the other hand, I'm working an event on Sunday that has nothing to do with 9/11 memorials, go figure.

Those who make political comments in this thread only succeed showing bad judgment, demonstrating that at least one person who holds their position has bad judgment.

Those who made political comments in this thread would do well to remove them asap.

Before we get cariried away with "flying old glory," consider that as a result of the 9/11 attacks, the USA invaded, illegally and unprovoked, a sovereign nation, Iraq, killing over the next several years hundreds of thousands of peope who had nothing to do with 9/11 or the fanatics who planned and executed those attacks. That the 9/11 attacks were horrible, detestable, and downright evil is not in doubt. What is in doubt is all this "remembering" that we're supposed to be doing while ignoring our own culpability in our international policies. How many innocent people, to include women, children,and the elderly, has the USA killed in Iraq and Afghanistan under the pretext of "defending" freedom. While the people who died in the 9/11 attacks did not do anything to deserve their fate, neither did a far greater number of people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It appears to me that the media is turning this ten year anniversary (and what's so special about ten years as opposed to eight or nine?) into some kind of sentimental, patriotic circus. I'm sure the TV will be showing plenty of closeups of people with tears in their eyes. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do when I see this. The televised broadcasts of people who are truly emotionally upset to the point of tears seems to me a cheapening of that emotion, appealing to some voyeuristic impulse in those who watch. The media ought to exercise a little taste for a change, but as usual, emotions attract viewers, and that's what TV is all about.

A quiet, dignified ceremony honoring those who lost their lives on 9/11 might be more appropriate. It would certainly be in better taste.

The best thing that the USA can do to honor those killed on 9/11 is to uphold those values upon which our country is supposedly founded. Truth and justice for all are two that come immediately to mind. We have a lot of housekeeping to do right here at home with these two values, not to mention in the international arena. And perhaps we should demonstrate a true respect for those killed by not turning the anniversary into some national media event.

The true patriot is not the one who falls into line by accepting government propaganda as truth or who advocates the governments policies simply becuase they are the government's policies. The true patriot is the one who examines policies and actions with critical intelligence, approving or disapproving as the case demands.

I, too am saddened by what happened on 9/11, but there is nothing that I can do about something that has already happened. What I can do is live in such a way that contributes to the building of a world based on fairness, justice, kindness, and peaceful coexistence.

You are sad but you would do nothing? :rolleyes: I am also glad there weren't that many of you on December 7th. Writing Japanese is hard.:twitchy: If you don’t like what the people have decided to do to honor these heroes please don’t participate. Your participation would diminish the honor that is being paid to the heroes. Just my opinion but then I didn’t let people take my lunch money when I was in school either. :eek:

Nothing in the OP post had a thing to do with politics and the only way to make a used car salesman look good is to stand them next to a politician or a political fanatic. Opps, I hope you aren't a used car salesman.:lol:

Those who make political comments in this thread only succeed showing bad judgment, demonstrating that at least one person who holds their position has bad judgment.

Those who made political comments in this thread would do well to remove them asap.

I for one, am happy there are independent thinkers. To simply fall in line and unthinkingly support national leadership is a dangerous thing. You are all old enough to have learned that lesson. Great sentiment and tribute though Lenny.

Canada has declared 9/11 as a National Service Day which was at the request of families of those lost and in recognition of the support given ten years ago.

I for one, am happy there are independent thinkers. To simply fall in line and unthinkingly support national leadership is a dangerous thing. You are all old enough to have learned that lesson. Great sentiment and tribute though Lenny.

Canada has declared 9/11 as a National Service Day which was at the request of families of those lost and in recognition of the support given ten years ago.

I think you mistake your idea of independent thought as something that people have chosen the way we wish to respect our heroes view as important. You drove a wedge between yourself and the people that wanted to remember the service of these men and women and picked the flags as a method. You did it with malice no matter how you try and coat it. You are free to disagree with that method. That and a quarter tossed off of a bridge is the loss of a quarter. This was never intended to be a platform for any wing politics it was a show of support for sacrifice.

