View Full Version : can you taste lactic acid?
When I'm going hard during a ride (climbing), especially if it's early in the ride, and I know I'm at or exceeding aerobic threshold, I get a...metallic, I guess...taste in my mouth. Anyone ever experience anything like this, or know if lactic acid has this kind of effect?
Lactic acid doesn't work like that. Do you think you may have a acid reflux problem?
Koffee
timmhaan
12-03-04, 03:57 PM
it seems to be pretty common (the metallic taste). many of my friends who do any type of endurance exercise have had this. to me, it tastes like a mouthful of pennies. i experience it mostly if i run and only when i'm really pushing myself on the bike. i've been looking around on the internet for the past half hour and can't find a good explanation yet. i'd be interested in learning about what this is too.
BigHit-Maniac
12-03-04, 04:20 PM
No
Lactic acid build up inside you...
clancy98
12-03-04, 04:23 PM
well i have an acid reflux problem, and I know for a while, I would ride with a loaded backpack in the middle of summer, and my reflux would act up like crazy. Try a tums next time, just for tests sake?
Cl
Phatman
12-03-04, 04:24 PM
actually, thats blood from the capillaries in your throat bursting. its how you know your really working hard. at least thats what my running coach said.
and PS. its NOT acid reflux.
Your running coach needs to go to school and get an education. What body is your coach certified with? I suspect it would be either none or some little known, non-recognized organization. Sorry.
Check and see if you have some kind of acid reflux problem. It may warrant a trip to the doctor's office, but look for a doctor that's more into sports. Not every doctor knows how to deal with athletes.
Koffee
Rarely have acid reflux of any kind, and "a mouthful of pennies" is a good description. And it's only when pushing pretty hard. I've looked all over the internet (over the years), and have never found anything, either.
Come to think of it, my wife sells I SMELL like metal when I come back from hard/long rides or runs. And it's not just my body- it's my clothes, so whatever it is is also coming out in my sweat, apparently. And I've read about the phenomenon of "ammonia smell" from the breakdown of...fat? protein? I forget. But this definitely doesn't smell like ammonia.
bandito
12-03-04, 06:23 PM
it's not "some kind of acid reflux problem" . i get the same taste in my mouth after a very hard run and i mean very hard. i don't notice this tase on the bike because i think that i'm in better biking shape than running "sprinting" shape. just want to let you know you're not the only ones with the taste of metal.
bandito
How do you know what it is? Did you go to the doctor's and have them test you while you did a hard run?
Hence the suggestion to head to a doctor for an answer. We can speculate all we want, but the only way to get a real answer is to seek some medical advice.
Koffee
Diggy18
12-03-04, 08:00 PM
to me, it tastes like a mouthful of pennies.
Dude that's exactly it. I used to get that after running in the winter, but I haven't had it riding yet.
Phatman said it was blood vessels bursting. I think that's it, too. Didn't you ever get hit hard in the nose and then have the same sort of taste in your mouth? And blood has iron, right?
geneman
12-03-04, 08:05 PM
And I've read about the phenomenon of "ammonia smell" from the breakdown of...fat? protein? I forget. But this definitely doesn't smell like ammonia.
The ammonia smell comes from your sweat. Sweat, in basic terms is slightly diluted urine and contains NH3 (ammonia). In my experience, the smell from sweat is stronger when I'm dehydrated which is logical as the concentration of ammonia in my urine and sweat will be higher. I use it as a sign that I need to drink more.
-mark
OK- just did a little more digging. A metallic taste in the mouth during or after exercise can be (allegedly) caused by:
-ketosis (fat breakdown. people on Atkins live with this, due to extreme lack of carbs. doubt this, as I am ANaerobic when it happens, and get plenty of carbs. Perhaps if it was during long endurance training, when the body burns more fat as fuel, but that's not my situation.)
-something about the lungs...inflamming...and the taste being blood. But I would think this is a SERIOUS condition requiring immediate medical attention.
-lactic acid buildup
-probably NOT adrenaline- saw a few places that said adrenaline cannot be "tasted"
AND- all this has to do with metallic TASTE, not SMELL. (for example, the metal taste might be blood vessels bursting in my lungs - yikes!- but that shouldn't cause my clothing to SMELL metallic...)
