Classic & Vintage - Is it made in Italy?

Now that DEDA has moved production to Asia are there any manufacturers of bars/stems/posts NOT manufacturing in Aisa? After a broken crank arm I am very selective about where the gear I purchase is manufactured. Looking to replace bar/stem for next season and would prefer something "made in Italy"

Everything is pretty much going to Asia for manufacturing these days.
Unfortunately, it's the only way these days to keep the prices low enough and stay competitive for many brands. But with standard of living going up in those countries, things could change again to result in transfer of a lot of production to the so-called "third tier" Asian countries (Vietnam, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia.....etc..)
Thing is, quality had leapt forward tremenduously for products coming from Asia as computer design and production automation had brought production tolerances/QC tighter than they ever had been, So made in US/Europe doesn't neccessarily mean much better quality than something made in China, Taiwan, Korea....etc...

Chombi

Wasn't Campagnolo making a lot of their components in Romania?

Stella Azzura?
the company is from Milano, not sure where the components are sourced from.

Wasn't Campagnolo making a lot of their components in Romania?

Really? That's kind of sad. However, I did recently purchase a Campy Textran Light jacket at a discount house and it was indeed made in Romania.

If this was your crank arm, would you be looking for bars made in Asia?

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab69/gaucho510/IMG_3178.jpg

If this was your crank arm, would you be looking for bars made in Asia?

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab69/gaucho510/IMG_3178.jpg
Not familiar where some post 80's Campagnolo cranks have been produced, but I do know that they did them out of Italy eventually as evident with their lower priced cranks from the 90's (Centaur....etc?) Is that an Asian made Campy crank arm?
If it is, the final blame still rests on Campagnolo SpA...not Asians or who ever outside of Italy made them..., as they are ultimately responsible for all QA/QC for production of their products in Europe, Asia, or anywhere else. Anyway, this won't be the first time we saw Campy cranks cracking as their Italian made Super Record cranks were also known to do so at the spider/arm junctions once in a while......:rolleyes:

Chombi.

how does a crank break like that? bubble in the metal causing a weak point?

how does a crank break like that? bubble in the metal causing a weak point?

Crack propagating stress riser cause by physical damage (a nick, crack or gash on the material caused by impact or flaw in the production process) or void in the casting/forging. It would still take a lot of force and some time to make it crack all the way like that. I suspect the damage was mostly invisible till it catastrophically broke on the user.

Chombi

Wasn't Campagnolo making a lot of their components in Romania?

Some apparently - not necessarily "a lot."

My 11 speed Campy group came in boxes saying 'Made in Italy' on them. Hopefully they are referring to the contents.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx40/jan_nikolajsen/ss2.jpg

I think all of the Campy stuff in the eleven speed groups (Athena, Chorus, Record, Super Record) is still made in Italy. The stuff in the current ten speed groups (Centaur, Veloce) is now made in Taiwan. I noticed this on the QBP site, each part they carry has a country of origin listed.

Mavic has had a lot of stuff made in Romania of late, but also China, and still some things in France.

I just checked a few more items on QBP, the 3T items I checked are made in Taiwan, the Miche seatpost is still made in Italy.

to muddy the waters a little more (or rather to give a clear view of murky water) this "country of origin" label is sometimes more open to manipulation than you might think (or want).
I read (and need to find the piece so I can give this as reference, not just hear-say) that if a "complex" manufactured item like a bike has the frame cut, welded, threaded, blasted and even painted in Taiwan but "finished" in Italy (and this can be just applying decals and installing the components) the entire bike can be (and is) labeled "Made in Italy"...and that label is applied on the Taiwanese-built frame, of course.
Where did those decals and components originate? Doesn't matter. Only that they were applied to that frame in (for this example) Italy.
So I have read...

to muddy the waters a little more (or rather to give a clear view of murky water) this "country of origin" label is sometimes more open to manipulation than you might think (or want).
I read (and need to find the piece so I can give this as reference, not just hear-say) that if a "complex" manufactured item like a bike has the frame cut, welded, threaded, blasted and even painted in Taiwan but "finished" in Italy (and this can be just applying decals and installing the components) the entire bike can be (and is) labeled "Made in Italy"...and that label is applied on the Taiwanese-built frame, of course.
Where did those decals and components originate? Doesn't matter. Only that they were applied to that frame in (for this example) Italy.
So I have read...

True....one major Italian bike company, at least, is notorious for this, and most folks know by now what's going on. The truth is, most of this involves carbon fiber frames, and Asia is where most carbon fiber frames come from, and where most of the lightest, most advanced frames are manufactured.

well, after plowing through searches for EU and Italian COOL regulations, all I can say is take it all (including my post above) with a grain of salt...there are differences in law between the US and the EU, and some regulations have not been harmonized (yet) between all EU countries for all products. Plus the law can be outright violated or merely circumvented in some countries (does this apply to Italy? you decide) and over time. It's a moving target...

