Commuting - Cagers too Polite (!)

Sometimes we Canadians are just too polite!

I know I probably shouldn't complain, but it's driving me nuts...
My "alternate" route takes me home mostly via quiet residential streets with many "uncontrolled intersections" (no stop or yield signs, or lights).

The problem I often encounter is that motorists stop for me when THEY have the right-of-way! In some areas this even happens when I have a stop sign! I can usually count on this happening at least 2 or 3 times per trip. It's not that I'm flying along at high speed and their afraid I won't stop... It typically happens once I have already stopped - they also stop, and motion for me to go!

Maybe I'm being stubborn, but I refuse to go. I shake my head "no" and motion for them to go ahead.
I guess I just want to be treated as a vehicle & don't want to be any part of promoting cyclists as pedestrians.

Anyone else out there have this problem? If so, what do you do? Should I just accept the offer & go? I want people to be aware that cyclists are vehicles, but I also know they are probably a little miffed that I won't go after they go to the trouble to stop for me.

I have that happen to me now and then as well. I nod my head in thanks and go, figuring that they're being polite and why decline politeness? It's not like we're at a big intersection obstructing other cars.

While we're on the topic of politeness..... there's this one T-intersection on my ride home that has a stop only on the section where the road ends, thus you have to turn right or left. I have to turn left so I wait for the traffic to clear. I've noticed that about 90% of cars approaching the T and wanting to turn right will use their blinkers as if to say, "Hey, I see you waiting to turn left, so I'm letting you know I'm turning right so that you can proceed and know I won't hit you." I've been at that same intersection in my car and it's not the same.... no one uses their blinkers. There's something about being a cyclist waiting at a stop that makes people turning right use their blinkers. I appreciate their using the blinkers because sometimes there will be a line of cars approaching and when they all use their blinkers, I can go and not have to wait. I hate it when I'm in my car and wait and wait and turns out all the cars approaching me turn right without using their blinkers! Grrrrrr! :mad:

I havent seen uncontrolled intersections in Montreal, but there are plenty with stop signs in all directions. If I see a car approaching on the cross street at the same time as me, I slow down and wave it through as I approach the stop sign. Usually they then wave me through, and I proceed without stopping, giving a thank you as I pass. Less delay for both of us. If there are more vehicles around you have to be more careful, but these 4 way stops are usually in low traffic areas.

I often notice this in my neighborhood. I suspect that people who do this have had enough experience with unpredictable cyclists and do not want to risk a collision in the intersection. Once it becomes obvious that they want me to go first, I oblige them and usually give them a friendly wave of thanks. It never hurts to encourage bike awarness.

I don't like it when it happens. I don't like when anybody on the road acts unpredictably.

When it happens, I just go, cause it'll take more time to get them to do the right thing and it might piss them off thinking that I'm an ungratefull cyclist.

It happens to me less now that I have adopted somewhat of a foreshadowing technique. When I approach stop signs, I slow down well before the white line, and begin to slowly pedal backwards. For some reason, this helps them understand that I intend to stop for the sign, and it also gives helps them realize that they were there first. Drivers get confused when I track stand (or try to!) because to them, if your foot is on the pedal, you're going to go go go! so pedaling backwards shows them that I'm not going.

ah, i see the poll is up. the entry "Pretend not to see them, look up at the sky & wait for them to give up" is what i do most often. however, it's pretty rare that a driver is going to wave me though in new york, but it does happen once in a while.

Well, here in Boston, it's much less of a problem. I usually only get that once a week if that, but it's still annoying. I can deal with the condescension--after all, they're just trying to be nice. But the fact is, they're wasting both our time. See, if they would just take their right-of-way and continue through the intersection, we'd all be where we want to be faster. It takes them more time to stop, wave at you, you to figure out that's really what they're doing, and move into the intersection than if they'd just kept going.