The search continues...
bandito
12-03-04, 10:08 PM
"How do you know what it is? Did you go to the doctor's and have them test you while you did a hard run?"
if i went to the doctor everytime i felt or tasted something odd while doing a hard workout i'd be at his office once a week with a pain here and sore muscle there. as far as the "metal" taste goes, for me it seems to come from the top of my throat not down lower where you would expect acid reflux to be. i also believe that it has sort of a blood or iron taste to it but not quite. i never noticed any negative side effects from the "taste" so unless you have some other reason to be worried about it i'd say to just forget about it.
bandito
geneman
12-03-04, 10:53 PM
Here's a little experiment for you all to do before your next work out. If you're used to getting that "blood" or iron taste in your mouth during a hard effort do the following;
At least 15 minutes before your ride, perform some deep breathing exercises. Breath in absolutely as much air as you can. Really expand your lungs. When you think you've taken in as much air as you possibly can, dig a little deeper for that last gulp. Next, exhale as deeply as you can ... same deal.
Repeat this process a few more times. No need to go crazy.
Now go do your normal ride and come back and tell me if you taste blood. I'll bet you won't.
I have no explanation other than a total speculative guess ... EIPH (google it).
-mark
I actually think it's the air.
You're sucking in air through your mouth, which has a lot of particles in it that get stuck to your tongue, the moisture evaporates, making your tongue sticky and attracting yet more stuff on it. In the end, it's basically pollution.
At least for me, after riding through all the back alley industrial park streets on the way to work, that's what I taste in my mouth and smell in my clothes.
Are you taking vitamin or mineral supplements?
clancy98
12-04-04, 07:35 AM
well ruger don't know about the other stuff but as far as Ketosis goes, from my atkins experience it takes a while (and a diet change) to get into Ketosis "mode"... That is, I dont think its something you could slip into during a workout.... But I'm not a doctor, just someone trying to help, much like all the people yelling at everyone else on this thread.
CL
I have no explanation other than a total speculative guess ... EIPH (google it).
-mark
Wow- EIPH sounds like a very logical explanation. But all the info I find is for HORSES- not humans.?????
Yes- and I knoe that Selenium (which I take) has been linked to a metallic taste in the mouth, BUT- it's a constant taste, not just when exercising. I've found tons of conditions that can cause a (constant) metallic taste in the mouth, but very few which come only with exertion.
well ruger don't know about the other stuff but as far as Ketosis goes, from my atkins experience it takes a while (and a diet change) to get into Ketosis "mode"... That is, I dont think its something you could slip into during a workout.... But I'm not a doctor, just someone trying to help, much like all the people yelling at everyone else on this thread.
CL
I thought exactly the same thing. Atkins' people have a constant metallic taste in their mouths- not only under exertion.
This EIPH things sounds like it, but it's an EQUINE condition. I guess it could apply to humans as well, but haven't found human info yet. I did find one site that compared it to human emphysema, so I'll do some more digging. I don't have symptoms of emphysema in daily (non-exercising) life, tho. And, emphysema wouldn't explain the metallic smell my clothes get.
edmiston9
12-04-04, 09:37 AM
I've had it once or twice. The most recent occurrance was in a crit that had an uphill finish. I was coming around the last corner and was totally wiped out from the race, saw the finish and just sprinted like a scalded ape for the last 500m. At the finish line I got the mouth full of pennies feeling. The funny thing is I have done extended anearobic sprints on the bike more recently (HR above 210 for 30seconds) and I haven't had the same taste. It may have something to do with your capabilities and conditioning. The crit happened during a time when I wasn't training at all so I was in BAD shape (relatively of course).
I'll email a buddy of mine and see what his opinion is. He's a Ph D nutrionalist and research scientist for the Banesto Cycling team.
I'll email a buddy of mine and see what his opinion is. He's a Ph D nutrionalist and research scientist for the Banesto Cycling team.
wow- that'd be great. Keep us informed!
The ammonia smell comes from your sweat. Sweat, in basic terms is slightly diluted urine and contains NH3 (ammonia).
Sweat is closer to plasma in composition. It does contain trace amounts of urea.
<edit> Hmmm... after looking in to this further it looks like there is also ammonia present:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1396636&dopt=Abstract
Me? I smell like a swimming pool after a ride. My wife prefers that to smelling like pee :D
geneman
12-04-04, 02:10 PM
<edit> Hmmm... after looking in to this further it looks like there is also ammonia present:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1396636&dopt=Abstract
Really? ... cos I just made that up.
:D
-mark
Anyone tried my experiment above yet?
-mark
geneman
12-04-04, 02:11 PM
Wow- EIPH sounds like a very logical explanation. But all the info I find is for HORSES- not humans.?????
