Classic & Vintage - OK, looking for some ancient Cinelli info

Howdy!

I have an old Cinelli SC that my dad gave me in 1968. I have loved this bike ever since, but never dug into its history as deeply as I want to do now. It was a used bike at the time, but a very good one. It was purchased from Oscar Wastyn in Chicago, at the same time my dad bought his 1964 Paramount (since restored by me and given to one of my sons). At any rate, the Cinelli was "full Campy", yet it was a used bike. I wonder if the bikes were fully assembled by Cinelli, using parts available, or if they were framesets imported and assembled by pro bike shops. I guess the reason I have to wonder is that some of the components are not consistent with what I have found on the internet. Obviously the frame is correct, but I'm unsure of the exact yer of manufacture. The fork is correct, and (I must assume) original to the bike. It has a 1st generation Record RD and FD, Record hubs, headset, cranks, Regina Extra freewheel, Brampton chain (France), Campy pedals with Christophe clips and white leather straps, Campy seatpost, cable guides and clips, shifters. Universal Mod 61 brake in the back, Weinmann Vainqeur 999 in the front (I changed the front brake to a period correct Universal a year or two ago). Universal brake levers with DiaCompe gum hoods, original ribbed grey cable housings. It has no braze-ons, all clamps. Cinelli bars look right, the stem looks similar to an ADA, but no markings on it that I know about. It came with Tubulars (I don't know the make- I was young), but my dad had our hubs fitted with Weinmann concave hoops and clinchers around 1975 or 76. They work great, and I use them when I want to run clinchers, but have since bought a second wheelset and run 21,, tubulars with a 6 speed freewheel most of the time. I also upgraded to a Nuovo Record RD last summer while trying to track down a click in the drivetrain. It turned out to be a click in a peday, but I haven't yet found the time/inclination to swap the original back on there. Maybe over the winter. At least it's still rolling great..

The decals were screwed up when I got the bike, as most of them were (I was told that the bikes were shipped over on a boat, and the guys loading the boats would grab the bikes by the tubes, thus messing up the freshly applied decals in combination with the moisture of the sea). The downtube decals are long gone, but most of the seat tube decals are still there.. The paint is terrible, much of it is gone, but I'm not sure if I want to change it. Most people would look at the bike and think "What an old piece of junk". Since I ride it all the time, it seems less likely to be stolen this way, as opposed to a refinished, re-decaled showstopper. It's a great bike, an old friend. I would hate to lose it for many reasons, so it will stay beautiful in its own unsightly way..

I guess I wonder if the stem is original, if Cinelli would have substituted a Weinmann front brake as opposed to Universal (to match the rear brake) in the event of a shortage, or if the bike had had some parts swapped out before it was mine.. I would also be interested in knowing the manufacturing date. I'll go take pics and try to post some in a few minutes. Hope you can shed some light on it.

Thanks for taking the time to read this little book. ;)

Sounds like a great bike. I enjoyed the read, but a picture says a thousand words! Dating Cinelli's to the exact year is very difficult, but at least you have 1968 as a guide. If the hubs are original there may be a date code on the lock-nuts, which would help narrow it down for you. There are also some other indicators such as oiler ports in the bb, holes or lack thereof in the lugs etc. that can be good guides. The Universal Model 61's would have been original, the Weinmann would not. The hoods on the levers are replacements. The chain would have been a Regina, but chains are components that get changed pretty regularly as they wear. The stem would have been a Cinelli, I would expect steel from that vintage. Are you sure the little Cinelli Milano engraving hasn't just worn off? Everything else sounds correct.

Pics please!

19 pics at the link below.. along with misc. hundreds of other stuff.. sorry.

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/dabluzeguy/

Thanks for the reply! I hope I covered enough detail.. The wheels are currently on my '72 Paramount, hanging deep in the garage. I'll try to dig them out soon, but it's getting to be a busy day today..

