Bicycle Mechanics - Broken spokes... Do I have a right to be mad at my LBS?

I had 2 wheels ready to be taken in, they both suffered some broken spokes. One wheel because the chain was thrown in, and the other just from ordinary use.

Anyways, so I take the wheels in to my local LBS. I ask them to replace the broken spokes and true the wheels, which would be about $25 each wheel. I came back to get my wheels and they looked good. I discovered an axle was replaced on the older wheel - bringing the total higher than the cost of a brand new wheel. No big deal I thought, I had a good wheel now.

So I'm riding a bike with Wheel 1, and very shortly after I realize the wheel is coming out of true, badly. One of the spokes had somehow broken!! I took the wheel back to my LBS and dropped it off with my receipt. I came back to a newly fixed up wheel and they said they wouldn't charge me. Good, I thought.


So fast forward 2 days... Both wheels break another spoke or two and come out of true. Frustrated, I return BOTH wheels to the LBS and explain what happened. Then, I'm told that there are apparently "weak" spokes in my rims which will break because they compromise the wheel. Well then, why in the hell did they not replace the screwed up spokes when they were fixing the wheels the first time around? =/


I'm thinking about going back and trying to get them to make things right. Is it appropriate to do so? I'm in college right now and money isn't something I have a whole lot of.. I can't afford to be paying for the same things over and over

spokes breaking at the heads? inadequate tension will fatigue the spokes rapidly and they will break, usually at the head. low tension can unscrew the nipple from the spoke too. history of the wheel?

Not sure if they're breaking at the "heads", but the nipple-end is still intact, the part that attaches to the hub is off the hook. Sorry if I meant "broken" spokes as in they snapped in half, but in my situation, they just came unhinged from the hub. Just as bad to me...

One wheel is an araya from an 80s nishiki modulus. The other is a lower end mavic from a 90's specialized allez.

Do you have the right to be frustrated you broke spokes? Sure you do. Is it the shop's fault? Probably not. It is not an uncommon situation at all. The wheels went out of true when the spokes broke, this stressed the other spokes in the rim, weakening them. New spokes get put in and wheel gets trued, this stresses the already weakened spokes more, and the domino effect begins. This can be made even worse if the wheels are ridden on with the broke spokes. Why the hell didn't the shop replace the weak spokes? There is really no way to tell which ones are weakened, when they break they break. This is not the shop's fault in my opinion. How about specifics? What kind of bike, how old? I would have appreciated the shop calling me if they had to do extra work {axle replacement** especially if it would have been cheaper to replace the wheel.

To me it sounds like you are right to be a little annoyed that they didn't fully diagnose the problem. But it also sounds like when you brought the wheel back once, they tried to make it right. And when you came back twice, they let you know you have a more serious problem... I dunno. Probably the wheel should be rebuilt totally.

I do think you have a right to be mad that they replace the axle without asking you. They shouldn't be doing work that costs you more money without informing you. But it might be a little late to go down that road.

Seems to me that it is time to have these wheels rebuilt with all new spokes, depending on the condition of the rims and hubs it may be better to get all new wheels. I understand that new wheels or even a rebuild may be out of the question for you, but I think that is the only thing that will end your frustration.

Do you have the right to be frustrated you broke spokes? Sure you do. Is it the shop's fault? Probably not. It is not an uncommon situation at all. The wheels went out of true when the spokes broke, this stressed the other spokes in the rim, weakening them.


Nope.

Spokes fail due to fatigue, with the number of cycles survived dependent on average stress (tension plus stress in the parts of the elbows which weren't taken past their elastic limit during the forming operation) and magnitude of the variation (about 750 times a mile spokes pass the bottom of the wheel and see their tension drop based on how much of your weight is carried by that wheel).

All the spokes have seen the same number of cycles and all of the spokes in one group have seen about the same average stress so you can expect them to break about the same time.

Neither the tension changes resulting from broken spokes (even if you tighten their neighbors to compensate) nor the fatigue cycles from a few days or months are significant compared to that.



