Bicycle Mechanics - Who makes the most powerful brakes?

I've got a fixie and I just want to add a front brake with maximum bear trap like clamping power. I seem to remember the Mavic SSCs being pretty strong...suggestions?

What type of brake? disc, caliper, canti, V, U etc

Really (http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/10/analysis-of-bicycle-endo.html)?

If your brake will lock your front wheel, at speed, with a reasonable amount of hand pressure on the lever, there is really no purpose for "maximum bear trap like clamping power". With any decent brakes your wheel is going to lock well before you run out of "clamping power". The big difference in types and quality of brakes is not at lockout, but how smooth and controllable the transition is from lightly feathering the brakes to maximum deceleration. Notice I said "deceleration" not lock out as your maximum braking comes at the point just prior to the wheel breaking traction and sliding. Power sliding is not efficient braking. The precision with which you can apply pressure to the brake pads and the return feel you get determines how accurately you can keep a bike at maximum braking without locking up the wheels.

If your brake will lock your front wheel, at speed, with a reasonable amount of hand pressure on the lever, there is really no purpose for "maximum bear trap like clamping power". With any decent brakes your wheel is going to lock well before you run out of "clamping power".

It's all but impossible to lock a front wheel with your brakes - it just doesn't happen unless maybe you're on ice.

OP has a fixie... most likely any sidepull caliper will give him plenty of stopping power... might need a long reach version if he has fenders and big tires.

The Bengal discs on my Terratrike will lock the wheels. In an emergency locking the wheels on a trike wont cause much problems. Lock the front wheel on a bike is going to bring road rash. BTW LWB bents can stand far more brakinng action of the front wheel than a DF, because of the load shift, and the fact it is almost impossible to fly over the handlebars.

It's all but impossible to lock a front wheel with your brakes - it just doesn't happen unless maybe you're on ice.


Not really. It's more difficult to lock the front wheel on dry pavement but not impossible. Change the surface even a little and locking the front wheel becomes much easier. Gravel, rocks, marbles, paint, etc. on pavement reduce the friction and make locking up the front wheel easier. Changing the body position of the rider has a huge influence on locking the front wheel. An endo is, by definition, a front wheel lock. The rider pivots around the hub because that's the front wheel is locked.

There are very few brakes that aren't capable of causing pitchover. And the ones that can are very old. Most all of the 'power' of braking comes from technique, not from the mechanical parts of the bike.

Brembo:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTq-1xXqeDf5yW_z3fc-2k12vJxegqyiJ4nXLLkcktExCh_ithP

Brakes do not stop your bike. Brakes stop the wheel from rotating. Tires stop bikes. If you have a narrow tire on the front, that's what determines the stopping power. Any decent road caliper will be sufficient.

It's all but impossible to lock a front wheel with your brakes - it just doesn't happen unless maybe you're on ice.



I have absolutely no problem getting enough brake force to lift the rear wheel off the ground if I want to. Naturally this isn't desirable, but that represents the absolute maximum possible stopping power.

Any decent brake, with decent shoes and clean rims should be able to do this. Usually when they can't it's because of glazed brake shoes, though brake rigidity and brake arm length are also factors.

For a specific recommendation, any model Shimano double pivot caliper brake will provide all the stopping power you can possibly use. BTW, is your front rim aluminum or steel? If it's steel, that's the first thing you should change.

It Would have to bolt on thru the fork crown and thus limited to a road bike caliper.
I would look at a dual pivot type , rather than a single pivot.

now if you fit a very strong fork, on the bike, and a powerful disc brake on front..
you get something so strong that it turns the rider into a ballistic projectile
to be flung to the ground, as all the momentum is transferred to the Weakest Link.
:trainwreck:

I've got a fixie and I just want to add a front brake
with maximum bear trap like clamping power.

