Advocacy & Safety - Maybe I'm not an advocate....

I rode to work today. Got up, showered, went to the bike shed and got the bike out. I put my backpack into my panier and stuck my ipod buds in, seeing as it was 4:00 am and no one else was out driving yet. I strapped on...wait, put on my cycling cap, threw a leg over, turned on my lights and took off, smiling while Janice whispered in my ear. I was making good time when I realized how nice it was and how early I was, so I slowed down to prolong the nice ride. The cars that went by, for the most part giving me plenty of room, when they looked saw nothing but a dude with work clothes on and a big fat smile on his face. They didn't see a helmet. They didn't see a camera. They didn't see anyone who was looking for them to do something wrong so the authorities could be called. They just saw a happy normal dude on a bike. I went up a hill, determined to not downshift, and felt like Eddie Merkx at the Tour de France (except a LOT slower, lol), and shot my arms up in a sign of victory. In fact, it was just a fun ride.

Most days are like this for me. I love riding, love the excercise and knowing I'm doing just a little to make this planet a nicer place to live. Sure, it's just a drop in a bucket, but it's my drop. Evidently, I'm not a good advocate, however. From everything I've read on this forum, cycling is supposed to be dangerous and cars, for some reason, are always trying to hit the cyclists here.

What am I doing wrong?:rolleyes:

You could be me....cept for the throwing up my arms, or that I use a rack trunk instead of a backpack and pannier, or that I wear a ball cap instead of a cycling cap, or that I use a plain old MP3 player instead of an Ipod, and the fact the Janice doesn't whisper in my ear until after you leave. :eek: :p

What am I doing wrong?:rolleyes:

Trying to compare a 4AM work commute, with a low car count of unhurried motorists, to some cyclists' rush hour commutes with a good number of motorist trying to go as fast as they can to a place they really don't want to be.

Trying to compare a 4AM work commute, with a low car count of unhurried motorists, to some cyclists' rush hour commutes with a good number of motorist trying to go as fast as they can to a place they really don't want to be.

Well, my typical ride home, through rush hour traffic down PCH in Long Beach, Ca. is usually the same without the ipod...hardly ever a problem with cars, usually given enough room, no near death experiences, all those things that apparently happen to all the other cyclists on here rarely, if ever, happen to me. And when people see me go home, 5 p.m. through a major urban center is a regular dude with regular clothes smiling like a dummy.

I just wonder why my commutes are usually so much simpler and nicer than what I usually read here. I'm thinking they are not, and that cycling for everyone else is usually just as safe and enjoyable as it is for me. I never have the need to turn anyone in, and rarely feel like I'm in enough danger for special head gear to be required. I think this is the real statement we need to make to advocate cycling as a viable if not better option than driving.

I started this as sometimes I get overwhelmed with all the trials and tribulations everyone here seems to be posting about. If I was considering riding my bike regularly and then read the posts here, where everyone is almost getting hit, where helmets are "saving people's lives", and where drivers are so horrible that they need to be narced on, I'd never ride. In reality, cycling is safer than driving, and those things posted in here very rarely happen, and in some people's cycling lives never happen. And that is the message we need to get out.

I have a really hard time not seeing an implication of "blame the victim" in the OP. It really depends on the drivers you meet up with. I have lived in Virginia, Ohio, Utah, and Pennsylvania. I ride a lot in New Jersey and New York. There is a distinct difference in the behaviors that I see in those places. I think the Utahns were best. Here in central PA, I find that the motorists behave really well on small rural roads, but get on a higher speed road with shoulders and they are a batch of jerks. And the bad and dangerous driving doesn't really stop when I get off the bike and into my car. I actually saw 2 car-on-car right hooks in a week. It's just that this dangerous driving becomes life threatening when you are on a bike. And if you do enough miles, you will eventually run into some real sociopaths.

Well, my typical ride home, through rush hour traffic down PCH in Long Beach, Ca. is usually the same without the ipod...hardly ever a problem with cars, usually given enough room, no near death experiences, all those things that apparently happen to all the other cyclists on here rarely, if ever, happen to me. And when people see me go home, 5 p.m. through a major urban center is a regular dude with regular clothes smiling like a dummy.

I just wonder why my commutes are usually so much simpler and nicer than what I usually read here. I'm thinking they are not, and that cycling for everyone else is usually just as safe and enjoyable as it is for me. I never have the need to turn anyone in, and rarely feel like I'm in enough danger for special head gear to be required. I think this is the real statement we need to make to advocate cycling as a viable if not better option than driving.

I started this as sometimes I get overwhelmed with all the trials and tribulations everyone here seems to be posting about. If I was considering riding my bike regularly and then read the posts here, where everyone is almost getting hit, where helmets are "saving people's lives", and where drivers are so horrible that they need to be narced on, I'd never ride. In reality, cycling is safer than driving, and those things posted in here very rarely happen, and in some people's cycling lives never happen. And that is the message we need to get out.