I failed to find mention of EIPH in human through a search of scientific literature, but I did find it through a google search (which means it must be true, right? :rolleyes: )
<just a wild theory>
-mark
What can I say?...you're an Ironman. ;)
Anyone tried my experiment above yet?
-mark
No- haven't ridden since then. My LEDs weren't bright enough, so I'm waiting for my halogens to arrive...
...and no TIME to ride this weekend, due to social obligations. :mad:
I WILL be trying it out on my next several rides.
Diggy18
12-05-04, 08:10 AM
It's iron from your blood, it's gotta be. And since your sense of smell is so integrated with taste, if the blood vessels in the nose get dried out and bleed that could give you a taste of metal, too, I think.
willum44
12-05-04, 08:34 PM
The amonia smell comes from using protein in the muscles for fuel when glycogen has been depleted and the muscles are not trained to burn fats. Long slow distance [aerobic] training over long periods below 65% of max heart rate trains the muscles to burn fats.
Bill
You are all wrong.
That taste is from the change that you carry in your mouth.
You should carry your change in your pocket.
Aw, come on....it was a little funny!
edmiston9
12-08-04, 09:08 AM
I talked with a respiratory therapists friend of mine and she was saying something about it being the last of your electrolytes peacing out.
still waiting on the final word from the Banesto doctor
geneman
12-08-04, 10:49 PM
Still no takers on my little experiment? It works for me, I'd love to know if it works for others.
(see my post on page 1)
-mark
I get the same thing during a hard ride or run, especially if I've been training hard all week. I believe it is the lactic acid build-up OR a chemical derived from the body's reaction. But I'm not a doctor so don't jump down my throat. It's just what I read from my body.
Diggy18
12-10-04, 12:21 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure if it has something to do with the blood I'm coughing up, or what.
Still no takers on my little experiment? It works for me, I'd love to know if it works for others.
(see my post on page 1)
-mark
I'll get back to you- I WILL be trying it out; it's been 40 degrees and raining here for 2 days...
Maybe ask these guys http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters10-11
Maybe ask these guys http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters10-11
Great idea! I shot them an email. Thanks for the link...alot of good info there!
andrello
12-22-04, 01:47 PM
I'm at or exceeding aerobic threshold, I get a...metallic, I guess...taste in my mouth.
A metallic taste in the mouth can be caused by many things:
- zinc, iron or B12 deficiency
- electrical current in the mouth
- most likely, blood; Perhaps when exerting yourself you're breaking small blood vessels in your sinuses. It's not enough to bleed but enough to taste. This is very common and leads to bad breath as well.
Consult a dentist or Ear, Nose and Throat MD.
Sessamoid
12-24-04, 12:48 PM
That's weird. I only get that metallic taste right after chewing nails (for the longer rides, y'know?). Honestly, I have never experienced this thing of which you speak.
timhines
12-27-04, 09:10 AM
I'm eagerly awaiting more information on this.
I've experienced this a handfull of times in the past year (only once cycling related). I assumed it was some sort of vitamin/mineral --or lack there of.
I live in the mountains of NC, so I cannot relate this to smog or anything like that. It freaks me out everytime that I get that taste because I have no idea what causes it. I'm always afraid i'm about to bonk & pass out when I get that taste.
I'll try the deep breathing exercise.
Next time I talk to my doc I will ask him about it as well...
EDIT:
Just found this information too....
Blood cells contain hemoglobin which carries oxygen. When blood breaks down, iron is released and causes a metallic taste in mouth. This bleeding can be from the gums, sinuses, or nose. The taste can get especially bad when someone has post nasal drip and the dried blood sticks to the back of the throat. If bleeding gums are the cause there is often bad breath associated with the bad taste.
Another uncommon reason for a metallic taste in mouth is due to small electric currents in the mouth. When two types of metals are used in two different dental fillings a battery can be created. Some believe that it's due to the mercury leakage from dental silver/mercury fillings.
akarius
01-03-05, 07:05 PM
I thought exactly the same thing. Atkins' people have a constant metallic taste in their mouths- not only under exertion.