Maybe you should hold off a little while.

http://www.gizmag.com/wireless-braking-for-bicycles/20150/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=2d424517d9-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email

SCOTT PEDERSEN SUNTOUR SE from Sheldon Brown: http://sheldonbrown.com/tandem-brakes.html
Self-Energizing (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sa-o.html#self) Cantilevers

Because of the myth that conventional cantilevers aren't strong enough for tandem use, some people favor Self-Energizing cantilevers. These don't have a simple pivot, instead, each arm moves on a steep multi-start screw thread, so that as the shoe approaches the rim it also moves forward. When it rubs on the moving rim, the forward pull tends to increase the inward pressure, providing a "positive feedback."
This design can apply greater braking force for less finger force than a conventional cantilever, but it is difficult to modulate it. The original Scott Pedersen SE brakes were available either for front or rear use (opposite direction threadings), but when Sun Tour (http://sheldonbrown.com/suntour.html) bought the design, their legal department vetoed the front version, so only the rear model was made by Sun Tour. I advise against the use of Self Energizing brakes, because they make it too easy to lock up the wheel.


Self-energizing Brakes http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sa-o.html#self

Self-energizing brakes use some of the braking force to provide a "power assist" to the brakes. The best-known self-energizing brake is the Scott-Peterson (Sun Tour (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_st-z.html#sun))cantilever (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#cantilever), which has a steep, helical thread as its pivot, so that the forward force exerted by the rim (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ri-z.html#rim) against the pads helps cause the pads to press harder than they would from hand effort alone. Self-energizing brakes are quite controversial, because they can have a non-linear response, which may lead to wheel lock-up.

I have absolutely no problem getting enough brake force to lift the rear wheel off the ground if I want to. Naturally this isn't desirable, but that represents the absolute maximum possible stopping power.

All right... I was thinking of skidding the front tire, not doing a partial endo. So I amend my statement to say "it's all but impossible to SKID the front wheel unless you're on ice or something." Which is what I understood Myosmith
to be talking about.


There has been a lot of discussion of this in the commuting and fixed gear forums because some jurisdictions have a statement in their bike rules that "A bicycle must be equipped with a brake that enables the operator to make the braked wheels skid on dry, level, clean pavement."

Now that's obviously a stupid law written by somebody who doesn't understand bicycles or the physics of braking, but since there's virtually no way anyone could meet this requirement with a front brake only (as common with fixies) it has sometimes been interpreted (by fixie haters) to mean a bike must have a rear brake.

Yes technically those who are saying that when you endo you are producing the maximum braking force possible are incorrect. You could still brake harder if you shifted your weight further back. If you drop your butt behind the seat like on a mountainbike, you could probably brake even harder without an endover. At some point you will lose front wheel traction. That is the true maximum braking force possible.

sometimes been interpreted (by fixie haters) to mean a bike must have a rear brake.

or by people who think bikes should have two brakes.

Between different dual pivot calipers, there shouldn't be a huge difference if you are using good pads and have prepped it well. Tektros work fine for most people.

If your brake will lock your front wheel....

I have found that there is often blood in front of the bike after locking the front wheel.

Brakes do not stop your bike. Brakes stop the wheel from rotating. Tires stop bikes. If you have a narrow tire on the front, that's what determines the stopping power.

Uhh... what?

Dual pivot - side-pull :)

I have absolutely no problem getting enough brake force to lift the rear wheel off the ground if I want to. Naturally this isn't desirable, but that represents the absolute maximum possible stopping power.

Any decent brake, with decent shoes and clean rims should be able to do this. Usually when they can't it's because of glazed brake shoes, though brake rigidity and brake arm length are also factors.

brake rigidity Yes! Which brake sidepull dual pivot has the most rigidity??

I have found that there is often blood in front of the bike after locking the front wheel.

And from what little I can recall, some associated pain.:twitchy:

brake rigidity Yes! Which brake sidepull dual pivot has the most rigidity??
Any decent model (for Shimano that's Sora and up) will be plenty rigid and powerful. Teltros are fine as are anything Campy makes if cost isn't an issue.

What's with your quest for extremes?

Which brake sidepull dual pivot has the most rigidity??

the most expensive one, until the 'make it lighter' factor reduces the rigidity.

Uhh... what?

You can only brake until you start skidding. A wide front tire has a larger contact area, and requires more force to break the standing friction to start a skid.

this will stop you.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/000704-N-5961C-006_Ship_Anchor_Maintenance.jpg/504px-000704-N-5961C-006_Ship_Anchor_Maintenance.jpg

I've got a fixie and I just want to add a front brake with maximum bear trap like clamping power. I seem to remember the Mavic SSCs being pretty strong...suggestions?

