Advocacy & Safety - Is a F250 pickup truck a deadly weapon?

A few days ago a guy steering a new F250 went by me at about 45mph, not moving over as a car was coming the other way. He was 6-8" from my hands as he sped by.
I yelled and waved my arm, he just laughed as he cut over the little that was left, very near me.

I consider that truck a deadly weapon at that moment, and I felt in danger of my life.
In Florida we can protect ourselves in any manor we see fit, even aid others.

I wonder how he'd feel if I exercised my rights just then.

I know this might stir a few things up, but I can't be the only one that feels this way at times. Am I wrong?

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. In practice though, the threat has passed. Keep some nuts and bolts at hand. Throw one of them. When he stops and then threatens you, protect yourself.

I know it'd be stupid to do anything, but would like to at times.

Unless the motorist has to stop a short distance further down the road, at 45 mph not much good info can be gathered to report it to local authorities as an unsafe pass, and only having a newer Ford F250 as a description isn't going to cut it. If this type of scenario happens regularly, possibly change routes, ride further left if the average traffic speed is low, or opt for a video camera.

To report an unsafe pass will be a lot easier than trying to prove that an F250 was being used as a deadly weapon, and at least there will be a greater chance in that the motorist will be documented.

I consider that truck a deadly weapon at that moment, and I felt in danger of my life.
In Florida we can protect ourselves in any manor we see fit, even aid others.

I wonder how he'd feel if I exercised my rights just then.

If you are trying to go where I think you are going, I think the judge and jury might not look at it the same way you do:lol:

I know it'd be stupid to do anything, but would like to at times.
I had a feeling you knew that when you posted the first one.

In most places, in order to claim the defense of "self-defense" against charges that you used force or deadly force illegally, you've basically got to pass a "reasonable man" test. The jury will be asked to consider whether a hypothetical reasonable person, dropped into your shoes in the situation in which you used force to defend yourself, would have been in fear of death or grave bodily harm (for himself, or for another innocent.)
Part of that process will probably include discussion of whether what you did had any defensive value. If I'm wrong, forgive me, but in your OP, which I took to be maybe half-serious, maybe less, you seem to be referring to using deadly force against the driver, maybe a firearm? The question is, what does shooting at the driver of the truck do to defend you from the danger? A reasonable person would absolutely conclude that your life was endangered, but he'd be forced to conclude that shooting at the driver didn't do anything to make you safer--it would be seen (rightly, I think) as an expression of anger and an effort to take revenge on someone who had just wronged you. That's not self-defense.

Moondance . . . not helping! :D

Con, not exactly, but just wondering if others have similar feelings at times.

We all know, with judges and juries, things don't always come out as we thought they would.

Not exactly, but just wondering if others have similar feelings at times.

.

Impluse control, we learn it as we grow up. We all have feelings like that, we learn not to act on them......But, you know that already.

Folks in cars and trucks piss me off all time when I'm on my bike or motorcycle. There was a time I would let it eat at me for many many miles, now I just let it go and move on.

I had a feeling you knew that when you posted the first one.

In most places, in order to claim the defense of "self-defense" against charges that you used force or deadly force illegally, you've basically got to pass a "reasonable man" test. The jury will be asked to consider whether a hypothetical reasonable person, dropped into your shoes in the situation in which you used force to defend yourself, would have been in fear of death or grave bodily harm (for himself, or for another innocent.)
Part of that process will probably include discussion of whether what you did had any defensive value. If I'm wrong, forgive me, but in your OP, which I took to be maybe half-serious, maybe less, you seem to be referring to using deadly force against the driver, maybe a firearm? The question is, what does shooting at the driver of the truck do to defend you from the danger? A reasonable person would absolutely conclude that your life was endangered, but he'd be forced to conclude that shooting at the driver didn't do anything to make you safer--it would be seen (rightly, I think) as an expression of anger and an effort to take revenge on someone who had just wronged you. That's not self-defense.

Moondance . . . not helping! :D

Very well put, I thank you very much.

