Living Car Free - Another recession on its way !

I read the threads about living simple and car-free.
Has anyone noticed how the ecomonic issues doesn't affect them as much as others due to your lifestyle decisions ?
I use to be in the automotive industry where my co-workers all bought big expensive homes and cars , most of them have had foreclosures and repos. I choose an older cheaper area to live and doing fine.
At one plant I use to work at people would comment about the expense of my bike and turn around and lease a car for more then that a month.
At what point will society stop showboating and re-learn values ?

I still worry about the economy. Sure, I can live on less money than I used to be able to, but I don't want to. I also worry about losing my job. No income really doesn't work for anybody.

At one plant I use to work at people would comment about the expense of my bike and turn around and lease a car for more then that a month.


I got that too from a guy who spent much more on his big screen tv.

If you lose your job, it doesn't matter if you live cheaply. Having no income is a disaster no matter how you look at it.

Living below your means and planning ahead goes a long ways if you do lose your job. I currently have enough in savings to cover my basic bills and living costs for over a year and probably closer to two years. No mortgage, no car payments and no credit card payments. And after this latest round of BS from Bank of America over card fees I may go back to an all cash lifestyle.

Aaron :)

I keep hearing about another recession, uh when did the last one end?

If you lose your job, it doesn't matter if you live cheaply. Having no income is a disaster no matter how you look at it.

Yes, but if you live below your means in the good times, then you likely have a cushion for the bad times.

I keep hearing about another recession, uh when did the last one end?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession
Excerpt:

The late-2000s recession, sometimes referred to as the Great Recession[1] or Lesser Depression,[2] is a severe ongoing global economic problem that began in December 2007 and took a particularly sharp downward turn in September 2008. The Great Recession has affected the entire world economy, with higher detriment in some countries than others. It is a global recession characterized by various systemic imbalances and was sparked by the outbreak of the late-2000s financial crisis.

There are two senses of the word "recession": a less precise sense, referring broadly to "a period of reduced economic activity",[3] and the scientific sense used most often in economics, which is defined operationally, referring specifically to the contraction phase of a business cycle, with two or more consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth. By the economic-science definition of the word "recession", the Great Recession ended in the U.S. in June or July 2009.[4][5] However, in the broader, layperson sense of the word, many people use the term to refer to the ongoing hardship (in the same way that the term "Great Depression" is also popularly used).[6] In the U.S., for example, persistent high unemployment remains, along with low consumer confidence, the continuing decline in home values and increase in foreclosures and personal bankruptcies, an escalating federal debt crisis, inflation, and rising gas and food prices. In fact, a 2011 poll found that more than half of all Americans think the U.S. is still in recession or even depression, despite official data that shows a historically modest recovery.[7]

The problem with arguments about whether we are in recession or not is that the macroeconomic measurements are meaningful only when applied to the economy as a whole, and tell one very little about local circumstances. So if the economy is growing, but the whole of that growth takes place in California, for example - or if all the wealth created by that growth is appropriated by the richest 400 people - then the rest of our economies can be in recession even if, technically, the national economy is not.

We are in for a long period of low or zero growth. But for most people, that doesn't mean much change. Median incomes in the US have changed remarkably little during the past thirty years, despite the economy having grown substantially. It would appear, pace JFK, that a rising tide does not lift all boats.

The problem with arguments about whether we are in recession or not is that the macroeconomic measurements are meaningful only when applied to the economy as a whole, and tell one very little about local circumstances. So if the economy is growing, but the whole of that growth takes place in California, for example - or if all the wealth created by that growth is appropriated by the richest 400 people - then the rest of our economies can be in recession even if, technically, the national economy is not.

We are in for a long period of low or zero growth. But for most people, that doesn't mean much change. Median incomes in the US have changed remarkably little during the past thirty years, despite the economy having grown substantially. It would appear, pace JFK, that a rising tide does not lift all boats.
You're right and that's the basic premise of the wikipedia article above. Something that isn't really covered much is that this is a global phenomena, not just the U.S. as we get the impression. Europe is really having problems. Personally I don't really feel the effects of the recession, regardless of how it's defined. However, I can see the problems if we don't change our ways.

