Classic & Vintage - How to remedy spongy brakes

Cross posted with the mechanics forum

Ever since I finished my Mercian I have had one nagging problem... spongey brakes. I mean really spongey... like coaster brake spongey. I ride in the rain and had to drag my feet on the ground going down hill towards an intersection.

Here is why this seems so wrong. I have modern Dual pivot calibers, aluminum rims, modern aero brake levers AND really fancy kool stop cartridge pads. I have cleaned the rims and pads with alcohol on more than a few occasions.

The only thing I can guess is that the no name brake cable housing is to blame... the inner wires are stainless steel.

I recently installed these new calipers with no positive effect:

Tektro R559
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6151219249_38e89700a7_b.jpg

Here you can see the kool stop pads:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6090/6151219755_cf92cd59bd_b.jpg

Have you ever had this problem before or is it only this bike?

I have Tektro 559's and they work very well... Hmm.

Bonus question: has anyone successfully removed cloth tape with shellac and then re-used it? If not... I might try some Fizik microtex because I have been itching to try it.

Have you ever had this problem before or is it only this bike?

Only this bike. I did have an old set of wienmann sidepulls that never did work great. Most of my other bikes are great stoppers, that is how I know just how bad this one is. I've had success with many kinds of brakes, single pivot, center pulls and dual pivot.

Bonus question: has anyone successfully removed cloth tape with shellac and then re-used it? If not... I might try some Fizik microtex because I have been itching to try it.

You could apply denatured alcohol and try it, but I don't think it'd be worth the trouble.

You have all the ingredients for major stopping power, Matt. I'm not sure what's the matter. I use good quality housing and slick, pre-stretched cables. I suppose that could be the difference, but I still wouldn't expect yours to be as squishy as you describe.

Spongey brake cable housing?? That's all I got.

I dunno, I don't get it. You know how to set brakes up, you have good stuff... How about the levers?

I dunno, I don't get it. You know how to set brakes up, you have good stuff... How about the levers?

The levers are Tektro 200a so they should be fine. The cable housing is pretty cheapy stuff... bought mostly because it was gray. So what is the consensus on best functional value in brake housings... jagwire?

Do you ever grind your brake housing ends flat? This will help quite a bit, more often that not. Maybe it's the levers? How sure are you that the housing is all the way up into the base of the brake hoods? That can cause a problem too, if it's somehow not all the way there. How hard is the effort on the levers? I have noticed the combo of some calipers and levers together, can cause forced modulation unless you really grab hard. This can seem spongey too. Were they spongey with the other shoes?,,,,BD

I recently got a set of Jagwire "racer" cables, and whoa!! The majority of the housing is longways like shifter housing, with a few inches of spiral near the levers. The braking feels very smooth and powerful, granted the brakes are Tektro CR720's. Worth a try if you can find nothing else wrong...

Don't reuse your old tape. Think of it as the bicycle equivalent of dental floss: you don't save that, do you?

Regarding your brakes, as others have observed, there's nothing wrong with those calipers and pads. When you say spongy, do you mean the levers travel too far with little resistance, i.e., feel squishy? Or do you mean you really have to mash the levers to slow down? If it is the former, you need to look at where your cable housings anchor, and see if they are seated properly. If it is the latter, you may have to get more assertive with cleaning your rims and make sure the pads are addressing them squarely (toed in, of course). Any chance your aero levers were made for V-brakes?

I mean squishy in that I really have to use more force than I should to slow down. I don't mean casual force... I mean grabbing from the drops and SQUEEZING for all I am worth.

Bikedued, I do file the ends of all my cables flat. I was using some old budget Tektro calipers before and had the same feel to the brakes.

As far as levers, The brakes begin to operate with very little lever movement so I believe they are the correct style.

The picture shows what looks like a long reach caliper with the pad holders jammed all the way up. Looks odd. Might not be within this calipers range of optimum performance. Any reason you didn't choose regular reach?

The best brakes I have ever used to date were shimano 105 dual pivot calipers and levers. I can't remember what cables I used on that bike... but there was some effortless magic happening with those brakes... and they had old shimano pads.

The picture shows what looks like a long reach caliper with the pad holders jammed all the way up. Looks odd. Might not be within this calipers range of optimum performance. Any reason you didn't choose regular reach?

Yeah... I overshot to the opposite end of the spectrum. First I had old calipers set to their max reach.... I measured... but I measured wrong.