+1 IMO, folks like you and I ARE doing the best form of bike advocacy...we're setting an example that it's not dangerous, that it's not complicated, that it doesn't require a lot of expensive equipment, clothing and accessories, that it IS FUN. You're not doing anything wrong, you're doing it right.

Uneventful rides and well behaved motorists aren't newsworthy enough to post in A&S about.

Pleasant, boring streets and police who don't ticket lawfully operating bicyclists aren't noteworthy enough to post in A&S about.

You can't use A&S as a barometer for bicycling any more than you can use the newspaper headline crime stories as an indication of how safe and pleasant your city is.

Perhaps there should be another forum called Promotion and Encouragement. After all, tourism bureaus don't lead by talking about crime and restaurant marketing doesn't lead by talking about health inspection ratings. They talk about what people will enjoy.

I started this as sometimes I get overwhelmed with all the trials and tribulations everyone here seems to be posting about. If I was considering riding my bike regularly and then read the posts here, where everyone is almost getting hit, where helmets are "saving people's lives", and where drivers are so horrible that they need to be narced on, I'd never ride. In reality, cycling is safer than driving, and those things posted in here very rarely happen, and in some people's cycling lives never happen. And that is the message we need to get out.

Possibly that the motorists in your area are more familiar with cyclists, have a better knowledge on how to react when they do interact with them, versus other motorists, in other areas, that do not.

Again, I've only had to report two motorists this year, out of the many thousands that I interact with annually, there's definitely not an epidemic of dangerous motorists in my area, but there's still a good number of them where the incident was what I considered borderline dangerous, enough to keep a personal log, but not enough for me to report to local law enforcement.

I have a really hard time not seeing an implication of "blame the victim" in the OP. It really depends on the drivers you meet up with. I have lived in Virginia, Ohio, Utah, and Pennsylvania. I ride a lot in New Jersey and New York. There is a distinct difference in the behaviors that I see in those places. I think the Utahns were best. Here in central PA, I find that the motorists behave really well on small rural roads, but get on a higher speed road with shoulders and they are a batch of jerks. And the bad and dangerous driving doesn't really stop when I get off the bike and into my car. I actually saw 2 car-on-car right hooks in a week. It's just that this dangerous driving becomes life threatening when you are on a bike. And if you do enough miles, you will eventually run into some real sociopaths.

Meh, the sociopaths are the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of drivers may like to bark, but don't have any wish to actually bite. The old adage of "when your number is up, your number is up" applies...if you meet up with one of those sociopaths you're either going to get hurt or you ain't...no sense worrying about it beyond your normal defensive riding tactics and strategies.

+1 IMO, folks like you and I ARE doing the best form of bike advocacy...we're setting an example that it's not dangerous, that it's not complicated, that it doesn't require a lot of expensive equipment, clothing and accessories, that it IS FUN.....

Chip, I watch the regular cyclists who ride day in and day out in my area, they, like me, are enjoying what they do and having fun at times, but cycling amongst motorists is a little more complicated than just balancing on two wheels.

They didn't see a helmet. They didn't see a camera. They didn't see anyone who was looking for them to do something wrong so the authorities could be called. They just saw a happy normal dude on a bike.

Evidently, I'm not a good advocate, however. From everything I've read on this forum, cycling is supposed to be dangerous and cars, for some reason, are always trying to hit the cyclists here.

What am I doing wrong?:rolleyes:

Well, to be an "advocate" on A&S, you have to be incapable of happiness, and you have to want to punish other people for the misery you inflict on yourself. Clearly, you get joy out of life.

So no A&S "advocacy" for you, as post #7 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/778964-Maybe-I-m-not-an-advocate....?p=13438698&viewfull=1#post13438698) demonstrates.

Uneventful rides and well behaved motorists aren't newsworthy enough to post in A&S about.

Pleasant, boring streets and police who don't ticket lawfully operating bicyclists aren't noteworthy enough to post in A&S about.

You can't use A&S as a barometer for bicycling any more than you can use the newspaper headline crime stories as an indication of how safe and pleasant your city is.

Perhaps there should be another forum called Promotion and Encouragement. After all, tourism bureaus don't lead by talking about crime and restaurant marketing doesn't lead by talking about health inspection ratings. They talk about what people will enjoy.

Problem is, there are people looking into taking cycling up and this is one of the first places that comes up when you google "bicycle forum". I think people don't realize that this may be the first thing people who are considering cycling might read. If you read the posts with this in mind, it may open your eyes. If I were investigating cycling for the first time and saw how "dangerous" it was by reading these posts, there's no way I'd consider it.

Chip, I watch the regular cyclists who ride day in and day out in my area, they, like me, are enjoying what they do and having fun at times, but cycling amongst motorists is a little more complicated than just balancing on two wheels.

Well maybe as you gain experience it won't seem so complicated and will become much more fun, like it is for me. ;)

Well maybe as you gain experience it won't seem so complicated and will become much more fun, like it is for me. ;)

+1

Cycling with motorists is no more complicated than driving with motorists. It's just a matter of paying attention and going with the flow...I rarely have issues, just as I rarely had issues when I drove.