I don't ride that road anymore, and I'm learning how to pick much safer routes.

To the OP, I had a similar thread up this last week "Near buzzes and the law" was inspired by a guy in a new hummer performing the same manuever.. only no on coming traffic. Report him, so at least he'll be known for that kind of driving, and then don't worry about it.

.... There was a time I would let it eat at me for many many miles, now I just let it go and move on.

I've tried the let it go and move on method, but too many motorists kept throwing salt on my wound. I now have taken measures in making sure that the worst offending motorists, that I encounter, get reported to local authorities.

Moondance . . . not helping! :D
I do what I can!!
I think maybe I should invest in a two cameras, like the guy in PA http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/773977-Angry-Driver-Encounter-%28video%29 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/773977-Angry-Driver-Encounter-%28video%29)
Then you have some proof/evidence. Or at least your next-of-kin does....

Well I asked for words of wisdom from the good peeps here, and I'm getting them, thanks.

Looks like a helmet cam is on my Christmas wish list, it'll be there a while.
Man the list goes on, when does it stop. :)

Man the list goes on, when does it stop. :)

bike want lists are fun:thumb:

We all know, with judges and juries, things don't always come out as we thought they would.

Rarely ever but, as we hope, where cyclists are concerned.

Never mind retaliation. Go for prevention. In situations where you can't legally "take the lane", ride in a position that always leaves at least 2-3 feet of ride-able pavement to your right. Also get yourself whatever type of mirror that works best for you, and monitor overtaking traffic. Then, when you see one of these asshats is just about to breeze you, glide over into your buffer zone.* That 6 inch pass just became 2-3 feet. It works.

*don't move right too soon or the JAM may just move over too.

The F250 IS a deadly weapon. You could do exactly what the "King's men" do, in exactly the same situation, and still go to prison.

I wonder how he'd feel if I exercised my rights just then.

How do you protect yourself from an F250? If you shoot the guy afterward, it's too late. It's not defense if it's already happened. It's only defense if you're attempting prevent it from happening. You can't shoot at everybody you think might pass closer than you are comfortable with.

Then, when you see one of these asshats is just about to breeze you, glide over into your buffer zone.* That 6 inch pass just became 2-3 feet. It works.


Working urban traffic makes it difficult to constantly monitor rear approaching traffic, and comes at the expense of monitoring forward cross traffic and parked vehicles. My last motorist didn't let his actions be known until the last few seconds while I was scanning an upcoming intersection.

A few days ago a guy steering a new F250 went by me at about 45mph, not moving over as a car was coming the other way. He was 6-8" from my hands as he sped by.
I yelled and waved my arm, he just laughed as he cut over the little that was left, very near me.

I consider that truck a deadly weapon at that moment, and I felt in danger of my life.
In Florida we can protect ourselves in any manor we see fit, even aid others.

I wonder how he'd feel if I exercised my rights just then.

I know this might stir a few things up, but I can't be the only one that feels this way at times. Am I wrong?

I agree, but it depends on how you exercise those rights.

I've stayed a free man this long, no asshat like that going to change that.

I had a feeling you knew that when you posted the first one.

In most places, in order to claim the defense of "self-defense" against charges that you used force or deadly force illegally, you've basically got to pass a "reasonable man" test. The jury will be asked to consider whether a hypothetical reasonable person, dropped into your shoes in the situation in which you used force to defend yourself, would have been in fear of death or grave bodily harm (for himself, or for another innocent.)
Part of that process will probably include discussion of whether what you did had any defensive value. If I'm wrong, forgive me, but in your OP, which I took to be maybe half-serious, maybe less, you seem to be referring to using deadly force against the driver, maybe a firearm? The question is, what does shooting at the driver of the truck do to defend you from the danger? A reasonable person would absolutely conclude that your life was endangered, but he'd be forced to conclude that shooting at the driver didn't do anything to make you safer--it would be seen (rightly, I think) as an expression of anger and an effort to take revenge on someone who had just wronged you. That's not self-defense.

