Bicycle Mechanics - Chains - bicycle vs motorcycle

Yeah, slightly off topic, but I got passed by a motorcycle this morning on the way into work, and I got to wondering about the maintenance issues with a motorcycle chain.

How long does a chain last, and how much cleaning/lubing do they require, how much do they cost, etc., etc.? And does asking such questions in a motorcycle forum bring out the religious "thou shalt do..." posts from everyone? :-)

How long does a chain last
Two main types of motorbike chain nowadays:
O-Ring, classic type of chain with the rubber o-rings people use and love all the time
X-Ring, similar to o-ring, but the cross section of it is an X. This helps keep lube inside the chain and as a result makes the chain last about twice as long for a small extra amount ($15ish)

O-ring (if properly lubricated and cared for during life) lasts around (on average) 20,000 miles, X-ring around 40,000 miles (less than most bikes have done if you splash out for a fancy chain, so this is frequently debated)

There's not so much of a "when it stretches 1/8 of an inch or 3mm you've used x% of it's life) with bike chains, but when they get to the end of their life they suddenly stretch a large amount (before they snap, see below). There's a wear indicator on the adjuster on the swing-arm which also helps with rear wheel alignment.


how much cleaning/lubing do they require
Normally you lube the chain every 500 miles with either wax or PTFE based lubricant (I use motorbike lube on my bike chains) and should be degreased and properly cleaned every 2000 miles, according to manufacturer guidelines.

There's very big warnings about having the bike not running while cleaning the chain. If you get your fingers caught while the engine is turning over they will get cut off. It's happened MANY times to people!


how much do they cost
A lot more than cycle chains! The last one I bought cost about £75, which is around $120.


etc., etc.?
Some have similar "power links" like on bicycles, but most sports bike chains have rivet links that have to be broken or cur off with an angle grinder when replacing. You also don't buy a length of chain and shorten it, you normally buy one with exactly the right amount of links.

There's no tensioner (like a derailer) on a motorbike so you have to watch for chain slackening and move the back axel like on a single speed bike.

I've had an o-ring chain snap before (at 22,000 miles) when I was travelling (very) fast and it simply rolled off. I've heard of people who have lost limbs because the chains can snap just after the rear (always large ~40 teeth) sprocket. The chain whips round and can damage the engine and cause big damage to the bike and rider.


I think this is mostly representative of motorcyclists (in the UK anyway), but it could just be my opinion on everything!

Any more questions? :D

Motorcycle chains are far larger, heavier and stronger than bicycle chains for obvious reasons. A quick Google search turned up motorcycle chains costing from $25 to $450 so there is a wide range of quality depending on use and engine size. Also, motorcycle chains are all "single speed" in that they run a fixed chainline and never move from their sprockets so they don't have to allow sideways flex like derailleur chains.

I don't know how contentious the lube and maintenance issues are but motorcycle chains are available with O-ring seals which probably eliminate the routine lubrication problem and its attendant arguments. Chains that do require periodic lubrication can use much heavier body lubes since the minor drag caused by them is a non-issue where bicyclists, with their very limited "horsepower", want the lowest viscosity stuff we can get.

Something I forgot to mention about lubrication is that there are also continuous lubrication systems available. I think they are patented under the name Scottoiler because I've only heard of them being sold as that.

They basically have a can of oil mounted on the bike and as the bike moves along a small amount goes onto the chain to lubricate it. It's supposed to give the chain a huge amount of extra life (doubling or tripling it, apparently)

Motorcycle chains are far larger, heavier and stronger than bicycle chains for obvious reasons. A quick Google search turned up motorcycle chains costing from $25 to $450 so there is a wide range of quality depending on use and engine size. Also, motorcycle chains are all "single speed" in that they run a fixed chainline and never move from their sprockets so they don't have to allow sideways flex like derailleur chains.

I don't know how contentious the lube and maintenance issues are but motorcycle chains are available with O-ring seals which probably eliminate the routine lubrication problem and its attendant arguments. Chains that do require periodic lubrication can use much heavier body lubes since the minor drag caused by them is a non-issue where bicyclists, with their very limited "horsepower", want the lowest viscosity stuff we can get.

Ha, ha, ha.... Lubing motorcycle chains is the quickest and biggest religious war on those forums, just like here.

Quality motorcycle chains last anywhere between 15 and 30K miles with typical maintenance. Of course there will always be someone who obsesses about maximizing that number and relating it to his penis size.