Meanwhile, it can be dangerous too. Motorists behind them may think they're stopped for another reason (maybe they're making a left, maybe they lost their Gatorade under the seat, who knows?) and pops right to pass them and T-bones your soft squishee body. Or what if someone's coming from the other direction that you don't notice because you're so busy negotiating with the first driver?

No sir, I don't like it.

Meanwhile, it can be dangerous too. Motorists behind them may think they're stopped for another reason (maybe they're making a left, maybe they lost their Gatorade under the seat, who knows?) and pops right to pass them and T-bones your soft squishee body. Or what if someone's coming from the other direction that you don't notice because you're so busy negotiating with the first driver?

No sir, I don't like it.

I look for those types of things before I accept their gesture. And, I give a waive of thanks too.

I don't have that problem where I live now, but I did see it quite a bit in Fredericton, where I went to school. I felt the same way you do-it was as though I wanted to teach the motorists that I was just another vehicle, and to treat me as such. Very frustrating. Back in toronto, I get cut off, honked at, and nearly killed so often when I am obeying the law, that I could care less what any driver thinks of my cycling when decide not to. As long as I make it to my destination in one piece, I am happy. I take advantage of every opportunity I get to put the screws to the car drivers. It is really quite disfunctional.

When a person does something out of the realm of predictability the chance for an accident increases.

When I am waved through by a motorist I usually plant both feet on the ground and ignore them until they do the correct thing and go ahead of me.

If I have the right of way in a situation where a motorist may try to overtake and deny my priviledge I make slightly exaggerated moves that let them know I am getting in my pedals and moving with no hesitation on my part.

Meanwhile, it can be dangerous too. Motorists behind them may think they're stopped for another reason (maybe they're making a left, maybe they lost their Gatorade under the seat, who knows?) and pops right to pass them and T-bones your soft squishee body. Or what if someone's coming from the other direction that you don't notice because you're so busy negotiating with the first driver?

No sir, I don't like it.
These are definately concerns for me as well. I also know that if I was in a car & went ahead, they could proceed & I'd be at fault in the resulting colision. There were a few cases of this stunt being pulled a while back (people did it intentionally to get insurance money).

Maybe I'm being stubborn, but I refuse to go. I shake my head "no" and motion for them to go ahead.
I guess I just want to be treated as a vehicle & don't want to be any part of promoting cyclists as pedestrians.

Anyone else out there have this problem? If so, what do you do? Should I just accept the offer & go? I want people to be aware that cyclists are vehicles, but I also know they are probably a little miffed that I won't go after they go to the trouble to stop for me.

Depends on my mood. Usually I'm in a grouchy mood and insist they take their turn. Maybe this situation should be called the "Suburban Standoff"? Once in awhile, I will accept the gesture and get moving. I don't know why.

Of course we are assuming the driver actually knows they have the right of way. (that's why we think they are acting unpredictably) I think most drivers here couldn't tell you who has the right of way when two or more people pull up to a stop at the same time. As cyclists, sometimes I think we are a little more aware of the driving laws.
Either way, I will always wave, thanking the driver for their kindness, and go. Bike awareness is very important to us.

Of course we are assuming the driver actually knows they have the right of way. (that's why we think they are acting unpredictably) I think most drivers here couldn't tell you who has the right of way when two or more people pull up to a stop at the same time. As cyclists, sometimes I think we are a little more aware of the driving laws.
Either way, I will always wave, thanking the driver for their kindness, and go. Bike awareness is very important to us.
You're probably right about most drivers not being fully aware of traffic rules - especially as they apply to cyclists.

I kinda feel sorry for these people... I think I'd soon learn to hate cyclists if I thought I had to yield to them in all situations!

It's true. I once had a conversation with someone as I was getting on my bike to leave. He asked me about riding in the street and I said, oh yeah for sure. And then he was like, "That's great. It's just like being a pedestrian, you've always got the right-of-way, right?" And he was really surprised when I explained to him that wasn't the case and that legally bicycles are considered vehicles in the same sense as motor vehicles.

