Classic & Vintage - Swiss threaded Campagnolo bottom bracket

I have a 1976 Crescent that has a Swiss threaded bottom bracket, and I love it. I've had it for about 3 or 4 years now. So when I saw another one that appears to be the exact same year on ebay for next to nothing I snapped it up. Problem is the one I picked up wasn't supplied with a bottom bracket. As many of you probably know Swiss threaded bottom brackets are only currently made by Phil Wood and are over $150. I have been looking for spare parts for these Swiss threaded bottom brackets for awhile now and I already have some adjustable French cups and axles and such, so I only need the fixed cup. If anybody is sitting on a Campagnolo cup stamped 35X1G I would LOVE to buy it off you. I would even be willing to buy a non Campy fixed cup, but Campy would be best because I'm going to build it up with a complete Nuovo Record group and would prefer to keep it original.

I saw a guy in this thread http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-735327.html had a picture of one and he was looking for French ones. I tried to msg him, but it won't let me private msg until I have 50 post. So this is my attempt to reach somebody anybody that might be sitting on one of these.

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/grand-cru-threadless-bottom-brackets.html

Sorry, no Campy Swiss cups here. Another option is an IRD cartridge-bearing bottom bracket, plus the alloy Swiss-threaded cups they have recently started producing.
http://store.interlocracing.com/bobrisandsqt.html

The units have JIS taper, but that's pretty close to Campagnolo from the old days. I believe that they have symmetrical spindle disposition, however, so you might need to size the BB by what you need on the drive side. JIS is a bit stubbier than Campy, though, so round down rather than up.

I knew about the VO threadless and have considered it. Good link on the IRD bb that is news to me.

I'm under the impression ISO is actually closer to the old Campy standard not JIS. http://www.philwood.com/products/bbhome.php . It is possible to put a Campy crank on on a JIS but the fit isn't very good. It will stick further out and will damage the tapers permanently, and even possibly lead to failure.

I know I might be in a hopeless search for basically non exsistant parts, but I'd really like to build this bike up full Campy Nuovo Record.

Here is a picture of my first Crescent that I have set up as a fixed gear with mostly Nuovo Record. Not quite the current build but very similar. I've since Polished the cranks and chainring as well as moved the ring to the outer mount. Switched the seatpost to a fluted Super Record. Replaced the front brake with a long reach Nuovo Record. I've also put my Brooks saddle back on it. 222926

which Campi crank are you going to use? with the IRD I don't see any information on taper and offset.

as for the Phil BB yes they are a bit pricy, but you can get just what you need for the taper, length and offset. also should you ever pass the cresent on you can remove the cartidge and leave the rings/cups for the new owner as an option.

you might try contacting this company and see if you can get someone to poke around and see if there is still one around.

http://www.ochsnerusa-store.com/search.php

what tool do those IRD cups take?

I'm under the impression ISO is actually closer to the old Campy standard not JIS. http://www.philwood.com/products/bbhome.php .
That's a mistaken impression unless your cranks date from later than mid-90s; look at their FAQ (http://www.philwood.com/support/faqs.php), and search for the words "in addition to Campagnolo cranks produced before 1994."

I know I might be in a hopeless search for basically non exsistant parts, but I'd really like to build this bike up full Campy Nuovo Record.

Hey, that's a great aspiration, but good luck finding a Campagnolo Swiss right cup in the "thick or thin" version that you need for your spindle. You might have better luck finding a Stronglight or TA cup, but those both are "wider track" (bearings further apart) than Campagnolo, even Italian Campy spindles that are 2 mm wider than English/French/Swiss. I have two Swiss-threaded-BB frames, and though they're currently provided for, I bought a set of the IRD cups just for the rainy day when I'm in the same boat as you.

what tool do those IRD cups take?

The Shimano tool.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Stronglight-Swiss-Threaded-B-B-Cups-NOS-RARE-/370544537220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56462cee84
Mike Fraysse had these Stronglight Swiss cups for sale for many months at eBay now. that is, if you don't mind haveing Stronglight parts on your bike....Otherwise, Phil Wood would be the best option for a good sealed bearing unit.....but will cost you close to $150 from most retailers.