Here's the bike, it needs a good bath. I haven't ridden it for at least an hour... ;)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/dabluzeguy/S7301639.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/dabluzeguy/S7301638.jpg

Nice bike. With both of the oiler holes and the components, I'd say the 1964 date of the Parmount would be just about right for the Cinelli. The stem is not a Cinelli but an aluminum or steel would be OK. Cinelli made aluminum stems starting in 1960.

Do not repaint, it is fine, just needs a good cleaning.

I'd say early 60's as well. Check the front derailleur, is the cable stop split or solid where the cable housing goes in? The earlier ones were solid. Might be the best clues as I do not think the hubs are original to the bike.

I would not paint it either. I have a very similar ealy 60's SC with lots of "age wear", but it still looks great.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/54616231@N04/sets/72157626242903275/

Mine is mostly "period correct", although it would not have had the sidepull calipers and I used a modern Nitto steel handlebar to fit the old Cinelli steel stem.

Thanks!

The hubs are definitely not original to this bike, I put these on to ride my tubulars.. These are Tipo hubs laced to Fiamme Red Labels. The originals are on another bike right now, fairly inaccessible at the moment. They are Record hubs with the little metal oil hole covers.
Here's the split cable stop
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/dabluzeguy/S7301641.jpg

I'm not sure if the serial number is significant or not so much..

Cinelli serial numbers are completely random prior to 1980.

Beautiful bike! I wouldn't repaint it, it just needs a good cleaning and waxing. Replacement decals are readily available. It's hard to say what's been switched out over time. Did Record front derailleurs even exist in 1962? I was expecting Gran Sport. Also the BB cable guide on mine has the little tube through it - the earlier type which I would have expected as well. Personally I would throw a Cinelli stem on there, it being a Cinelli and all. Also when did the "Wolf Ears" disappear from the lugs? Yours does not have them. What's the BCD on those cranks? Anyway it looks like you're riding it and enjoying it, which is what it's all about, it's awesome.

But... lose the kickstand! ;)

Beautiful bike! I wouldn't repaint it, it just needs a good cleaning and waxing. Replacement decals are readily available. It's hard to say what's been switched out over time. Did Record front derailleurs even exist in 1962? I was expecting Gran Sport. Also the BB cable guide on mine has the little tube through it - the earlier type which I would have expected as well. Personally I would throw a Cinelli stem on there, it being a Cinelli and all. Also when did the "Wolf Ears" disappear from the lugs? Yours does not have them. What's the BCD on those cranks? Anyway it looks like you're riding it and enjoying it, which is what it's all about, it's awesome.

But... lose the kickstand! ;)

Record front was available in '60-'61 I believe, Record rear about '63. I think IAB is right on the money with a '64 estimate on this one. "Wolf Ear" lugs were out by '60 or earlier. Of course I always figure +/- a couple of years and never say "always" when discussing older Italian racing bikes and parts. Having to know an exact year of something is not important to me, and I'm sure it was not important to the people who made, sold, and raced these bikes in the day.

And yes, loose the kickstand!!

That's a beautiful, and dirty, bike Rich. What a family treasure. If bikes could talk, I'm sure that one would tell us much more than your great story so far. Clean that beauty up carefully, ditch that stem and kick stand and source a few more original parts and you're in like Flynn. Wonderful machine. Thanks for showing us.

Very nice bike!

I am not positive, but I believe Cinelli sold frame sets, not complete bikes. If so, the previous owner(s) is/are likely responsible for the component choices and some of the anomolies (e.g. one Universal brake, one Weinmann brakes).

In any event, thanks for sharing the pics and the story. It's good to know that this old warhorse has been well-loved almost all of its life.

Thanks for the replies. ;) I always thought it was about a '62-'64 bike with some replaced items on it.. Your input is helping me cement my convictions. It's one of those bikes that will stay with me to the grave, then one of my kids or grandkids will get it. My dad has been trying to talk me into trading for his 1964 Paramount for over 40 years, but I never did. Now he finally had to quit riding his Paramount (he's 81) so it went to my oldest son. I had the pleasure of tearing it completely apart, and restoring it to original (with a few period correct upgrades). That's another long story, best left for another thread sometime.
I've been so busy working on other bikes that I have neglected the Cinelli this season, and now that I have had a look at it I'm appalled with the filth that has accumulated on it. Typically, my bikes are clean enough to eat off of. This one has been hanging on a hook all summer. Guess I had better get it on the list for a bath real soon..

