Winter Cycling - Black ice

Had my first wipe out of this calendar year today. Winter's finally setting in. Cause? Black ice. Thought this might help you guys out, then.

If you live in a hilly area, slow down everywhere. Weather fluctuates greatly even with a 5 foot drop in elevation - I live in the lower area of town and needed to go somewhere where the elevation was about a couple feet higher.

The road looked wet, so I took care... but there was black ice where I was cornering. Watch out all the time, especially if you know you'll be travelling in "flat" areas or hilly areas. If you're going downhill, the conditions should improve as you roll downwards.

At this time of the year I suggest you don't clip in, as clipping in makes the ride a little more dangerous. My fall today broke my cages and straps because I was trying to get out so desperately as I went down.

Back wheel sliding isn't much of a concern as front wheel sliding. Why? I can't explain; trust me it just is. (Someone helpful will explain it below! :D) Use your back brake more than usual and only feather with the front break.

Be safe out there! I don't want anyone else to wipe out!

I'm sure others will point this out, but get some studded tires. Those things grip to ice better than rubber grips to pavement. If you're at all like me, you'll wind up seeking out the ice, as it is far smoother than the pavement.

Black ice will get you... studded tires that is the main reason i have them.

What do you do when it's freezing but really sunny all day and snowmelt is everywhere? baby the bicycle all the time? You'll cross an area that was in the shade 30 minutes ago and eat ****.

I also recommend against clipless, it can makes the difference between landing on your head and shoulder or getting a leg out in time. That is a big difference.

I can't decide when to put the studs on... I ride to work in the afternoon, at 40-50 degrees (no chance of ice there), but home in the morning at 20 degrees. I worry that there is a chance of frost/ice out there. If I put the studs on, I'll be wearing them out prematurely, but if I don't, I'll risk a broken neck.
I didn't mind the $60/each tires so much, until I realized that I can buy tires for my car for $5 more. Hmmmm.... that's just wrong...

Black ice will get you... studded tires that is the main reason i have them.

What do you do when it's freezing but really sunny all day and snowmelt is everywhere? baby the bicycle all the time? You'll cross an area that was in the shade 30 minutes ago and eat ****.

I also recommend against clipless, it can makes the difference between landing on your head and shoulder or getting a leg out in time. That is a big difference.

Using studded tires depends, largely, on where you live. Been winter commuting for 30+ years and I've never used studs. Never had the need. I have crashed on ice but that's so infrequent that using studs along the Colorado Front Range just isn't worth the hassle. That includes the mini Ice Age of 2006/2007 when there was 10' of packed snow and ice for a mile around my house.

As for clipless, there are disadvantages to 'getting a leg out'. I did a number on my hamstring because I did unclip and got my foot down. My leg went one way and my bike when another. If I'd stayed in the clips, I might have had a bruise but that's a lot easier to endure than a hamstring injury.

But getting out of clipless isn't all that difficult. Talk to any one who mountain bikes with them. We pop out of them instantaneously without thinking about it.

I can't decide when to put the studs on... I ride to work in the afternoon, at 40-50 degrees (no chance of ice there), but home in the morning at 20 degrees. I worry that there is a chance of frost/ice out there. If I put the studs on, I'll be wearing them out prematurely, but if I don't, I'll risk a broken neck.
I didn't mind the $60/each tires so much, until I realized that I can buy tires for my car for $5 more. Hmmmm.... that's just wrong...

Just make sure you buy studded tires with carbide studs. I've been riding on Nokian Mount & Grounds for several years now, and I've never lost a stud, nor have they been worn down. I'm now riding 2-up on them and they're still holding up. A pair of studded bicycle tires will last you MUCH longer than a pair of automobile studded tires.

I prefer clipless in snowy conditions - snow tends to build up on soles of shoes and makes for a slippery experience. I don't want to accelerate out into traffic and have a foot slip off the pedal.

Bought my first ever pair of studded tyresfor this winter. They are usually pointless in the UK - we get snow on the roads for 3-4 days a year, and black ice in the shadows. Then the last two winters we've had heavy snow, packed to ice, for months at a time. Never really worried about riding in the snow, but the packed rutted ice defeated me last year. One crash at least every 20 miles or so was too much.

Just make sure you buy studded tires with carbide studs. I've been riding on Nokian Mount & Grounds for several years now, and I've never lost a stud, nor have they been worn down. I'm now riding 2-up on them and they're still holding up. A pair of studded bicycle tires will last you MUCH longer than a pair of automobile studded tires.
Those are the tires I bought, is it too soon to ride them?
ETA: I put about 40 miles per week on in the winter (no extra long commutes in the cold), but don't care if I burn through a set a year, it would be worth it!