Of course we are assuming the driver actually knows they have the right of way. (that's why we think they are acting unpredictably) I think most drivers here couldn't tell you who has the right of way when two or more people pull up to a stop at the same time. As cyclists, sometimes I think we are a little more aware of the driving laws.


That's my thinking, as well. We are also more aware of what constitutes good/sensible/
predictable driving behavior, because we need to be in order to survive. Biking makes me
a better driver... how odd!

Oh, and if a stop-signed intersection has a car approaching, I try to catch the driver's
eye, just so they know I see them, and sometimes I wave them through. I also
stop pedalling, but I just got my new fixie yesterday, and I don't know how drivers will
react to continuous pedalling.

I didn't vote, since what I do depends on the specific situation.

I ride thru four 4-way intersections on my commute. I used to stop at every one - for the principal of obeying the law, set an example, and yes to be what I percieved as safer.

Then I stopped stopping when no cars or bicycles were comming in any direction (including behind me) and no pedestrians were near interection - in all cases I have very good view of approaching traffic and sidewalks.

Then I stopped stopping even when there were cars approaching at a distance and speed where I would clear intersection even if they decided not to stop (which they sometimes do and I have observed)

Why? Because dealing with the mixed nature of driver behavior when confronted at 4-way stop sign is do damn confusing it is easier to avoid the situation/interaction completely.

Now to get on to this 'mixed behavior'
1. I get there first, stop. Car arrives, barely stops and enters intersection when they should not.
2. I get there second, stop. Car already there still refuses to go. So I go anyway.
3. I get there first, stop. Car coming up behind me does a rolling stop and passes me or even worse right hooks me.

Al

I also
stop pedalling, but I just got my new fixie yesterday, and I don't know how drivers will
react to continuous pedalling.

I drive a car and I cycle. I know when I am in my car I don't notice (unless I am particulararly curious about a particular cyclist) if a cyclist is pedaling or not.

Al

I didn't vote, since what I do depends on the specific situation...
...Why? Because dealing with the mixed nature of driver behavior when confronted at 4-way stop sign is do damn confusing it is easier to avoid the situation/interaction completely.

Actually, I was not referring to 4-way stops (that's a whole other issue). I was mainly reffering to intersections were I have a stop sign & the car is on a through-street with no stop sign.

Actually, I was not referring to 4-way stops (that's a whole other issue). I was mainly reffering to intersections were I have a stop sign & the car is on a through-street with no stop sign.

I don't think that's ever happened to me, but I wouldn't go. I'd wave them through, especially if there's more than one lane and there could be another car coming in the other lane that could creme you. Even if there's not, there could be a bike coming on the shoulder or somebody impatient could go around that person.

If they insisted, I'd probably unclip both feet and stand until they went.

Actually, I was not referring to 4-way stops (that's a whole other issue). I was mainly reffering to intersections were I have a stop sign & the car is on a through-street with no stop sign.

Oh, I misunderstood too. Never had that happen.

Rarely happens here, I'm usually more concerned with drivers proceeding where they don't have the right of way. However, if they stop and yield, I just go. It may or may not be an ideal situation with regard to traffic flow, but it's the lesser of two evils. If I stop and wave them through or try to explain the situation to them, we're both going to be there for twice as long. It's easier to just get out of there.

On my commute there is a bike path that crosses two quite busy streets that are two lanes each way. There is a stop sign for the traffic on the bike path and only a "Trail Crossing" sign for the cars. Sometimes I stand there for a few minutes waiting for a gap and sometimes cars stop. I just proceed when it is safe. With two lanes each way that can be interesting because you run into the case where one car stops and others pull around the stopped car and keep going. When that happens and a clearing isn't going to happen for some time I wave the car through. Remember, no wait is as inconvenient as being road pizza.