What am I doing wrong?:rolleyes:

LOL
you're posting on the internet!
There's no quicker way to feel bad, get lectured and to homogenize your thinking.

Stay happy, you goofy mofo! :)

Problem is, there are people looking into taking cycling up and this is one of the first places that comes up when you google "bicycle forum".
this is one of the many reasons I want to rename the forum "safety and advocacy" so it falls way down the list.


Meh, the sociopaths are the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of drivers may like to bark, but don't have any wish to actually bite.
what I was saying is that it's not my fault if I meet up with a sociopath, and if I meet another one I probably will post about it here. You don't meet the sociopaths because "you're doing something wrong." They are out there, and they drive.

this is one of the many reasons I want to rename the forum "safety and advocacy" so it falls way down the list.


what I was saying is that it's not my fault if I meet up with a sociopath, and if I meet another one I probably will post about it here. You don't meet the sociopaths because "you're doing something wrong." They are out there, and they drive.

How about just safety concerns? Advocacy is difficult when the dangers, real or imagined, are focused on.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/advocacy

It's hard to support or promote something that is described as dangerous. Cycling isn't dangerous at all compared with, say, showering, so maybe the two (safety and advocacy) need a permanent divorce...

My opinion is that EVERY traffic cyclist goes thru a series of stages getting to bicycling samsari.

I do like Sgoodris' idea of a 'promotion and encouragement' category at bike forums. put safety and advocacy below it.

My opinion is that EVERY traffic cyclist goes thru a series of stages getting to bicycling samsari.

I do like Sgoodris' idea of a 'promotion and encouragement' category at bike forums. put safety and advocacy below it.

There's a difference between "promotion and encouragement" and "advocacy"?

I started this as sometimes I get overwhelmed with all the trials and tribulations everyone here seems to be posting about. If I was considering riding my bike regularly and then read the posts here, where everyone is almost getting hit, where helmets are "saving people's lives", and where drivers are so horrible that they need to be narced on, I'd never ride. In reality, cycling is safer than driving, and those things posted in here very rarely happen, and in some people's cycling lives never happen. And that is the message we need to get out.

My commute is urban, with more traffic in the afternoon, and I take a variety of routes (some with quite a bit of traffic). I ride as if I were a partner to all of the other road users. I, too, am mystified by some of the comments of angry, aggressive motorists. I just don't see them. In fact, I am continually surprised about how well motorists interact with my presence on the road. I think this has a lot to do with my attitude of partnership when I ride.

-G

OP lives in greater LA. People there do not even think of getting up before 9 am. Of course the roads are clear at 4 am.

Then in the afternoon, because they start work SO late, they do not head home until the OP is finished with his commute.

+1

Cycling with motorists is no more complicated than driving with motorists. It's just a matter of paying attention and going with the flow...I rarely have issues, just as I rarely had issues when I drove.

Please come to Buffalo, where people have never heard of bicycles before, and see if you have the same opinion after one day of cycling here.


What is the point of this thread? Do you think we just make this crap up for the fun of it? Or are you just trolling?

OP lives in greater LA. People there do not even think of getting up before 9 am. Of course the roads are clear at 4 am.

Then in the afternoon, because they start work SO late, they do not head home until the OP is finished with his commute.

I leave at 5:00 or 6:00, and with stops sometimes don't get home until 7:00. Can you please let me know how afternoon rush hour in Long Beach, Ca. is outside of those hours? Reality is, cycling is just not as dangerous as people here tend to make it seem or possibly want it to be for some reason.

I rode to work today. Got up, showered, went to the bike shed and got the bike out. I put my backpack into my panier and stuck my ipod buds in, seeing as it was 4:00 am and no one else was out driving yet. I strapped on...wait, put on my cycling cap, threw a leg over, turned on my lights and took off, smiling while Janice whispered in my ear. I was making good time when I realized how nice it was and how early I was, so I slowed down to prolong the nice ride. The cars that went by, for the most part giving me plenty of room, when they looked saw nothing but a dude with work clothes on and a big fat smile on his face. They didn't see a helmet. They didn't see a camera. They didn't see anyone who was looking for them to do something wrong so the authorities could be called. They just saw a happy normal dude on a bike. I went up a hill, determined to not downshift, and felt like Eddie Merkx at the Tour de France (except a LOT slower, lol), and shot my arms up in a sign of victory. In fact, it was just a fun ride.

Most days are like this for me. I love riding, love the excercise and knowing I'm doing just a little to make this planet a nicer place to live. Sure, it's just a drop in a bucket, but it's my drop. Evidently, I'm not a good advocate, however. From everything I've read on this forum, cycling is supposed to be dangerous and cars, for some reason, are always trying to hit the cyclists here.

What am I doing wrong?:rolleyes:

Not a thing. My experience too. Yep, there are bad experiences when I'm on my bike. But, no more than when I'm driving a motor vehicle. But, not having read any of the follow on posts yet I can't say for sure. But, bet you are criticized for any number of things.