Some Asian-manufactured goods are of very high quality. I notice just about all bikes and bike parts made in Taiwan are very good. In fact, Taiwan seems to be the best place to make high quality large-production bikes and bike things.

Times change. Taiwan bikes and bike things used to be crap. Before that, it was the Japanese stuff that wasn't very good, but they turned things around in the 70's, which turned our heads and made us say WOW.

I expect Korea to be the next powerhouse of a manufacturing country. Right now, they make some pretty good electronics and cars. Samsung is a highly respected brand among young American people.

to muddy the waters a little more (or rather to give a clear view of murky water) this "country of origin" label is sometimes more open to manipulation than you might think (or want).
I read (and need to find the piece so I can give this as reference, not just hear-say) that if a "complex" manufactured item like a bike has the frame cut, welded, threaded, blasted and even painted in Taiwan but "finished" in Italy (and this can be just applying decals and installing the components) the entire bike can be (and is) labeled "Made in Italy"...and that label is applied on the Taiwanese-built frame, of course.
Where did those decals and components originate? Doesn't matter. Only that they were applied to that frame in (for this example) Italy.
So I have read...An example...last year this time, I was researching the carbon frame bike I wanted to celebrate my retirement from the Army and Army National Guard. One of the candidates was the Bianchi Infinito. The bike retailed for $3400 with 6700 Ultegra, or $4400 with Athena, with all other parts identical. I checked around, and new Ultegra and Athena groupsets were very close in price, with Athena typically $50-100 more. The price difference was apparently due to the Athena bikes being shipped to Italy for assembly, while the Ultegra bikes were assembled in Taiwan.

Yes, it has to do with the amount of value created. If some percentage (is it 60%?) of the value of the product is created in Italy, then it says made in Italy. I don't know who determines value, but I gather there are standard rules. You can't just claim that 60% of the value is from putting something in a crate, for example.

It's a touchy subject. And a messy one.

On one hand, there is no doubt that any of the countries mentioned above can produce outstanding quality products. None in my mind.

As another poster mentioned, it comes down to QA policies of the company. Antique Chinese furniture we see in museums was made to the stellar level it was because that level of quality and pride of workmanship was valued.

Also, the electronics example is a good one because it really gets muddy. If I had the money for an audiophile quality amplifier built locally with Made In Canada engraved on it, there is no doubt in my mind the componentry used is from all over the world. In fact the best of each component would indeed come from the expertise that is global and rightly so.

Where it gets touchy is when a company chooses to close manufacturing in one country and create unemployment for the sake of the bottom line. I understand that's not a very capitalist view (and I'm giving the match to start the flaming). There are a few issues for me - pride, authenticity, history - that are at play. Perhaps some would call those weaknesses or character flaws, but it's personal when a company closes a factory and devastates the primary, secondary, and tertiary industries of the very people who made the brand what it was. I'm not saying that is the case here, but it is elsewhere.

Okay, end of rant. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Hmm. My family is from Taiwan, and my dad and little sister live there. I've been many times and been given tours of some of the factories there. They take great pride in their history of steel-making, and consider themselves (correctly or otherwise) the world experts on the subject. I wish I could take a picture of all their faces after hearing that other people think it's unreliable junk! Some of you may have images of sweatshops with semi-slave labour pushing out products that they don't care about or understand, but my experience has been just the opposite. Plus, if you looks around many high end STEEL frames are being made in Taiwan, and believe me they know what they're making. I myself want to keep a bike authentic, whether it's French or Italian or Japanese when I'm restoring it, but it doesn't have much to do with quality control - much more with history and aesthetics.

Hmm. My family is from Taiwan, and my dad and little sister live there. I've been many times and been given tours of some of the factories there. They take great pride in their history of steel-making, and consider themselves (correctly or otherwise) the world experts on the subject. I wish I could take a picture of all their faces after hearing that other people think it's unreliable junk! Some of you may have images of sweatshops with semi-slave labour pushing out products that they don't care about or understand, but my experience has been just the opposite. Plus, if you looks around many high end STEEL frames are being made in Taiwan, and believe me they know what they're making. I myself want to keep a bike authentic, whether it's French or Italian or Japanese when I'm restoring it, but it doesn't have much to do with quality control - much more with history and aesthetics.

Like I said in an earlier post, on a mass produced scale anyway, the lightest, most advanced carbon fiber bicycle frames are made in Asia, for the most part Taiwan, and that's the leading edge of the bicycle industry. They're excellent at what they're doing, obviously.