I'd say that the combo of wrong reach calipers and the damn salmon pads is the culprit. Never had any luck with red Kool Stops. Granted, my misery was more of the squealing nature, but still...

well, I do have some black inserts that I could try and other pads too. I think tomorrow I am going to run out to the LBS and buy high quality cables and try that first. If that doesn't change anything then I will think about finding new calipers.

Need some brutal truth here, does anyone here get really good performance from tektro brake calipers? This is my only experience with them and the review seem spotty. Maybe if I buy new calipers I should look at Shimano and others.

Don't reuse your old tape. Think of it as the bicycle equivalent of dental floss: you don'

Of course I do. I get all kinds of flack from the guys on dentalforums.net

So what is the consensus on best functional value in brake housings... jagwire?

http://store.icyclesusa.com/shimano-dura-ace-7800-road-bike-brake-cableset-p529.aspx?utm_medium=cse&utm_source=googlebase

I run Dura Ace almost exclusively. Sometimes it can be found for about $10. They are also gray by default.

A few other things that might help:

- Brake pad toe-in. If the pads aren't toed-in enough, stopping decreases greatly.
- make sure that the cable housings aren't kinked, in tight radius bends, too long or too short. Some frames don't route cables very smoothly
- Might want a stiffer pad compound. koolstops are fairly soft. I am not a fan.
- What rims are you using? Is the rim surface hard anodized? Hard anodized rims don't stop very well until you have worn completely through the coating. Depending on riding style and conditions, that could easily take 500-1000 miles

well, I do have some black inserts that I could try and other pads too. I think tomorrow I am going to run out to the LBS and buy high quality cables and try that first. If that doesn't change anything then I will think about finding new calipers.

Need some brutal truth here, does anyone here get really good performance from tektro brake calipers? This is my only experience with them and the review seem spotty. Maybe if I buy new calipers I should look at Shimano and others.

I've had 2 sets of tektro calipers and neither were as good as the shimano or campy dual pivot brakes I've used. Likewise I've had terrible luck with kool stop pads (squealing, super poor stopping power). I have some of the ebay fake carbon fiber pads (I know) and they crap on the kool stops they replaced.

I've never had the model of calipers that you do, maybe you just need different pads and housings. I would suggest trying that first and if you still don't like the brakes, get some campy ones (imo) with the right amount of reach. I have the same levers as you do on my bianchi and it stops on a dime so I don't think that is the issue.

I would also clean the rims well if you haven't already.

Need some brutal truth here, does anyone here get really good performance from tektro brake calipers? This is my only experience with them and the review seem spotty. Maybe if I buy new calipers I should look at Shimano and others.

In response to this, I will submit that I find Shimanos to outstrip Tektros in precision and longevity. In my experience, Shimano makes some of the best dual pivot brakes around, with Campy and Sram being decent substitutes of comparable quality. Cheaper brands such as Tektro tend to gum up quickly and don't have as smooth of an action since they often use a type of soft plastic bushing on the pivots that wears through rather quickly. Shimanos use a series of washers and on some higher end models actual bearings for the pivots. Campy does this too, iirc. I find that Ultegra is usually the best price/performance compromise for brakes. Gently used Ultegra 6600 set can be found for $40 sometimes these days, and the 6500 models are nearly the exact same design, (though maybe a tad less stiff than 6600). Here are a few deals I see fairly often:

- 6500/6600 Ultegra, the best budget brakes, $40-$60 used
- Sram Apex (and sometimes Rival), comparable to Ultegra, but a little flexier, great stopping even with stock pads, I've found them for $40 -$50 new. Great value, IMO
- Campy Veloce brakes, as good as the Apex, but no Q/R, stock pads aren't amazing, ~$40 new
- 105, good but Ultegras come up for sale more often and thus are usually cheaper, 105 doesn't seem to stay as smooth as 6600 either, $40
- older series Shimano (6403, 7403, 1055), excellent across the board but have slightly different cable pull ratio, $fluctuates

I grabbed a penny and adjusted the toe-in. I'll see if that makes any difference on the ride home. I should have done that from the start. Also, I failed to mention that I know for sure the front cable is much to short. I raised the stem after I installed the cables.... so that could be a big problem. Maybe I should lower the stem and see if that has an effect.

The problem is cheap outer cable, I setup a bike with early 80's shimano tourney using no name cables from ebay and had poor braking performance being able to pull the lever all the way to the bars and not stopping. I only used the stuff for two rides then threw it away.
Replaced it with jagwire and problem solved since then I've also had good results with dura-ace.
I noticed with the cheap stuff is the outer cable is not rigid enough and compresses between the lever and caliper, thats my two cents worth :)
Forgot to mention from the start I used modern quality pads.