I think you mistake your idea of independent thought as something that people have chosen the way we wish to respect our heroes view as important. You drove a wedge between yourself and the people that wanted to remember the service of these men and women and picked the flags as a method. You did it with malice no matter how you try and coat it. You are free to disagree with that method. That and a quarter tossed off of a bridge is the loss of a quarter. This was never intended to be a platform for any wing politics it was a show of support for sacrifice.

I have no idea what you are trying to convey here and you have completely misread and misinterpreted jackb's post. Take the blinders off or put down the bong Bob.

Just to let you all know, it seems as though quite a few do not think this should be in 50+ and moved to P and R. But last time we moved anything the mods got a beating for it.

Darned if you do, darned if you don't....

So to put it gently, I'm thinking of moving this to keep fair on the board because P and R isn't really allowed in the other subforums. We don't want to get the others upset thinking it's not fair for them to do the same.

Just to let you all know, it seems as though quite a few do not think this should be in 50+ and moved to P and R. But last time we moved anything the mods got a beating for it.

Darned if you do, darned if you don't....

So to put it gently, I'm thinking of moving this to keep fair on the board because P and R isn't really allowed in the other subforums. We don't want to get the others upset thinking it's not fair for them to do the same.

That is one way to look at it. Another is that most respondents here probably are not approved for use of P and R excluding them from continued participation.

Just to let you all know, it seems as though quite a few do not think this should be in 50+ and moved to P and R. But last time we moved anything the mods got a beating for it.

Darned if you do, darned if you don't....

So to put it gently, I'm thinking of moving this to keep fair on the board because P and R isn't really allowed in the other subforums. We don't want to get the others upset thinking it's not fair for them to do the same.

As I pointed out upthread, P and R is allowed on Bike Forums, as long as it's the right, err, LEFT P and R*. The OP's 'failing' was posting something that praised Americans who gave their lives for their fellow man. No, make that just praised Americans. It became a political post because it differed from the standard thinking expected from a forum participant.

As far as enforcing rules against 'political' speech here or on other subforums, if it were equally enforced the moderators would spend all day moving posts around.

*Examples include the "Flyin' Ryan" threads in Touring in 2008 and a thread on an Ohio labor rally in Clydesdale/Athena this year. Oh, and an attack on The Weak Link last year here in 50+. I'm sure more are out there.

Neil, do me a favor and link them all in one post and I'll move them to P and R. That would help a lot. Thank you. I'll wait until the morning to check on this again, I have to wake up at 130am and should be getting ready for bed. :)

This did not start out as a political thread, and shame on those who made it so.
Cranky, thank you for the sentiments, and for posting.
We must never forget.

Neil, do me a favor and link them all in one post and I'll move them to P and R. That would help a lot. Thank you. I'll wait until the morning to check on this again, I have to wake up at 130am and should be getting ready for bed. :)

You are going to move dead threads? The threads in question are locked.

I plan to commemorate 9/11 tomorrow in my own way:
1) I have scheduled a panel discussion, "9/11 -- 10 years later," for my weekly discussion forum at church (encinitaschurch.com);
2) I know which bicycle I shall be riding -- the red, white, and blue Schwinn mountain bike I bought from a San Diego firefighter in 1993;
3) I am attending the La Jolla Symphony and Chorus community sing performance of Mozart's Requiem, part of the nationwide Rolling Requiem program.

I plan to commemorate 9/11 tomorrow in my own way:
1) I have scheduled a panel discussion, "9/11 -- 10 years later," for my weekly discussion forum at church (encinitaschurch.com);
2) I know which bicycle I shall be riding -- the red, white, and blue Schwinn mountain bike I bought from a San Diego firefighter in 1993;
3) I am attending the La Jolla Symphony and Chorus community sing performance of Mozart's Requiem, part of the nationwide Rolling Requiem program.
:thumb:

3) I am attending the La Jolla Symphony and Chorus community sing performance of Mozart's Requiem, part of the nationwide Rolling Requiem program.

Sussmayr edition, or one of the more recent completions?

This did not start out as a political thread, and shame on those who made it so.
Cranky, thank you for the sentiments, and for posting.
We must never forget.

The nice part of a free society is freedom of speech. Shame on those who would wish away those freedoms.

You are going to move dead threads? The threads in question are locked.

