Bicycle Mechanics - Bike Shop Markup vs. Tuning/Inspecting a BikesDirect bike?

Is there any rough standard for the an average LBS markup? I think that I have read hear before that it's very hard to say, but it's likely on the order of 10%.

If thats that's the case, and I want to spend $2200 on a bike, then should it make any difference to an LBS if I buy a bike they are selling for $2200, or buy a $2000 bike from BikesDirect and pay the LBS $200 to assemble the bike, true the wheels, and adjust everything?

On a bike in that price range, a bike shop would typically mark it up 35%-38%. And their operating overhead expenses are typically about 35%. So their main way of making any actual net profit is to sell you accessories to go with your new accessory magnet... errr... bike.

I've worked on some BikesDirect.com bikes. They cut corners. Maybe it matters to you, maybe it doesn't. They won't be there for you with warranty coverage. Maybe it matters to you, maybe it doesn't. At the end of the day, I'm paid by the hour and will gladly assemble and tune your BD.com bike to be all that it can be, so it's your call. We'd probably charge you $70 labor, our standard tune-up charge. And ironically, we probably make as much net profit from that $70 tune-up as we would by selling you a $2000 bike. Weird how that works.

For a newbie, I would recommend a local shop.
For fit and warranty issues.

You will come out ahead if you can work on your own bike ... :thumb:

Problem with people with a job, even just at a bike shop?

:trainwreck:

Markup and margin are two words for what a shop makes on a product, but work differently.
Markup is the percentage added to the shop's cost, margin is the percentage of the sale price that is gross profit.
A 100% markup translates as a 50% margin. The industry usually speaks the margin language.

At that price level and with little to no bike mechanical knowledge, no question you should buy directly from a well regarded bike shop.

It isn't just a matter of out-of-pocket cost. The bike shop will assemble your bike correctly, fix or replace any defective items, let you do some "customization" (stem length, etc.) within reason and give you a "tune up" to refine the shifting and brake performance after you've ridden the bike for a while and things have bedded in. They will also support any warranty claims you may have in the future. Bikes Direct will do none of the above.

Bikes Direct is for experienced mechanics who can do all of their own adjustments and can recognize and fix defects, and there are likely to be some. For the novice owner/mechanic they can be a huge headache.

At that price level and with little to no bike mechanical knowledge, no question you should buy directly from a well regarded bike shop.

It isn't just a matter of out-of-pocket cost. The bike shop will assemble your bike correctly, fix or replace any defective items, let you do some "customization" (stem length, etc.) within reason and give you a "tune up" to refine the shifting and brake performance after you've ridden the bike for a while and things have bedded in. They will also support any warranty claims you may have in the future. Bikes Direct will do none of the above.

Bikes Direct is for experienced mechanics who can do all of their own adjustments and can recognize and fix defects, and there are likely to be some. For the novice owner/mechanic they can be a huge headache.

100% correct

I've worked on some BikesDirect.com bikes. They cut corners. Maybe it matters to you, maybe it doesn't.

Just for my education, how are they cutting corners on the following bike?

http://bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/gran_premio_inferno.htm

That really is a question, and not an argument.

When I look at most of their cheaper bikes, it seems like they advertise one component group, but the actual stuff on the bike is a hodgepodge from different component groups. But it appears (to someone who doesn't know bikes) that all the components on this bike are "SRAM Red".

Where is the cheap stuff on this bike?


We'd probably charge you $70 labor, our standard tune-up charge. And ironically, we probably make as much net profit from that $70 tune-up as we would by selling you a $2000 bike. Weird how that works.

I wondered if that as truly the way it works.

It would seem that if I buy a $2000 bike from BD, and then pay a local LBS to go through it with a fine tooth comb, true the wheels, fit it, etc., the LBS may make net higher profit than if I buy a $2200 from them. In addition, they aren't risking any capital, or keeping the bike on display, or a myriad of other hidden costs.

It looks to me like an economic win/win - they make as much net profit from setting up the bike for me as they would selling me a $2200 bike, and I get a bike that they could not afford to sell me for $2200.

That means that the only real economic question for me is the trade-off between a lower price and warranty work, correct?

This is mostly a thought exercise for me, but what would an equivalent (steel lugged frame, SRAM Red components, Mavic Ksyrium wheels, etc. bike cost at an LBS?

