Mountain Biking - Holy Smokes - almost semi but not quite good news from shimano

Ok long title. But as most know (and agree) rapid rise and flippy shifter suck in general for freeriding and dh (especially on anything shore like) Shimano has come up with a solution. They offer saint with generic standalone brake lever bodies and generic non labelled RR (damn them) shifters. Like I said, this is almost kinda but not quite good news.

http://www.nsmb.com/gear/shimanocamp_11_04.php

The article is there. From the perspective of both a shore rider and xc guy.

For the lazy, here is the paragraph I am focussing on



Dual Control and Freeride
Another obvious difference is the level of technical difficulty on the trails on the Shore and in B.C. in general. The easiest trail on Fromme is vastly more difficult in every way than anything found at Fantasy Island. In fact you could probably ride brakeless if you were careful there but on the Shore losing either brake means the end of your ride. Which leads me to my next point; Dual Control and Freeride is not a match made in heaven. I had a good look at the bikes at Rampage and not a single rider - Shimano sponsored or not - was using Dual Control. When the speeds are high, the trails steep, the drops big or the logs skinny your brakes are everything. In those situations it makes absolutely no sense to have your brake levers doing double duty. You want them solidly mounted and moving along only one plane. When riding anything steep I find my fingers slipping off dual control and my fingers shift the levers after even a small drop. To their credit Shimano has added stand alone brake levers for Saint this year and they are also offering generic Rapid Fire shifters in either black or silver to match any of their groups.

Well at the current point in time, i dont need shimano. My XT (02) runs ok, my XT brakes are a marvel (outdo MonoM4 etc...), but if i need something to change if broken...then SRAM/Hayes for me (or hope if they prove reliable).

nice quote mael...

Very interesting idea... kind make you wonder why no one did it before. At the same time I keep thinking man I don't want that for when I land or when I do this or that... But it is something neat to try when my LBS gets them.

Thanks mael for the article.

To try what, the flippy shifters?

What are the flippy shifters? Some kind of road bike style brake/shifter combo? I haven't used them.

Yeah.. why not?

Just wondering. They have actually been around for a while now. LX, XT and XTR offer them.

Notfred, yes they are a combo brake/shifter.

are they really unpopular or something? I never saw those in any of my local shops.

XC guys love them....

freeriders hate them. For many reasons.

Just wondering. They have actually been around for a while now. LX, XT and XTR offer them.

Notfred, yes they are a combo brake/shifter.

Never bought...avoid like plague. Combo housings ?? one part busts -replace whole unit?, naw.

Plus I only run one der shifter.

Hey..both are Shimano ..say 2000+..rapid F, and seperate? It's not a new thing...?

Not a new thing, but they have moved sideways again. Instead of forcing the flippy shifters they are offering after market alternatives.

Althoguh it is still RR.

Bike bike blew up a sec ago..massive "BANG"..the r-wheel won't move free.

WHAAAAAA!!!!???????

Loudest noise I heard other than it falling over ....

I think my Mavic rim just exploded.

Yep, it caved to the wrong dish. I got an S. SSSSeveral, I think it might have pulled a spoke out.

Umm...are you feeling alright :)

Spoke failed..loud! ..bikes been sitting hours..neat-o...not, but a first for me.

The rim is warped, that spoke was holding the dish tooo much I guess...

Sorry about the hijack...my bike just went KA-BANG!

DT Swiss, cranked up. (....more wheel repair..uuungg..)

XC guys love them....

freeriders hate them. For many reasons.
Not all XC guys love them......

True true. I would think roadie converts would love it :)

Ok, I read the article, and the one thing that seems nice about rapid rise is that you'd finally end up with shifters where the same button on both shifters did the same thing: increase cable tension and the gear gets higher, decrease cable tension and the gear gets lower. It does sound like a decent concept, just backwards to everyone who's used to the current method.

Not all roadie converts love them :P

Ok, I read the article, and the one thing that seems nice about rapid rise is that you'd finally end up with shifters where the same button on both shifters did the same thing: increase cable tension and the gear gets higher, decrease cable tension and the gear gets lower. It does sound like a decent concept, just backwards to everyone who's used to the current method.

I've got a set of XTR shifters that do exactly that on my F700. When I got them(several years ago), they were marketed as "racing" shifters--RR without an gear indicator. My SuperV's got XTR, too, but they're the opposite. Sucks when I switch bikes after riding one or the other for a while....

Not all XC guys love them......

Ditto on that. I tried out a bike with them and hated it. It might be because I'm not that used to it but I was not confident in either shifting or braking with them. Throw in that blasted RapidRise and things got confusing as hell. As it is, even though I have STI dual-control levers on my roadbike, I'm actually more comfortable with Campy Ergos.

Ok, I read the article, and the one thing that seems nice about rapid rise is that you'd finally end up with shifters where the same button on both shifters did the same thing: increase cable tension and the gear gets higher, decrease cable tension and the gear gets lower. It does sound like a decent concept, just backwards to everyone who's used to the current method.