To me the single best way to advocate is to lead by example. Ride lawfully, considerately and visibly. Making eye contact with drivers and using a lot of smiles and hand waves of acknowledgement go a long way.

I often wonder what planet some of the posters in this thread live on. I've PM'd a couple with no response. So, maybe they aren't real people?

In any case Karma is real. A person's attitude drives Karma and, in turn, life experiences.

Please come to Buffalo, where people have never heard of bicycles before, and see if you have the same opinion after one day of cycling here.


What is the point of this thread? Do you think we just make this crap up for the fun of it? Or are you just trolling?


The point of this thread is to point out how real world bicycling for the vast majority of us is just not as dangerous as reading the posts in the A&S make it seem, and that it confuses me how someone could be advocating bicycling by telling people that the streets are so dangerous we need cameras to document all the aggressive dangerous drivers (not true, and when pushed, the psople who use these cameras only report one or two a year), special head gear is required, (also not true, but let's keep that debate to the helmet thread), and that everyone is out to kill us (also not true, as the reason that when a cyclist dies it makes headlines is because it happens so seldom it actually is news and when a motorist dies, you might be lucky to find out about who it was in the obits as it happens multiple times daily in every city). How is this encouraging and supporting cycling?

I like to show how safe and fun riding a bike is! That's how you attract people to cycling. Cycling is fun, safe, and will help shrink the waistlines of our super-sized citizenry if only we could get more people to do it. Trust me, once someone makes it up their first hill, then giggles like a schoolgirl on the way down, they could be hooked. Once the initial fear is gotten over (with experience) riding in trafic is fun. The attention payed is almost zen-like. Drivers, 99.9% of the time are curteous and give plenty of room. There are exceptions, but such is life. Let's get our numbers up! You want safety? There's safety in numbers, as the more of us that are out there, the more we're expected. You want to reduce pollution and greenhouse gasses? The less cars, trucks and suv's running the less pollution. These things are more important than whining about the vast minority of bad drivers and getting styrofoam hats on everyone's head (trust me, I'm a to each his or her own on this, I don't want you not to wear one if you so choose).

These are just a few of my points here. I didn't make any of this up and I'm not a troll. In fact, I think in reality I'm in the majority of cyclists who know bicycling is inherently safe and fun!

There's a difference between "promotion and encouragement" and "advocacy"?

you were the one that posted the good natured ribbing about the forums' content not being representative of actual riding...

I'm suggesting the name change to perhaps separate some of the wheat from the chaff and place the grousing about how "the cars are out to get us" BICYCLE RIGHTS, MAN and videos of awesomely noneventful commuting taken to indignant levels like Fred here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nMnr8ZirI






below a new 'education and promotion' category at bike forums. I like Sgoodris' idea and Unterhausens' lobby to move this section down in the forum list...

'education and promotion'

and down the ranks, 'safety and advocacy'.

Now, i'm quite the bicycling advocate myself (and ride more like Kyle MacLachlan in the yellow helmet in this clip) but think BF may skew the view of bicycling, as you'd mentioned in your original post.

+1

Cycling with motorists is no more complicated than driving with motorists. It's just a matter of paying attention and going with the flow...I rarely have issues, just as I rarely had issues when I drove.

I think most cyclists who drive have the traffic skills, but many who have only returned to cycling later in life can't get over the fact that they are exposed, rather than protected by a steel cage, which makes it all seem more complicated and dangerous. I can understand that, even if I can't personally identify with it.

what I was saying is that it's not my fault if I meet up with a sociopath, and if I meet another one I probably will post about it here. You don't meet the sociopaths because "you're doing something wrong." They are out there, and they drive.

ahh, I get ya.

In any case Karma is real. A person's attitude drives Karma and, in turn, life experiences.

:thumb:

OP lives in greater LA. People there do not even think of getting up before 9 am. Of course the roads are clear at 4 am.

Then in the afternoon, because they start work SO late, they do not head home until the OP is finished with his commute.

Good one.

Long beach does have much better bike infrastructure than most of LA. So that could play a factor in the behavior of drivers. It is much more bike friendly.

I don’t consider this forum to be fear mongering about the dangers of cycling. It looks to me like a bunch of cyclists just posting about the realities of their rides and how they deal with traffic or other issues. I found it helpful (and continue to)... It never scared me away from cycling. :)

There’s room in A&S for “Advocates” of all flavors.

Hippies who ride without a care in the world…
Roadies wearing fancy gear and $200 helmets…
"UFO" commuters...
Narcs with video cams…
Even scofflaws... who give us all a bad name :lol:

I've seen the "Lycra is killing cycling" threads, and the posts that say if someone wears a safety vest they're making cycling look too dangerous. Phooey on that noise!

Cyclists who consider themselves better advocates than those who may not ride in the exact same manner are the ones not promoting cycling.

what I was saying is that it's not my fault if I meet up with a sociopath, and if I meet another one I probably will post about it here. You don't meet the sociopaths because "you're doing something wrong." They are out there, and they drive.