Chombi

Everything turns up on ebay eventually.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Stronglight-Swiss-Threaded-B-B-Cups-NOS-RARE-/370544537220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56462cee84
Mike Fraysse had these Stronglight Swiss cups for sale for many months at eBay now. that is, if you don't mind haveing Stronglight parts on your bike....Otherwise, Phil Wood would be the best option for a good sealed bearing unit.....but will cost you close to $150 from most retailers.
I bought a set of those, and they're in service on a Motobécane. Still, you'd need to go with a Stronglight or TA spindle, and it might or might not be right for the chainline with a Campy crank. I used a Sugino Mighty crank, and chainline turned out OK, but YMMV.

That's a mistaken impression unless your cranks date from later than mid-90s; look at their FAQ (http://www.philwood.com/support/faqs.php), and search for the words "in addition to Campagnolo cranks produced before 1994."

Hey, that's a great aspiration, but good luck finding a Campagnolo Swiss right cup in the "thick or thin" version that you need for your spindle. You might have better luck finding a Stronglight or TA cup, but those both are "wider track" (bearings further apart) than Campagnolo, even Italian Campy spindles that are 2 mm wider than English/French/Swiss. I have two Swiss-threaded-BB frames, and though they're currently provided for, I bought a set of the IRD cups just for the rainy day when I'm in the same boat as you.

Has anybody tried a Nuovo Record crank on a IRD BB? How is the chain line? They sell a 113 and a 115. Any thoughts on which would be closest to the correct chain line.

There are too many variables to make a recommendation without trial-and-error. First, there are two different (road, double chainring) spindle lengths used by Campagnolo 70s-80s cranks, depending on pre-CPSC regulations and post. Look at the chart linked as "this one" on the Phil Wood FAQ referenced earlier. Second, Campagnolo used an asymmetrical spindle, where the drive side projects more than non-drive; despite having 2 IRD BBs in service, I don't know whether theirs are symmetrical or asymmetrical, and by how much. If I had to bet, I'd say symmetrical, but that's just a hunch. Third, there's the fit difference between Campagnolo's taper and JIS. JIS is supposed to be stubbier than Campy. 4th, there's manufacturing tolerances.

Mixing and matching BBs and cranks, or worse yet, BB parts, is a black art. Fortunately, derailer bikes are somewhat tolerant of chainline not being perfect, so a lot of people get away with it.

You might search the archives here for other threads -- I remember that some people have done comparative measurements with some variables held constant.

Has anybody tried a Nuovo Record crank on a IRD BB? How is the chain line? They sell a 113 and a 115. Any thoughts on which would be closest to the correct chain line.

I used one with a 107mm spindle on a Strada crank with a single 1/8" chainring on the outside position. It worked fine.

I happen to have one loose, in my parts stash. A Tange one, but they make the BBs for IRD. It's definitely a symmetrical spindle: marked 110.5 mm width, measures 111.2, and the shell-to-end-right side (SER) dimension is 20.8; so it's actually a bit short of being symmetrical on the right side!

Justin (ColonelJLloyd) didn't say what chainline he ended up with, but if it was about the center of a typical cogset (43.5 mm from frame centerline), then you'd want to move it right 2.5 mm for a double crankset, meaning add 5 mm total to the width. 107 + 5 = 112. Now, Campy had a 112 typical spindle length earlier on (pre-CPSC), and then went to one 1.5 mm longer on the right side later (post-CPSC); so it would be helpful if Justin also added which type of Strada crank he used.

If you're interested in this sort of stuff, I recommend Sutherland's Handbook for Bicycle Mechanics; the 6th edition has quite complete information (grain of salt: measured by Sutherland's staff from actual examples, I believe, not mfgrs' specs) on both cups and spindles, going back from the 90s into the 70s.

I forgot to mention one other variable for Campagnolo cranks, thick or thin cups, which affects (I believe) both pre- and post-CPSC variants. However, it wouldn't affect your situation, unless you're only replacing cups -- what matters is the type of crank you have now (pre- or post-CPSC relative to manufacture year 1977), and what the current (satisfactory length) spindle length is. If you provide that info, I can give you some more data on the SER you should be looking for. If the 1976 Crescent has the original BB, then it probably has pre-CPSC crank, with thin cups (those lacking machined rifling in the opening for the spindle). Also, checking the bearing diameter would be good, though it's probably 1/4". All of that info would be useful if you were searching for a right cup replacement.