I am more at ease waving them through. I'm not looking for kindness. Just fairness. If I have the right of way, it's my turn. I always signal my turns, so so should they. Just looking for equilibrium on the road.

I couldn't vote; I need at least another category of "some of the above" or "depends on the circumstances". Many times I'll see them wave me through, and I accept gladly and wave at them for the courtesy. Other times I shake my head and wave them through. It all just depends on my mood at the time, I suppose.

When I was young & foolish, I always accepted the offer & went on my way. Now that I am in the "old grouch" category, I just stand there & wave them on until they go. Then I give them a wave of thanks. I face this situation almost daily where my commute bike lane passes under the I-5 freeway. With the freeway behind me, the bike lane ends with 2 lanes of traffic on my left and the collector lane from the freeway offramp on my right. Cyclists have to cross the collector lane to reach the new bike lane. I ALWAYS stop & wave traffic on until there are no vehicles on the off ramp. Frequently some kind soul comes to a complete stop despite the several following cars approaching at 50-60 MPH! Scary. Particularly galling is when I am hammering along at 22-24 MPH but have to make a full stop when a single vehicle slows way down when they could have just maintained their speed with a mile or so to merge left while I cross safely behind them. I just wait them out every time but expect to witness a rear end stackup some day. Don

I also see this a lot when I have a stop sign & the vehicle doesn't. I just wave them on until they go.

I will wait as long as I have to until the car moves along. I've had too many close-calls where one person hesitates and the other person moves and everyone meets in the middle of the intersection. I would just as soon let the cars move along and I'll make up the time in the safety of being alone.

And a bit off topic, but I was telling one of my city planning professors about a close call today and he said that he hates when bikers act unpredicitably. He even suggested that all bikers should be required to ride on a shoulder or sidewalk! Good grief, I thought he was supposed to be helping create a friendlier city. I guess it shows that the people in power are concerned about one thing- moving cars faster.

The problem I often encounter is that motorists stop for me when THEY have the right-of-way!



So how when the driver gives you the right-of-way, it's against the law?

On my way home I have an expressway exit to contend with. There is a big speed difference because my road is going uphill about 6%, and the cars are coming down on my right. The expressway exit doesnt merge into the RH lane of the road but continues as the new RH lane. This is where I find my Third Eye Mirror most valuable, because I can keep a continuous watch on the traffic coming on the exit, while I continue plodding up the hill at the RH side of my lane. When I see a decent gap in the traffic I promptly move across the lane to my right. I have never experienced a car stop for me on that exit.

So how when the driver gives you the right-of-way, it's against the law?

It's not that it's against the law, it's that it is unpredicatable. I find it more of pain, because
I don't want to unclip and I want the car to clear the intersection like s/he's supposed to, so
I can quickly and safely go on my way. Instead, they do me a favor, and I end up falling on
my butt... Well, not really... Well, okay, once.

In the few hours I was in Germany, I got to drive around a bit, and the drivers there are
the most predictable and anal I've ever encountered. Forget to put on turn signal, go a
few miles over the speed limit, or miss your cue at a stop sign, and man, they let you
know it. I wonder if biking there is safer?

I get this a lot too. what I really hate is when I slow way down so I don't have to stop and they think I am going to go and they don't.
Had one guy on my right turning left wave me on and just as I started to go a pickup comes down. I could nto see him because of the parked cars. if I was not careful he would have gotten me.
then I was at a 4 way stop and when it was my turn (car accross from me was turning left) the ***** turned in front of me and flipped me off with a **** eating grin on her face(G)

AndrewP: your freeway ramp is just like mine except I approach on a level road & cars stop form me allmost every time! Don

In Santa Barbara it's all such a mess that when a car waves me through I nod and go.

Reason it's such a mess: In Isla Vista nearby the bikes are king. The do not stop at any intersection even if they have the stop sign and the cars do not. Once you spend any time there, you learn this and you accept it. So, there's that to contend with.