No it is not your fault if you meet one; however, it certainly appears that one's attitude makes a difference in how one views others behavior. For instance you indicated "...and they drive" that sociopaths drive... well they ride bikes and walk as well. There is certainly evidence of cyclists with sociopathic tendencies on this forum-- I know of at least one who keeps a "grudge" list of all of those motorists who have offended him... Also advocates forms of vigilantism... Whether he practices what he preaches on the internet is a totally different

Bottom line is that everyone (cyclists, motorists, and pedestrians) are self-centered egoists. They routinely break traffic laws and behave in uncivil ways. One can either get angry or one can ignore what doesn't cause them harm and live one's own life... Most of the the stories here usually start with "I nearly..." which is a clear indication that no actual harm was done, and many of the other type demonstrate another fact; it almost always requires mistakes on the part of both parties for the accident to occur... A actual socio-path is thankfully VERY RARE!

+1

Cycling with motorists is no more complicated than driving with motorists. It's just a matter of paying attention and going with the flow...I rarely have issues, just as I rarely had issues when I drove.

While I agree, and have relative few issues on my daily 30mileRT commute. I main difference is a small incident for a motorist is potentially a large/life threatening incident for someone on a bike. Its more the people who aren't paying attention that is the problem.

The point of this thread is to point out how real world bicycling for the vast majority of us is just not as dangerous as reading the posts in the A&S make it seem, and that it confuses me how someone could be advocating bicycling by telling people that the streets are so dangerous we need cameras to document all the aggressive dangerous drivers (not true, and when pushed, the psople who use these cameras only report one or two a year), special head gear is required, (also not true, but let's keep that debate to the helmet thread), and that everyone is out to kill us (also not true, as the reason that when a cyclist dies it makes headlines is because it happens so seldom it actually is news and when a motorist dies, you might be lucky to find out about who it was in the obits as it happens multiple times daily in every city). How is this encouraging and supporting cycling?

I like to show how safe and fun riding a bike is! That's how you attract people to cycling. Cycling is fun, safe, and will help shrink the waistlines of our super-sized citizenry if only we could get more people to do it. Trust me, once someone makes it up their first hill, then giggles like a schoolgirl on the way down, they could be hooked. Once the initial fear is gotten over (with experience) riding in trafic is fun. The attention payed is almost zen-like. Drivers, 99.9% of the time are curteous and give plenty of room. There are exceptions, but such is life. Let's get our numbers up! You want safety? There's safety in numbers, as the more of us that are out there, the more we're expected. You want to reduce pollution and greenhouse gasses? The less cars, trucks and suv's running the less pollution. These things are more important than whining about the vast minority of bad drivers and getting styrofoam hats on everyone's head (trust me, I'm a to each his or her own on this, I don't want you not to wear one if you so choose).

These are just a few of my points here. I didn't make any of this up and I'm not a troll. In fact, I think in reality I'm in the majority of cyclists who know bicycling is inherently safe and fun!



Inherently fun, yes. I agree.

Inherently safe, I disagree. I need to find the article, but the other day there was a study on British roads which showed that there was roughly 10 times more cyclist deaths per billion miles traveled than driver deaths per billion miles traveled- and that the cyclist deaths per mile are on a rise (which cannot be explained by rising numbers of cyclists). I suppose one could argue that's simply because cyclists travel much slower and if you examine deaths vs total time traveled you would have a more valid figure, but unfortunately they did not have that figure in the study. Regardless, I now bicycle in place of traveling in my car, going roughly the same distances I would have in my car, and for a utility cyclist this seems to indicate that I am roughly at 10x more risk of dying on my bike than in my car.

Congratulations on living in a safe city where people respect cyclists. You are not typical of the average American cyclist. Let me give you a rundown of the situations I have encountered within the last 2 weeks:

1) Last Friday, there was a hard freeze. Car windows were frosted over in the morning. On average, I would say about 60-70% of the cars I encountered on the ride did not fully defrost their windows before going out on the roads. Furthermore, about 20-30% of the cars I encountered had only scraped a tiny portion of the drivers-side window, and nothing else, leaving me completely invisible to them, despite my 2 rear lights and 2 headlights. I was almost hit by 4 drivers in this condition; once having to ditch into the gutter to avoid being whacked from behind. One potential fifth was making a right turn into the road I was on, and I could not see a thing through their window, so I (correctly) assumed they were just going to pull into the road without looking. They did, and I had already slowed down enough to avoid a 5th potential whacking.

2) Traveling down a 40mph 5-lane road (2/1/2) with no shoulder, so I took the rightmost lane to increase my visibility. A car came upon me quickly and did not switch to the left lane until the very last possible moment. Unfortunately the guy tailgating him had no idea I existed because the car that switched lanes was blocking his view of me. He slammed on the brakes and the horn simultaneously and screamed at me out the window when he forced his way past me without switching lanes (he was halfway in the left lane, no turn indicators used at any point). If this had been some idiot distracted on a cell phone I would be dead right now.