Thick or thin cups only affects the proper width of bearing track for spindles that fit; not the overall length, or the SER dimension.

Good luck. I have a 72' that I am building up now. If you want to find info on Crescents the BF member to contact is javal. He is Swedish and is very knowledgable in Swedish bicycles.

I've had my first one for awhile now. It came with the original bottom bracket. It was thick wall with the rifling. I have a set of 165mm strada cranks from before they started stamping the date codes. I milled off the back chainring mount and flipped the spindle to get the right chainline.

The one I'm trying to build up would be with a double Nuovo record with most likely pre CPSC cranks and shifters. I would expect to need a thick wall. Like I've said I have some thick wall French cups around that are thick with rifiling.

I wounder if Javal knows any way to interpret the serial numbers?

Justin (ColonelJLloyd) didn't say what chainline he ended up with, but if it was about the center of a typical cogset (43.5 mm from frame centerline), then you'd want to move it right 2.5 mm for a double crankset, meaning add 5 mm total to the width. 107 + 5 = 112. Now, Campy had a 112 typical spindle length earlier on (pre-CPSC), and then went to one 1.5 mm longer on the right side later (post-CPSC); so it would be helpful if Justin also added which type of Strada crank he used.

I didn't measure the chainline; just eyeballed it. If anything, I think the spindle was a bit long. I also couldn't tell if the spindle was symmetrical or asymmetrical. I convinced myself it was the latter and actually flipped the spindle around in an effort to move the crank in.

The Strada crank I was using has a 1977 date code. I was using a flip/flop hub with 120mm spacing.

I ended up selling that BB and the frame now sits in the corner of my basement. I'll eventually build it back up. I do know that I ordered a VO Grand Cru BB with a 103mm spindle to use when I decide to build it back up. I didn't leave myself any notes as to how I decided on that length.

I've had my first one for awhile now. It came with the original bottom bracket. It was thick wall with the rifling. I have a set of 165mm strada cranks from before they started stamping the date codes. I milled off the back chainring mount and flipped the spindle to get the right chainline.

The one I'm trying to build up would be with a double Nuovo record with most likely pre CPSC cranks and shifters. I would expect to need a thick wall. Like I've said I have some thick wall French cups around that are thick with rifiling.

I wounder if Javal knows any way to interpret the serial numbers?

Yes he knows somebody that used to/still works at MCB. I gave him mine and he found out for me. Let me see if I can dig up his email. He was very nice and very helpful.

He posted in this thread today. Look up his post and send him a PM.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/775470-Pic.-of-my-bike

I have a 1976 Crescent that has a Swiss threaded bottom bracket, and I love it. I've had it for about 3 or 4 years now. So when I saw another one that appears to be the exact same year on ebay for next to nothing I snapped it up. Problem is the one I picked up wasn't supplied with a bottom bracket. As many of you probably know Swiss threaded bottom brackets are only currently made by Phil Wood and are over $150. I have been looking for spare parts for these Swiss threaded bottom brackets for awhile now and I already have some adjustable French cups and axles and such, so I only need the fixed cup. If anybody is sitting on a Campagnolo cup stamped 35X1G I would LOVE to buy it off you. I would even be willing to buy a non Campy fixed cup, but Campy would be best because I'm going to build it up with a complete Nuovo Record group and would prefer to keep it original.

I saw a guy in this thread http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-735327.html had a picture of one and he was looking for French ones. I tried to msg him, but it won't let me private msg until I have 50 post. So this is my attempt to reach somebody anybody that might be sitting on one of these.

Between my sons and me, we've got three Crescent racing bikes from the Reynolds 531/Nervex lugs era (c. 1963-1980). They've all got French-threaded bottom brackets - and as far as I know that was the standard for all their racing bikes during that time span. You may want to check with http://www.cykelhobby.com/ , as Kjell seems to know everything worth knowing about Swedish racing bikes.

Mine is french as well.