The big difference is that motorcycle sprockets wear out roughly as rapidly, and it's highly advantageous to replace them as a set, so you have three different wear components and you end up at the lowest of the three being your total chain life.

KeS

MNBC, Generally a motorcycle chain will stretch more rapidly when new and then settle down as opposed to a bicycle chain. Two reasons, bicyclists make less power and a motorcycle chain also is under tension during decel. I service the motorcycle chains the same as my bicycle chains, except they stay on the motorcycle. A properly broken in and maintained X ring motorcycle chain can last 40K miles and average replacement cost for a chain and two sprockets is usually in the $250USD range, which may not be far off from a bicycle's driveline expense for the same mileage.

Brad

Generally you replace the front and rear sprockets when you change a motorcycle chain as well. They tend to wear out together.

i never got more than about 5k out of a motorcycle chain (yes, even the good ones). then again, i launched quickly and used a fair amount of engine braking. shelling out $120 each time kind of hurt. that's why riding a bicycle now is nice in so many ways: i get at least 5k out of a chain, and i still go as fast as i can :)

Here is one big difference between motorcycle chains and bicycle chains: Motorcycle chains have bushing that are press fit between the inner chain plates. The pins, press fit to the outer plates, ride in these bushings. Bicycle chains don't have separate bushing and instead, the inner plates are formed to create bushings. The formed bushings on opposing inner plates meet but are not joined in the center of the chain. Lube placed on the roller of a bicycle chain can wick down under the roller, through the gap between the side plate bushings and onto the pin. In motorcycle chains, there is no such path. To lube the pin, the lube has to go between the inner and outer side plates. As others have pointed out, most motorcycle chains have rubber seals around the pins between the inner and outer plates to keep the factory lube in, but they also keep any subsequently applied lube out. When you lube a motorcycle chain, you're basically only lubricating the rollers and keeping the outside surfaces of the chain from rusting.

I just cleaned it with a grunge brush and kerosene every 600 miles (a couple weeks worth of riding for me) and used chain wax. My chains and sprockets lasted 20,000 miles.

Any discussion having to do with lubrication is guaranteed to start an internet flame war worthy of a U.N. intervention. But feel free to ask.

Not to get too off topic during an off topic discussion . . .

My motorcycle uses shaft drive. Maintenance consists of changing the gear oil every few years. Belts are also popular among the motorcycle set. Hmmm . . . maybe we should start a bicycle belt/shaft drive discussion.

One of the many good things about my old kawi was the shaft drive. Lubing splines every tire change instead of the maintenance of a chain was a dream.

I had a motorcycle for about two years and never did jack to the chain. Never had a problem. Not saying that's a good idea... :P

OMG It's a motorcycle chain lube thread on BF....Trust me, it is one of those topics in the motorcycle forum world that does not go well. You will get every opinion, ranging from what is the best lube to you don't need to lube. It is a no win topic.

Slowly I turned.......step by step.......inch by inch......:D

Not to get too off topic during an off topic discussion . . .

My motorcycle uses shaft drive. Maintenance consists of changing the gear oil every few years. Belts are also popular among the motorcycle set. Hmmm . . . maybe we should start a bicycle belt/shaft drive discussion.

Yeah, some of the new belt drive stuff looks intriguing, and i know absolutely jack about it.

Do motorcycle chains have the same chain wear indicator tools? How come motorcycles don't have gears like bicycles? Should you use a wet or dry lube? Do motorcycle chains tend to come off, particularly when going uphill? Why is... ?

re: belts and drive shaft. Yeah, I almost threw out questions about those too but thought that may be pushing it a bit. :-)

Do motorcycle chains have the same chain wear indicator tools?
They use the same method (you measure a number of links that are a specific size) but I've never seen one of those tools you hook around 1 link and have a 0.5, 0.75 and 1% wear scales on it.


How come motorcycles don't have gears like bicycles?
They have sequential gearboxes, similar to cars. Most bikes nowadays have 6 gears (mine both do)


Should you use a wet or dry lube?
Huge debate over this. Also is WD40 a suitable lubricant!? Do O-ring swell or perish with WD40?


Do motorcycle chains tend to come off, particularly when going uphill? Why is... ?
Nope, they don't have the same kind of horizontal play that bicycle chains need to move between gears so they never come off if properly tensioned and adjusted.