The metallic taste in people with atkins, is the ketones that are produced from eating to much protein, I belive this puts a strain on the liver, trying to oxidize the extra ketones, so on a high protein diet more ketones are being produced faster than the liver can oxidize them; therefore, they have a metallic taste in thier mouth, and bad breath. When one is exercising very hard the liver is converting glycogen to glucose, so energy is being used in that. I believe that ones liver can't handle the whole load of toxins, such as ammonium, which it must be reduced to ammonia, before it can be released in to the blood stream. And ketones which can't be processed as fast as they would normally be in a state of rest, and proper health. It is probably the ketones and other garbage that is floating around in your system causing the metallic taste. And since your body needs to absorb more water from your kidneys, the amount of toxins is concentrated, the closer to becoming dehydrated one is.
Anyone please correct me if I am mistaken
Sessamoid
01-03-05, 09:59 PM
I don't know that anybody's actually studied this, but I think it is unlikely that ketones would lead to a metallic taste and even less likely that it would lead to "bad breath". Ketones don't activate any of the taste receptors, but have a very characteristic odor that is most often described as "fruity" or "sweet". The acetone which is (or used to be) a primary component in nail polish remover is one such ketone and is also one of the ketones produced by the human body in ketosis.
Odor is the least well understood of the human senses, and we haven't even really decided how many distinct odors the human nose is capable of detecting. A metallic "taste" is actually more likely to be odor, since there is no taste that correlates with a metallic sensation. Unpleasant odors from exercise could be caused by a number of byproducts of metabolism, but I doubt ketones are the cause.
akarius
01-04-05, 04:33 PM
I don't know that anybody's actually studied this, but I think it is unlikely that ketones would lead to a metallic taste and even less likely that it would lead to "bad breath"
It has been studied, and it is something I learned about in my training to become a nurse, when you use protein as energy alot more ketones are produced. It has been proven that eating only protein based foods for an extended period of time can damage the liver, and produce bad breath, which is a common side effect of overproduction of ketones. I have even seen it mentioned on CNN with Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Now I do not know how much weight that carries, but the fact that it has been noticed that people who do not pay attention to nutrition while trying to loose weight often suffer from bad breath and incresed ketone production. I don't know what acetone tastes like though, so I cannot say that it would taste metallic.
MMMMMM I could use a big steak right about now.
Sessamoid
01-04-05, 04:42 PM
It has been studied
Citation please? I looked briefly and couldn't find anything on Medline.
Dude that's exactly it. I used to get that after running in the winter, but I haven't had it riding yet.
Phatman said it was blood vessels bursting. I think that's it, too. Didn't you ever get hit hard in the nose and then have the same sort of taste in your mouth? And blood has iron, right?
Pennies are copper not iron. :D
akarius
01-04-05, 04:51 PM
Check out jama under ketone and you will find hundreds of studies, like I said I do not know what ketones taste like, but even the atkins people call there diets ketosis. Here is one study for you by JAMA that was conducted through medline "Efficacy and Safety of Low-Carbohydrate Diets: A Systematic Review
JAMA, Apr 2003; 289: 1837 - 1850."
Sessamoid
01-04-05, 04:54 PM
Check out jama under ketone and you will find hundreds of studies, like I said I do not know what ketones taste like, but even the atkins people call there diets ketosis. Here is one study for you by JAMA that was conducted through medline "Efficacy and Safety of Low-Carbohydrate Diets: A Systematic Review
JAMA, Apr 2003; 289: 1837 - 1850."
I don't care what you call the diets. The fact that some of them cause ketosis (as practically any starvation diet will) is well-established and not what I'm questioning.
Find me an article that explains what the bad taste from exercise is caused by, or that ketones tastes like metal. The increased metabolic rate from exercise produces lots of waste products aside from ketones which could be the culprit in bad breath or weird taste sensations. Protein metabolism in particular produces lots of nitrogenous wastes which in normal amounts are largely excreted in the urine. Production of larger amounts can be excreted in perspiration, and probably also in exhaled air. I'd guess nitrogenous wastes were the most likely cause of halitosis in exercise, but I don't have any clear evidence. I really don't think it's ketones though, and nothing I've read suggests that it is.
Correlation != causation.
akarius
01-04-05, 05:03 PM
I guess you are right
Sessamoid
01-04-05, 08:25 PM
I also vaguely remember accidentally licking my fingers (to turn pages in a lab book) after washing glass with acetone in organic chemistry a few times. I don't particularly remember any memorable taste to the stuff. Not what I would call a good habit to develop, though. That also doesn't speak to the other two primary ketones produced in human metabolism, beta-hydroxybutyric acid and acetoacetic acid. For all I know, they could taste like split pea soup. Wouldn't bet much money on it though.
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