Using studded tires depends, largely, on where you live. Been winter commuting for 30+ years and I've never used studs. Never had the need. I have crashed on ice but that's so infrequent that using studs along the Colorado Front Range just isn't worth the hassle. That includes the mini Ice Age of 2006/2007 when there was 10' of packed snow and ice for a mile around my house.

As for clipless, there are disadvantages to 'getting a leg out'. I did a number on my hamstring because I did unclip and got my foot down. My leg went one way and my bike when another. If I'd stayed in the clips, I might have had a bruise but that's a lot easier to endure than a hamstring injury.

But getting out of clipless isn't all that difficult. Talk to any one who mountain bikes with them. We pop out of them instantaneously without thinking about it.

Sure it depends where you live, but everyday during many parts of the year here you get sun melting snow and it's usually frozen by the time you're heading home again(every snow-storm from jan-feb). Earlier in the year you get black ice formed by random pools of rain or run-off from lawns.

Speaking from experience, i'd rather take a crash without clips. You may have hurt your hamstring but that is easier to fix than your AC joint and whiplash w/ large concussion.

I have also seen many, many mountain bikers crash worse than they had to because they couldn't unclip or they have to sacrifice time to unclip instead of throwing the bicycle and running it or rolling it out. In general the speed at which the crash happens plays a big part in determining that, and crashing can happen pretty fast on ice if you don't see or suspect it.


I prefer clipless in snowy conditions - snow tends to build up on soles of shoes and makes for a slippery experience. I don't want to accelerate out into traffic and have a foot slip off the pedal.

Bought my first ever pair of studded tyresfor this winter. They are usually pointless in the UK - we get snow on the roads for 3-4 days a year, and black ice in the shadows. Then the last two winters we've had heavy snow, packed to ice, for months at a time. Never really worried about riding in the snow, but the packed rutted ice defeated me last year. One crash at least every 20 miles or so was too much.

If you buy platform pedals with larger pins it isn't much of a problem, plus you won't have to purchase expensive spd shoes... you can just use your own winter boots (which is great for commuting and walking around town). That said sometimes i do take my spd shoes even in the winter.

You know it is funny how you say those studded tire are useless, but have you considered that you conditions which would be dangerous on slick rubber are now safe and will slip(sorry) though your memory as uneventful?

I didn't say studded tyres were useless, I said they were usually pointless (in this part of the UK).

However, we have had consecutive winters with prolonged ice, and I'd rather spend on the studded tyres and put up with their weight and drag than crash every time I ride.

Still don't agree with you about clipless vs platforms. It's my experience (of the ice we get here) that there is no warning of a slip. One second you are fine, the next you are on the deck.

I didn't say studded tyres were useless, I said they were usually pointless (in this part of the UK).

However, we have had consecutive winters with prolonged ice, and I'd rather spend on the studded tyres and put up with their weight and drag than crash every time I ride.

Still don't agree with you about clipless vs platforms. It's my experience (of the ice we get here) that there is no warning of a slip. One second you are fine, the next you are on the deck.

Come on. Studded tires always have a point. :)

Feel free to ride your clips while riding on studs, but i would really not recommend it if you're riding on plain ol' rubber. I mean, hockey pucks are made outta rubber and we all know how well they move on ice. I'm surprised you'd rather crash clipped in than not, but that is your choice. Personally i don't want to be attached to a bicycle when i crash, particularly when it's got heavy panniers attached to it.

Just make sure you buy studded tires with carbide studs. I've been riding on Nokian Mount & Grounds for several years now, and I've never lost a stud, nor have they been worn down. I'm now riding 2-up on them and they're still holding up. A pair of studded bicycle tires will last you MUCH longer than a pair of automobile studded tires.

And, the M+G's have fairly low rolling resistance. I've done 40 mile+ rides on pavement with no problems.

Sure it depends where you live, but everyday during many parts of the year here you get sun melting snow and it's usually frozen by the time you're heading home again(every snow-storm from jan-feb). Earlier in the year you get black ice formed by random pools of rain or run-off from lawns.

Like I said, it depends on where you live. Snow here tends not to melt so much as sublime, i.e. convert from solid to vapor without forming liquids. It comes with an average winter humidity of 12%. We don't get a lot of pooling and freezing. And what pooling and freezing we do get, you can easily ride around or you can ride over it. You have to ride gingerly and you have to avoid turning, stopping, etc. but you can ride over it.


Speaking from experience, i'd rather take a crash without clips. You may have hurt your hamstring but that is easier to fix than your AC joint and whiplash w/ large concussion.

I'll speak from experience too. I have crashed on ice. It happens even here. Each time I've crashed I'm amazed at the speed with which it happens. There's no preparation or warning or much chance to react. You are on two wheels and then you aren't.