Moondance . . . not helping! :D

Actually thanks to former Governor Jeb Bush who expanded the "castle doctrine." Here in Florida we are allowed to use deadly force to defend ourselves in our cars, on motorcycles, on bicycles, on our boats or while walking down the street. There are states such as NY that requires a person to if they can safely to leave the area before they are allowed to use deadly force.

To the OP, don't forget though that over in Tampa this past year that a man was arrested trying to use that defense for defending either his son or his girlfriends son from a "gang of bullies."

How do you protect yourself from an F250? If you shoot the guy afterward, it's too late. It's not defense if it's already happened. It's only defense if you're attempting prevent it from happening. You can't shoot at everybody you think might pass closer than you are comfortable with.
Oh, now you tell me. Well, off to the old hideout.

It is seriously difficult to get law enforcement to accept that there are people out there who take joy in endangering cyclists. However, I am seeing more police departments starting bike patrols. If we can get those cops to ride without their uniforms a bit, then we might start to see some prosecutions. The bike cops that I have talked to in Eugene have told me they are afraid to ride without their uniforms.

The F250 IS a deadly weapon. You could do exactly what the "King's men" do, in exactly the same situation, and still go to prison.

This. I guarantee that if you got that close to a cop making a traffic stop with a truck going at speed, and got caught, the charge would be ADW, or at least some form of reckless endangerment. They won't bother with a traffic citation when they're the ones in danger.

Reality check. Self defense is protecting yourself from immediate danger. By the time you "defended yourself" from this driver, the danger would be over. You'd go to jail.

Reality check. Self defense is protecting yourself from immediate danger. By the time you "defended yourself" from this driver, the danger would be over. You'd go to jail.

Not in NH, USA.

Not in NH, USA.

Really? In N.H. you can shoot at someone who swings at you, say with a bat, while he or she's running away in the back?

Really? In N.H. you can shoot at someone who swings at you, say with a bat, while he or she's running away in the back?

Absolutely, if you think your life is in danger. So maybe not shooting them in the back while they are running away, but certainly when they are menacing you with a bat. Why not also, when they are threatening you with something far more deadly than a bat, on par with firearms?

Absolutely, if you think your life is in danger. So maybe not shooting them in the back while they are running away, but certainly when they are menacing you with a bat. Why not also, when they are threatening you with something far more deadly than a bat, on par with firearms?

If a motorist turns around and tries to do severe harm or kill you and you have no viable means of escape, then if you use lethal force against the motorist, it might fly with a jury in their justifying your means. As previously said, if the motorist is moving away from you, and the immediate danger has passed, then any lethal force used by you will be considered revenge, and not many jurists will side with you.

If a motorist turns around and tries to do severe harm or kill you and you have no viable means of escape, then if you use lethal force against the motorist, it might fly with a jury in their justifying your means. As previously said, if the motorist is moving away from you, and the immediate danger has passed, then any lethal force used by you will be considered revenge, and not many jurists will side with you.

Alot of it depends on the DA. Here in California, if you shot a fleeing driver that had just run over your ride partner, you'd likely be charged. A man in Vallejo, Ca shot a man fleeing a felony at his mother's house in the back, and was not charged, with the DA saying that deadly force is allowed against fleeing felons. It can go either way.

That's definitely the sign of a bad driver, most would see you and then slow down and time going around you with a lull in oncoming traffic. Sometimes you have to be the bigger person and take the gutter to save your own skin. Take as much space as you can adhering to FRAP, that way when it's that close, you may not even need to go gutter. As another mentioned look for an alternate route. I hate 45 mph roads and if I find one that runs parallel with less traffic the block I have to ride to get on that one is better than trying to force riding on a main thoroughfare.

Alot of it depends on the DA. Here in California, if you shot a fleeing driver that had just run over your ride partner, you'd likely be charged. A man in Vallejo, Ca shot a man fleeing a felony at his mother's house in the back, and was not charged, with the DA saying that deadly force is allowed against fleeing felons. It can go either way.

