Tandem Cycling - My stoker likes the new Topolino wheels

We pulled the trigger on a set of Topolino wheels last week, they arrived on Monday and i mounted the tires and installed them on the bike that evening.

The total weight of the new wheels with rim tape installed (that is the way I received them) is 698 grams front and 900 grams rear. Total weight with tires, tubes, cassette, computer magnets and quick release skewers is 2567 grams. The Bontragers weighed 3333 grams similarly equipped. I bought the wheels from Mel at Tandems East. They are the new True Black ATR 3.0 tandem wheels.

The bike now weighs 28.08 pounds with two computers and a heart rate monitor installed.

We took it for a 33 mile ride this morning and at about the 4 mile mark I asked my stoker (wife, Chris) if she noticed any difference in the bike. She said that she was getting ready to say something, she said that if felt lighter. We both agreed that the bike feels, lighter, livelier, SMOOTHER, more comfortable and more responsive. It was very comfortable to begin with. (the bike is a 2010 Calfee Tetra).

It climbs even better, there is a steep little hill just after a river bridge that we went up faster than we have ever gone.

So bottom line we like the wheels a whole lot!

Wayne

It climbs even better, there is a steep little hill just after a river bridge that we went up faster than we have ever gone.

Please post another report again in a month or so when the "new bike/part effect" has worn off. :thumb:

Please post another report again in a month or so when the "new bike/part effect" has worn off. :thumb:

Absolutely!

The part that is remarkable is that she totally noticed that there was something different. Something that she liked.

An old motorcycle expression is that if momma is happy then everybody is happy. So appropriate in the tandem world!

Wayne

The bike now weighs 28.08 pounds with two computers and a heart rate monitor installed.


Wow, that's about what a basic road bike weighed back in the 80's... impressive!

Wow, that's about what a basic road bike weighed back in the 80's... impressive!

I removed the two computers, the HRM and cut the seat posts off (I ordered the 330mm length not knowing how long they would need to be so they are now more the standard length). With those items removed the weight is now 27.65 pounds.

I was eyeing a set until I realized there's no way they'd work with disc brakes. Bummer.

I was eyeing a set until I realized there's no way they'd work with disc brakes. Bummer.

... which is why you always want to have two-sets of wheels when you decide to add some go-fast wheels to your stable. One set that are do-everything well and then the "wild card" set that scratch the itch for whatever needs scratching.

... which is why you always want to have two-sets of wheels when you decide to add some go-fast wheels to your stable. One set that are do-everything well and then the "wild card" set that scratch the itch for whatever needs scratching.

+1 on two sets of wheels.

We were unable to ride our tandem for 3-weeks after we found stress fractures in our Rolf Prima Tandem wheels. We had Mel at Tandem's East build us up a nice set of wheels for our everyday riding. The Rolf's were repaired under warranty and are now our "go-fast" wheels. Hopefully we will not have any more down time due to wheel issues.

... which is why you always want to have two-sets of wheels when you decide to add some go-fast wheels to your stable. One set that are do-everything well and then the "wild card" set that scratch the itch for whatever needs scratching.

We have two back-up sets of wheels, they just happen to be attached to a pair of singles.

Works for us.

... which is why you always want to have two-sets of wheels when you decide to add some go-fast wheels to your stable. One set that are do-everything well and then the "wild card" set that scratch the itch for whatever needs scratching.

As soon as I realized my single bike wheels couldn't fill in, I had an itch for a "spare pair". So, we have a set of Spinergy wheels on order that will either be our main wheel or our spares...time will tell.

A while back we were in the spare wheels camp. We have now moved up to the spare tandem.

Wayne

Have a pair of Topolinos on my single bike since they first hit the market and now have over 12,000 miles on them.
So far never had to true them.
Amazing set of wheels. Great American technology!

I just wore out the bearings on my Topolinos. I guess after 35-40k miles of dual duty on the single (mostly) and tandem that's not too bad.