3) Taking the lane on a similar road to the aforementioned for similar reasons. Coming up to a red stoplight, a car squeezed its way past me on the right-hand-side, literally running over the curb at one point, and then slamming on his brakes the second he was in front of me. I have no idea what rational reason anyone on this planet had to do that, but hey, it happens.

4) Riding down a 2-lane street with a wide shoulder. I ride in the shoulder on this road. Car going my direction decides to make a left turn. As I go to pass him, a second car comes zooming up behind him and without braking, swerves right to go around him, and barely misses whacking my
front wheel.


I follow all traffic rules. I am brightly visible at all times. I ride FRAP whenever I feel it is safe to do so, and take the lane when it's safer to do that. I ride lower-traffic roads intentionally to avoid conflict, but this does not help. Cars do not respect cyclists in this city. Congratulations on living in a place where people do take cyclists seriously, but do not attempt to imply that we are doing things wrong just because there's driver/cyclist conflict. There's a whole country out there that operates differently from what you're used to.

Inherently fun, yes. I agree.

Inherently safe, I disagree. I need to find the article, but the other day there was a study on British roads which showed that there was roughly 10 times more cyclist deaths per billion miles traveled than driver deaths per billion miles traveled- and that the cyclist deaths per mile are on a rise (which cannot be explained by rising numbers of cyclists). I suppose one could argue that's simply because cyclists travel much slower and if you examine deaths vs total time traveled you would have a more valid figure, but unfortunately they did not have that figure in the study. Regardless, I now bicycle in place of traveling in my car, going roughly the same distances I would have in my car, and for a utility cyclist this seems to indicate that I am roughly at 10x more risk of dying on my bike than in my car.

Congratulations on living in a safe city where people respect cyclists. You are not typical of the average American cyclist. Let me give you a rundown of the situations I have encountered within the last 2 weeks:

1) Last Friday, there was a hard freeze. Car windows were frosted over in the morning. On average, I would say about 60-70% of the cars I encountered on the ride did not fully defrost their windows before going out on the roads. Furthermore, about 20-30% of the cars I encountered had only scraped a tiny portion of the drivers-side window, and nothing else, leaving me completely invisible to them, despite my 2 rear lights and 2 headlights. I was almost hit by 4 drivers in this condition; once having to ditch into the gutter to avoid being whacked from behind. One potential fifth was making a right turn into the road I was on, and I could not see a thing through their window, so I (correctly) assumed they were just going to pull into the road without looking. They did, and I had already slowed down enough to avoid a 5th potential whacking.

2) Traveling down a 40mph 5-lane road (2/1/2) with no shoulder, so I took the rightmost lane to increase my visibility. A car came upon me quickly and did not switch to the left lane until the very last possible moment. Unfortunately the guy tailgating him had no idea I existed because the car that switched lanes was blocking his view of me. He slammed on the brakes and the horn simultaneously and screamed at me out the window when he forced his way past me without switching lanes (he was halfway in the left lane, no turn indicators used at any point). If this had been some idiot distracted on a cell phone I would be dead right now.

3) Taking the lane on a similar road to the aforementioned for similar reasons. Coming up to a red stoplight, a car squeezed its way past me on the right-hand-side, literally running over the curb at one point, and then slamming on his brakes the second he was in front of me. I have no idea what rational reason anyone on this planet had to do that, but hey, it happens.

4) Riding down a 2-lane street with a wide shoulder. I ride in the shoulder on this road. Car going my direction decides to make a left turn. As I go to pass him, a second car comes zooming up behind him and without braking, swerves right to go around him, and barely misses whacking my
front wheel.


I follow all traffic rules. I am brightly visible at all times. I ride FRAP whenever I feel it is safe to do so, and take the lane when it's safer to do that. I ride lower-traffic roads intentionally to avoid conflict, but this does not help. Cars do not respect cyclists in this city. Congratulations on living in a place where people do take cyclists seriously, but do not attempt to imply that we are doing things wrong just because there's driver/cyclist conflict. There's a whole country out there that operates differently from what you're used to.

Did you have any good times cycling last week, or was it all just avoiding death? Get my point?

I follow all traffic rules. I am brightly visible at all times. I ride FRAP whenever I feel it is safe to do so, and take the lane when it's safer to do that. I ride lower-traffic roads intentionally to avoid conflict, but this does not help. Cars do not respect cyclists in this city. Congratulations on living in a place where people do take cyclists seriously, but do not attempt to imply that we are doing things wrong just because there's driver/cyclist conflict. There's a whole country out there that operates differently from what you're used to.

Lighten up, Francis...I don't think anyone is implying that you are doing anything wrong.