Why the hell didn't the shop replace the weak spokes?
One broken spoke might be a fluke. If that's all it was as a paying customer you'll be happiest paying whatever they charge for spoke replacement instead of whatever they charge for a full wheel build (can be $70-$90 + spokes at $1.20 each in expensive areas).

Do you have the right to be frustrated you broke spokes? Sure you do. Is it the shop's fault? Probably not. It is not an uncommon situation at all. The wheels went out of true when the spokes broke, this stressed the other spokes in the rim, weakening them. New spokes get put in and wheel gets trued, this stresses the already weakened spokes more, and the domino effect begins. This can be made even worse if the wheels are ridden on with the broke spokes. Why the hell didn't the shop replace the weak spokes? There is really no way to tell which ones are weakened, when they break they break. This is not the shop's fault in my opinion. How about specifics? What kind of bike, how old? I would have appreciated the shop calling me if they had to do extra work {axle replacement** especially if it would have been cheaper to replace the wheel.

Hmm, I've put almost 9k miles on my Hardrock and have not as yet broken a spoke on it. I have put 2,400 miles on my Seek. Again no broken spokes. I have friends who work at my favorite LBS who have also have put on impressive amounts of miles on their bikes/wheels without braking spokes. So how common is it for cyclists to brake spokes?

I ride on streets that are paved with cobblestones, with cracks in the pavement.

On my Seek I average between 120 - 140 miles a week. As I said riding on streets that are paved in cobblestone, or roads with cracks in them and on the local rail-to-trail the Pinellas Trail.

As others have said,it's not the shops fault. Once you break spokes and replace them,the tension gets thrown off on the other spokes. The only way to really fix the problem is to re-tension all of the spokes. The problem is,it's not cost effective.

The shop should have explained this to you though.

I'm thinking about going back and trying to get them to make things right. Is it appropriate to do so? I'm in college right now and money isn't something I have a whole lot of.. I can't afford to be paying for the same things over and over
Hard to say since it depends on exactly what you told the LBS and asked them to do in the first place. They had no way of knowing exactly what shape the existing spokes were in when you brought in the wheels. So if you asked them to replace the broken ones and true the wheels then they just did what you asked them. If the remaining spokes had been in good shape then that would have been the appropriate action. But if those spokes were also near their fatigue limit then it would have been best to have the whole wheel rebuilt with all new spokes.

+1 with Drew.

Your spokes are old, all of them. Replacing one broken spoke does not autmatically place the others in new condition.:D

The only real fix is to replace all the spokes and rim (they're old). Shop tried to save you money hoping for the best, didn't work out.

Rule of thumb: once spokes start breaking, suspect all of them. As Drew said, spokes fail through fatigue. They don't fail all at once (usually), but when one goes, the rest are ready to go.

Replacing one or two spokes might have resolved the problem. What they should have told you when you came in the second time is "All of the spokes are toast. We can either replace all of them for $XX or sell you a new wheel for $XX." If they wanted to be nice to you, they would pro-rate the cost of the rebuild or new wheels by what you'd already spent.

FWIW: I've built wheels for 30 years. Once I learned how to build them right, I didn't break spokes through fatigue. Ever.

Rule of thumb: once spokes start breaking, suspect all of them. As Drew said, spokes fail through fatigue. They don't fail all at once (usually), but when one goes, the rest are ready to go.

Replacing one or two spokes might have resolved the problem. What they should have told you when you came in the second time is "All of the spokes are toast. We can either replace all of them for $XX or sell you a new wheel for $XX." If they wanted to be nice to you, they would pro-rate the cost of the rebuild or new wheels by what you'd already spent.

FWIW: I've built wheels for 30 years. Once I learned how to build them right, I didn't break spokes through fatigue. Ever.

Ever?

and the related word...

Never?

Sure about that? Come on, be honest...

=8-)

You know... a guitar tuner and a spoke wrench would have avoided most of this.. in my uninformed opinion.

I'll fix one broken spoke- with the warning that this may the beginning of more trouble. 1 spoke might be a fluke, but 2 are a symptom. If it comes in again, I advise looking at a rebuild, or replacement with a more suitable wheel.