Please post another report again in a month or so when the "new bike/part effect" has worn off. :thumb:


Here is the one month report. The new bike part has not worn off. We both still really like the way the wheels ride and roll. Our average speed is up a little and we have had some of our faster rides on the new wheels. The wheels now have 535 miles on them and are straight and true, no issues what so ever.

Wayne

Keep us updated.

Wayne

Coming up on 4 months, still liking them? We are considering them due to their light weight primarily for climbing. :)

Coming up on 4 months, still liking them? We are considering them due to their light weight primarily for climbing. :)

We are completely happy with the Topolino wheels, we have right at 1,000 miles on them and they are straight and true. Not only are they light but they are EXTREMELY comfortable. Once you install them I am confident that they will be your first choice for wheels.

We bought ours from Mel at Tandems East and they are the new True Black wheels.

Wayne

Here is the one month report. The new bike part has not worn off. We both still really like the way the wheels ride and roll. Our average speed is up a little and we have had some of our faster rides on the new wheels. The wheels now have 535 miles on them and are straight and true, no issues what so ever.

Wayne

Shortly after we received our new titanium travel tandem we did a head-to-head comparison with our old 43-lb steel 1980s tandem, just to satisfy curiosity...and to be honest, to see if we had purchased any greater vertical speed as a happy by-product. With S&S couplers the new bike is about 7 lb lighter, conventional spoked wheels on both. On our local hill-climb that we know well because we have to climb it to get home, the old steel bike was 15 seconds faster (by stopwatch) over 20 min or so of normal effort than the new one. (But harsher and more cramped for the stoker.)

So those must be some wheels! :rolleyes:

"In God we trust." Everyone else show us your data.

... the old steel bike was 15 seconds faster (by stopwatch) over 20 min or so of normal effort than the new one...

I would say that there are some other variables you are not taking into consideration. Maybe you are both just used to the old bike or you were feeling a little worse on the day you rode the new bike. Realistically, all things being equal except the 7lbs, the heavier bike will not climb as fast as the lighter bike at the same wattage. That's simple physics. Where people get all messed up with weight is that they think it will make a huge difference. lighter weight will make the bike feel lighter and more lively but in reality we're talking a handful of seconds over a 5km climb. As an example: a 5 kilometer, 7.5% climb. Assume the rider can kick out 250 watts. A 160 pound rider will take 19 minutes and 21 seconds to get up the hill. Every 5 pounds added make the trip up the hill take around 30 seconds longer.

Here is a link if you want to do some playing around on your own. Lots of great stuff on there.
http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesLessWeight_Page.html

The question you have to ask yourself is does that matter to you? If you race it certainly does. Maybe you just race to the hilltop with your buddies? Maybe you just like the feel of the livelier wheels. If you can afford it does it really matter what anyone else thinks?

I believe that one of the reasons that we are a little bit faster on the new wheels is that on the roads we ride we are more comfortable, the new wheels really absorb the shocks much better. We ride county and township roads in central Illinois that are a little bit rough in places. The smoother ride lets us ride a little faster. If you have ever ridden off-road either bicycle or motorcycle on a poorly suspended bike and then one with good suspension you know what I mean. You can usually go faster on the better suspended bike.

Wayne

... which is why you always want to have two-sets of wheels when you decide to add some go-fast wheels to your stable. One set that are do-everything well and then the "wild card" set that scratch the itch for whatever needs scratching.

We have a Cannondale with disc brakes that we use for touruing and general road riding. I was wondering how much hassle it would be take to switch the disc brakes out and back. In other words, two sets of wheels and changing out the corresponding brakes too?

I would say that there are some other variables you are not taking into consideration. ... Where people get all messed up with weight is that they think it will make a huge difference. lighter weight will make the bike feel lighter and more lively but in reality we're talking a handful of seconds over a 5km climb. ...