I was trying to stick with the motorist scenario and not someone's household being violated. Though we did have a motorist run a stop sign, jump the curb, crash though a solid wooden fence, traverse a 50 foot lawn, crash through the house front window, missed the sleeping owner's head, laying on the front room couch, by mere inches and crashed though the back wall of the front room.

Fortunately for the motorist, the homeowner didn't own a firearm. ;)

I was trying to stick with the motorist scenario and not someone's household being violated. Though we did have a motorist run a stop sign, jump the curb, crash though a solid wooden fence, traverse a 50 foot lawn, crash through the house front window, missed the sleeping owner's head, laying on the front room couch, by mere inches and crashed though the back wall of the front room.

Fortunately for the motorist, the homeowner didn't own a firearm. ;)

Guy never got inside the house.

A few days ago a guy steering a new F250 went by me at about 45mph, not moving over as a car was coming the other way. He was 6-8" from my hands as he sped by.
I yelled and waved my arm, he just laughed as he cut over the little that was left, very near me.

I consider that truck a deadly weapon at that moment, and I felt in danger of my life.
In Florida we can protect ourselves in any manor we see fit, even aid others.



I wonder how he'd feel if I exercised my rights just then.

I know this might stir a few things up, but I can't be the only one that feels this way at times. Am I wrong?
When I'm riding I try not to be surprised by anything on the roadway. This means I must be very attentive in assesing situations as they present themselves as I am cycling down a roadway. The busier the traffic, the more vigilent I must be in assessing risk as I travel down the roadway. A mirror helps me from being surprised by vehicles approaching on my left flank. Taking the lane is a good way to slow the motorist down and to make sure they see you before they pass. I am also willing to go off road if I see an asshat buzzing to closely. ALWAYS be ready to bail if you have to. Try to not be trapped by a curb or railing; these are very dangerous areas. Remember; the #1 reason for cyclist/motorist collisions is the motorist just does not see the cyclist.

I consider that truck a deadly weapon at that moment, and I felt in danger of my life.
In Florida we can protect ourselves in any manor we see fit, even aid others.


Actually I think you have to be in your own manor.

KeS

This is a very alarming thread. This example would never be considered self defense. Police are frequently even prohibited from shooting at a fleeing vehicle. It is extremely dangerous to discharge a firearm in public.

Once the rig is past you and gone, the "I feared for my life" tagline is no longer valid as a defense. Remember, if you shoot and kill somebody, you commit homocide. Your defense is an affirmative defense - "Yes I killed him, but I had a valid reason (self defense)." No longer self defense if the threat is gone.

Even if you are right, the legal costs and the impact on your life for shooting someone is immense. Even if you win (right or not). You could well be bankrupt and an emotional wreck when it is all over, and at least once in there you are going to wonder if it was all worth it.

All in all, not a good idea to deal with the F250 driver in this manner. Going to be real hard to show self defense in a you v truck situation.

Actually I think you have to be in your own manor.

KeS

KeS,

Not in Florida, thanks to former Governor Jeb Bush who expanded the "castle doctrine" to include walking down the street, driving one's car, in their boat, on their motorcycle, or on their bicycle.

Not in Florida, thanks to former Governor Jeb Bush who expanded the "castle doctrine" to include walking down the street, driving one's car, in their boat, on their motorcycle, or on their bicycle.

Forget about the Wild West, the Wild East is in town. DC, sounds like all the streets, cities in Florida should be named the "OK Corral".

This thread has become very silly...........

In Florida we can protect ourselves in any manor we see fit, even aid others.

I wonder how he'd feel if I exercised my rights just then.I don't live in Florida, but I tend to doubt you can "protect ourselves in any manor we see fit". You do have the right to defend yourself, but there are limits to that, even in places like Florida and Texas.

You didn't explicitly say it, but I'm guessing the form of protection you were referring to involved a firearm? Were you talking about firing at a truck that was about to make a close pass, or at a truck that had just made a short pass?