Problem is for us shop guys, that kind of honesty often creates a shopper, who is now going to spend hours "researching" AKA "becoming hopelessly mired in a profusion of choices" online, rather than go with a tried and true and well-backed wheel that we offer (usually at very comparable prices, I might add).

I can understand why the shop kept trying to fix it, but without an upfront explanation of the possibilities of future problems, I can understand why the OP is concerned.

It's also becoming clear that in our throw away culture, even when something can be repaired well, it is often chucked for a "new" thing, often of inferior quality. I recently had a gentlemen who had commuted for years on an old Raleigh 3 speed. It came in with every symptom of broken pawl springs in the rear hub. I stock them, and quoted $60 for parts and labor and told him he'd probably get another 30 years out of the hub! He was aghast, and left grumbling. He returned with a Roadmaster BSO from Walmart bragging how he got a "brand new" bike for only $20 more....."oh, and it doesn't shift very well, and the brakes aren't working, so I need you to fix them. He didn't seem to mind spending more money on it! In the end, he spent more than double my estimate for a bike that might last a year as much as he rides.....crazy.....:twitchy:

The history and age of the wheels would help. If they where older badly worn wheels with a lot of weak spokes the shop should have considered selling you new or good used wheels as it would likely be cheaper than replacing the spokes and relacing the wheels at LBS labor prices. I would definetly go back and see if the shop is willing to do something to fix the problem.

You know... a guitar tuner and a spoke wrench would have avoided most of this.. in my uninformed opinion.

Guitar tuner? Or an Android app that accepts the spoke length and compares the pitch from mic to the calculated optimum.

Get a spoke wrench and a handfull of spokes. When one breaks just replace it yourself and true it as best that you can. This is a low cost approach and you get to learn something at the same time. Wheels don't need to be perfect to roll.

Ever?

and the related word...

Never?

Sure about that? Come on, be honest...

=8-)

There are people with no fatigue failures after 200,000 - 300,000 miles on a set of spokes.

Those of us riding a more moderate 4000-5000 miles annually should be able to make it to our graves without such a failure, especially if we adopt new technology like cassette hubs, power meter hubs, disc brake hubs, etc. as it comes along.

There are people with no fatigue failures after 200,000 - 300,000 miles on a set of spokes.

Those of us riding a more moderate 4000-5000 miles annually should be able to make it to our graves without such a failure, especially if we adopt new technology like cassette hubs, power meter hubs, disc brake hubs, etc. as it comes along.

And went through the trouble of posting a straw man because?

=8-)

And went through the trouble of posting a straw man because?
=8-)

To see if he could get yet another jackass, trolling comment
in a wheel related thread out of you ?

Am I close ? C'mon now, be honest.:roflmao2:

There are people with no fatigue failures after 200,000 - 300,000 miles on a set of spokes.

Those of us riding a more moderate 4000-5000 miles annually should be able to make it to our graves without such a failure, especially if we adopt new technology like cassette hubs, power meter hubs, disc brake hubs, etc. as it comes along.And went through the trouble of posting a straw man because?

=8-)

As I've said I've put almost 9k miles on my Hardrock and haven't broken a spoke yet. The bike that I am currently riding has almost 3k miles on it 2,500 of those I have put on myself. And guess what, still no broken spokes on it either.

So please explain how it is that people can log substantial amounts of miles on their bikes without ever breaking a spoke.

You didn't say if your spokes were a top brand like DT or W.

A shop has no way to know if the wheel's spokes are well-used to the point of having reached their FATIGUE LIMIT. At that point the spokes will no longer endure the large numbers of stress cycles of normal use.
A wheel that breaks a second spoke is a prime candidate for spoke replacement, or the broken spokes may become a weekly or daily occurrance!

Cheap, generic spokes often have a service limit of less than a few thousand miles, where every spoke becomes unreliable.
Quality spokes last easily ten times that long. It's all in the metal and the processing that turns the wire into a spoke.