Of course you are right. The heavier bike (or heavier wheels) cannot possibly climb faster for the same power applied to the rubber contact patch. It is precisely those "other variables" you mention that undoubtedly swamped the impact of the reduced weight in our "N of 1" trial, (and happened by chance to favour the old bike on that one run.) That was really my point. (I didn't want to elaborate the first time so as not to hijack the thread.) If we did an infinite number of trials now that we've had both bikes long enough to get used to both of them, with proper control of all those other variables, the average difference in climbing time I'm sure would approach the theoretical value predicted by t = mgh/P, plus or minus some mysterious "transmission efficiency fudge factor" that we always invoke to explain why tandems climb slower. :p

We were pleased to verify that Newton was right: taking 7 pounds off a combined crew-and-vehicle weight of 300 lb or so did not make us lighter than air: as always, it's the engines, not the bike.

OP, good point about the "sprungness" you feel in your Topolinos. Anything that reduces road-whack to the stoker especially has got to make you faster over the long haul. The poor souls can really suffer for the team back there.

We are completely happy with the Topolino wheels, we have right at 1,000 miles on them and they are straight and true. Not only are they light but they are EXTREMELY comfortable. Once you install them I am confident that they will be your first choice for wheels.

We bought ours from Mel at Tandems East and they are the new True Black wheels.

Wayne


I thought the True Blacks were not tandem rated and only a 130mm spacing wheel, are they available in 145mm tandem spacing? Do you have a pic you can post of them?

I thought the True Blacks were not tandem rated and only a 130mm spacing wheel, are they available in 145mm tandem spacing? Do you have a pic you can post of them?


They are tandem specific, 145mm rear spacing and they are the True Black ATR 3.0, http://www.topolinotech.com/products/TopolinoSpecs.pdf

You can see them here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/785605-Pictures-of-our-Calfee-with-the-new-Ultegra-Cranks.

Wayne

Excellent! We're in the final stages of specing and ordering either a Calfee or Peketa tandem and was trying to decide on wheels. Neither bike would have any gold or yellow on them (it most likely will be a black frame) so I preferred black only for spokes and wheel. Aside from color are there any other diferences in the two wheels? I didn't see anything in on specifications page.

Excellent! We're in the final stages of specing and ordering either a Calfee or Peketa tandem and was trying to decide on wheels. Neither bike would have any gold or yellow on them (it most likely will be a black frame) so I preferred black only for spokes and wheel. Aside from color are there any other diferences in the two wheels? I didn't see anything in on specifications page.


I would suggest a call to Topolino, they will be able to explain the difference. The True Black are the newer design.

I would suggest a call to Topolino, they will be able to explain the difference. The True Black are the newer design.

As near as I can tell, the differences are (1) the black color, (2) 10 gm weight savings, and (3) your wallet is $120 lighter.

Be still my heart.

Of course you are right. The heavier bike (or heavier wheels) cannot possibly climb faster for the same power applied to the rubber contact patch. It is precisely those "other variables" you mention that undoubtedly swamped the impact of the reduced weight in our "N of 1" trial, (and happened by chance to favour the old bike on that one run.) That was really my point. (I didn't want to elaborate the first time so as not to hijack the thread.) If we did an infinite number of trials now that we've had both bikes long enough to get used to both of them, with proper control of all those other variables, the average difference in climbing time I'm sure would approach the theoretical value predicted by t = mgh/P, plus or minus some mysterious "transmission efficiency fudge factor" that we always invoke to explain why tandems climb slower. :p

We were pleased to verify that Newton was right: taking 7 pounds off a combined crew-and-vehicle weight of 300 lb or so did not make us lighter than air: as always, it's the engines, not the bike.

OP, good point about the "sprungness" you feel in your Topolinos. Anything that reduces road-whack to the stoker especially has got to make you faster over the long haul. The poor souls can really suffer for the team back there.