I raced this bike from 1968 through about 1971, then stopped racing in favor of girls, and all the other vices that came along at age 16 in the early 70's. Now I've come full circle, and appreciate riding for the challenges, the scenery, and the solitude. Riding this particular bike brings me to a different state of mind- a different time- and there are so many memories of riding it over the years that another, more modern bike may be better technically, but will never rival this one.

The kickstand went on it when I let my son use it when he was in the eighth grade. I didn't want it to get beat up from being tossed around.. I know it's sacrilege, but it stays. I have plenty of other bikes sans kickstands.

Again, thanks for confirming my thoughts. I'll get a few more pics of it after it gets cleaned, and I put the original wheels on it.

As far as decals go, I'm torn on the idea. I would love to have the name on there again, but am a little paranoid about theft is I advertise what it really is.

I'd like to see the bike in person. I usually organize a vintage ride out of Crystal Lake in the spring. Hopefully you can make it next year. Then again, I was thinking about a possible fall ride too ...

Only reason I think we're concerned about the kick stand Rich is they have a tendency to damage chain stays. And those are very valuable chain stays. As for the decals, your choice of course but as far as theft goes, I would say there's no mistaking that bike, even without complete signage. Your dad only quit riding his Paramount because he's 81 ? What a guy!
Great to see a true vintage classic here.

Oh man, that's SUCH a nice bike!

It's raining rare bikes. Not here though.. such a nice bike.

Well, Thanks again.

The Crystal Lake ride is something I would def be up for, Fall, Spring, whenever. I just did the Harmon Hundred a couple of weeks ago, (well, 75 miles of it anyway..), and I didn't ride this one.. the gearing is a little too high for me to cope with some of those hills. Last year I rode my Dawes Galaxy on that ride, and it almost did me in. This year I built up a Motobecane frame with 18 speeds and it was much better. Maybe the Cinelli next year, after another summer of preparation.

I guess I understand the kickstand thing. I've seen too many chainstays crushed by the clamps by some bonehead with big muscles. I'll take it off and inspect it when I clean up the bike, and decide at that time. I do appreciate the concern, just the same. My son tried real hard to get me to put a kickstand on my dad's Paramount, but I refused. Same reason. I don't have one on my Motobecane, my Paramount, my Bottecchia, my Bridgestone, my track bike, or any of my other nice bikes.. Wow.. too many good ones.. I'm a little OCD. ;)

My dad moved to Vienna, Austria about 25 years ago, and took his bike and violin with him. He has spent the last few years traveling with his second wife, riding his bikes, and playing classical music. Not a bad way to go.. He had to give up the Paramount, as it is too hard for him to get on and off of it now. He bought a Giant step-through electric assist bike, but it is too heavy for him, and he has had a number of spills. His wife told him to sell it and quit riding. I told him to sell it and get a lightweight mixte, like a Peugeot, that he can handle- and keep on riding. If he can still enjoy it, I think he should. I think it will either keep him in better shape or do him in. Either way, it's on his own terms. I guess he's bike shopping now... LOL

Again, I do appreciate the kind and helpful replies.