"O-ring" motorcycle chains are pre-lubed at the factory and the O or X rings are supposed to keep the lube in the roller and pin assemblies for the life of the chain. Lubing the exterior of the chain is just additive to it, but does not contribute to the lubrication of the chain as much as the internally trapped lubrication from the factory. It is not a good idea to wash off the chain with pressure wahsers as it can drive the factory lubrication out of the sealed roller pin areas protected by the O or X rings. You aslo have to be careful not to use any solvent/cleaners on motocycle chains that can attack the O or X rings. Kerosene based solvents like WD40 is safe to use on O ring chains.

Chombi

"O-ring" motorcycle chains are pre-lubed at the factory and the O or X rings are supposed to keep the lube in the roller and pin assemblies for the life of the chain.

Not quite. The sealing rings keep the lube in the pins and bushings, but not the rollers.

Chains last depending on engine type, power, driving style, maintenance etc. I'd say roughly about 10,000 kms.

Set of chain and front+rear sprocket (it only makes sense to change the whole set when changing) is around 150 euros (depending on strength, quality, length - so it depends on the motorcyle).

Cleaning and lubing is a religious question. It would be perfect to clean and lube every 500 kilometres.
It is OK to clean and lube every 1000 kms.
Most bikers I know lube chains about every 1000 kms, and clean them 2-3 times a year.

Only thing that can effectively, and conveniently prolong the life of a chain is an automatic chain lubrication system (like afore mentioned Scottoiler, but there are others). It works by constantly dripping a thin (watery and water solvable... is that the English word?) oil on the chain. Oil is thin enough to fall off the chain while riding, together with all the sand, dirt, mud, dust etc. That way chain is always lubed and cleaned during the ride. It costs around 100 euros and lasts for years and years. Can prolong chain life up to 7 times and saves hassle of cleaning and lubing the chain.


Chain has advantages over shaft drive, but cleanin/lubing/setting correct tension is a hassle.

I use to ride a dirt bike in the 70s and the lube I used then came in a spray can and it was very very sticky to it wouldn't be thrown off. Do they still use these lubes today?

I lube my motorcycle chains with 80/90 gear oil and wipe off the excess with a rag every 500 miles. This floats the dirty oil away and onto my rag. I never clean them. I got 25K miles out of my OEM Honda chain and it was still going strong when I changed it. I did so because I read that if you change it before it starts wearing (stretching is just pivot wear multiplied by the number of pivots) rapidly you can change your sprockets every other chain. My sprockets still looked fine. Oring/x-ring chains basically require one adjustment after about 1000 miles and then you never have to adjust them again until the seals fail. Once you have to adjust it again, you will adjust it every 500 miles until it wears your sprockets out. IMO the canned sticky lubes suck because you have to clean your chain regularly or the dirt they attract will cause premature failure. OTOH those old bikes didn't have sealed chains so they needed more lube. When I got on a trip I take a one ounce vial of oil, a little flux brush and a red shop rag rolled up into a ziplock bag that is half the size of a sandwich bag. It takes me all of 2 minutes to lube the chain. Shafts are do require less maintenance but when the do fail (and they will) the repairs are expensive and a way bigger PIA than changing out a chain and sprockets. Scottoilers made sense in the old days but sealed chains make them more or less obsolete.

Lawrence: Yes, sticky ones, in a spray containter are widely and mostly used.

rwortman: Scottoiler eliminates the need to clean and lube, you just refill the Scottoiler. That alone makes it worth wile for me. They still prolong life of chains, even the X / O ring ones. Manufacturer says up to 7 times - I'm not sure about that number, but the fact is that chain is always clean and lubed. Every second of its lifetime.

To each his own. I don't find 5 minutes every 500 miles to be a burden. That 7 times surely referred to non sealed chains. I got 25k out of my OEM o'ring chain with more to go and I know there is no way it would last 175K. I expect to get 40 or more out of the x'ring chain I have on it now and I surely don't think a Scottoiler would make the chain outlast the motorcycle. I do think it would be handy for touring since I wouldn't have to carry lube but the tiny package I bring and the couple of minutes it takes don't bother me. It gives me a chance to do a safety inspection of the bike while I am at it. BTW these comments only refer to my method of using gear oil. If those damned sticky lubes were the only other option I would get a Scottoiler tomorrow.

Anyhow.. Note: 2 kinds of bicycle chains .. older full bushing , wear surface is larger..
and bushing less chain , pretty much the derailleur chain, laterally more flexible.
Though, wear concentrates in a line on the roller inside edge.