I thought they were bothering you...ya know, being all political and stuff. :p

The nice part of a free society is freedom of speech. Shame on those who would wish away those freedoms.

Is Bike Forums the public square? No one in this thread has 'wished' away anything, except perhaps the moderators. And since Bike Forums is privately owned, they have the right. You are making the common mistake of confusing the right to speak with the right to be unchallenged.

BTW, it's amusing to see the Canadian flag on a post discussing "freedom of speech." Here's what a member of the Canadian Human Rights Commission said: "Freedom of speech is an American concept, so I don't give it any value. It's not my job to give value to an American concept." Ban any Dire Straits songs this month? Arrest any comics for heckling a lesbian couple during his act? Try to fine your leading news magazine for running an article criticizing Muslims?

I thought they were bothering you...ya know, being all political and stuff. :p

No, I accept who I'm with and that they act a certain way. I just enjoy pointing out the obvious. I know I can leave like Metric Man and The Weak Link did.

Is Bike Forums the public square? No one in this thread has 'wished' away anything, except perhaps the moderators. And since Bike Forums is privately owned, they have the right. You are making the common mistake of confusing the right to speak with the right to be unchallenged.

BTW, it's amusing to see the Canadian flag on a post discussing "freedom of speech." Here's what a member of the Canadian Human Rights Commission said: "Freedom of speech is an American concept, so I don't give it any value. It's not my job to give value to an American concept." Ban any Dire Straits songs this month? Arrest any comics for heckling a lesbian couple during his act? Try to fine your leading news magazine for running an article criticizing Muslims?

We have constitutional law that affords us the rights to the following:

"Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication."

The term, "Freedom of speech" is American. I referred to it as that to keep some commonality in the discussion. Much like converting speeds and distance to miles from my metric standards.

I laugh at the double standards here. It is ok to wave the stars and stripes but no other flags. If you have a problem with the flag, you can bite me, it stays.

This did not start out as a political thread, and shame on those who made it so.
Cranky, thank you for the sentiments, and for posting.
We must never forget.

Actually, this thread did start out as political. Posting pics of dozens of American flags flying and declaring that one will be flying "old Glory" strikes me as quite political. I can think of no symbol more political than a national flag. The firefighters and other rescue personnel did not risk and lose their lives because they were Americans, but because they were firefighters and rescue workers. There is no need to politicize their sacrifice. They were decent human beings trying to help other human beings.

We have constitutional law that affords us the rights to the following:

"Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication."

The term, "Freedom of speech" is American. I referred to it as that to keep some commonality in the discussion. Much like converting speeds and distance to miles from my metric standards.

I laugh at the double standards here. It is ok to wave the stars and stripes but no other flags. If you have a problem with the flag, you can bite me, it stays.

Sigh. Where did I write I had a "problem" with the Canadian flag? I merely pointed out the inconsistency between your 'thought' and the statement of a Canadian official. And the practices in what Canadian author Mark Steyn has called "the demented Dominion."

Meanwhile we wait your explanation of how someone saying your speech is shameful is the same as wishing you had no right to speak. Even if Mr. Burkhardt had wished you didn't speak, that's not the same as wishing you had no right to speak. Or is that more Canadian 'thinking?'

You are surprised someone has an opinion that differs from an official? Really?

Generally speaking, if someone wishes shame on another for supporting an opinion, he is wishing to silence them. Show me (outside of the following)anything I said that can be interpreted as shameful.

I am done with 9/11, just like I am done with Vimy Ridge where I lost relatives and equally Pearl Harbor. I am done with the Titanic and bombing of Hiroshima. I don't forget, I have expressed my condolences and have moved on. No amount of media or political sensationalism will bring those lives back. jackb's post was spot on. It is time to reflect on what has caused this attack, get the hell out of wars and occupations you don't belong in and start looking to mend fences on the international level. We all make our beds.

Actually, this thread did start out as political. Posting pics of dozens of American flags flying and declaring that one will be flying "old Glory" strikes me as quite political. I can think of no symbol more political than a national flag. The firefighters and other rescue personnel did not risk and lose their lives because they were Americans, but because they were firefighters and rescue workers. There is no need to politicize their sacrifice. They were decent human beings trying to help other human beings.