Another considerations is un-evenness of the spoke tensioning. If the rim has ever been bent, this is more likely, since the trueing process can introduce wildly varying spoke tension. Note that left-side and right-side spokes normally have a different tension specification (kilograms force tension).

The other consideration is the suitability of the particular wheel for the load and usage it is subjected to. A lightweight rim or cheaply-made single-walled rim will not handle heavy loads (or abuse) as well as a heavier, double-walled, heat-treated rim. Spoke count and tensioning are another big consideration.

All in all, it sounds like the work was a reasonable gamble on your part and the shop's part, but it doesn't now sound like the wheel is worthy of repeating the repairs.
Take the wheel back and ask them for their opinion. Be sure the person you talk to is up to date on the wheel's recent history. Perhaps they'll cut a little slack on the cost of a better wheel?

Guitar tuner? Or an Android app that accepts the spoke length and compares the pitch from mic to the calculated optimum.

Neat! I should have known they'd have one by now.

Jeez, just buy a Park tensiometer. I bought one and it's some of the best money I've spent.

And either way, with the tensiometer or with sound pitch methods, you've got to know the spoke mid-section diameter, so a $10 digital caliper from Harbor Freight will be useful here, plus will measure seatposts, handlebars, ball-bearings, bolts, washer thicknesses, even chain wear (quite accurately if you know what you're doing).

Ever?

and the related word...

Never?

Sure about that? Come on, be honest...

=8-)

I'll swear on a stack of (insert favorite holy book here)(s) as tall as I am. I have not broken a single spoke through fatigue in the past 20-ish years, since I learned to build wheels with high, even spoke tension. Granted, my wheels tend to be conservative (usually 36-spoke rears) and built with quality components (Mavic and Velocity rims, DT and Wheelsmith spokes). But not one has broken in normal use.

Have I broken spokes? Yes, indeedy. A couple broke after I jammed the chain between the cassette and spokes. But they were obviously damaged- the chain had carved a neat flat on each spoke, which ended in a curlicue. I'd guess that their thickness had been reduced by a third, with a great stress riser at the end of the gouge. No wonder they broke- it's a wonder they survived for a couple weeks after the damage.

I've also reused spokes after wearing out rims. I disassemble the wheel carefully, and mark which spokes were on the outside of the spoke flange and which were on the inside. This keeps the bend from being flexed out of its original "built" angle, which should keep them from fatiguing. I have a couple wheels like that- so far, no spokes have broken on them, either.

Wow...guess folks are tired of watching the debates...

Point is...someone with a history of making "ever" and "never" statements did it again...and when I call them on it - i.e., ask a question that begs a little honesty - someone else comes along tossing in a straw man.

Spokes don't last forever - but there are ways to make most if not all last beyond a year or the lifespan of a single wheel, sometimes 2 or 3 wheels. The 15g DTs in my Tommasini are in their 3rd use.

We've beat that horse so many times it beats Obama in the latest straw polls.

Here's my bottom line though....

When other wheelbuilders claim to have come up with some kind of "formula" whereupon they don't get broken spokes anymore - "ever" or "never" - myself and two other people I know who have built thousands of wheels themselves since the 70s sing one word in unison:

"BULL****!"

=8-)

Not sure if they're breaking at the "heads", but the nipple-end is still intact, the part that attaches to the hub is off the hook. Sorry if I meant "broken" spokes as in they snapped in half, but in my situation, they just came unhinged from the hub. Just as bad to me...

One wheel is an araya from an 80s nishiki modulus. The other is a lower end mavic from a 90's specialized allez.

Well, that seems to be a different problem...i.e. the spokes (was it the ones they replaced or the older ones they didn't replace?) detached from the hub? Believe it or not spokes are not all alike and the LBS may have used spokes that were incompatable with your hubs at the hub attachment holes. If so, it would be a problem for the LBS.