There's no tensioner (like a derailer) on a motorbike so you have to watch for chain slackening and move the back axel like on a single speed bike.

Is there any sort of mechanical tensioning mechanism like a chain tug or do you just walk back the axle by hand?



There's not so much of a "when it stretches 1/8 of an inch or 3mm you've used x% of it's life) with bike chains, but when they get to the end of their life they suddenly stretch a large amount (before they snap, see below).

"Single speed" bicycle chains (SS/FG/IGH) do the same thing if cyclists would just get passed their anal retentive obsession with chain stretch and chain maintenance.


MNBC, Generally a motorcycle chain will stretch more rapidly when new and then settle down as opposed to a bicycle chain.

Actually if you properly tension a "single speed" bicycle chain it will also settle down and last just as long if not longer. The problem is that cyclists mistakenly replace perfectly good chains just as they're beginning to reach the "settled down" period simply because cycling part manufacturers have worked them up into a panicked chain voodoo frenzy.

Is there any sort of mechanical tensioning mechanism like a chain tug or do you just walk back the axle by hand?

There are various mechanisms, but the most common is a bolt bearing against an insert at the rear of the swingarm that is used to pull the axle rearward. The engine torque (up to 115ft-lbs on some production bikes) is trying to pull the axle forward, so it has to be a robust retaining device as well as an adjuster. Drag bikes are known to destroy their chain (actually axle, as described) adjusters on occasion.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7034/chainadj3pw1.jpg

KeS

(ok, the one in the picture *pushes*)

There are various mechanisms, but the most common is a bolt bearing against an insert at the rear of the swingarm that is used to pull the axle rearward. The engine torque (up to 115ft-lbs on some production bikes) is trying to pull the axle forward, so it has to be a robust retaining device as well as an adjuster. Drag bikes are known to destroy their chain (actually axle, as described) adjusters on occasion.

KeS

(ok, the one in the picture *pushes*)

Thanks. IMO, the lack of such mechanical tensioners on most bicycles is the source of all chain troubles and controversies. In my experience if you have a chain tug or similar tensioner that can keep the bicycle chain from skipping after the initial wear period then bicycle chains also wear-in/settle-down and can be continue being used for 3-4x as long even if dry/unlubricated. Other methods for extending the life of bicycle chains such as lubrication are futile...which is what causes all the controversy because no matter how much lubrication is used any bicycle design that doesn't include one of these is doomed to excessive and futile chain maintenance:
224398

However, the reason I asked you about the motorcycles is because I've been trying to figure out how to implement a similarly "robust adjustor" on this bike:
224401224402
Any ideas?

Stock belt drives have a practical limit of around 100 hp, although there are some aftermarket belts that can handle a lot more. Much of the stress comes from abrupt application of power. They generally last longer than chains if the owner isn't drag launching, and they don't require lubrication.

CVTs (i.e. scooters) use a V-shaped belt drive that's completely covered. The belt moves on a pair of wedge-shaped rollers which move in and out depending on speed, adjusting the gearing. These only last 2,000-8,000 miles. When I worked on Decent Random Chinese Brand(TM)* scooters, they'd always need replacing at around 4,500. Normally this involved me picking rubber bits out of the variator because the customer ignored maintenance.

*As opposed to Pot Metal Ordered From Catalog Brand(TM) which looked the same as what we sold, but never actually worked.

Stock belt drives have a practical limit of around 100 hp, although there are some aftermarket belts that can handle a lot more. Much of the stress comes from abrupt application of power. They generally last longer than chains if the owner isn't drag launching, and they don't require lubrication.


They're up to 150HP now. When the 2008 Buell 1125R was released, it was the most powerful OEM motor/belt drive combination, rated at 154HP, I believe. My 1125CR (cosmetically different model) dynoed at 134 RWHP on a 90 degree day, so that 154 crank is about right.

Most breaks are as a result of damage from a stone or similar item getting caught under the belt.

KeS

Thanks. IMO, the lack of such mechanical tensioners on most bicycles is the source of all chain troubles and controversies. In my experience if you have a chain tug or similar tensioner that can keep the bicycle chain from skipping after the initial wear period then bicycle chains also wear-in/settle-down and can be continue being used for 3-4x as long even if dry/unlubricated. Other methods for extending the life of bicycle chains such as lubrication are futile...which is what causes all the controversy because no matter how much lubrication is used any bicycle design that doesn't include one of these is doomed to excessive and futile chain maintenance:
224398

However, the reason I asked you about the motorcycles is because I've been trying to figure out how to implement a similarly "robust adjustor" on this bike:
Any ideas?