[QUOTE=rich rice;13270007

My dad moved to Vienna, Austria about 25 years ago, and took his bike and violin with him.
[/QUOTE]

I love it ! :)

I would guess early 60's too due to the bottom bracket oil port. The missing Cinelli on the down tube was more likely due to an error of a mechanic clamping the bike in a Schwinn workstand. These bikes were shipped not in containers but boxes or crates, probably a crate with other bikes of the same order. At the time transfers were not clear coated over so damaging or removal was not that difficult. Front derailleur is not the very early unit but consistent with 1963-1964 due to the cable stop. the cable guide near the bottom bracket is not correct, the original got changed out. The cranks got changed out too, Campagnolo cranks of the day used a 151 mm bolt hole circle, these are 144, but the later cranks do allow a 42t inner ring, it was a common change if one had the coin. The stem was probably changed out, a "racer" bike shop such as where this bike was purchased from would fit the bike to the client. Seat might also be a later change, but not much later, before '68 or a that time. Who knows about the brakes, Universals had a bad rep for a while primarily due to the hard pads even when new, and if a mechanic had tried to toe the brake in to stop noise, could easily have broken an alloy arm.

I would not refinish it but conserve what is there, and only replace the downtube transfer with a varnish fix type. Rebuild it.

Thanks for your assessment. I am not familiar with varnish fix type transfers, are they readily available? I've seen early Cinelli repros on ebay, but have remained undecided about putting anything "replica" on the bike, besides my aforementioned fear of calling attention to it. Seems many thieves would walk past it, thinking it was an old heap- but if they see the beautiful "CINELLI" on the downtube, well- they might not know bikes, but they might recognize the name and know it is valuable. I often choose a different bike to ride, due to the possibility of theft. I would love to have that cool lettering on there again. ;)

How about a vintage ride on 08 Oct 11? A few of us down in the City were thinking about organizing a ride. You guys want to join us? My early 60s SC was repainted many moons ago (and not well). I'd leave yours just as it is (a little clean and polish not withstanding).

Nice!

That's a beautiful, and dirty, bike Rich. What a family treasure. If bikes could talk, I'm sure that one would tell us much more than you're great story so far. Clean that beauty up carefully, ditch that stem and kick stand and source a few more original parts and you're in like Flynn. Wonderful machine. Thanks for showing us.
This.

How about a vintage ride on 08 Oct 11? A few of us down in the City were thinking about organizing a ride. You guys want to join us? My early 60s SC was repainted many moons ago (and not well). I'd leave yours just as it is (a little clean and polish not withstanding).

Nice!

Thanks for the invitation! I'm very up for rides, and would enjoy that. I am currently waiting for a call from my daughter, though, who is about to have a baby.. The bus is driving itself right now, and I'm afraid to make any plans. Her due date is Sunday, and her doctor told her it could come at any time. I'll refer back to this thread as soon as I know something, but I hve a feeling the next few weeks are going to be insane. This will be our first grandchild, so I'm not sure what to expect yet.

Good fortune with the new grand child grandpa! As for the transfer/decal question, I can sympathize with your concerns. If that bike was mine, I'd be afraid to lock it up or leave it anywhere. I wouldn't take my eyes off it. City riding and lock up? That's what the Bottecchia is for :)

Trouble is, my Bottecchia is absolutely stunning, I'd cry like a baby if something happened to it...

Quick question- Since the Cinelli came to me with this stem installed, I'm not sure which model/markings would be "correct". Any info would be appreciated.

OK.. Second dumb question: If the cable guide had been changed out, what was there initially? Maybe one of those little metal flexible housings like on the RD? Then a single guide for the RD with a cable stop for the FD?

Thanks!

P.S.- the kickstand is gone. LOL

Have you added your information to the Cinelli Registry (http://www.cinelliregistry.com/)?

Trouble is, my Bottecchia is absolutely stunning, I'd cry like a baby if something happened to it...


uh oh. Better move down the list. Happen to have a Schwinn Varsity you can grab groceries on?

Quick question- Since the Cinelli came to me with this stem installed, I'm not sure which model/markings would be "correct". Any info would be appreciated.


http://www.43bikes.com/cinellistemtimeline.html

I don't have a great pic of the cable guide on my Frejus Rich, but can provide one if you like. Someone here may have a shot. They're not too common and command a premium on ebay, but maybe you can find a passable one either here or on the CR list. As for the stem, I'll leave that to the experts, which I aint.

http://www.43bikes.com/cinellistemtimeline.html

Thanks very much for posting that Iab. First time I've seen a definitive chart on dating Cinelli stems. Thanks.