FYI, I can't imagine Buffalo being any worse than Cleveland...and Cleveland doesn't even make the top ten of the least bike-friendly cities I have commuted in or through since the 70s. You want H&D, try just about any city in Florida! :eek:

Look, drivers, like people in general in this country, don't respect anyone other than themselves. especially anyone in their way, whether they be on a bike, in a car, pushing a shopping cart or walking down the street. Lack of respect for other users of the road is SOP in our country...you don't have to accept it or like it, just don't take it personally or that it's just because you ride a bike. Americans are equal opportunity h8ers. ;)

While I agree, and have relative few issues on my daily 30mileRT commute. I main difference is a small incident for a motorist is potentially a large/life threatening incident for someone on a bike. Its more the people who aren't paying attention that is the problem.

This seems to go to the point I made earlier about being exposed and feeling more vulnerable because of it. Ironic how one of the biggest joys of cycling can also be one of the major causes of stress when cycling.

Lighten up, Francis...I don't think anyone is implying that you are doing anything wrong.

FYI, I can't imagine Buffalo being any worse than Cleveland...and Cleveland doesn't even make the top ten of the least bike-friendly cities I have commuted in or through since the 70s. You want H&D, try just about any city in Florida! :eek:

Look, drivers, like people in general in this country, don't respect anyone other than themselves. especially anyone in their way, whether they be on a bike, in a car, pushing a shopping cart or walking down the street. Lack of respect for other users of the road is SOP in our country...you don't have to accept it or like it, just don't take it personally or that it's just because you ride a bike. Americans are equal opportunity h8ers. ;):thumb:

And speaking of this, let's face it Chip, we have some issues.....:roflmao2:

You're using your personal experiences to equate the whole for other cyclists.. don't get me wrong if you look in this forum and you don't realize what a small % of overall it really is... it looks like we're all gambling our lives every ride... well we are just not with as bad of odds as they'd like you to believe. I am glad for you that you don't have to put up with asshats... but I do and believe me helmets and cameras aren't bad things at all. Examples, take the lane on a 15mph bridge doing 16 nearly get run down by motorists doing 40+ who want to ride right behind your rear wheel with their bumper... when they finally do brake that is. Guys who don't care if you have right of way and will swerve into the bike lane.. had that one happen a few times now because I went on my turn at stop signs.... I get that you think your right but it's kinda like the wallstreet protests.. yeah I'm part of the 99% too but they're not speaking my agenda or experiences and neither are you. (I apologize if that anology is too P&R).

Did you have any good times cycling last week, or was it all just avoiding death? Get my point?

Ah. Gotcha.

I do continue to bike to work, despite having a car freely available back at home. I am not hurting for money. I do enjoy the ride when it's not spent avoiding death. There is something that keeps me coming back.

That being said... my office is closing in a little less than a month, and making us all work from home from now on. I am actually looking forward to this greatly, because I am certain that if I continued to bicycle commute to work for another year, I would get burnt out of having to deal with this crap on a regular basis. Now I will be able to cycle when I want, where I want- on my own terms. There's quite a few nearly-empty country roads calling my name next year. Quite a few.

Lighten up, Francis...I don't think anyone is implying that you are doing anything wrong.

FYI, I can't imagine Buffalo being any worse than Cleveland...and Cleveland doesn't even make the top ten of the least bike-friendly cities I have commuted in or through since the 70s. You want H&D, try just about any city in Florida! :eek:

Look, drivers, like people in general in this country, don't respect anyone other than themselves. especially anyone in their way, whether they be on a bike, in a car, pushing a shopping cart or walking down the street. Lack of respect for other users of the road is SOP in our country...you don't have to accept it or like it, just don't take it personally or that it's just because you ride a bike. Americans are equal opportunity h8ers. ;)

I wonder. Where I live there's many Amish people driving carts, and many tractors that drive slowly. I would like to speak to them to see their experiences as well; do drivers treat them just as badly as they treat cyclists?

Isn't the A&S forum by it's very nature going to be a catchall for issues with drivers and bike safety? Hippiebrain, do you post in and read the Commuting Forum? In particular, the "How was your commute today?" thread. Do you find that as negative?

That being said... my office is closing in a little less than a month, and making us all work from home from now on. I am actually looking forward to this greatly, because I am certain that if I continued to bicycle commute to work for another year, I would get burnt out of having to deal with this crap on a regular basis. Now I will be able to cycle when I want, where I want- on my own terms. There's quite a few nearly-empty country roads calling my name next year. Quite a few.

Congratulations, :beer:you have now reached the stage of bicycling that
I achieved when I retired. You are in for a treat, but stay alert, because
even on those nearly empty country roads, Death rids a pale SUV.:injured:

Isn't the A&S forum by it's very nature going to be a catchall for issues with drivers and bike safety? Hippiebrain, do you post in and read the Commuting Forum? In particular, the "How was your commute today?" thread. Do you find that as negative?

Yup, I've even posted there. Thing is, a lot of people new to cycling or considering cycling come to A&S first, and I am concerned about what their first impressions are when they read this forum. Let's face it, it they go here first, they may get scared and never make it to the commuting forum or the living car-free forum, both of which appear much more positive.