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=224398&d=1319519839

The one in the picture looks robust enough. Just add one more "ordinary" nut, so you can use the butterfly like one as a locknut.

Ofcourse, for it to work you need a frame that takes axle horizontaly, not the vertical type, like most modern frames are (you understand what I mean, sorry about poor English?).

One more thing:
On motorcycles, when chain starts needing tensioning, it is soon busted. After initial setup of new chain, I tension it once perhaps, than it is OK for a long time. Check it every few 1000 kms. It is usually OK. Once it needs tensioning every 500 - 1000 kms, it is finished, worn and starts "stretching" more and more quickly.

All the old single speed bicycles I had had some sort of chain tensioning mechanism (like the one in the picture). Oldest was my grandmothers from 1948. It is busted now for bearing where the pedals are is broken and there are no decent spare parts. Most other parts of that bike are still excellent. Fenders are like new, used on my current commuter. Chain hasn't been changed more often than every 10 or so years. She used to commute 10km for groceries and back until some 20 years ago.

Which is the more highly stressed chain, bicycle, under an athletic sprinter or hill climber, or a chain on a sports motorbike.
I cant work it out. Bike chains are much narrower and gear from big chainwheel to small sprocket.
Motorcycle chains are much wider and more massive and gear from a small sprocket at the engine to a large sprocket at the wheel.
What are the units for chain stress?

Which is the more highly stressed chain, bicycle, under an athletic sprinter or hill climber, or a chain on a sports motorbike.
I cant work it out. Bike chains are much narrower and gear from big chainwheel to small sprocket.
Motorcycle chains are much wider and more massive and gear from a small sprocket at the engine to a large sprocket at the wheel.
What are the units for chain stress?

Pound-force (in SAE).

Engine torque is normally expressed in ft-lbs (Chains I don't think care much about power, or how quickly the torque is being applied, just how much force it takes to mechanically destroy the chain). A powerful motorcycle might exert 100 ft-lbs of torque at the crankshaft (liter sport bike ~85 ft-lbs, superbike ~115 ft-lbs). This goes through a primary gear ratio and the transmission ratio - for a ZX-14 that's about 5:1 total for first gear, where most torque is transmitted. So you have about 500 ft-lbs at the output shaft. To convert that twisting force to the linear force on the chain, the equation is torque(t) = r x F, where r is the moment arm length and F is the force. Rearranging to F = t/r, and using an approximate value of 1.5" for r (the radius of the countershaft sprocket), I get 500 ft-lbs /.125ft = 4,000 lbs of force on the chain if I haven't screwed up units somewhere. About 2 tons at max torque in first gear, which on a ZX-14 you can probably get hooked up by about 50mph if you're an expert. Force at the tire is different because you have the front/rear sprocket final drive ratio, and then the leverage (not gear) ratio between the rear sprocket and the tire radius. It still amounts to several hundred pounds of thrust at the contact patch.

You can follow by example to calculate the force on a bike chain at the front chainwheel in a similar fashion. I doubt your sprinter is going to be come within an order of magnitude.

KeS

#31.. 'Any ideas?'

Chucky, its a vertical dropout.:bang: hire a framebuilder to make
and install a dropout you can adjust.
or start from scratch, new frame made around the new specification.

Backing into the torque numbers for a cyclist, I think I saw someone suggest a peak value of 1000 watts of output for a pro was reasonable. I'll take that, convert to 1.34 HP at 100rpm, and I get 70 ft-lbs of torque exerted at the crank. Assuming a 39T chainwheel, and calling that a radius of 3 inches, you get 70 ft-lbs/.25 ft = 280 lbs of force on the chain.

KeS

Chucky, its a vertical dropout.:bang: hire a framebuilder to make
and install a dropout you can adjust.
or start from scratch, new frame made around the new specification.

Or use the Sheldon Brown Short-Axle Quick-Release Method: http://sheldonbrown.com/singlespeed.html#vertical .
Now, manually walk the axle back by hand to tension it. If you really wanted a mechanical tensioner in there, you could engineer a device that uses the two threaded rack-mount holes on that dropout to hold a threaded bolt onto which you'd thread two nuts holding a long plate in between them, and the plate would push back on the quick-release to tension it. I don't see why that would be worth doing, though, since pulling the axle back by hand isn't that hard.