Awesome! Thanks for the links. It looks like I have a 1-A stem on my Dawes Galaxy. Nice stem, but I really like the one on my Cinelli better. Something about the lines of it. Great to know what may have been on it originally, but I think I'm going to keep it as-is, at least for now. That site (43 Bikes is really good. I spent some time looking through it, and will likely spend much more time there when I have a chance.

I have seen the Cinelli Registry, but no, I have not provided any info to them. I will consider it, but I'm not sure of any benefit.

I think I found one of those cable guides on ebay- they want $100 for it- but I guess I like the double on my bike better than another cable. Again, it has never given me a problem, and it's a cool looking old Campy part- maybe an upgrade, maybe not.. either way, I'll clean what's on there and it suits me fine.. :)

A couple of other things have come to mind since having thought back over the years.. The bike came with a frame pump, which worked but not well. I remember trying to fix it by pouring oil inside the tube, and it never worked good enough to suit me. It was silver with a cool design molded in the handle, with a chrome sleeve on the opposite end, and a Campy umbrella top on the seat tube. The head of the pump fit down between the downtube and seat tube, where they join the BB shell. It had a chrome Campy head on it. I think I threw it away bout 25 years ago. Dumb. Well, it was never any good, and I seldom left it on the bike anyway..It looked cool though. I wish I still had it now.

Also, if I remember correctly, the seat on my bike was plastic without leather covering- but I can't recall 100%. It had a rubber band kind of thing hanging across the rails with a chrome hook, someplace to strap a water bottle or a spare tire. I miss that gizmo, have not seen another like it since. I replaced it with an Avenir gel saddle about the same time as I ditched the pump. I have torn my house apart looking for that seat, but to no avail. The Unicanitor on this bike is the seat that was on my dad's '64 Paramount. I like it much better than my original saddle. I don't think I dumped the saddle, but can't find it anywhere.. Drag.

Have you added your information to the Cinelli Registry (http://www.cinelliregistry.com/)?

Unfortunately, I don't think that the site owner has accepted any updates in at least a few years. At the least, he never responded to my submission.

Also, didn't he include ownership of the site with a recent auction?

Awesome! Thanks for the links. It looks like I have a 1-A stem on my Dawes Galaxy. Nice stem, but I really like the one on my Cinelli better. Something about the lines of it. Great to know what may have been on it originally, but I think I'm going to keep it as-is, at least for now. That site (43 Bikes is really good. I spent some time looking through it, and will likely spend much more time there when I have a chance.

I have seen the Cinelli Registry, but no, I have not provided any info to them. I will consider it, but I'm not sure of any benefit.

I think I found one of those cable guides on ebay- they want $100 for it- but I guess I like the double on my bike better than another cable. Again, it has never given me a problem, and it's a cool looking old Campy part- maybe an upgrade, maybe not.. either way, I'll clean what's on there and it suits me fine.. :)

A couple of other things have come to mind since having thought back over the years.. The bike came with a frame pump, which worked but not well. I remember trying to fix it by pouring oil inside the tube, and it never worked good enough to suit me. It was silver with a cool design molded in the handle, with a chrome sleeve on the opposite end, and a Campy umbrella top on the seat tube. The head of the pump fit down between the downtube and seat tube, where they join the BB shell. It had a chrome Campy head on it. I think I threw it away bout 25 years ago. Dumb. Well, it was never any good, and I seldom left it on the bike anyway..It looked cool though. I wish I still had it now.

Also, if I remember correctly, the seat on my bike was plastic without leather covering- but I can't recall 100%. It had a rubber band kind of thing hanging across the rails with a chrome hook, someplace to strap a water bottle or a spare tire. I miss that gizmo, have not seen another like it since. I replaced it with an Avenir gel saddle about the same time as I ditched the pump. I have torn my house apart looking for that seat, but to no avail. The Unicanitor on this bike is the seat that was on my dad's '64 Paramount. I like it much better than my original saddle. I don't think I dumped the saddle, but can't find it anywhere.. Drag.