If we have equalized all of the other issues (by paying $200 for assembly, fitting, and tuning), then the only remaining issue is the warranty.

Is there something wrong with this chain of reasoning?

The bike shop will assemble your bike correctly, fix or replace any defective items, let you do some "customization" (stem length, etc.) within reason and give you a "tune up" to refine the shifting and brake performance after you've ridden the bike for a while and things have bedded in.

Won't the local bike shop do all of that for $200? Someone else posted that their shop would do a tune-up for $70. So if I pay $130 for initial assembly, and $70 for a tuneup 3 months later, aren't I getting everything except the warranty?

Many responders seem to be answering the question, "Whats the difference between buying from BD with no support from a local LBS and buying from an LBS?"

I may not have expressed the idea clearly in the OP, but I was asking about buying the bike fro BD, and paying the LBS to do initial assembly, fitting, etc.

You will come out ahead if you can work on your own bike ... :thumb:

Do you understand that's not the question I was asking?

Bikes Direct is for experienced mechanics who can do all of their own adjustments and can recognize and fix defects, and there are likely to be some.

I guess these folks are at home working on their own bikes for the most part, which would make sense since we rarely see them at the bike shop. We get a lot of BD bikes in our shop to assemble, check out, etc., and the customers are almost always first-time bike buyers and the bikes are very, very inexpensive models. The customers often have literally no idea what to expect from their new bike or from us. They seem to have a kind of haphazard strategy of buying a bike, to be honest. These are the BD customers we typically see for service; which again, makes sense because experienced do-it-yourselfers wouldn't need us to service their bikes.

FWIW, the only bargain online bike I've seen in person that I was impressed with was a Neuvation I saw recently, which was equipped with a full SRAM Force group. We weighed the bike, and it was sub-16.5 lbs, ready to ride. When the customer told us the price he paid for it, I have to admit our jaws dropped a bit. It was in for what we call a "drivetrain tuneup," where we simply adjust the drivetrain, nothing else. The customer had fiddled with it and couldn't get it to shift right. I worked on it myself, and found that the derailleur hanger was misaligned badly. After that fix, it worked great and the customer was happy.

One thing's for sure, online bike sales are here to stay; as a shop you gotta just roll with it and do your best for the customer.

Won't the local bike shop do all of that for $200? Someone else posted that their shop would do a tune-up for $70. So if I pay $130 for initial assembly, and $70 for a tuneup 3 months later, aren't I getting everything except the warranty?

Many responders seem to be answering the question, "Whats the difference between buying from BD with no support from a local LBS and buying from an LBS?"

I may not have expressed the idea clearly in the OP, but I was asking about buying the bike fro BD, and paying the LBS to do initial assembly, fitting, etc.
You were clear enough. What the bike shop won't do on a BD bike is replace defective items or let you customize the fit. They will make sure everything on the BD bike is adjusted properly but they will only work with what is provided. If something is wrong, you will be on the hook for its replacement.

What I don't understand is why you want to deal with BD if the costs are equal.

Won't the local bike shop do all of that for $200? Someone else posted that their shop would do a tune-up for $70. So if I pay $130 for initial assembly, and $70 for a tuneup 3 months later, aren't I getting everything except the warranty?

Many responders seem to be answering the question, "Whats the difference between buying from BD with no support from a local LBS and buying from an LBS?"

I may not have expressed the idea clearly in the OP, but I was asking about buying the bike fro BD, and paying the LBS to do initial assembly, fitting, etc.

At that range, the savings are probably great enough that you'll come out ahead buying from BD and getting the LBS to build it up for you IF you get a bike that fits you right and you don't care about the name on the frame. You'd get better components than you'd get on a LBS bike in that range and they'll probably make a higher margin off you. They might not see it that way, but it seems like a win-win to me. Heck if you price it right you might be able to get a professional fit so you know exactly the right size before you buy, and then you could pay them to set the bike up that way. Probably would kill any price difference, but maybe not. At a lower price, the margins aren't big enough to make it worth your time, but at that level they might be.

I will buy from the bike shop when I can. I recently bought spokes, a hub and a rim to build up a wheel. I paid more than internet prices, but I like having a bike shop to go to. (Our city lost two shops in the last year.) I had a general idea how to put the wheel together, but the LBS owner pointed me to specific resources to consult and talked about different wheelbuilding methods.