They take great pride in their history of steel-making, and consider themselves (correctly or otherwise) the world experts on the subject. I wish I could take a picture of all their faces after hearing that other people think it's unreliable junk!

Again, no doubt in my mind. I remember reading an article in a bike magazine in the late 80s of a factory tour in Taiwan. They said they were fantastic!

the reason why it costs less to produce there is that they're more poor and have less rights.

Do you really trust Italian engineering?

http://www.traveljournals.net/pictures/l/13/136828-leaning-tower-of-pisa-pisa-italy.jpg

the reason why it cost less to produce there is that they're more poor, for the moment.

I guess that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that I can never afford to buy anything when I'm there and I always feel under-dressed for everything. Anyway I realize now that my post probably came off as defensive. I can understand concerns with products coming out of China because I DON'T think they have the best QC there yet, and the "sweat-shop" images are in some cases probably true. My reaction was lumping all of "Asia" together, because it's a big place filled with a bunch of very different countries.

Do you really trust Italian engineering?

http://www.traveljournals.net/pictures/l/13/136828-leaning-tower-of-pisa-pisa-italy.jpg

Sure - it may look funny, but it shifts better that way. ;)

I regularly ride three steel framed bikes that were made in Taiwan. Surly LHT (comes in a box with a label that says "made in Taiwan P.R.O.C." I've always been curious about that, because I thought Taiwan was NOT part of the PROC? Please educate me on that. The other two are Jamis bikes, a mountain bike of Reynolds 853 and a touring bike of Reynolds 631, both made in the Kinesis factory in Taiwan. Top quality stuff.

What we find in our shop is that bikes that retail for anything much less than about $1200 come in boxes that say made in China, anything much above that price point generally says made in Taiwan. That's a sliding scale, too; three and a half years ago, when I opened the shop, the separating price point between China and Taiwan seemed to be about $800-$900 retail and below, and $800-$900 retail and above.

I guess that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that I can never afford to buy anything when I'm there and I always feel under-dressed for everything. Anyway I realize now that my post probably came off as defensive. I can understand concerns with products coming out of China because I DON'T think they have the best QC there yet, and the "sweat-shop" images are in some cases probably true. My reaction was lumping all of "Asia" together, because it's a big place filled with a bunch of very different countries.

almost everything sewing-related, fabric-related, etc... a lot of the actual, material, production has been relocated to asia decades ago. things are changing. one would think it is about time that they wear what they produce instead of exporting all of it. it's beginning to happen, as they grow richer and have more sophisticated needs.

take specialized's "DESIGNED IN THE USA" sticker, or apple's "DESIGNED IN CALIFORNIA" but assembled in taiwan.....
we have been "making our money" on telling them what to do and how to do it, for our taste and fashion. but is it going to stay the same for long ?

this lovely technium i'm riding is one of the last mass-produced bikes for the american mass-market made in the USA. it was a nice bike with a good price, but its production got canceled in the early 1990es... presumingly because asian production made more $$$

Do you really trust Italian engineering?

http://www.traveljournals.net/pictures/l/13/136828-leaning-tower-of-pisa-pisa-italy.jpg
C'mon,...they did try to "correct" it during construction it by building the upper floors away from the direction of lean.......really,.....like no one would notice??......:p:rolleyes:

Chombi

Shamelessly made in Taiwan:

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab69/gaucho510/Park%20Pre%20Before/IMG_2066.jpg

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab69/gaucho510/IMG_2881.jpg

[QUOTE=well biked;13299816]I regularly ride three steel framed bikes that were made in Taiwan. Surly LHT (comes in a box with a label that says "made in Taiwan P.R.O.C." I've always been curious about that, because I thought Taiwan was NOT part of the PROC? Please educate me on that. The other two are Jamis bikes, a mountain bike of Reynolds 853 and a touring bike of Reynolds 631, both made in the Kinesis factory in Taiwan. Top quality stuff.

The R.O.C. stands for Republic of China, because when Chang Kai Shek was losing to the Communists he fled with the remainder of his army to Taiwan and set up shop there. The Taiwanese always believed they were the "true" government of China, and they were dismayed when the rest of the world recognized Communist China instead. Taiwan is still not recognized as a legitimate country by most, even though it's democratic. That's why when you see them at the Olympics they have to go under the name "Chinese Taipei". Long story short, anyway.

devinfan, there's a big bike culture in Taipei, too, right? I'd love to visit that city. I occasionally follow http://fixedgeargirltaiwan.blogspot.com/ and it's a lot of fun.

I have a Surly Cross Check, made in Taiwan. It's well made.