Toss the fertilizer flag. :p

Those Jets airplanes flew into the twin towers in New York. Last time I checked that wasn’t a Canadian city jdon and they flew one of our flags at the site after we had those heroes, US citizens by the way, working in one of our cities. If we wanted to play I am proud to be an American and blast it loud that is both our right and not of the concern of anyone living outside of our borders. We will also fly the flag during the fourth of July in celebration of a war some north of the border didn’t decide to fight. If someone outside of our country doesn’t want to see out flag flown in our country they can simply look away. We don’t need your permission nor your advice on how to celebrate or memorialize a tragic event that took the lives of many of our fellow US citizens because we wouldn’t tell you how to celebrate any of you events like Boxing Day, or some Queens Birthday or whatever you have. So without a dog in the fight you don’t have a voice in the way we decide to celebrate and your opinion in this matter is pure steaming Bandini. We will even put a flag on the coffin of one of our fallen heroes and aren’t concerned if people from other countries don’t like that either, eh!:D As far as someone from Montana complaining about it they don't have to participate. But I would imagine they see an American flag every time the pass a police station, School, fire station or military base. Get used to it.

Toss the fertilizer flag. :p

Those Jets airplanes flew into the twin towers in New York. Last time I checked that wasn’t a Canadian city and they flew one of our flags at the site after we had those heroes, US citizens by the way, working in one of our cities. If we wanted to play I am proud to be an American and blast it loud that is both our right and not of the concern of anyone living outside of our borders. We will also fly the flag during the fourth of July in celebration of a war some north of the border didn’t decide to fight. If someone outside of our country doesn’t want to see out flag flown in our country they can simply look away. We don’t need your permission nor your advice on how to celebrate or memorialize a tragic event that took the lives of many of our fellow US citizens because we wouldn’t tell you how to celebrate any of you events like Boxing Day, or some Queens Birthday or whatever you have. So without a dog in the fight you don’t have a voice in the way we decide to celebrate and your opinion in this matter is pure steaming Bandini. We will even put a flag on the coffin of one of our fallen heroes and aren’t concerned if people from other countries don’t like that either, eh!:D

You used the word celebrate 4 times in your ridiculous post. Would you prefer I said Happy 911? The planes flew into the "World Trade Center". The hijacked aircraft had multiple nationalities onboard. The attack was on US soil, but many other nations were affected. My gripe is not in that an event is observed, but the media circus and political posturing surrounding a tragic event. Celebrate if you must.

You used the word celebrate 4 times in your rediculous post. Would you prefer I said Happy 911? The planes flew into the "World Trade Center". The hijacked aircraft had multiple nationalities onboard. The attack was on US soil, but many other nations were affected. My gripe is not in that an event is observed, but the media circus and political posturing surrounding a tragic event. Celebrate if you must.

When they stuff a plane into one or two of your buildings I will care one whit about your concern. Showing our flag is what we do here to honor our fallen hereos. The world trade center was on our soil and if we want to dance or cry it is none of your concern on what or how we do it. If you want to morn by reading the Red book that is fine with me. Just don't try and tell us our form of a mamorial is offensive to you, because we don't care if we offend anyone with how we honor "our" dead. I don't care if you dance on your dead so don't presume to tell us how to honor ours. Just wait till you see the flags tomorrow. And each and every one will be a reminder we don't forget. Seal Team 6 should have punctuated that. The last guy that thought we forgot is fish food.:lol:

When they stuff a plane into one or two of your buildings I will care one whit about your concern. Showing our flag is what we do here to honor our fallen hereos. The world trade center was on our soil and if we want to dance or cry it is none of your concern on what or how we do it. If you want to morn by reading the Red book that is fine with me. Just don't try and tell us our form of a mamorial is offensive to you, because we don't care if we offend anyone with how we honor "our" dead. I don't care if you dance on your dead so don't presume to tell us how to honor ours. Just wait till you see the flags tomorrow. And each and every one will be a reminder we don't forget. Seal Team 6 should have punctuated that. The last guy that thought we forgot is fish food.:lol:

You are a swell guy Bob. :rolleyes:

Show me. Go back through my posts and show me where I said you should not honor the dead with flags. I have no problem with that at all.