The wheel is done, but I don't have the removal tool to take the cog off my old wheel to put in on the new wheel. So on the way home from work tonight I'll bring the wheel by the shop. I expect they will pop the freewheel cog off the old wheel for free, probably put the new wheel in the truing stand and check it out for me, and if they have a fixed cog and lock ring in stock I'll buy those and they'll probably put those on for free, too. They know I'll be back for more stuff when I need it, and that at some point in the future my kids will be out of college and I'll have enough disposable income to actually buy a nice bike from them. In the meantime, they nickel and dime me and I pick their brains and use their tools once in a while. Seems like a fair exchange to me.

You were clear enough. What the bike shop won't do on a BD bike is replace defective items or let you customize the fit. They will make sure everything on the BD bike is adjusted properly but they will only work with what is provided. If something is wrong, you will be on the hook for its replacement.

What I don't understand is why you want to deal with BD if the costs are equal.

From a long email trail in another forum, it appears that BD is will replace also defective parts.

There are two things that sparked this train of thought:


A number of bikes that I am interested are not available locally. The local shops can't even order them. Most of the the local shops feature one brand - at least in the < $2500 range. There's the Giant bikes shop, the Specialized bike shop, the Trek bike shop, etc. Those aren't the names of the shops, but that's mostly what they are. The LBS with a wide variety of bikes in a wide variety of sizes is largely a mythical beast, at least around here.

For example, if I wanted a steel lugged bike, or a belt drive bike, no LBS has them in stock.
Talking with the owner of an an LBS about a bike that I will probably buy from him, I realized that he faces a heck of an inventory dilemma. I am interested in a 2012 Civia Bryant Belt Alfine 11. Since that's an unusual taste around here, he has to make a quess as to inventory - does he buy 2 or 3?

If he guesses wrong, then he is could be stuck with those bike for years until he finally has to sell them at a loss. It seems like a big gamble to me. I wondered if there were a way to reduce his risk.


The simple answer to your final question is that even though the costs are equal - and the LBS is making an equal net profit on both purchases, I am getting a nicer bike than a local LBS can afford to sell me for $2200.

The price is really going to depend on the bike shop, location, and time of year. For instance, if you're going to have the LBS assemble a BD bike, this is probably a good time to do it. December? Don't hold your breath. And you can forget about getting it done the first nice week in spring (about April here), as their mechanics will have their hands full assembling new bikes, tuning them to new bike customers, and doing spring tune-ups on the regulars' bikes.

Though you didn't ask, that might be another reason to buy from the LBS. Busy bike shops take care of their own first, and walk-ins second. (I'm an exception. I've had enough weird stuff happen, and fixed at my LBS, that the mechanics get a gleam in their eyes whenever they see me walk in. Even if it's just for a new tube!)

Just for my education, how are they cutting corners on the following bike?

http://bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/gran_premio_inferno.htm


HeadsetFSA 1" W/SEALED Bearings
Handlebar6061 Butted Road, BAR BORE: 31.8mm, (52cm:400L,54~56cm:420L,58~61cm:440L)
StemMotobecane Superlight Road Aluminum, 1" (1.125+shim) Removable Clamp
(52cm:90L , 54~56cm:100L,58~61cm:110L)
Tape/GripMotobecane custom cork wrap Black
SaddleMotobecane Velo "Comfort Cut-out"
Seat PostSuperlite Micro Adjust alloy, 250mm X 27.2mm

This is not stuff that normally comes on a $2000 bike... or at least you should expect better.

A lot of the folks here work at shops, so they'll tell you to buy from a shop. That makes sense.

For me, I have owned a couple BD bikes, and I don't work in a bike shop. Honestly, they are fine bikes and you will get a lot more for your money buying from them. If you take it in to the LBS for setup, they'll profit nearly as much as if you bought a bike from them--everybody's happy. Some shops will be snobby about a BD bike, others won't--you'll have to shop around.

Keep in mind you will spend some cash upgrading a couple things. The pedals (although most expensive bikes don't come with pedals), the stem, maybe. The bars are fine if you like them, you may or may not. But that's the case with any bike.

That bike looks like a lot of bike for $2k. You won't get that much bike for that price anywhere else.

From a long email trail in another forum, it appears that BD is will replace also defective parts.