I think we already entered a recession.

I didn't know until almost a year after the great recession started and ended. The government never reveals the date a recession started but only months after it ends. Telling the public the date a recession starts makes it worse so we're never informed. Don't be surprised if they say a year from now we entered a recession in October 2011

I'm carfree and living simply, and my job doesn't seem to be threatened. But I still feel a lot of stress from the recession.

My son and his family were foreclosed and moved in with me. for one thing. It tears me up to see my son blaming himself for what happened. I tell him over and over that he has done everything humanly possible to find work and get back on his feet, but he can't seem to stop blaming himself when the only jobs he can find are temporary and low paying.

I also feel anxiety about the global situation. I always try to stay optimistic, but there are times when I start thinking that this whole thing is just the start of a long slide into a new dark ages. I don't really believe that, but sometimes I have those thoughts.

One salvation is bikes' A good bike ride does more than anything else to get me back on my feet again emotionally.

This thread points up the importance of exercise in maintaining a healthy mind. If you sleep,drive, work, drive, watch TV, sleep, your mental health will eventually be degraded whatever the state of the world economy.

I also feel anxiety about the global situation. I always try to stay optimistic, but there are times when I start thinking that this whole thing is just the start of a long slide into a new dark ages. I don't really believe that, but sometimes I have those thoughts.


Much depends on one's perspective. Viewed from Korea or South East Asia, things must look a lot less bleak. But we in the West are having to come to terms with the fact that for many years we have maintained our standard of living by not paying the going rate for what we consume. Slavery, mercantilism, Empire, economic imperialism have all been mechanisms through which we get goods and commodities without paying the true cost of their production. That is ending and we will have to adjust to our incomes falling relative to the rest of the world.

One salvation is bikes' A good bike ride does more than anything else to get me back on my feet again emotionally.

Yes, cycling is good for the mental health. Cheap, too.

At one plant I use to work at people would comment about the expense of my bike and turn around and lease a car for more then that a month.


Heh. All of my coworkers have decided that anything more than $200 for a bicycle is "way too much money". I don't even know where to find a $200 bike. I suppose at Walmart, but I haven't stepped foot in one of those hellholes in over 6 years, and don't intend to start now.

They all think I'm out of my mind because my next bike will be about $1000. Yet a few of them had no qualms about plonking down $5000 for a crappy 3D TV last year. I don't get it. I really don't.

I read the threads about living simple and car-free.
Has anyone noticed how the ecomonic issues doesn't affect them as much as others due to your lifestyle decisions ?
I've noticed.
http://artsytime.com/homeless-people-with-wifi/

They all think I'm out of my mind because my next bike will be about $1000. Yet a few of them had no qualms about plonking down $5000 for a crappy 3D TV last year. I don't get it. I really don't.

They live in a culture in which a TV is seen as a necessary part of a fulfilling lifestyle, and having a better TV makes them feel they aren't missing out. But they don't see a bicycle as a source of any benefit, just as a piece of play equipment that they might use a few times a year at best. It would not occur to most people to consider a bicycle as something that facilitates a more rewarding lifestyle...

Yes, but if you live below your means in the good times, then you likely have a cushion for the bad times.

Fair enough.

Heh...
They all think...I don't get it. I really don't.
Sure you "get it."
You know all about what "they" think; about you and themselves. Must be nice to be omniscient.

I'll add, it doesn't cease to amaze me all these living on the margin people walking around with iphones-type rigs and expensive services packages... in this economy I mean, really, a job that pays the rent/mortgage and buys a few beers, but they pay a small fortune for maintaining a gadget that can't even make a decent telephone call. Talk about brainwashing.

I think it's all about what you're used to. I haven't bought a bike yet, but our money has typically been spent on flying to see friends and family in Europe and East Asia. We just prioritize our spending in different areas. We don't buy the same things as our friends.

We've found the recession has been an opportunity as we haven't experienced job loss and have a little money saved up.