I've also mountain biked extensively for 30+ years. I learned long ago that when you crash, it's best not to try and save yourself by bailing off the bike...I'm not stupid enough to huck off cliffs where bailing out is a good idea. Generally speaking you want to 'keep your hands, arms and legs inside the car at all times', i.e. you don't what to be throwing you hands out to brace your fall (broken arms and wrists and collar bones) and you don't what to be throwing your legs out to stop you from falling (popped hamstrings and groin tears, broken legs). you usually don't have time to disentangle yourself from the bike because the crash is very rapid...just like ice.

The best avenue of action is none at all. I automatically go rag doll, hold onto the bars and let the bike, my major muscle masses and my helmet take the blows. Same on ice. Trying to bail off the bike only leads to other injuries.



I
have also seen many, many mountain bikers crash worse than they had to because they couldn't unclip or they have to sacrifice time to unclip instead of throwing the bicycle and running it or rolling it out. In general the speed at which the crash happens plays a big part in determining that, and crashing can happen pretty fast on ice if you don't see or suspect it.

Yep. But that speed works against you. You probably can't jump off. So having or not having your feet clipped in isn't going to really matter.

Now say you did have the lightning reflexes to jump off the bike when it goes down on ice. Where are you going to go? Now, instead of two wheels on ice, you have two feet on ice. The ice isn't any less slippery...the reason you are in this pickle in the first place:rolleyes:...and you still have momentum. You are still going to hit the ground but you are all tensed up from trying to save yourself. You are likely to end up with more injuries then if you'd just ridden the bike down.



If you buy platform pedals with larger pins it isn't much of a problem, plus you won't have to purchase expensive spd shoes... you can just use your own winter boots (which is great for commuting and walking around town). That said sometimes i do take my spd shoes even in the winter

You know it is funny how you say those studded tire are useless, but have you considered that you conditions which would be dangerous on slick rubber are now safe and will slip(sorry) though your memory as uneventful?

Well let's see. You are criticizing hairytoes for not liking studs but using them and you are saying that SPDs are dangerous but you use them. Pot. Kettle. Black?

The best avenue of action is none at all. I automatically go rag doll, hold onto the bars and let the bike, my major muscle masses and my helmet take the blows. Same on ice. Trying to bail off the bike only leads to other injuries.

+1 to this. I started commuting recently, first w/ toeclips then with clipless. Skipping the sorry details about too tight straps and clipless newbieism, I fell about 5 times last year. By the 5th time I learned to just tuck in my elbows and knees and land on my side - minimal injury.

On topic, the other danger zone for black ice is any elevated structure (bridge etc). Radiative cooling can make a bridge surface be below freezing when the road around it is 35-37. I went down hard turning into such a bridge and nearly fractured my kneecap.

Am I the only one who has never fallen on snow or ice? I have strapped pedals, but have never even come close to falling. On ice the bike is rock solid (although this is probably because of my useless studded tires :P), in snow, if it's deep enough to risk falling, it's deep enough to make it impossible to pedal. The only times I have to step of the pedals in winter is when the rear wheel starts spinning on a steep hill, and I am no longer moving forward. It seems many of the posters here need to invest in a good pair of snow tires rather than figure out the best way to wipe out (if a truck is barelling along behind you, there is no good way to wipe out IMO).

Like I said, it depends on where you live. Snow here tends not to melt so much as sublime, i.e. convert from solid to vapor without forming liquids. It comes with an average winter humidity of 12%. We don't get a lot of pooling and freezing. And what pooling and freezing we do get, you can easily ride around or you can ride over it. You have to ride gingerly and you have to avoid turning, stopping, etc. but you can ride over it.



I'll speak from experience too. I have crashed on ice. It happens even here. Each time I've crashed I'm amazed at the speed with which it happens. There's no preparation or warning or much chance to react. You are on two wheels and then you aren't.

I've also mountain biked extensively for 30+ years. I learned long ago that when you crash, it's best not to try and save yourself by bailing off the bike...I'm not stupid enough to huck off cliffs where bailing out is a good idea. Generally speaking you want to 'keep your hands, arms and legs inside the car at all times', i.e. you don't what to be throwing you hands out to brace your fall (broken arms and wrists and collar bones) and you don't what to be throwing your legs out to stop you from falling (popped hamstrings and groin tears, broken legs). you usually don't have time to disentangle yourself from the bike because the crash is very rapid...just like ice.

The best avenue of action is none at all. I automatically go rag doll, hold onto the bars and let the bike, my major muscle masses and my helmet take the blows. Same on ice. Trying to bail off the bike only leads to other injuries.



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Yep. But that speed works against you. You probably can't jump off. So having or not having your feet clipped in isn't going to really matter.

Now say you did have the lightning reflexes to jump off the bike when it goes down on ice. Where are you going to go? Now, instead of two wheels on ice, you have two feet on ice. The ice isn't any less slippery...the reason you are in this pickle in the first place:rolleyes:...and you still have momentum. You are still going to hit the ground but you are all tensed up from trying to save yourself. You are likely to end up with more injuries then if you'd just ridden the bike down.