There are two things that sparked this train of thought:


A number of bikes that I am interested are not available locally. The local shops can't even order them. Most of the the local shops feature one brand - at least in the < $2500 range. There's the Giant bikes shop, the Specialized bike shop, the Trek bike shop, etc. Those aren't the names of the shops, but that's mostly what they are. The LBS with a wide variety of bikes in a wide variety of sizes is largely a mythical beast, at least around here.

For example, if I wanted a steel lugged bike, or a belt drive bike, no LBS has them in stock.
Talking with the owner of an an LBS about a bike that I will probably buy from him, I realized that he faces a heck of an inventory dilemma. I am interested in a 2012 Civia Bryant Belt Alfine 11. Since that's an unusual taste around here, he has to make a quess as to inventory - does he buy 2 or 3?

If he guesses wrong, then he is could be stuck with those bike for years until he finally has to sell them at a loss. It seems like a big gamble to me. I wondered if there were a way to reduce his risk.


The simple answer to your final question is that even though the costs are equal - and the LBS is making an equal net profit on both purchases, I am getting a nicer bike than a local LBS can afford to sell me for $2200.

Well, if you're fairly confident you're going to buy it and are willing to put money down, it's not like he's risking anything to order it for you as he won't be carrying it in inventory. He'll just build it up and you'll go off on it. Restock fees if you don't want it are going to be a problem unless you agree in advance that he passes those on to you if you don't like it.

Also, I don't think BD sells too many belt drive (or IGH) bikes, so that might mean you can't go through them to get what you want.

Just for my education, how are they cutting corners on the following bike?

http://bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/gran_premio_inferno.htm

That really is a question, and not an argument.
Handlebar, stem, saddle, seat post are the obvious ones. Not that they would be deal killers but they are cutting a few corners to help keep costs down. Personally, I've looked at buying BD bikes a couple of times and got far better deals buying at Performance Bike Shop. It took a little patience but I scored some nice bikes. I would not hesitate buying from BD if that is where I got the best deal and I would do the assembly myself (I've done assembly on 3 "bikes in boxes" - 2 NIB vintage MTBs and a Nashbar single speed for my son).

I will say that Gran Premio is a sweet looking bike. I'd be very happy to have that in my stable.

HeadsetFSA 1" W/SEALED Bearings
Handlebar6061 Butted Road, BAR BORE: 31.8mm, (52cm:400L,54~56cm:420L,58~61cm:440L)
StemMotobecane Superlight Road Aluminum, 1" (1.125+shim) Removable Clamp
(52cm:90L , 54~56cm:100L,58~61cm:110L)
Tape/GripMotobecane custom cork wrap Black
SaddleMotobecane Velo "Comfort Cut-out"
Seat PostSuperlite Micro Adjust alloy, 250mm X 27.2mm

This is not stuff that normally comes on a $2000 bike... or at least you should expect better.

I'd really question the choice of a 1" steerer tube on a $2000 bike when literally everything these days is 1 1/8". Granted if you bought all those components separately it probably works out that they are paying you to take the the frame. It's a steal then :)

Some shops will be snobby about a BD bike, others won't--you'll have to shop around.

This is true. Find a shop that doesn't have an attitude about your BD bike, if you get one.

One other factor that occasionally comes into play is shipping damage, or even pre-shipping damage. This is another small gamble you take when you buy off the Internet. If you buy from the LBS, it's their problem, not yours. If you decide to buy from BD, and the box shows up with any signs of crushing or damage, then 1) take photos as you unpack, and 2) save all packing materials in case you need to make a claim with the shipper.

Someone should design a bike box that lets off a 110-decibel siren when laid on its side, that's what I say :D

I'd really question the choice of a 1" steerer tube on a $2000 bike when literally everything these days is 1 1/8". Granted if you bought all those components separately it probably works out that they are paying you to take the the frame. It's a steal then :)

I think it's a nod towards the "vintage" styling of the lugged steel frame. Personally I would prefer a 1" with this kind of bike.

You may also want to upgrade the saddle--I'd personally put a brooks swift or swallow on that bike--but again, you are fairly likely to upgrade the saddle on a bike at the LBS, too.

I think it's a nod towards the "vintage" styling of the lugged steel frame. Personally I would prefer a 1" with this kind of bike.