I build, maintain, and retrue all of my wheels, and have been doing so since the mid 1970's. That includes replacing one or more trashed spokes in a wheel or replacing all of them. I've yet to have an old wheel do what yours did when I replaced a couple of trashed old spokes with new ones. I understand the argument that one a spoke gives out due to "fatigue" in an ancient wheel the others may be ready to crap out too, but I've never had that happen to me. Of course I make sure that teh replacement spokes are exactly like the NOS ones for the wheel.

Many times I've encountered properly-tensioned, accurately-tensioned, sufficiently-robust wheels that "ate" spokes.

Once the (albeit generic) spokes reached a certain mileage, spoke breakage became a ~weekly event that once culminated in the sudden breakage of 4 consecutive drive-side spokes. This was in an accurately-tensioned wheel, within 10% variation! I can't say that the wheel didn't give me several warnings, since I had replaced 3 spokes already.

On wheelsets, I've had rear wheels that had to be re-spoked, followed by the front wheel a year or so later.
Usually, the worst spokes have been generic Asian stainless-steel spokes. The worst of these can give out in less than a year, but some are also very good, lasting through many years of regular use. Big, big difference, but no way to tell by looking at them.

I've also reused spokes after wearing out rims. I disassemble the wheel carefully, and mark which spokes were on the outside of the spoke flange and which were on the inside. This keeps the bend from being flexed out of its original "built" angle, which should keep them from fatiguing. I have a couple wheels like that- so far, no spokes have broken on them, either.

No need to do that. De-tension but leave each nipple engaged, tape the new rim to the old one in 2-3 places, transfer spokes one at a time, remove old rim, and tension + true as you would normally.

There are some hints though in the Asian spokes that can be used to separate cheap-cheap from cheap-decent:

1. Extremly high polish versus polish and semi-polish.
2. 7.0mm elbows versus 6.1/6.2/6.3mm elbows.
3. Very stiff or high resistance to flex versus a flexible feel.
4. Heads floating around in the bag or box versus no head floating around in the bag or box.

A stainless steel Asian spoke that has a regular polish or semi-polish finish, tight elbows, a flexible feel similar to that of DT and Wheelsmith, with intact heads has a good chance of sticking around for awhile in a properly tensioned wheel.

=8-)

Rule of thumb: once spokes start breaking, suspect all of them. As Drew said, spokes fail through fatigue. They don't fail all at once (usually), but when one goes, the rest are ready to go.

Replacing one or two spokes might have resolved the problem. What they should have told you when you came in the second time is "All of the spokes are toast. We can either replace all of them for $XX or sell you a new wheel for $XX." If they wanted to be nice to you, they would pro-rate the cost of the rebuild or new wheels by what you'd already spent.

FWIW: I've built wheels for 30 years. Once I learned how to build them right, I didn't break spokes through fatigue. Ever.

+1

Well, the total of everything added up was $75.. I could have bought new rims for $40 a piece. I should have done that.

Is there a practical way to install spokes and true the rims myself? I have a spoke wrench, but I'm not confident I know how to do it properly...

And if the shop had taken a look at your wheels and said, "Um, yeah, things look pretty bad with these, we'd advise either a new wheelset or complete rebuilds with new spokes on these wheels." you'd not have thought anything like, "Wait, I just came in to get a few spokes replaced, why are they trying to sell me service or stuff I didn't ask for?!?", right...?

No-win situation for the shop.

There's books and vids about building your own wheels. Keep track of your time, so you can tell whether or not the shop tries to rip you off with their pricing on wheel builds...

And if the shop had taken a look at your wheels and said, "Um, yeah, things look pretty bad with these, we'd advise either a new wheelset or complete rebuilds with new spokes on these wheels." you'd not have thought anything like, "Wait, I just came in to get a few spokes replaced, why are they trying to sell me service or stuff I didn't ask for?!?", right...?

No-win situation for the shop.

There's books and vids about building your own wheels. Keep track of your time, so you can tell whether or not the shop tries to rip you off with their pricing on wheel builds...

If they had advised that the rims should be replaced, I would have done that, I was kind of expecting that too for the older wheel. Now I'm just going to end up buying a new wheelset anyway :/