Well let's see. You are criticizing hairytoes for not liking studs but using them and you are saying that SPDs are dangerous but you use them. Pot. Kettle. Black?

You want to crash with 50lbs of bike and panniers attached to your feet while following your rag doll crash philosophy. It's ok for you, but it doesn't sound too intelligent to me. The idea you can't tuck or roll out of a crash or adjust which body part hits first is nonsense.

I can imagine the sort of mountain biking you get up to when you're scoffing at people who are able to very quickly ditch the bicycle. Of course that level of skill needs to be practiced, something which you admit to none of so i guess i understand your skepticism. The worst mtb crash philosophy is to go down with the ship. Do you hang onto the bars for dear life when endoing? I hope not.

Lastly, i don't think i'm being hypocritical by recommending studs and not recommending clipless. Which is all i'm doing.

When people fall on the it's always black ice. Of course. if it were pink ice you'd probably ride around it.

The idea you can't tuck or roll out of a crash or adjust which body part hits first is nonsense.
You must have the reaction speeds of The Flash. Congratulations.

I'm slightly confused as to why you think falling (on ice) when strapped in is more likely to produce joint injuries than if you 'bail out'.

In my experience of crashing on ice, I automatically pull in my elbows as I tense up my torso. My shoulder hits first, closely followed by hip/thigh. By this time I'm on the road, sliding along.

If the bike (and myself) were summersaulting along (maybe 'cause I hit the kerb), yes, I can see that not clipping out could cause major joint injury. I just can't imagine such a situation happening on the road unless it involved a collision with another vehicle. Maybe it is more of a risk when riding on pink ice.

I've never managed to pull such a spectacular event when riding (on the road) on ice. All that happens is that the front wheel goes sideways, I don't get the bike back up in time, and I'm on the road. splaaat.

I use dual platform/clipless pedals (M324s) along with studded tires (Marathon Winters) for snow and ice riding for the very reason that I can get a foot down faster when on the platforms. If you go down on ice riding at speed, there is no time to react, and its makes no difference whether you are clipped in or not. You are going down.

However, riding slowly on snow or snow/ice, particularly if you have short steep hills where it is possible you will spin out and lose all momentum, getting a foot down a nanosecond faster can keep you from falling over. Also, sometimes on heavily rutted ice, instead of walking the bike, I can coast slowly with one foot on the pedal and the other foot hovering over the ice. I don't want to be clipped in doing this.

Nonetheless, the main reason I use dual pedals in the winter is that on really cold or snowy days, I wear hiking boots, which don't have cleats.

You must have the reaction speeds of The Flash. Congratulations.

I'm slightly confused as to why you think falling (on ice) when strapped in is more likely to produce joint injuries than if you 'bail out'.

In my experience of crashing on ice, I automatically pull in my elbows as I tense up my torso. My shoulder hits first, closely followed by hip/thigh. By this time I'm on the road, sliding along.

If the bike (and myself) were summersaulting along (maybe 'cause I hit the kerb), yes, I can see that not clipping out could cause major joint injury. I just can't imagine such a situation happening on the road unless it involved a collision with another vehicle. Maybe it is more of a risk when riding on pink ice.

I've never managed to pull such a spectacular event when riding (on the road) on ice. All that happens is that the front wheel goes sideways, I don't get the bike back up in time, and I'm on the road. splaaat.

Thank you for the compliment.

My main complaint about being clipped in is because the fall happens very quickly the bicycle often separates from you, however being still firmly attached to it via clips the bicycle can add to the "rag doll" effect disturbing any inertial balance you had while still upright. Further, being attached at the feet is really going to hamper your ability todo anything.

I do agree with tuck and roll or at least not extending an arm with intent to stop yourself(the technique is to slap tuck and roll), but landing straight on the shoulder scares me since the AC is so fragile. Many cyclist have the tell-tale golf ball shoulder because the mechanics of falling off a bicycle seem to increase the odds of landing on that joint.

Anyways there might be pink ice if the roadway was pink, point being that ice is the colour of whatever is underneath though perhaps not the case with yellow ice... lol

It seems many of the posters here need to invest in a good pair of snow tires rather than figure out the best way to wipe out

I thought the topic was black ice, not snow. I can't fit studded tires on my commuting bike, 23C is as big as will clear. And I don't want to ride a bike 1.5-2X as heavy just because of 10 linear feet of black ice I occasionally encounter on my commute.

Using studded tires depends, largely, on where you live. Been winter commuting for 30+ years and I've never used studs. Never had the need. I have crashed on ice but that's so infrequent that using studs along the Colorado Front Range just isn't worth the hassle. That includes the mini Ice Age of 2006/2007 when there was 10' of packed snow and ice for a mile around my house.