"Vintage" and SRAM Red are two things that, in my opinion, should never attempt to co-mingle. If going for the vintage look, I'd find a threaded steerer and quill stem far more appropriate anyway.

"Vintage" and SRAM Red are two things that, in my opinion, should never attempt to co-mingle. If going for the vintage look, I'd find a threaded steerer and quill stem far more appropriate anyway.

Yeah, I agree. But it is what it is.

Also, I don't think BD sells too many belt drive (or IGH) bikes, so that might mean you can't go through them to get what you want.

This was really posted as a question about understanding the economics of the situation.

The particular example comes from a web search. The bike I want won't be available until March/April of 2012, and will cost right at about $2200. I wondered what other bikes I could get in that price range, and was searching for "lugged steel" on google when I found this Motobecane - that sparked the train of thought.

Yeah, I agree. But it is what it is.

Of course...I'm just nitpicking. All of my own bikes have questionable component choices as well, depending on who you ask. I can justifying those parts being there (sorta) but they aren't common choices by any means. The BD bike in question has far more character than most anything else they offer (spoken by someone who has bought several BD bikes for others).

That bike looks like a lot of bike for $2k. You won't get that much bike for that price anywhere else.

The parts are nice, but I don't know how one can characterize a bike with parallel 74 degree angles (58CM) as comfort oriented! That, given the sub-1000mm wheelbase is full-on racing geometry!

And I would not be inclined to buy anything call Premio Inferno, which roughly translates to "Prize from Hell". :lol:

This was really posted as a question about understanding the economics of the situation.

The particular example comes from a web search. The bike I want won't be available until March/April of 2012, and will cost right at about $2200. I wondered what other bikes I could get in that price range, and was searching for "lugged steel" on google when I found this Motobecane - that sparked the train of thought.

I do like the look of that bike, but, if I was going with a high end lugged steel, bike, I'd wish for a little clearance for fenders and rack mounts. Sure, it'd be kind of silly to put SRAM Red (and 725 tubing) on a bike weighed down with those things, but then you could really go for a classic look if you liked with your high end steel bike. But if I was going to spend that much on a steel bike, I'd probably be looking Rivendell (I don't know, maybe you can't get a Rivendel for that price) or seeing what custom would buy me and go with slightly lower end components.

The parts are nice, but I don't know how one can characterize a bike with parallel 74 degree angles (58CM) as comfort oriented! That, given the sub-1000mm wheelbase is full-on racing geometry!

And I would not be inclined to buy anything call Premio Inferno, which roughly translates to "Prize from Hell". :lol:

Oh, I didn't even look at the angles, just their words comfort oriented and then couldn't figure out why a "comfort oriented" lugged steel bike for long distance rides would only just barely fit 25 mm tires. With that in mind, forget my requests for room for fenders and rack mounts. It's a steel racing bike (or would like to be).

I do like the look of that bike, but, if I was going with a high end lugged steel, bike, I'd wish for a little clearance for fenders and rack mounts. Sure, it'd be kind of silly to put SRAM Red (and 725 tubing) on a bike weighed down with those things, but then you could really go for a classic look if you liked with your high end steel bike. But if I was going to spend that much on a steel bike, I'd probably be looking Rivendell (I don't know, maybe you can't get a Rivendel for that price) or seeing what custom would buy me and go with slightly lower end components.

If you find a Rivendell or a custom for $2Km please post.

From what I can tell from the Rivendell site, most of the complete builds are well above $3K.

Another option, and maybe the most economical, would be to look for something really nice used. The Classic & Vintage forum has a sales subforum, and I have seen some truly excellent lugged steel bikes (De Rosa, etc) go for less than this. Yes, they're older but they have tons of character.

See this thread in the General Cyclying Discussion Forum

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/774399-Full-Email-Record-of-Bikes-Direct-MTB-Purchase

In the end it looks like the OP was taken care of, but the resolution took almost 3 weeks.

See this thread in the General Cycling Discussion Forum

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/774399-Full-Email-Record-of-Bikes-Direct-MTB-Purchase

In the end it looks like the OP was taken care of, but the resolution took almost 3 weeks.

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of.

http://bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/gran_premio_inferno.htm




The parts are nice, but I don't know how one can characterize a bike with parallel 74 degree angles (58CM) as comfort oriented! That, given the sub-1000mm wheelbase is full-on racing geometry!