We as cyclists and humans tend to attach ourselves to objectively measured criteria like weight and not adequately consider the "other factors" that may be present. Often these other factors for one reason or another are not easily measured. Decades ago the brightest minds in cycling were drilling out chain rings to save weight and not considering areodymanics at all. Now we still like the clean measurable weight but also try to measure areo effects. Just because a factor is not easily quantified and measured does not mean it fails to effect speed.

You have measured data on a climb and the old steel bike is faster. Why should we assume that the new bike will eventually exceed it in speed by the easily calculated effect of less weight when the bikes are different in so many ways? Is the fit position the same? Do the frames flex the same? Are the tires the same and run at the same pressure? Are the crank lengths the same? It is interesting that any placebo effect would tend to make the new bike faster and you still managed to go faster with the old bike.

There are a lot of possible factors and weight is only one. Give it some time and retest after you get used to the new bike. Maybe with some thought and logic you can find a factor that is helping the old bike, like crank length, that is transferable to the new bike.

In the mean time I would enjoy the new bike and hang on to that old bike. If it works for you then it works.

Wayne

.... your wallet is $120 lighter.

Be still my heart.

It's the American way. I lightened my wallet by buying a new, lighter, CF single. Since I'm 200 lbs I can't notice the weight difference (4-5 lbs) climbing except when I'm standing. Seems the lighter bike takes less out of me when I'm working the bike side-to-side. I'm pleased I've discovered this rationale which will justify a CF tandem purchase when I retire:)

As near as I can tell, the differences are (1) the black color, (2) 10 gm weight savings, and (3) your wallet is $120 lighter.

Be still my heart.

This is the EXACT reason I suggested calling Topolino. The composition of the Black spoke is different from the black/yellow spoke. Mel at Tandems East sold the wheels to me at a price that was very fair.

In making my wheel selection I called the wheel manufacturer and asked them why I should buy their wheels. The tech guy at Topolono provided me with outstanding product knowledge and convinced me to buy their wheels. I absolutely do not regret the purchase and at this time we are completely happy with the decision.

It's the American way. I lightened my wallet by buying a new, lighter, CF single. Since I'm 200 lbs I can't notice the weight difference (4-5 lbs) climbing except when I'm standing. Seems the lighter bike takes less out of me when I'm working the bike side-to-side. I'm pleased I've discovered this rationale which will justify a CF tandem purchase when I retire:)

I'm all for saving weight, but the Topolinos are an expensive way to do it. At a $12/gm, you would need to invest $27,000 to achieve the 5 pound weight saving you got on your new bike.

That said, there may be other differences with these wheels, and so long a DubT is happy with his choice more power to him.

I'm all for saving weight, but the Topolinos are an expensive way to do it. At a $12/gm, you would need to invest $27,000 to achieve the 5 pound weight saving you got on your new bike.

That said, there may be other differences with these wheels, and so long a DubT is happy with his choice more power to him.

Good point. $12 a gram makes dual crank power meters look more attractive.

Wayne

I'm all for saving weight, but the Topolinos are an expensive way to do it. At a $12/gm, you would need to invest $27,000 to achieve the 5 pound weight saving you got on your new bike.

That said, there may be other differences with these wheels, and so long a DubT is happy with his choice more power to him.

Please tell me how you arrived at your number. I just looked at the Tandem East website and he has tandem wheels listed at $450, $699, $899, $999 and $1250 for the Topolino's.

The weight savings is very nice but the ride quality is absolutely incredible, when my stoker tells me in the first 2 miles after installing the new wheels (we had Bontragers) that the ride is much better and she likes the ride then for me it is money well spent. There is no dollar value thay I can put on keeping her happy. Back in our motorcycle riding days there was a saying that went something like this, if momma is happy then everybody is happy. She is happy so I am totally thrilled!

Please tell me how you arrived at your number.

I used the products specification sheet you linked to above and looked at the differences between the tandem versions of the CarbonCore AX3.0 and TrueBlack ATR3.0.