Thank you. I've never used studs either and don't want to. It makes sense to me, but certainly isn't the consensus. I can make adjustments in my route or speed on the bad days. I hit the road once or twice a winter, but usually at a slow speed under difficult conditions. That's usually ice that I don't see under snow.


The best avenue of action is none at all. I automatically go rag doll, hold onto the bars and let the bike, my major muscle masses and my helmet take the blows. Same on ice. Trying to bail off the bike only leads to other injuries.

I appreciate that one. My worst accident had about a half second warning before a crash. I didn't know what to do, so didn't do anything. After it really did seem like the best thing to do.


When people fall on the it's always black ice. Of course. if it were pink ice you'd probably ride around it.

Enjoyed that.


Nonetheless, the main reason I use dual pedals in the winter is that on really cold or snowy days, I wear hiking boots, which don't have cleats.

Me too. I have a nice pair about 9 inches high that is great for winter snow. Not to mention that there have been a couple of times when I've had to push a bike home because of a flat or a break down. My commute is only 6 miles each way, so I usually do prefer that to trying to work things out at 20 below.

Been a while since I had to worry about black ice. That said, if I know the temperature is near freezing, or lower, I assume the road/path is icy and ride accordingly. Especially in shady areas. I've never bothered with studded tires or chains, but have always ridden, according to what the conditions dictate. If it looks icy, I slow down and ride accordingly type thing.

You want to crash with 50lbs of bike and panniers attached to your feet while following your rag doll crash philosophy. It's ok for you, but it doesn't sound too intelligent to me. The idea you can't tuck or roll out of a crash or adjust which body part hits first is nonsense.

You can't "tuck and roll out of a crash' on ice because of the speed of the event. I've never crashed on ice where I had much time to think about anything. Even in mountain biking, crashes are much slower events and usually preceded by an "Oh crap!" moment. I've never experienced mountain bike crashes that happen as quickly as crashes on ice.

Yes, you might be able to bail on a mountain bike trail and expect a reasonable result. Most often, however, you want to keep trying to avoid going down so you fight to the last minute but slowing down, trying to find a better place to crash, adjust your body, etc. But in a mountain bike crash your front wheel generally isn't sliding out from under you. Brakes, tires and friction are usually effective. On ice brakes tires and friction are ineffective or, more probably, the cause of the crash.


I can imagine the sort of mountain biking you get up to when you're scoffing at people who are able to very quickly ditch the bicycle. Of course that level of skill needs to be practiced, something which you admit to none of so i guess i understand your skepticism. The worst mtb crash philosophy is to go down with the ship. Do you hang onto the bars for dear life when endoing? I hope not.

You don't know me. You don't know where or how or what kind of terrain that I ride. I don't huck off cliffs but that just puts me in with 99.99% of mountain bike riders who either don't have the nerve to huck off cliffs or who don't have a death wish. My mountain biking tends more towards cross country riding which is very, very different from extreme riding. However, if you watch videos of extreme mountain bike riders, even they don't always jump off the bike nor do they always land on their feet. Watch them closely and you'll see that when they hit the ground (if they don't land on their feet) they are almost all in rag doll mode. It's the way you avoid injury. In the video below, you don't see a whole lot of people bailing off their bikes


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDG646cplrg&feature=player_detailpage

As for endos, those fall into two categories: relatively slow speed events or unexpected high speed events. If they are slow, you might try to bail but you likely can't get untangled from the bike and are just have to deal with the embarrassment. If they are high speed events, you have about a much reaction time as you do on ice and all you can do is try to avoid broken bones. I've done both. In neither would I try to jump off the bike. Look at the guy who tries to bail around 55 seconds in the video. All he end up doing was damaging the dangly bits.


Lastly, i don't think i'm being hypocritical by recommending studs and not recommending clipless. Which is all i'm doing.

You busted hairytoes chops about not thinking that studded tires are worth it, you say that clipless are dangerous in winter and then you admit that you ride clipless (occasionally) in those conditions. The reader can draw their own conclusions.

Thank you. I've never used studs either and don't want to. It makes sense to me, but certainly isn't the consensus. I can make adjustments in my route or speed on the bad days. I hit the road once or twice a winter, but usually at a slow speed under difficult conditions. That's usually ice that I don't see under snow.



I appreciate that one. My worst accident had about a half second warning before a crash. I didn't know what to do, so didn't do anything. After it really did seem like the best thing to do.


I suspect that Calgary's winters are a little more like Denver winters than like east coast (Canada or US) winters. Brief, intense snowstorms followed by cold and/or dry conditions. You guys have chinook winds like Denver and I assume that even it's cold, the snow disappears. We call the chinooks 'snow eaters' because the snow just disappears. It's actually a phenomena known as sublimation where the snow goes from solid to vapor without becoming liquid. Under those conditions, we (and you, probably) watch our snow piles go away. I bet you guys have dry powdery snow with a low moisture content, too.