However, I do understand some of the things that come up. How many people have student loans, medical bills and things that just didn't go as planned. We had money saved up when our second child was born and ended up in the nicu. Savings were gone so fast and soon we were taking out a line of credit. It took a couple of years to get out of that one and we didn't have any job losses to contend with.

I've been carfree for 22 out of the past 27 years and made an average of $85k a year. I live simply amd I actively support many charities and "green" advocacy groups. Looking at the USA today, I would bet that we are most similar to Mexico in the next 20 years. We have seeded or own wealth and savings to two political parties that have given it to the elite class, which has made us all join the poverty class. Politics has impoverished us all in order to wealthen the few. We have been hoodwinked as though by slight of hand.......

We are in for a long period of low or zero growth. But for most people, that doesn't mean much change. Median incomes in the US have changed remarkably little during the past thirty years, despite the economy having grown substantially. It would appear, pace JFK, that a rising tide does not lift all boats.

It's clear that zero growth is upon us. What's less clear is how we really have to learn to deal with "zero growth".. It's a complex issue, one that affects our personal lifestyles and the economy as a whole.

But isn't it clear that an economy can't continue to grow forever? We can't continue to insist on 4, 5, 6 percent growth every year.

What we really need to do as an economy is learn to smooth the hardship bumps a little by spending more on things like unemployment insurance and help for the jobless.

Personally, we need to realize that periods of unemployment or other hardship can also be a time of great personal growth... After all, being unemployed can give us the time we didn't have before to learn and do new things.... as long as we have something to eat while we are doing this.

Personally, we need to realize that periods of unemployment or other hardship can also be a time of great personal growth... After all, being unemployed can give us the time we didn't have before to learn and do new things.... as long as we have something to eat while we are doing this.

Hmm. As long as we have something to eat. Lots of people won't have enough to eat if policymakers don't grasp the new reality, and continue to imagine that they can restore growth by cutting public spending. Sorry, this thread is becoming a candidate for P&R, but I'm afraid a great many people are going to be not just car-free, but home-free and potentially food-free. Which in countries like mine, and yours, seems to me to be a disgrace.

Sure you "get it."
You know all about what "they" think; about you and themselves. Must be nice to be omniscient.

I know because they've told me so, right to my face. I can't go a week without being told that I'm either crazy or have a death wish for commuting to work (19 miles each way).

Or like last week, when it started pouring 20 minutes after I left the office on Thursday, they started cracking jokes and laughing at me the next day when I came in. Or 2 weeks ago when someone commented that they don't understand how I couldn't afford a car with my job (they assumed since I was cycling that I didn't own a car, because it didn't even occur to them that someone would voluntarily bike to work).

Trust me, I'm not omniscient. These opinions are gladly proffered to me, frequently.

The latest great depression has affected me only because I don't have as many job opportunities. I'd like to switch to a full time position but in my small town there aren't many driving jobs unless one has a Class A commercial driver license. I've just got a B and don't have six-thousand dollars to spare to do the training. If I did I'd go for it. Trucking is a job that will always need people. Since I'm single it wouldn't be a big problem for me to be away from home twenty-one days per month. For people with children it is difficult for them to do it. Thirty-five thousand to one-hundred-thousand dollars per year is a decent living behind the wheel for someone willing to live on the road in a truck with living space the size of a large closet.

My bills are about the same. My rent went up a year ago. Since I stopped using the clothes dryer my electric bill is half of what it was. Food is costing a bit more and gasoline is about level in price. I use about three gallons per month when I use my motorized bicycle.

I could live very nicely on $25,000 per year. If I wanted to save for retirement and pay for health insurance then it wouldn't be enough. If I owned a car I'd need plenty more money per year. Being debt free is great with the exception that the government gives away great tax deductions for people to buy houses and cars and I can't utilize them because I don't want to own a house or car. I don't want to go into debt making such a purchase just to get a tax credit.

T I'd like to switch to a full time position but in my small town there aren't many driving jobs unless one has a Class A commercial driver license. I've just got a B and don't have six-thousand dollars to spare to do the training..

Couldn't you get a loan for the training? It sounds like if you get a better job with that training, you would be able to pay back the loan in short order.

Just a thought.