If so, I hope you like prison.

If the rights you want to exercise involve going to the police with a report, preferably with video footage ... the driver probably wouldn't like it, but that's his problem. Past experience suggests that the police won't act, but even so -- that's the good thing to do.

In the last week,the little town I live in outside L.A.,the local police have shot and killed 2 people.

1 homeless man threatened them with a stick and folding pocket knife and the other had nothing,he just ran from them.They shot him 5 times,twice in the back,no harm no foul.According to the police,they were chasing him and he turned toward them "in an aggressive manner" and that is suppose to justify the shooting.

Officers are charged with nothing.

I'm not sure a close drive-by would be considered a deadly weapon.Just like a Bic pen isn't considered a deadly weapon....but it could be.

If the truck is actually trying to run over you.....that's different.

I might point out that a little tin can Smart car, a Prius, or a Honda Civic can also be a deadly weapon.

Forget about the Wild West, the Wild East is in town. DC, sounds like all the streets, cities in Florida should be named the "OK Corral".

DD,

The irony is that that was the subject of more than a few articles after former Governor Bush expanded the "Castle doctrine." The reality is that there have been very few cases of private citizens using deadly force to defend either themselves or someone else.

The irony is that that was the subject of more than a few articles after former Governor Bush expanded the "Castle doctrine." The reality is that there have been very few cases of private citizens using deadly force to defend either themselves or someone else.

Where are you getting these statistics? I haven't been able to find a state-by-state breakdown of defensive gun uses, but even just dividing the smallest statistically likely number of civilian defensive gun uses estimated in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology's last study evenly among the population would give Florida something over twenty thousand DGUs annually. That same study reported 34% of incarcerated felons had been scared off, shot or captured by armed victims, and 40% had on at least one occasion decided to leave a potential victim alone due to the fear that the victim might have a gun. Just because you don't see them in the newspaper doesn't mean they don't happen.

The question is, what does shooting at the driver of the truck do to defend you from the danger? A reasonable person would absolutely conclude that your life was endangered, but he'd be forced to conclude that shooting at the driver didn't do anything to make you safer
Technically it might be seen as scaring the driver into driving more safely? I don't advocate shooting anyone by the way. Just say no to drive-by bicyclings.

An F250 is not a deadly weapon or any other sort of weapon, I have one and it hasn't killed anybody yet. It is a good truck.

Where are you getting these statistics? I haven't been able to find a state-by-state breakdown of defensive gun uses, but even just dividing the smallest statistically likely number of civilian defensive gun uses estimated in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology's last study evenly among the population would give Florida something over twenty thousand DGUs annually. That same study reported 34% of incarcerated felons had been scared off, shot or captured by armed victims, and 40% had on at least one occasion decided to leave a potential victim alone due to the fear that the victim might have a gun. Just because you don't see them in the newspaper doesn't mean they don't happen.

I'm just going by what I've seen in the news, which admittedly as you said doesn't cover every instance in every little "one horse" town. But it is the only source that a lot of us have access to.

I'm just going by what I've seen in the news, which admittedly as you said doesn't cover every instance in every little "one horse" town. But it is the only source that a lot of us have access to.

A few nights of listening to a scanner can be a real eye-opener. In this town of 15k, there's more actually happening in a week than gets reported in the paper in a year. In Dallas, it was nearly impossible to listen to even two or three (of 8) precincts at once because of the sheer quantity of calls.

A few days ago a guy steering a new F250 went by me at about 45mph, not moving over as a car was coming the other way. He was 6-8" from my hands as he sped by.
I yelled and waved my arm, he just laughed as he cut over the little that was left, very near me.

Not trying to be mean but if he buzzed you at 45mph, how did you know he "laughed" at you?

But if his intent was to get a knee jerk reaction from you, he succeeded, and you just made it more dangerous for the next bicyclist he would try this to.

NEVER REWARD bad drivers by flipping them the finger or waving your arms.... That's what they WANT YOU TO DO.