Then there are bike paths with stop signs crossing streets without stop signs. Cars have no idea that bike paths ever have stop signs so they stop thinking their being nice, or maybe in fear of creaming you.

Then there's a general unpredictability at all intersections. I swear the social order has completely broken down when it comes to right-of-way because so many drivers don't even pretend to stop anymore.

Well, it looks like my decision about what to do in this circumstance is no easier (the poll at this point shows about 1/2 of you saying stay put & 1/2 refusing in some manner).

After reading some of the replys though, I think I'll soften my stubborn possition a little & accept the offer to go (if it's safe).

happens to me in calgary all the time. depends on my mood. i usually go, but if i've had a bad day at work, i plant both my feet firmly on the ground, signalling that i'm not going anywhere fast, then wave them thru while yelling, "You have the ****ing right of way @$$hole!, you could get me killed!" or something to the effect.

happens to me in calgary all the time. depends on my mood. i usually go, but if i've had a bad day at work, i plant both my feet firmly on the ground, signalling that i'm not going anywhere fast, then wave them thru while yelling, "You have the ****ing right of way @$$hole!, you could get me killed!" or something to the effect.

Exactly.

As for the poll, a year ago I would have put that I accept and go through but I've had more close calls with situations like those described here. The one that put me off went like this:

I was heading home after work on 11th St. in Midtown, coming to T St. 11th has a stop sign, T does not. A driver heading from my left to right on T stops right in the middle of the street, even though she has no stop sign, and waves at me to go through. I think about it for a sec and then start to go. Just then a car coming up behind her gets impatient and passes her on her right -- which is about 6 inches from my front wheel. So her misguided politeness nearly got me killed.

Now I refuse every time. Nicely, though. I try to give a big smile and a big sweep of my hand to say, "No, please! After you!"

I have a few trail stop signs (at road intersections) on my commute, and I'd say 4 out of 5 times, if there's a car coming, it'll stop. Doesn't matter if I've already stopped, foot down, motionless. They still stop.

I'll look at the driver. The driver looks at me. I keep looking at the driver. Then the driver waves me across. Whatever. If they want to be stupid and stop for no reason, I'll take advantage of 'em. I don't acknowledge it with a wave or anything. I just ride through.

All it does is encourage people to blow stop signs on the trail, so yes, it does annoy me when they do it.

happens to me in calgary all the time. depends on my mood. i usually go, but if i've had a bad day at work, i plant both my feet firmly on the ground, signalling that i'm not going anywhere fast, then wave them thru while yelling, "You have the ****ing right of way @$$hole!, you could get me killed!" or something to the effect.
You may feel that way, but screaming insults at someone who percieves they are doing you a favor is not the right way to get someone on your side. Instead you need to polititely re-educate them that their good intentions are actually bad.

Al

You may feel that way, but screaming insults at someone who percieves they are doing you a favor is not the right way to get someone on your side. Instead you need to polititely re-educate them that their good intentions are actually bad.

Al
you are right. maybe i'll point at my stop sign next time.

you are right. maybe i'll point at my stop sign next time.
Thats a good idea. I was trying to think of what one could say loudly and simply that would get the polite message across, like "I follow all traffic rules" or "Please use your right of way as it keeps traffic flowing safer" but pointing at stop sign kinda says it all.

By the way I too get frustrated with car drivers that do things where they think they are helping, but instead mess up your flow. Like the guy I was behind to the left of his center this morning who was making a right turn and was looking at me in rear view and then just before his turn stopped and waved me by to his right. I was planning and tried to give the body signals (by being to the left) that I was going to pass him on left once he started turning. Of course I still did but had to go past his stopped car close the the traffic in the adjacent lane.

Al

Like the guy I was behind to the left of his center this morning who was making a right turn and was looking at me in rear view and then just before his turn stopped and waved me by to his right.

That's classic! :D

Meanwhile, it can be dangerous too. Motorists behind them may think they're stopped for another reason ...