Being debt free is great with the exception that the government gives away great tax deductions for people to buy houses and cars and I can't utilize them because I don't want to own a house or car. I don't want to go into debt making such a purchase just to get a tax credit.
What great tax deduction for owning a car or for going in to debt to purchase a car?

What great tax deduction for owning a car or for going in to debt to purchase a car?

And the mortgage deduction...

Aaron :)

And the mortgage deduction...

Aaron :)

Mortgage deduction for car ownership? Huh?

Mortgage deduction for car ownership? Huh?

There have been a number of tax credits for electric vehicles, and there was of course the Cash for Clunkers program of tax credits for new car buyers.

I'm not aware of any credits or deductions currently in effect on federal taxes. I'm also not aware that there was ever a deduction for auto loan interest payments similar to the deduction for interest n home mortgages.

Mortgage deduction for car ownership? Huh?

Well, if you have to live in your car and you're making payments on it, why shouldn't you get a tax deduction? It only makes sense. :D

I'm not aware of any credits or deductions currently in effect on federal taxes. I'm also not aware that there was ever a deduction for auto loan interest payments similar to the deduction for interest n home mortgages.
Interest payments for car loans USED to be an allowable deduction on the 1040 Schedule A. As was the sales tax. Emphasis is on the past tense, hasn't been the case for a decade or so. But why should inconvenient facts get in the way of the previous LCF ranter (post #25) on an anti motorist roll?

I live in Canada, we didn't get hit as hard; my spending habits went unaffected.

I read once the seceret to being rich isn't making more money, it's maximizing the difference between what you make and what you spend.

This is an interesting article I came across the other day. I recently moved into a place that had a slightly higher rent, and I've been thinking about how I used to live 10 years ago, when I was broke.

http://www.raptitude.com/2010/07/your-lifestyle-has-already-been-designed/

http://www.raptitude.com/2010/07/your-lifestyle-has-already-been-designed/

Loved the article. I can so relate. Along with rising income has come carefree spending that I could do without. Food for thought, for sure.

Loved the article. I can so relate. Along with rising income has come carefree spending that I could do without. Food for thought, for sure.

Yeah... I also looked at some of his other posts. Pretty impressive bunch of work.

It's clear that zero growth is upon us. What's less clear is how we really have to learn to deal with "zero growth".. It's a complex issue, one that affects our personal lifestyles and the economy as a whole.

But isn't it clear that an economy can't continue to grow forever? We can't continue to insist on 4, 5, 6 percent growth every year.

I have no doubt we will see the 4, 5 or 6 percent growth again. Once we change political parties and leadership in 2012, we'll see massive deregulation again for Wall Street, bankers and corporate America. Then you'll see the money flowing back into market creating worthless stocks and paper. It was dot.com stock in the 90's and real estate in the 2010. Just make sure you stay out of the market when this happens or you'll lose 20-30% of your portfolio after the crash.

And after this latest round of BS from Bank of America over card fees I may go back to an all cash lifestyle.

Aaron :)

I think you are talking about the $5 per month if you use your debit card, correct? They only charge you IF you use your debit for purchases and it looks like all major banks will start this or something like it in the near future. Just use your ATM to withdraw your cash so you don't get dinged. It's better than keeping lot's of cash in the house.

This thread points up the importance of exercise in maintaining a healthy mind. If you sleep,drive, work, drive, watch TV, sleep, your mental health will eventually be degraded whatever the state of the world economy.

+1

Once we change political parties and leadership in 2012, we'll see massive deregulation again for Wall Street, bankers and corporate America.

Yep, this is a long-term trend, 40 years on the latest tack and many more since the 14th Amendment and Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad. The corporations see their current problems as only a course correction, not the major change that we percieve. That trader who came out recently, saying that their job was to make money whether the economy was going up or down pegged it. Corporate citizens don't care about the economy or the government, just how they can make money off the current situation, whatever it is.

I think you are talking about the $5 per month if you use your debit card, correct? They only charge you IF you use your debit for purchases and it looks like all major banks will start this or something like it in the near future. Just use your ATM to withdraw your cash so you don't get dinged. It's better than keeping lot's of cash in the house.