The problem is for us regular cyclists who would rather grab a handful of gears at a time and not just one cog, RapidRise does the exact opposite of what we need when that surprise hill comes up and you need to really downshift.

I am not surprised that the Dual Control RR system does not work for free riders. But the problem is Dual Control, not rapid rise. Rapid rise makes sense and the only people who argue against it are those who have to re-learn what has become instinctive shifting - I cannot blame them.

But if you are willing to re-learn or are new to mountain biking, having both shifters "move the same way" (i.e. shifting to a slow gear is the normal position of the gear) is definitely more intuitive. Not to mention that down-shifts are more "critical" in biking, so why not let the mechanics of the gear system take care of them - rather than the experience of the biker.

As for dual control, I love it. With hydraulic breaks, I only use a finger to break and, so far, I have never shifted unwillingly - even in very rough terrain. But what is rather unnerving with dual control is the fact that the system feels less than 100% solid. The slight rattle and the movement in 2 planes is definitely something you need to accept.

Bravo Shimano for understanding the different needs of free riders.

The problem is for us regular cyclists who would rather grab a handful of gears at a time and not just one cog, RapidRise does the exact opposite of what we need when that surprise hill comes up and you need to really downshift.

I dunno, I like RR cuz it makes it much easier for me to shift for more speed DH. When I get surprised by a hill, I have no trouble shifting for it. Sure, it might be little harder to downshift, but(so far) my components have been able to handle the torque. That's why I dropped $$ on XTR back in the day...so's I could have some confidence in my equipment.

More on-topic, I don't think I'd like Dual Control at all. Don't know that I could get past controlling 2 functions with one component. Plus, I like for my levers to feel solid, esp. since the Avids I upgraded from were so sloppy.


P.S. Not bashing Avid per se, just wasn't happy with their products back then(8-9 yrs ago). Haven't tried any of their new stuff.

I am a roadie. just to get that out there.

but the other day, I was riding along, and I went to downshift at the bottom of this big hill, and I heard "BANG!" and suddenly, instead of it getting easier to pedal, it got very hard. I thought, damn, the cable slipped in the pinch bolt again. I flip the bike over, and loosen the pinch bolt on the rear derailleur, and pull on the cable to get a bit of tension. the cable keeps coming. and coming. The cable had broken INSIDE the shifter. here I was, 45 miles into a 70 mile ride, with a 2 speed bike. I used my handy mechanical skills to lock the rear derailleur into the third-smallest cog, and rode the 25 miles home.

bottom line, with rapid rise, I would've been in my smallest gear, and getting up the rather large north-raleigh hills would've been cake, just like it normally is. instead, I had to hammer on EVERY hill, becuase I was in a rather large gear.

I think that for mountain bikers, who regularly see grades in the 20%, would rather have the rapid rise in the event of a shifter or cable failure.

as for the dual control, I think they should have done something more like what campy has for their ergos, that thats have the brake levers move in one direction, then have a shift lever behind the main brake lever that moves in both directions. then, have a thumb shifter to shift in the other direction.

I dont get it! The brake level, when pulled, automatically down shifts for you?????

Pull up it shifts, push down it shifts. Pull in it stops.

I think that for mountain bikers, who regularly see grades in the 20%, would rather have the rapid rise in the event of a shifter or cable failure.

Most MTBers I know would not trust having the derailleur just maintain position by force of the spring alone in the event of a cable or shifter failure. Then again, Some MTBers I know also carry extra cables. Hell, some used to carry thumbshifters too in case their RapidFires broke down. At anyrate, the BCP for this type of situation is to kill a few links and turn the bike into a single-speed then use a ziptie (which all MTBers carry ;)) to lash up the rear derailleur. I have also heard about people messing with the limit screws to lock it into a reasonable gear and thus allow them to turn the bike into a 3x1 or 2x1 by shifting the front only.



as for the dual control, I think they should have done something more like what campy has for their ergos, that thats have the brake levers move in one direction, then have a shift lever behind the main brake lever that moves in both directions. then, have a thumb shifter to shift in the other direction.

I think you just described RapidFire trigger shifters with conventional brake levers. ;)

I dunno, I like RR cuz it makes it much easier for me to shift for more speed DH. When I get surprised by a hill, I have no trouble shifting for it. Sure, it might be little harder to downshift, but(so far) my components have been able to handle the torque.

It's not the torque per se. It's the ability to downshift multiple gears with a single throw that for me makes low-normal less desirable than the conventional high-normal rear derailleur. And then there's also "gate-lag" that occurs with low-normal derailleurs since you can't force the downshift, but I'm not sure that's that big a deal although I can see it being really annoying. I guess if Shimano shifters operated the same way as say Campy road shifters or SRAM twist-shifters (which I don't like but that's a different story) or... thumbshifters ;), then my argument would go away. With those systems shifting multiple gears in a single throw in either direction is possible.