Bingo. One of those nice people almost got me killed a few months ago.

It was a two-lane road. The big, black SUV with tinted windows, in the right lane, was stopped for no apparent reason with two cars behind it (I figured it was turning right into a parking lot but was waiting for something to get out of its way. I was on my motorcycle, coming up behind it in the left lane.

Just as I got up to them another car shot out from the right (just in front of the SUV) to turn left onto the road I was on, and crossed my lane right in front of me!! The blasted SUV had been waiving it through, and because the SUV was so big and had tinted windows, I couldn't see it coming (and obviously it couldn't see me either). I slammed on the brakes and just barely avoided T-boning it. GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

Here is an example I deal with nearly daily as I cross lots of x-walks.

I am approaching x-walk. Ped has entered, that is stepped off curb, then see me and stop, expecting me to continue illegally. Of course I saw them well before they saw me and had already started to slow prepared to stop before the x-walk.

Here is the problem: I want to wave them on as they have right of way, but that is very dangerous as there could be a car behind me that isn't planning on stopping.

But if I don't wave them on then we may play chicken to see who goes first. I usually stop and they eventually get going with a shrug. Of course this whole incident wastes both of our time and typically in that time a 2nd ped or car come into the scene and the delay gets even longer. Arrrgggh.

It all boils down the the very important principle that if you (ped, cyclist or car) have the right of way and the way is clear it is safer to use it than to try and give it up.

Al

I have some sympathy for the motorists. There are many irresponsible cyclists in these parts. A stop sign is just a reminder to get up a full head of steam before the intersection.

When I drive, I don't take the cyclists' stopping where they're supposed to for granted.

That said, I voted for "look at the sky", because that's what I do when I'm on the bike.

A similar phenomenon: car in front of me in the same direction of travel is turning right. I'm going straight. He sees me behind him. So, he stops before turning right, with his right blinker on, waiting for me to pass him *on the right*.

I understand this, too. Too many bikers just fly by on the right side.

But I won't pass a car on the right, even when the driver's stopped and waving. I'll pull to the left and pass him on that side.

A lot of drivers hate it. They drive off with a stomp of the accelerator.

I don't care, though. You've got to do it the right way.

I

I don't care, though. You've got to do it the right way.

And eventually the only cyclists left on the road will be those that pass right turning cars on the left ;) Assuming cars stop compensating for stuipid cyclists.

Al

It was a two-lane road. The big, black SUV with tinted windows, in the right lane, was stopped for no apparent reason with two cars behind it (I figured it was turning right into a parking lot but was waiting for something to get out of its way. I was on my motorcycle, coming up behind it in the left lane.

Just as I got up to them another car shot out from the right (just in front of the SUV) to turn left onto the road I was on, and crossed my lane right in front of me!! The blasted SUV had been waiving it through, and because the SUV was so big and had tinted windows, I couldn't see it coming (and obviously it couldn't see me either). I slammed on the brakes and just barely avoided T-boning it. GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

That is why "waving through" is not legal most places.
When I drove semi, the authorities told us that if we did wave someone ahead & they wrecked, we could be liable. Their reasoning was "Your not a policeman, you don't have the authority to control the traffic".

I just plain don't trust most of 'em...

them waving you thru even though they have the right of way is better than aholes giving you the finger just after they took your right of way and almost hit you...

I had to resurrect this thread to complain that this week I was waved through 3 or maybe 4 days in a row at the same place on my commute! It's a left turn from an arterial onto a side street, where I merge to the center of the road and stop to wait for oncoming traffic to clear. Argh! :(

I've been going ahead after the wave because I figure the shorter time the situation goes on, the less risky. There's only one lane each way, so it seems to me that the biggest risk is that the last car in that line that is now stopping will get rear-ended, so I just go on. But it frustrates me because it's further reinforcing the idea in that motorist's mind that bikes are not subject to the same rules, and need special allowances made for them.