That is fine and dandy if there happens to be an ATM in your area...and the banks don't start to look at that as a revenue source. They have been trying to force us to a cashless society. It isn't going to work for this curmudgeon. I have no problem keeping cash around. The problem is too many businesses are now set up that if the power goes out they can't sell a damn thing, and they are attempting to discourage cash purchases.

The banks are getting as bad as the airlines for tagging on fees. I have already ditched one large national bank. I currently use a small regional bank and a credit union. So far both have been reasonable on their fees. But as the banks continue to consolidate they will lobby and do what they want and it won't be in the best interest of the consumer.

Aaron :)

I think you are talking about the $5 per month if you use your debit card, correct? They only charge you IF you use your debit for purchases and it looks like all major banks will start this or something like it in the near future. Just use your ATM to withdraw your cash so you don't get dinged. It's better than keeping lot's of cash in the house.

Where is the outrage? The banks engineered this whole crisis, and they will come out making even more money than they did before. BoA stupidly bought Countrywide because they thought they could milk money out of bad debt. They were wrong, and now they want a price gouging scheme to force their customers to bail out their shareholders.

Consumers and the middle class are royally getting screwed in this country. The middle class is the nouveau poor. We are being required to spend our dwindling cash to ensure that the wealthy investors continue to make money hand over fist.

If I wasn't working so hard to support myself and my family, I for sure would be camped out in a tent somewhere in Lower Manhattan.

If I wasn't working so hard to support myself and my family, I for sure would be camped out in a tent somewhere in Lower Manhattan.

You are in luck.

Occupy Michigan - LANSING

Time: Saturday, October 15 @ 10:00am

Location: Capital Steps

Facebook Event: (https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=196360057103242)

You are in luck.

Occupy Michigan - LANSING

Time: Saturday, October 15 @ 10:00am

Location: Capital Steps

Facebook Event: (https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=196360057103242)

Thanks! I got a couple e-mails about this since my post. I will be there! It will be the fifth protest this year that I have attended on the Capitol steps. Fortunately they're only a 10 minute ride from my house.

Couldn't you get a loan for the training? It sounds like if you get a better job with that training, you would be able to pay back the loan in short order.

Just a thought.

There's no state in this union that requires one to go to a "trucking school",all he';d actually have to do is go get the manuals (free),and then go take the written test to get a learner's permit (spoeaking specifically in VA here,there may be slight variances in other states),once he has a valid learner's permit,companies like CR England will hire him and give him on-the-job training (heck,CR E. will hire him with a class D license and train him,put him to work,and hold out a modest amount of his pay each week to reimburse the training he received....I use them for eg because a close relative went with them last year,the rest comes from having been a long haul driver from '95 until '07,then local gigs until put out of work perminently in '08).....food for thought,Brother: If you really want to drive long haul in a class A truck,there's ways to do it,especially already having your foot in the door (class B in hand,meaning recent experience,if you have a decent driving record).

....food for thought,Brother: If you really want to drive long haul in a class A truck,there's ways to do it,especially already having your foot in the door (class B in hand,meaning recent experience,if you have a decent driving record).

England won't allow pets in their trucks nor will Swift. I've heard Werner won't pay what they claim. Watkins Shepard is local but they require a $900 pet deposit. Overall I'd need plenty of money to pay my rent and pay someone to watch my dog for three to four months during my initial training for any company. Sure I could get a learners permit but I don't know anybody with a truck and trailer to teach me the driving part. I'm considering taking the tanker test and maybe even the hazardous materials test (though that portion costs $50 and requires finger prints). Having those out of the way would smooth the road a bit.

If I had the money to move to San Diego I could apply for a city bus driver job that pays $23 per hour with full benefits. Motor Coach jobs (tour buses) aren't as plentiful as I had hoped. I searched Monster.com and there were very few. All wanted a minimum of two years experience. I always find that interesting how almost all companies want people with years of experience. Driving a tour bus in Los Angeles looked interesting but there aren't any openings. When I lived in Los Angeles I worked at Universal City and there were numerous motor coaches pulling up every day.