Scott Superbrake: http://www.scottsbr.com/Our_Products.html

223137

You can only brake until you start skidding. A wide front tire has a larger contact area, and requires more force to break the standing friction to start a skid.

On clean dry pavement, the front tire will never skid regardless of how narrow it is.

Once you're off clean dry pavement all bets are off as there are many variables. I have a set of MTB tires that will lift the rear wheel on wet grass :D

Just avoid these. Almost any other calipers work well enough, even most single-pivots are strong enough for me.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2685/5802917696_a05286aa89_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lesterofpuppets/5802917696/)

Any decent brake*, with decent shoes and clean rims should be able to do this.

* Pretty much any properly set up disc, V-brake (alright, canti too), or dual-pivot sidepull.

IMO single-pivot sidepulls just don't have the mechanical advantage to cut it on the front. However, they're perfect for the rear, where a dual-pivot is heavier than necessary, and has too much advantage to allow for optimal modulation.

brake rigidity Yes! Which brake sidepull dual pivot has the most rigidity??

IMO they're all limited by the size of the fixing bolt; with perfectly rigid arms they'll still flex at the attachment. Since the dual-pivot design has more than enough advantage to lock a front wheel, the point of reducing flex isn't just to minimise wasted effort, but mainly to enhance modulation. There are also other design elements employed to improve modulation such as thrust bearings. Every caliper brake flexes, but some modulate better than others... I'd imagine Shimano, Campy and SRAM's nicer stuff would be about as good as it gets.

IMO single-pivot sidepulls just don't have the mechanical advantage to cut it on the front. However, they're perfect for the rear, where a dual-pivot is heavier than necessary, and has too much advantage to allow for optimal modulation.
That's Campy's approach for their higher line brake sets. A dual pivot in front for power and a single pivot in back for reduced power and a slight weight savings.

Uhh... what?

On my road bike with 700x 23 tires, I can lock the front wheel. Theoretically. When the front tire locks, you are crashing or about to. Most bikes will lift the rear before that point, unless you scoot way back. Pointless exercise, unless you are making a funny bike video with some chump doing the riding.

My mountain bike has 26 x 2.1 tires with disc brakes. On dry asphalt it will slow as fast as you can hang on. My touring bike has cantis with Koolstop pads. Tires are 27 x 1x1/4. Longer wheelbase, fatter tires, braking is most impressive.

My grandpa had a Raliegh folder with 20" wheels fitted with age-hardened tires. It was easy to lock the front tire.

To the OP: get a good dual pivot sidepull.

Lester is showing a rather long reach side pull, on a bike
where cheapest sale price was the 1st priority.

You can only brake until you start skidding. A wide front tire has a larger contact area, and requires more force to break the standing friction to start a skid.

On a hard surface this is not true. Friction force = normal force X friction coefficient.

Also, a wide tire only has a wider contact patch if it is run at a lower pressure. Two tires pumped up to the same pressure will have the same contact area regardless of the width.

On a hard surface this is not true. Friction force = normal force X friction coefficient.
Tires "interlock" with irregularities in the road surface so the situation is not the theoretical "hard surface" coefficient of friction case that is independent of contact area. It's why race cars run the widest, lowest pressure and softest rubber compound tires they can find or the rules allow. It's also why the "coefficient of friction" can exceed 1.0 for many situations.

The front tire skid discussion is moot on most bicycles.

At maximum braking force bicycle front tires rarely if ever skid on dry pavement. Instead the tip vs slide situation described here (http://wiki.pingry.org/u/physics/index.php/AP_Physics_Problem_Set_--_Slip/Tip) applies, the force generated combined with the high center of gravity favors tipping over sliding. This is what we in the bike world call a header, so front braking force is always modulated below what would cause front wheel skid.

On the rear wheel the opposite happens. High braking forces reduce the rear axle weight, and sliding occurs fairly easily.

Hope makes some dual-piston front brakes... TOTAL overkill unless you're taking loooong and steep descents.

Let's ask bobby root what sort of brake he is rocking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6Sd0J2OUlo
Looks like your standard single piston hydro disc brake!