Of course I do. I get all kinds of flack from the guys on dentalforums.net

now thats going green :)

3 issues are the primary cause of 'spongy brakes'

1. Cables
2. Cables
3. Brake pads

Secondary issues are primarily related to cheap brake hardware such as:

1. ultra flexy calipers. Sometimes you can see them flexing!!!
2. poor lever/caliper ratio. With some combinatiosn regardless of how hard or far you the pull ther your just just not going to have good mechanics.

Well, adjusting the toe-in seems to have made a significant improvement. It's still not perfect but I can actually stop now, and it was raining on my ride this morning. Great suggestion Rat Fink!!

I'm still going to replace the cables, maybe today.

The levers are Tektro 200a so they should be fine. The cable housing is pretty cheapy stuff... bought mostly because it was gray. So what is the consensus on best functional value in brake housings... jagwire?

FWIW: I use the lined brake housing from Niagara, the stuff they sell in 50 foot rolls for $11.99 (because it comes in colors and is cheap), and it has always worked fine for me. I've used it on a couple of hundred bikes. I always use SS cables, got a great deal on Shimano SS cables, so I have been using them for the last year.

Make sure the ends on the housing are trimmed nice and flush, and that they are FULLY seated into both the caliper and the lever, and that the housings are long enough. I find if the housing on the front brake is just a tad short, when I operate the brakes, the housing will tend to come out of the caliper. An inch or inch and a half longer makes all the difference. Had that happen yesterday. Measure twice, cut once.

As far as seating in the levers, I have a procedure for that but i'm not sure it's what everyone else does. I install the brake lines and set up the caliper first, then I squeeze the lever and tape the housings to the handlebars while the housing is under compression. That seems to keep it jammed in place pretty good. I also file the ends flat too.

Your right about the short housing. Between raising the stem and the different brake calipers the front housing is noticeably short. It doesn't quite pop out of the caliper... but it's probably close to doing so. When I replace the cables I am going to keep them long and jack the stem way up, I can always shorten them later if I want.

This is unlikely, but check your housing ends. If your housing and cable ends aren't decent, the inner spiral in the housing might be gradually breaking through at the lever end.

That said, I've seen R559's act spongy (with good housing and cables) when paired with certain levers - specifically first-gen Campagnolo Ergo. There is a possibility that the 200A's internal similarity to the second-gen Ergos might have a bearing on this, so you might want to look into this possibility.

-Kurt

Need some brutal truth here, does anyone here get really good performance from tektro brake calipers? This is my only experience with them and the review seem spotty. Maybe if I buy new calipers I should look at Shimano and others.

I've had pairs of Tektro 556 and 559 on two different bikes both using non-aero levers. Skids and endos could be easily acheived. I used Kool Stop dual compounds on one and the black Tektro compound on the other. Aluminum rims on both. VO housing and cables on both.

Something about your setup is awry, but none of us could say without being there. It's something I'd need to put my hands on.

I mean squishy in that I really have to use more force than I should to slow down. I don't mean casual force... I mean grabbing from the drops and SQUEEZING for all I am worth.

Sounds just like the Universals we used to use in the 70s. What's wrong with that?

Honestly, back in the day, people would use Campagnolo cables and housing to improve any brake. Too expensive these days though. I use whatever I find cheap.

What does filing the cable ends flat do? I just cut 'em with a pair of dykes.

Well, adjusting the toe-in seems to have made a significant improvement. It's still not perfect but I can actually stop now, and it was raining on my ride this morning. Great suggestion Rat Fink!!

I'm still going to replace the cables, maybe today.

Glad it worked. Yeah, definitely still replace the cable housings. I once tried to reuse some early Shimano SLR housing that came with a 105 groupset. The brakes were super spongy and weak, even with 105 aero levers, and 105 dual pivots. The old housing isn't as stiff as the new stuff. The compression of the housing soaks up the effort of the cable pull and takes that energy away from braking. When I changed the housing, the bike could stop on a dime.

I grabbed a penny and adjusted the toe-in. I'll see if that makes any difference on the ride home. I should have done that from the start. Also, I failed to mention that I know for sure the front cable is much to short. I raised the stem after I installed the cables.... so that could be a big problem. Maybe I should lower the stem and see if that has an effect.

Can you amplify on this?

Can you amplify on this?

Sure! My particular brake pads have a ball and socket like adjustability.... really just a bump and a concave washer. When I install the pads, I can stick a thin object underneath the back of the pad and squeeze it down to the rim. When I tighten the pad in that position, it holds that angle that the object created. Initially I used a penny, then I read that a penny is 1.55mm thick so I used a much thinner small paper clip instead.