To give others an appreciation for what chinook winds can do, we had a storm here in Denver in 2003. Dumped 29" of snow over two days (starting on a Tuesday). By Friday, you couldn't have told that it had snowed at all. We didn't even have that much water running off it even though the stuff was snowcrete.

I would suggest a knobbed tire in snow, however. It does grab the snow better than a smooth tire and provides a little control for snow...which can be a lot of fun to ride in:thumb:

You can't "tuck and roll out of a crash' on ice because of the speed of the event. I've never crashed on ice where I had much time to think about anything. Even in mountain biking, crashes are much slower events and usually preceded by an "Oh crap!" moment. I've never experienced mountain bike crashes that happen as quickly as crashes on ice.

Yes, you might be able to bail on a mountain bike trail and expect a reasonable result. Most often, however, you want to keep trying to avoid going down so you fight to the last minute but slowing down, trying to find a better place to crash, adjust your body, etc. But in a mountain bike crash your front wheel generally isn't sliding out from under you. Brakes, tires and friction are usually effective. On ice brakes tires and friction are ineffective or, more probably, the cause of the crash.



You don't know me. You don't know where or how or what kind of terrain that I ride. I don't huck off cliffs but that just puts me in with 99.99% of mountain bike riders who either don't have the nerve to huck off cliffs or who don't have a death wish. My mountain biking tends more towards cross country riding which is very, very different from extreme riding. However, if you watch videos of extreme mountain bike riders, even they don't always jump off the bike nor do they always land on their feet. Watch them closely and you'll see that when they hit the ground (if they don't land on their feet) they are almost all in rag doll mode. It's the way you avoid injury. In the video below, you don't see a whole lot of people bailing off their bikes


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDG646cplrg&feature=player_detailpage

As for endos, those fall into two categories: relatively slow speed events or unexpected high speed events. If they are slow, you might try to bail but you likely can't get untangled from the bike and are just have to deal with the embarrassment. If they are high speed events, you have about a much reaction time as you do on ice and all you can do is try to avoid broken bones. I've done both. In neither would I try to jump off the bike. Look at the guy who tries to bail around 55 seconds in the video. All he end up doing was damaging the dangly bits.



You busted hairytoes chops about not thinking that studded tires are worth it, you say that clipless are dangerous in winter and then you admit that you ride clipless (occasionally) in those conditions. The reader can draw their own conclusions.

Hey, why don't you think about this, your bicycle is attached to your feet through cleats and is sliding out from under you very quickly.

Does it take your feet and body over with it?

Now imagine your feet aren't fixed onto the bicycle, the instance it begins to slide out your feet will begin to separate from it, your balance remains mostly the same. All you need todo is lift off and prepare to tuck and roll or you can push the bicycle away from you(which is much easier on ice).

Around here lots of people push bicycles away when doing all sorts of things mountain biking, this includes dirt jumping, drops, skinnies, steep inclines, sliding out in a corner and yes even hucking off cliffs. So pushing the bicycle away is not only for that 1% you see. I know why you want to pigeonhole crashing that way(to falsely prove your point) and that is dishonest. People even hop over the bars by pushing the bicycle under them when they endo.

Nobody wants to go rag dolling down with the ship, you watch the pros crash and you'll see how they try to control it. None of them always hold onto the bicycle. It is bad technique to try and ride out a real crash - that is how you get really hurt.

http://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/594/medium/Screen_shot_2011-11-03_at_3_27_45_PM.jpg

Clipless are dangerous compared to platforms in the winter(i know), studded tires are worth it. Not too hard to understand.

Since this is a thread about riding on black ice, can you come up with examples and films of crashes on black ice?

I really don't understand why you keep harping on about this. Nobody here has said that studded tyres aren't worth it on black ice.

Studded tires are a must for most winters around here. Platform pedals are much safer in winter then clipless. I use platform pedals on my FG bikes in winter, and I never had my foot slip off of the pedal. I don't want to be attatched to my bike when riding in slippery conditions.

Since this is a thread about riding on black ice, can you come up with examples and films of crashes on black ice?

I really don't understand why you keep harping on about this. Nobody here has said that studded tyres aren't worth it on black ice.

I certainly didn't say studded tires aren't worth it on black ice. The problem is cyccommute seems to want to tell people crashing while clipped in, rag dolling around and holding onto the bicycle is safest(post #5). That is the only point worth "harping" on because it's hogwash.

Since this is a thread about riding on black ice, can you come up with examples and films of crashes on black ice?

I really don't understand why you keep harping on about this. Nobody here has said that studded tyres aren't worth it on black ice.