Please tell me how you arrived at your number. I just looked at the Tandem East website and he has tandem wheels listed at $450, $699, $899, $999 and $1250 for the Topolino's.

The weight savings is very nice but the ride quality is absolutely incredible, when my stoker tells me in the first 2 miles after installing the new wheels (we had Bontragers) that the ride is much better and she likes the ride then for me it is money well spent. There is no dollar value thay I can put on keeping her happy. Back in our motorcycle riding days there was a saying that went something like this, if momma is happy then everybody is happy. She is happy so I am totally thrilled!


I certainly agree a happy and motivated stoker is priceless!

I wonder though - are you saying that the wheels actually provide a noticeable suspension? How much suspension travel do you believe there is due to the wheel compressing?

I know that some wheels are more flexible than others but shouldn't the difference in two high grade wheels be lost in the noise compared to the inflated tires. That is what inflatable tires were invented for after all.

Wayne

I used the products specification sheet you linked to above and looked at the differences between the tandem versions of the CarbonCore AX3.0 and TrueBlack ATR3.0.


When I bought the wheels from Tandems East the price for the Carbon Core and the True Black were the same, so for my situation your equation does not apply.

Wayne

I certainly agree a happy and motivated stoker is priceless!

I wonder though - are you saying that the wheels actually provide a noticeable suspension? How much suspension travel do you believe there is due to the wheel compressing?

I know that some wheels are more flexible than others but shouldn't the difference in two high grade wheels be lost in the noise compared to the inflated tires. That is what inflatable tires were invented for after all.

Wayne

Wayne, I have no idea how the wheels do what they do, all I know is that there is a NOTICEABLE ride improvement with the Topolino wheels and they are not spongy, the wheels feel solid when cornering and when we push the bike hard. The TandemGeek made this same comment in his Calfee build journal when he was testing various wheels.

Wayne in Illinois

Wayne, you'd have to ride them. With Topolinos what you are really getting (besides a lighter wheel) is premium ride quality. I suppose it's the carbon/kevlar-through-the-axle spokes that provide the superior ride. I don't really know but that's really where they are different from other wheels. I've ridden/raced lots of high end wheels across the US four times and haven't come across another wheelset that exceeds the ride quality of the Topolinos. They really are premium wheels.

Wayne, you'd have to ride them. With Topolinos what you are really getting (besides a lighter wheel) is premium ride quality. I suppose it's the carbon/kevlar-through-the-axle spokes that provide the superior ride. I don't really know but that's really where they are different from other wheels. I've ridden/raced lots of high end wheels across the US four times and haven't come across another wheelset that exceeds the ride quality of the Topolinos. They really are premium wheels.

I believe in real world testing over theory so I'll have to give them a try sometime. Theory is fun though so if anyone finds an explanation for the magic carper ride let me know.

Wayne

I believe in real world testing over theory so I'll have to give them a try sometime. Theory is fun though so if anyone finds an explanation for the magic carper ride let me know.

Wayne

Wayne there are probably several factors involved but, my perception is that there are 2 features that enhance the ride, 1. The fact that carbon fiber spokes provide better dampening than steel spokes, see the Topolino website. 2. The unique way that Topolino uses one piece spokes that wrap around the hub, they attach to the rim, wrap around the hub and then reattach to the rim, again see their website.

I don't know for sure exactly what causes the improved ride quality but the proof is in the pudding, test a pair on your bike, I am confident that you will be able to feel a significant improvement in the ride.

Wayne in Illinois

We pulled the trigger on a set of Topolino wheels last week, they arrived on Monday and i mounted the tires and installed them on the bike that evening.

The total weight of the new wheels with rim tape installed (that is the way I received them) is 698 grams front and 900 grams rear. Total weight with tires, tubes, cassette, computer magnets and quick release skewers is 2567 grams. The Bontragers weighed 3333 grams similarly equipped. I bought the wheels from Mel at Tandems East. They are the new True Black ATR 3.0 tandem wheels.