Next, thank you to everyone for the helpful advice!

So I did buy new brake cables and bar tape today. I have to admit, it hurt to take off that cloth tape since it was still in such good shape. I ended up at Performance because, to my dismay, they are the only shop in town that carries fizik bar tape. Performance has an exclusive deal with clark's brake cables, so that is what I ended up with. I've never heard of the and never used them before. I installed the cables (sans those goofy red cable hotdogs they include) and took it out for a short ride... i'm talking 2 miles short. I'd say so far so good, the front brake is much better... I can stop abruptly, enough that the whole caliper flexes forward in a kind of scary way. I'd say the rear is a wash, no better no worse... but then it's the rear.

I jacked the stem way up and kept the cables long. I can trim them shorter if I want but this time I won't be trapped into keeping the stem low.

Here is the old cable, you can see how short the front is. If I turned the handlebars far enough it would actuate the break.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6176/6175820183_3e2f1368f3_z.jpg

See, I told you I finish my cable ends!!
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6163/6175820911_012c08e58b_z.jpg

New cables installed and left long. I had my choice of black, black and black. I dont think the red fizik tape looks as tacky as I was afraid it would. Some red electrical tape is definitely in order.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6167/6175821551_e186f8e61f_z.jpg

Matt, just a thought: How wide are those rims on the Mercian?

-Kurt

The fizik tape looks nice. I think you'll find that it's very durable and easy to keep clean.

Matt, just a thought: How wide are those rims on the Mercian?

-Kurt

Not very, but they are temporary. Right now I have a mismatched Mavic MA2 and a Wienmann concave. Eventually I build wider rims to nicer hubs.

Hold the phone. Step aside.

I disagree with just about everyone here.

First of all, spongy and squishy mean the opposite of the phenomenon you're describing. Spongy brakes are brakes that, when you squeeze the levers, you can always squeeze them a little more. It sounds like you have stiff-acting brakes. Sponginess is from too much leverage. Stiffness is from too little leverage. I don't know those levers, but if they're designed for v-brakes, there's your problem. I notice those are the only things you haven't swapped out.

I'm sure it's not the pads. Absolutely sure. And it's not the rims, either.

Better housings will help, and as bikedued said, you'd be surprised at how much it helps when you file the ends of the housings flat. Also, a thick, heavy cable can help. But these things help mostly when the brake is too spongy, not too stiff. They can help you, though, because they improve control without increasing leverage.

Also, you may consider housing that doesn't have a plastic liner. Housing that is bare metal inside will more quickly develop friction over the months and years, but if you maintain the lubrication, it won't be a problem. Since plastic liners in housings compress a lot more than steel, it adds a bit of a spongy feel and sacrifices control a slight bit.

Ha, Tom you are a little late to the party! I swapped the cables already and got better performance from the front brake. As fas as that squeeze, then squeeze a bit more... I actually can do that. I can watch the arms flex a bit when I squeeze the levers very hard. The levers are Tektro 200a, which I think are just the standard road... caliper type model.

The levers are Tektro 200a, which I think are just the standard road... caliper type model.

Thing is, just how close is the mechanical advantage of the 200A to the Campag Ergo - VS. any other comparable set that might give better performance?

Remember what I mentioned in my previous post: I found that an R559 set hooked up to early Ergos felt the exact same way you describe. It could be that the 200A isn't the best lever to use with the R559 due to its design origins.

-Kurt

You need new metal endcaps on both sides of each section of your housing. I use fizik dual tape and love it. i use campy housings/cables

You need new metal endcaps on both sides of each section of your housing. I use fizik dual tape and love it. i use campy housings/cables

I'm quite sure I see a proper cable end in the photos above.

Campagnolo cable kits are needlessly expensive for what you get. A Jagwire kit provides just the same (if not above and beyond the norm with their Kevlar kits) for half the price.

-Kurt

That's great, but most aero levers, and even more modern brakes won't accept metal ferrules. There's simply no room for them.

I put the short reach Tektro levers on my gf's bike, paired with mid eighties sidepull single pivot 600 brakes. It has lined cables and the whole thing. I am not satisfied with the feel they give, kinda slow to return and mushy feeling. I thought it was the Dia Compe knockoff calipers that were on it before, but not a lot changed when I switched to quality brakes. I would have to try a set on my own bike to decide for sure if I like them or not. So far I've never had the chance to do so.,,,,BD

I was able to use metal ferrules with these levers. Every single cable end has a ferrule.