Like this one (http://www.pinkbike.com/video/59102/)? No way was the guy going to be able to bail off the bike and avoid a crash. Or this one (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02a_1197321657)? There are two cyclists that go down about 55 seconds in. Neither appears to have been clipped but it didn't stop them from hitting the ground.

And just for eletrik, here's another series of crashes (http://www.pinkbike.com/video/160581/) (winter mountain biking). Notice just how few of these guys try to bail off the bike during a crash and how many ride it down. In 13 crashes, 2 guys tried to bail with mixed results. One guy even grinds the dangly bits on the rear wheel. That's not good.

Like this one (http://www.pinkbike.com/video/59102/)? No way was the guy going to be able to bail off the bike and avoid a crash. Or this one (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02a_1197321657)? There are two cyclists that go down about 55 seconds in. Neither appears to have been clipped but it didn't stop them from hitting the ground.

And just for eletrik, here's another series of crashes (http://www.pinkbike.com/video/160581/) (winter mountain biking). Notice just how few of these guys try to bail off the bike during a crash and how many ride it down. In 13 crashes, 2 guys tried to bail with mixed results. One guy even grinds the dangly bits on the rear wheel. That's not good.

Yeah, when on the inside of a corner riding it down is usually a good option(one of the few times). However that is the exception to the rule to all those other crashes i mentioned and i didn't see much limp rag dolling there.

It still doesn't solve the problem of the bicycle uncontrollably slipping while you're affixed to it. It's safer to not be attached when that happens.

Like this one (http://www.pinkbike.com/video/59102/)? No way was the guy going to be able to bail off the bike and avoid a crash. Or this one (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02a_1197321657)? There are two cyclists that go down about 55 seconds in. Neither appears to have been clipped but it didn't stop them from hitting the ground.

And just for eletrik, here's another series of crashes (http://www.pinkbike.com/video/160581/) (winter mountain biking). Notice just how few of these guys try to bail off the bike during a crash and how many ride it down. In 13 crashes, 2 guys tried to bail with mixed results. One guy even grinds the dangly bits on the rear wheel. That's not good.

That second example shows a case of what happens when you put a foot out to try to stop the crash - bike going left, foot being pulled to the right . . . . I'm a little old to be attempting to be doing the splits, thank you very much.

Yeah, when on the inside of a corner riding it down is usually a good option(one of the few times). However that is the exception to the rule to all those other crashes i mentioned and i didn't see much limp rag dolling there.

It still doesn't solve the problem of the bicycle uncontrollably slipping while you're affixed to it. It's safer to not be attached when that happens.

Crashing on ice is just about the definition of an inside corner crash. You are highly unlikely to go over the high side when you crash on ice because you don't have much momentum, there's nothing to catch the wheel and you aren't flying through the air. Every ice crash I've experienced is exactly like the crashes in first 2 videos. The bike goes down first and takes the rider with it. Trying to put your foot out does no good whatsoever and, as hairytoes points out, results in you and the bike going one way and the leg you put out going in a very uncomfortable other direction.

Let's look at the physics of crashes on ice: The rear wheel slips out to one side which, in itself, isn't a problem. The front wheel loses traction which is a huge problem. You, as the rider, can't countersteer to get your bike upright again. It's inevitable that you are going to hit the ground. Now the fun stuff happens.

If you try to save yourself by throwing out a body part, that body part is going to hit the ground first with the full momentum of the bicycle, rider and any extra weight the system happens to be carrying. If you throw out your leg, the bicycle and your body are moving in one direction while your leg is moving in another direction. If you like being the wishbone at Thanksgiving, this will be your moment. But, just like the wishbone, something is likely to break. Even the most limber person is probably not going to be able to do the splits without some preparation and cold isn't conducive to limber muscles, joints and ligaments. The best course to keep your legs inside the bicycle.

If you throw out an arm, your arm from wrist to shoulder to neck becomes the focus of an awful lot of load. If you don't break your wrist, you could very easily transmit that force up the arm to break any one of several bones along the way up to the collar. The human collar bone is a terribly fragile bone and pretty painful to break and slow to heal. You could also tear a whole host of muscles and ligaments. You could pull your arms in but now your shoulder...the bit you fear hurting...is in danger.

Now say that you could jump clear of the bike. What are you planning on doing to avoid hitting your other bits on the ground. You've got momentum, you've got a nearly frictionless surface, you've got a biped sliding on ice on two (or one) feet. You are likely to end up on the ground in a heap anyway. You've almost guaranteed that some part of your body is going to make a painful impact with the ground. Which part? Quick, you don't have a lot of time to decide. Take it on the coccyx...even more painful than a collar bone. Take it at the shoulder...wait, that's what you are afraid of. Too late. Something hit and it's gonna hurt.