Lighten up, Francis...I don't think anyone is implying that you are doing anything wrong.

FYI, I can't imagine Buffalo being any worse than Cleveland...and Cleveland doesn't even make the top ten of the least bike-friendly cities I have commuted in or through since the 70s. You want H&D, try just about any city in Florida! :eek:

Look, drivers, like people in general in this country, don't respect anyone other than themselves. especially anyone in their way, whether they be on a bike, in a car, pushing a shopping cart or walking down the street. Lack of respect for other users of the road is SOP in our country...you don't have to accept it or like it, just don't take it personally or that it's just because you ride a bike. Americans are equal opportunity h8ers. ;)

You know, I have to say that it is too bad we seem to be such "h8ters;" but I saw that very "me me" attitude just a few weeks ago... Woman was stranded in the lane and could not get her car to go... everyone is just driving around her... no one stopping. Then along I come... I happened to be hauling a load, so I was driving... I pull over, get out and tell her to get in her car and I push her off the road. Any of several of the cars with young men that passed could have done the same, but they apparently did not consider it.

Is it an issue of youth, or "this generation," or "the times" or what?

BTW I didn't leave her there stranded at the side of the road either... I actually gave her a ride home.

You know, I have to say that it is too bad we seem to be such "h8ters;" but I saw that very "me me" attitude just a few weeks ago... Woman was stranded in the lane and could not get her car to go... everyone is just driving around her... no one stopping. Then along I come... I happened to be hauling a load, so I was driving... I pull over, get out and tell her to get in her car and I push her off the road. Any of several of the cars with young men that passed could have done the same, but they apparently did not consider it.

Is it an issue of youth, or "this generation," or "the times" or what?

BTW I didn't leave her there stranded at the side of the road either... I actually gave her a ride home.

Unfortunately a lot of that is fear. Once, I think, someone got busted pulling a scam where a dude's wife pretended to be broke down, and when someone stopped the guy would rob them. The media blows these things so far out of proportion that people think everyone who's pulled over is pulling this scam. Sad, really...

.. Thing is, a lot of people new to cycling or considering cycling come to A&S first...

I'm not sure that newer riders come to A&S any more frequently than other forums in BF. I certainly see a lot "first time commuting" threads in the commuters' forum and "my first road bike threads" in Road Cycling
But you could be right, in which case, maybe unterhausen's suggestion of retitling the forum to Safety and Advocacy might make it less prominent and not one of the first forums a newcomer to BF might see.

I wonder. Where I live there's many Amish people driving carts, and many tractors that drive slowly. I would like to speak to them to see their experiences as well; do drivers treat them just as badly as they treat cyclists?

I live on the northern border of Amish country here....yes, drivers treat them just as badly.

Thought-provoking post and responses. I also live in Long Beach and have also wondered what I'm doing wrong -- I experience no conflict or close calls in my cycling activities either. I had assumed that cyclists who encounter a lot of these situations are conflict-seeking drama queens.

After reading these responses, it's apparent to me that not every cycling environment is as accommodating as here. Duh. Makes sense, it just didn't occur to me.

One thing that has occurred to me -- on average, each motorist is engaged in a collision once every 7 years (according the auto collision repair industry). I think these are fairly random events stemming more from carelessness than from maliciousness. It occurs to me that when we ride in traffic, we expose ourselves to these random events. Given that we have the most to lose in a collision with a car, it is incumbent upon us to prevent or avoid those collisions (by whatever means is most effective - taking the lane, riding FRAP, etc.).

Another thing that occurs to me -- if I lived in an unsafe area where cycling among motorists felt like a constant battle, I'd find alternate means of transportation -- I wouldn't continue to complain and place myself at such high risk. So I guess that may be the OP's point -- if cycling in traffic is so bad and doesn't make you happy, why do it?

Thought-provoking post and responses. I also live in Long Beach and have also wondered what I'm doing wrong -- I experience no conflict or close calls in my cycling activities either. I had assumed that cyclists who encounter a lot of these situations are conflict-seeking drama queens.

After reading these responses, it's apparent to me that not every cycling environment is as accommodating as here. Duh. Makes sense, it just didn't occur to me.

One thing that has occurred to me -- on average, each motorist is engaged in a collision once every 7 years (according the auto collision repair industry). I think these are fairly random events stemming more from carelessness than from maliciousness. It occurs to me that when we ride in traffic, we expose ourselves to these random events. Given that we have the most to lose in a collision with a car, it is incumbent upon us to prevent or avoid those collisions (by whatever means is most effective - taking the lane, riding FRAP, etc.).

Another thing that occurs to me -- if I lived in an unsafe area where cycling among motorists felt like a constant battle, I'd find alternate means of transportation -- I wouldn't continue to complain and place myself at such high risk. So I guess that may be the OP's point -- if cycling in traffic is so bad and doesn't make you happy, why do it?

Despite the times it makes me unhappy. Overall it makes me happy and even with the bad times, it makes me much happier than when I decide to drive or take the bus.