And as for quality control in mainland China, you get what you pay for. Apple products are made there to Apple's standards. Impeccable.

People in Taipei are crazy for bikes, partly because the streets are narrow and parking is IN-SANE. University students have picked it up, much like they have here in the West and for the same reasons. What I'm noticing more now is vintage, restored original bikes in Taiwan as opposed to just fixed gears. You're dead on about saying you get what you pay for. I guess it's my fault for shopping at the Dollar Store!

If this was your crank arm, would you be looking for bars made in Asia?

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab69/gaucho510/IMG_3178.jpg

On the cranks arm. It shows not really well but evident closer to the pedal hole that the arm had considerable toe strap "polishing", I have even seen where a guys shoes dug a section away. The "polishing" is the accelerant of the failure. This was explained to me by a metallurgist friend long ago, and I do not have the technical memory to restate it completely. The alloy choice by Campagnolo did play a part, but this are most likely would not have failed without the "polishing".

One might have to go to Nitto, and pay the Japanese exchange rates pricing to get more QC now.

Jobst Brandt broke quite a few Campy cranks. He said there was a design flaw in them. But he's one of very few people capable of doing that.

On the cranks arm. It shows not really well but evident closer to the pedal hole that the arm had considerable toe strap "polishing", I have even seen where a guys shoes dug a section away. The "polishing" is the accelerant of the failure. This was explained to me by a metallurgist friend long ago, and I do not have the technical memory to restate it completely. The alloy choice by Campagnolo did play a part, but this are most likely would not have failed without the "polishing".

One might have to go to Nitto, and pay the Japanese exchange rates pricing to get more QC now.
I've read somehwere that Stronglight took the lessons from Campagnolo's cracking problems with their SR cranks and that they designed their 106 and 107 cranks using "softer" aluminum alloys(??), plus took great care to radius all corners sufficiently on the crank arms as to not develop any stress risers. I think it worked as I haven't heard of 106 or 107s cracking. Ironically it was the much beefier looking Mavic first series cranks (The fluted non-starfish design) that did have problems with cracking at the spider and crank junctions, just like the Campagnolos. It's interesting to note that the early Mavic cranks did have very angular profiles and edges. even the flutes on the arms have sharp angles.

Chombi

If this was your crank arm, would you be looking for bars made in Asia?

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab69/gaucho510/IMG_3178.jpg

Any crank arm can break, for various reasons. Lots and lots of brands' vintage arms broke on occasion. Damon Rinard's website has a whole section devoted to broken crank arms of all sorts of brands.

Any aluminum crank arm can have a void in the forging, though it is quite rare in a high-quality arm.

If you look at the fracture faces on that particular crank, you will notice dark areas and lighter-colored areas. The dark areas were cracked for a long time, and eventually the part failed catastrophically, causing the light-colored areas.

It is very unusual for one of those arms to break mid-arm like that. They almost always break just above the pedal eye (in the thinnest cross-section, not surprisingly).

I would suspect that a major impact (a significant pedal strike, perhaps, or worse) to that crank arm occurred a long time ago, beginning the slow path to a complete failure. Or a void perhaps (less likely, though), hard to tell from that one picture.

Jobst Brandt broke quite a few Campy cranks. He said there was a design flaw in them. But he's one of very few people capable of doing that.

Of saying stuff that is complete BS? Yes, I would agree!

I've read somehwere that Stronglight took the lessons from Campagnolo's cracking problems with their SR cranks and that they designed their 106 and 107 cranks using "softer" aluminum alloys(??), plus took great care to radius all corners sufficiently on the crank arms as to not develop any stress risers. I think it worked as I haven't heard of 106 or 107s cracking. Ironically it was the much beefier looking Mavic first series cranks (The fluted non-starfish design) that did have problems with cracking at the spider and crank junctions, just like the Campagnolos. It's interesting to note that the early Mavic cranks did have very angular profiles and edges. even the flutes on the arms have sharp angles.

Chombi

That is likely very true about Stronglight. Their other aluminum cranks (prior to the 106s/107s), going back all the way to the 1930s, seemed to have been pretty durable designs, so they already had a lot of crank arm design know-how (in France it's called ' Le know-how ' (seriously, just like ' Le weekend ')). :thumb:

devinfan, there's a big bike culture in Taipei, too, right? I'd love to visit that city. I occasionally follow http://fixedgeargirltaiwan.blogspot.com/ and it's a lot of fun.

I have a Surly Cross Check, made in Taiwan. It's well made.

And as for quality control in mainland China, you get what you pay for. Apple products are made there to Apple's standards. Impeccable.

As long as you don't mind thinking about how many workers jumped to their deaths at their factory, I guess that's just fine.