Shuttle bus drivers at LAX airport earn a little over $10 per hour. I don't feel it would be worth the effort to move twenty-four-hundred miles to earn less per hour just to get more hours. I'd rather become a bar tender again.

I didn't know you'd be needing to bring your pet (friend :) ) when I posted,sorry...yeah,that complicates things a bit. I don't blame you one bit on not moving (any distance,really) to get more hours,LOL,the goal should be more per hour at the same,or less hours ideally. Hmmm....yeah,doesn't seem like any easy way to deal with your furry friend while training,if you don't have a relative/friend you could trust,and if you're like me,you don't want to leave them with just anyone. I feel your squeeze,my friend...

The latest great depression has affected me only because I don't have as many job opportunities. I'd like to switch to a full time position but in my small town there aren't many driving jobs unless one has a Class A commercial driver license. I've just got a B and don't have six-thousand dollars to spare to do the training. If I did I'd go for it. Trucking is a job that will always need people. Since I'm single it wouldn't be a big problem for me to be away from home twenty-one days per month. For people with children it is difficult for them to do it. Thirty-five thousand to one-hundred-thousand dollars per year is a decent living behind the wheel for someone willing to live on the road in a truck with living space the size of a large closet.

My bills are about the same. My rent went up a year ago. Since I stopped using the clothes dryer my electric bill is half of what it was. Food is costing a bit more and gasoline is about level in price. I use about three gallons per month when I use my motorized bicycle.

I could live very nicely on $25,000 per year. If I wanted to save for retirement and pay for health insurance then it wouldn't be enough. If I owned a car I'd need plenty more money per year. Being debt free is great with the exception that the government gives away great tax deductions for people to buy houses and cars and I can't utilize them because I don't want to own a house or car. I don't want to go into debt making such a purchase just to get a tax credit.

I always thought about trucking. Drivers are always needed. I was considering going to school for that and I sought out truckers to talk to them about their experiences of being a driver.

Some of the truckers loved their jobs and would do nothing else. Others were tolerating thier jobs and clearly were only driving to support families etc. One guy said the driving has burned him out and he would rather have a job washing dishes.

Others told about hidden costs of trucking that they don't tell you about in training. Such as speed traps and other law enforcement issues dealing with weight and such. Also there was aggravations dealing with waiting around at your drop point to unload the truck.

All in all, I think I could be a decent trucker because I am a good driver. But I hate driving all of the time. A perfect schedule for me would be to drive for a month, and then take a month off. But the trucking companies wouldn't go for that. They want you to drive until you drop so they can drain all of the profit out of you that they can get.

I always thought it would be neat to be a truckdriver and travel with a decent bike [stashed somewhere in the cab or behind it]. But from traveling and living in a van for a few years [used to be a deadhead] and living at truck stops and rest areas, in my experience, none of the roads around these types of venues were conducive to riding a bicycle. Especially a rest area right off of a major interstate.

In short, trucking is a job. Not always easy. I haven't been in that big of a hurry to do the training.

There have been a number of tax credits for electric vehicles, and there was of course the Cash for Clunkers program of tax credits for new car buyers.

I'm not aware of any credits or deductions currently in effect on federal taxes. I'm also not aware that there was ever a deduction for auto loan interest payments similar to the deduction for interest n home mortgages.

One time deduction on sales tax. Also, the fact that every mile you drive has been subsidized, yes, just like the old arguement about transit.

I think we already entered a recession.

I didn't know until almost a year after the great recession started and ended. The government never reveals the date a recession started but only months after it ends. Telling the public the date a recession starts makes it worse so we're never informed. Don't be surprised if they say a year from now we entered a recession in October 2011I don't think it's that cleverly planned. If you use the economic definition of a recession as two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth, you can't detemine there has been a recession until the economic indicators for the second quarter have been number-crunched, so inevitably it's going to be old news.

I don't think it's that cleverly planned. If you use the economic definition of a recession as two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth, you can't detemine there has been a recession until the economic indicators for the second quarter have been number-crunched, so inevitably it's going to be old news.


Translated: You know immediately, but it's going to take the government a while to figure out what is obvious to you. ;)