Hi guys,

I'm about to buy this brake set online. I need a V brake style that can handle fenders. What do you guys think of my selection?

Tektro 857AL (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/BR407A09-Tektro+857Al+Linear+Pull+Brake.aspx)

Kool-Stop Tectonic Pad (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/BR409D02-Kool-Stop+Tectonic.aspx)

Main usage will be for Canadian winter commute. Short trip, 15KM total range. No big hills. The bike will be outfitted with a 350W front motor however.

Obviously, locking the front wheel at speed is going to result in bad things, endo being high on the list. My point being that if your back brake is already capable of creating a skid and your front brake is capable of launching you over the handlebar, increased clamping power beyond that point is of no additional value.

Where in Canada? Will your winter be more like Edmonton's or Hamilton's?

Either way, those brakes and pads should work well, but it is advisable to get s couple extra sets of brake pads... winter + 350W assist = brake pad wear.

Where in Canada? Will your winter be more like Edmonton's or Hamilton's?

Either way, those brakes and pads should work well, but it is advisable to get s couple extra sets of brake pads... winter + 350W assist = brake pad wear.

Yup, the best pads in the winter for rim brakes are the ones which eat the rim the fastest... Kool-stop salmon is a good one get at minimum 2 sets.

Where in Canada? Will your winter be more like Edmonton's or Hamilton's?

Either way, those brakes and pads should work well, but it is advisable to get s couple extra sets of brake pads... winter + 350W assist = brake pad wear.

More like Hamilton.

Thanks for the advice of getting multiple pads. Will save me shipping in the long run.


Yup, the best pads in the winter for rim brakes are the ones which eat the rim the fastest... Kool-stop salmon is a good one get at minimum 2 sets.

From the Tectonic product page, it shows the the pad has salmon filet right in the middle. I couldn't find pure salmon for the V brake Tectonic line so I just went with the multi.

Hydro disc brakes are usually featuring 2 opposing pistons, very few just have a fixed pad.
but fixed pad is the norm for cable operated disc calipers.

More like Hamilton.

Thanks for the advice of getting multiple pads. Will save me shipping in the long run.



From the Tectonic product page, it shows the the pad has salmon filet right in the middle. I couldn't find pure salmon for the V brake Tectonic line so I just went with the multi.


Yeah, haven't seen the pure salmon around for a while... they were great... took a pair down a really steep hill before and they shot out sparks! Apparently they're filled with tiny iron filings. Really not good for the rims though... haha!

That's Campy's approach for their higher line brake sets. A dual pivot in front for power and a single pivot in back for reduced power and a slight weight savings.

And it took em how long to figure it out? And it's just an option. And nobody else is doing it.

I've been rocking DP/SP since there was a choice. How isn't this completely obviously the way to go?

Sure, when DPs came along Shimano and Campy used the same brake on the rear cause it was cheaper to use fewer unique parts, but I'm amazed lots of people didn't find a DP on the rear to be silly and use an old SP instead.

And I'm surprised Shimano never have offered a SP rear on DA again, given the total gruppo weight war at the top.

I've been rocking DP/SP since there was a choice. How isn't this completely obviously the way to go?
Another approach is to use high quality pads (Kool Stop or similar) for the front brake and low quality pads (Tektros) in back. You get the same power differential and get to use up those cheap OEM pads. :)


And I'm surprised Shimano never have offered a SP rear on DA again, given the total gruppo weight war at the top.
I wonder if the UCI's minimum weight rule has cooled the weight wars a bit and there is less incentive to build special items just to save say 10 grms or so.

this will stop you.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/000704-N-5961C-006_Ship_Anchor_Maintenance.jpg/504px-000704-N-5961C-006_Ship_Anchor_Maintenance.jpg

Out a-weighting the anchor again. Why don't they just stencil the lbs./kg on the thing. OOOps! Forgot it was the Navy. RONTFLOL!

stop

this will stop you.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/000704-N-5961C-006_Ship_Anchor_Maintenance.jpg/504px-000704-N-5961C-006_Ship_Anchor_Maintenance.jpg
Looks like the crank on a 1972 Schwinn Varsity