Congrats on the pending addition to the family. All the best to you and yours.

You shouldn't have much trouble finding Unicanitor saddle. Also, if you find one with a thrashed leather cover, you can simply remove the covering as the plastic base is the same as the plastic-only models (I believe).

The tire holder that you're looking for is probably this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ITEM-17-NOS-ZEUS-SPARE-TUBULAR-HOLDER-/360395854540?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e94452cc

and the pump is along the lines of this (not sure about size though)?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SILCA-IMPERO-Frame-Pump-SILVER-45-50-cm-size-NOS-NEW-/250892507405?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6a5bd90d

Campy heads aren't too hard to find...

Best of luck. Let me know if I can help.

- Bob

Yep, right on both the tire holder and the pump. I think my pump had more of a domed top on yhe handle, it fit snugly into the little Campy cap that was on the seat tube.. As I recall, that clip had a sort of rounded cross pattern stamped in it with sharp points in the center. As a kid, I got pinched in there more than once, and it drew blood. I think they changed that shape on later incarnations by adding a ring in the center of the cutout. Thanks for the links. I'll keep an eye on those auctions and count my pennies.. lol

The Unicanitor I pinched from my dad's bike is pretty rough, but it is solid and comfortble. My old plastic one was never comfortable to me. Luckily, my son didn't like this one, so he gave it back to me. We got him a Brooks Imperial for the Paramount, which he loves.

Hi Rich,

The cable guide your thinking about (I had one on my Cinelli), only works (I believe) with a GS front derailleur with a cable stop. The set-up looks great, but the FD itself can only handle a shift of 2 or 4 teeth smoothly, so it really limits your choices of chainrings. I put both (the FD and cable guide) in my "Cinelli" box because I like having the option of a 52/42 split. The old plastic saddle would have been a Unica saddle before it became Unicanitor under Cinelli, and would have said "Unica" on one side and "Nitor" on the other. It would commonly have been paired with a Nitor seatpost. I tried for months to get used to that saddle, but it is monstrously uncomfortable, at any angle, for any amount of time. I have my Ideale 80 on the Cinelli now, and am very thankful I gave up on the Unica. It sounds like your Cinelli is your daily driver like mine is, and I think if that's the case there's nothing wrong with making certain concessions to originality for the sake of function.

Think I'm going to stick with the setup that's on it as-is at this point.. I have an old logo stem in real clean shape, but honestly love the one that's on there.. I hit it with some Simichrome polish to a mirror finish, and it's looking great. The double cable guide is slick, I have always liked that piece of hardware, and it works flawlessly- don't fix it if it ain't broke, right!?!

I did switch back to the original derailleur in the rear, (I had swapped it out for a Nuovo Record drailleur last summer), and it works beautifully, as it always has.

A bath is in progress, the bike looks much better already- but it will be an ongoing process, as I ride the bike too often to just disassemble it for any length of time. I opened up and regreased the BB, replaced the shifter cables, removed and cleaned the derailleurs, polished the stem and seatpost, cleaned and gently polished the frame.. I was fairly successful at reducing/removing the surface rust from the chrome bits and chainstay. The chainstay had some appreciable rust where the chain has slapped through the paint over the years- I'm undecided about how to handle sealing the bare metal. Not sure if it would be better to use a grey primer or just shoot a coat of clear on there.. I have loads of experience shooting lacquers (I build guitars for a living), but can't decide what the lesser evil would be- refinish the upper/inside of the chainstay, or just seal it up and leave it ugly.. I had already disassembled, degreased, and repacked the wheel bearings and trued up the rims..

I found a great price on a Zeus tubular strap at Ben's Cycles in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.. Brand new in the box. Awesome. ;)

I took it out for a short ride last night (about 10 miles), and it is as good or better than it has ever been. What a great bike!

Fresh photos, please. Just to inspire.


Best of luck with the family addition!