The bike now weighs 28.08 pounds with two computers and a heart rate monitor installed.

We took it for a 33 mile ride this morning and at about the 4 mile mark I asked my stoker (wife, Chris) if she noticed any difference in the bike. She said that she was getting ready to say something, she said that if felt lighter. We both agreed that the bike feels, lighter, livelier, SMOOTHER, more comfortable and more responsive. It was very comfortable to begin with. (the bike is a 2010 Calfee Tetra).

It climbs even better, there is a steep little hill just after a river bridge that we went up faster than we have ever gone.

So bottom line we like the wheels a whole lot!

Wayne

We just bought a CoMo Macchiato with Topolinos and my stoker had the same reaction after riding a few yards! I don't yet know if it's the change from Primera/Bontrager/Conti 4000 23s to Macchiato/Topo/Gatorkin 25s, but there is an appreciable difference in ride and we still love it after only two weeks and about 150 miles.

Primera/Bontrager/Conti 4000 23s to Macchiato/Topo/Gatorkin 25s...
Put the 23's on the Topolinos and see how they ride!

We compared the Topolinos to our Bontragers using the exact same tires, same pressure, same bike over the same course. We were specifically looking for relief from the hits at the expansion cracks. There was no significant ride difference between the wheels.

Real world testing with no difference in the pudding.

Put the 23's on the Topolinos and see how they ride!

We compared the Topolinos to our Bontragers using the exact same tires, same pressure, same bike over the same course. We were specifically looking for relief from the hits at the expansion cracks. There was no significant ride difference between the wheels.

Real world testing with no difference in the pudding.

Amen! and retest after the new wears off.

Amen! and retest after the new wears off.

Would 1800 miles have the new worn off? We would not want to back to our Bontragers. FOR US the Topolino wheels provide a ride that is significantly better than the Bontragers. We ran 25mm Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires on both sets of wheels at 120 psi.

Wayne in Illinois

Would 1800 miles have the new worn off? We would not want to back to our Bontragers. FOR US the Topolino wheels provide a ride that is significantly better than the Bontragers. We ran 25mm Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires on both sets of wheels at 120 psi.

Wayne in Illinois

Yep that is the sort of test I agree with. Glad you like your wheels. How is the ride quality of the tires? I have been impressed with the quality of other Schwalbe products.

Wayne in Texas

Yep that is the sort of test I agree with. Glad you like your wheels. How is the ride quality of the tires? I have been impressed with the quality of other Schwalbe products.

Wayne in Texas

I like them well enough to have bought three new ones. The current tires have 1800+ miles on them, the rear looks like it will go another 6 or 7 hundred miles and the front looks like it will go another 1800. The ride is good.

Wayne in Illinois

Put the 23's on the Topolinos and see how they ride!

I'm afraid to do that in case I have to sell the Macchiato afterwards! But I will, probably next week.

I did and ~2000 miles later, our initial opinion is the same. Outstanding set of wheels!

BTW, are Bontrager wheels noted for falling apart? We had a front hub crack on our Trek T2000 which we keep in the UK, and now I've had front rim crack on my solo 2004 Trek 2300. I sold our boat because it was getting too expensive to run and we weren't using it much, but now I'm wondering if I should have kept the boat and sold the bikes:)

There are some comparisons of posters in this thread of Topolino wheels with the Spinergy wheels on the thread:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/805776-Spinergy-Tx2-wheelset-opinions?p=14832360&highlight=#post14832360

I did and ~2000 miles later, our initial opinion is the same. Outstanding set of wheels!

BTW, are Bontrager wheels noted for falling apart? We had a front hub crack on our Trek T2000 which we keep in the UK, and now I've had front rim crack on my solo 2004 Trek 2300. I sold our boat because it was getting too expensive to run and we weren't using it much, but now I'm wondering if I should have kept the boat and sold the bikes:)

If you are talking about the paired spoke Bonties then yes, problematic even on singles.