And I would not be inclined to buy anything call Premio Inferno, which roughly translates to "Prize from Hell". :lol:


The frame and geometry of this bike remind me of my 58cm Specialized Allez Steel Double. Its head tube and seat tube angles are both 73 degrees, and it has very short chainstays, and it has little clearance for tires larger than 25c. The wheelbase of my bike is 1008mm, so while it is short it's not quite as short as the BD bike. Despite all of that, it is very comfortable to ride. I routinely ride it on 40-60 mile rides and find it fits my riding style quite well. I even have strap-on fenders that keep me clean if riding in the rain. This bike is my favorite for daily commuting (27 miles/day). I've allowed a couple of people to ride it, and they are surprised at how comfortable the bike is to ride considering its aggressive geometry.

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=45678&eid=4350

Mind you, my bike has low end components, so the $399 I paid for it at my LBS isn't a fair comparison to the BD bike. My post isn't intended to address the economic question posed by the OP. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth about the prospect of the BD bike being comfortable on long rides.

[QUOTE=BikeWise1;13354385]The parts are nice, but I don't know how one can characterize a bike with parallel 74 degree angles (58CM) as comfort oriented! That, given the sub-1000mm wheelbase is full-on racing geometry!


I have a 58cm lugged steel frame bike with parallel 74 degree angles and sub-1000mm wheelbase. It's twitchy below 16 mph, handles nicely 16-26 mph and really comes alive above 26mph. It's super stiff - excellant hill climber, and extremely harsh riding. I prefer to ride it only on very smooth pavement, and it will beat me to death if I try anything over about 50 miles. It doesn't like straight roads (unless you can keep your speed in the mid 20's or higher), but corners better than any other bike I've ever ridden. This bike is a pure criterium machine. For "recreational" riding, it's best for (very) fast riding on hilly twisting roads (with smooth pavement). Now I know every frame is different, so there's nothing that means this BD bike will handle or be the same as mine, but you now have a description of the ride characteristics of another bike with comparable frame geometry.

Now I know every frame is different, so there's nothing that means this BD bike will handle or be the same as mine, but you now have a description of the ride characteristics of another bike with comparable frame geometry.

It's also not clear whether the entire frame, and not just the main triangle, is made from 725. This would, of course, affect ride quality, since 725 is a stiff tube. But low end frames often have this shortcut since they are built quickly, then aligned afterward. Using strong tubes in the rear triangle makes this very hard to do well, so manufacturers avoid it. We sell Gunnar/Waterford and they build with complete tubesets, and don't cheap out in the rear triangle, but as Richard Schwinn will tell you: "Our frames have to be born straight", because it is impractical to align, after being welded or brazed, the types of tubes they use.

And the BD ad copy is their usual sloppy hyperbole:

The angles of the butted, Reynolds 725 cro-moly frame are relaxed for stability

Riiiight.......never mind cro-moly isn't even a word.....it's chromoly. Short for chromium molybdenum alloy. And calling 74 degree angles relaxed is just flat wrong...

Well the do say the fork is 725, so if the fork is and they say the frame is I'd bet it's the whole frame and not just the main triangle, but what do I know. that might be a spot to skimp.

Well the do say the fork is 725, so if the fork is and they say the frame is I'd bet it's the whole frame and not just the main triangle, but what do I know. that might be a spot to skimp.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I doubt many buyers are either going to care, or perform metallurgical assays on their new bike....;)

Someone brought in an 11 year old Trek road bike they found on CL a week ago. It was in amazingly good shape, and they said they paid $60 for it. Now that's value!

Just for my education, how are they cutting corners on the following bike?

http://bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/gran_premio_inferno.htm



Hmm, pretty slick. Well, if you have to niggle, Reynolds 825 is a little porky and less than top-of-the-line, and the frame design is a bit perfunctory. But I have to concede that there's a lot of value here--solid components and the workmanship looks very good.

Just for my education, how are they cutting corners on the following bike?

http://bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/gran_premio_inferno.htm
http://bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/images/gran_premio_red_xi_600.jpg


That is a really nice bike with high end components ... :thumb:
Have you considered Titanium as an alternative to steel?


http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp_ti_inferno_sram_red.htm
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/images/le_ti_inferno_600.jpg