Again, say you could jump clear of the bike and not manage to hurt yourself. You are sliding like a seal on an iceberg. The bike is sliding but the bike has all kind of protuberances that are slowing it down. You are sliding in the same direction but the bike is sliding a little slower than you are. Do the math. What hits what?

Let's say your get clear of the bike. You are still a seal on an iceberg. If you happen to hit something, you hit it. Just like the fourth guy (about 20 seconds) in the Innerleithen video who just about creams the tree. Most of the other riders crashing in the video let the bike take the hit to the tree. He tries to save himself and almost becomes a limb for his efforts.

Now look what happens if you stay with the bike: Some muscle mass is going to hit the ground in either case. But the bike becomes an extension of your skeleton and the handlebars, frame and bags take a lot of the impact. By being loose during the fall, your connective tissues take less of a beating. By hanging onto the bars, you know where the bike is and it doesn't become a separate missile that you can hit or will hit you. The bars also let you leverage yourself away from the bike so that that all important shoulder joint doesn't get damaged.

cycocommute, if the rear wheel gives out, you tend to roll sideways. If the front packs it in, you are usually heading sideways, but slightly forward. Sometimes you are lucky enough to get the bike to take most of the hit. Whenever I've crashed I tend to stick out my arm... even though I know its the worst thing to do.

Luckily in winter I'm going so slow, there is little or no damage. I've fallen 3 times.

Prevention is better then cure. It's best not to fall in a first place. That's what studded tires are for.. to make your winter commute Safer and minimize the possibility of crashing on ice. Yes I know some people crash even with studs but then you are doing something wrong...Sure studded tires have their limits, but they will allow you to ride safely in conditions where regular tires would never be able to... I don't understand why some people are against using studs. Do you really enjoy crashing on ice ?? Do you like to show off your tuck and roll and rag doll skills in front of other people ? I prefer not to crash that's why I use studs. Around where I live it would be absolutly stupid and foolish not to use studded tires in winter time. As for pedals, I will continue to use my platforms, I don't even want to think about clipless.

Crashing on ice is just about the definition of an inside corner crash. You are highly unlikely to go over the high side when you crash on ice because you don't have much momentum, there's nothing to catch the wheel and you aren't flying through the air. Every ice crash I've experienced is exactly like the crashes in first 2 videos. The bike goes down first and takes the rider with it. Trying to put your foot out does no good whatsoever and, as hairytoes points out, results in you and the bike going one way and the leg you put out going in a very uncomfortable other direction.

Let's look at the physics of crashes on ice: The rear wheel slips out to one side which, in itself, isn't a problem. The front wheel loses traction which is a huge problem. You, as the rider, can't countersteer to get your bike upright again. It's inevitable that you are going to hit the ground. Now the fun stuff happens.

If you try to save yourself by throwing out a body part, that body part is going to hit the ground first with the full momentum of the bicycle, rider and any extra weight the system happens to be carrying. If you throw out your leg, the bicycle and your body are moving in one direction while your leg is moving in another direction. If you like being the wishbone at Thanksgiving, this will be your moment. But, just like the wishbone, something is likely to break. Even the most limber person is probably not going to be able to do the splits without some preparation and cold isn't conducive to limber muscles, joints and ligaments. The best course to keep your legs inside the bicycle.

If you throw out an arm, your arm from wrist to shoulder to neck becomes the focus of an awful lot of load. If you don't break your wrist, you could very easily transmit that force up the arm to break any one of several bones along the way up to the collar. The human collar bone is a terribly fragile bone and pretty painful to break and slow to heal. You could also tear a whole host of muscles and ligaments. You could pull your arms in but now your shoulder...the bit you fear hurting...is in danger.

Now say that you could jump clear of the bike. What are you planning on doing to avoid hitting your other bits on the ground. You've got momentum, you've got a nearly frictionless surface, you've got a biped sliding on ice on two (or one) feet. You are likely to end up on the ground in a heap anyway. You've almost guaranteed that some part of your body is going to make a painful impact with the ground. Which part? Quick, you don't have a lot of time to decide. Take it on the coccyx...even more painful than a collar bone. Take it at the shoulder...wait, that's what you are afraid of. Too late. Something hit and it's gonna hurt.

Again, say you could jump clear of the bike and not manage to hurt yourself. You are sliding like a seal on an iceberg. The bike is sliding but the bike has all kind of protuberances that are slowing it down. You are sliding in the same direction but the bike is sliding a little slower than you are. Do the math. What hits what?

Let's say your get clear of the bike. You are still a seal on an iceberg. If you happen to hit something, you hit it. Just like the fourth guy (about 20 seconds) in the Innerleithen video who just about creams the tree. Most of the other riders crashing in the video let the bike take the hit to the tree. He tries to save himself and almost becomes a limb for his efforts.

Now look what happens if you stay with the bike: Some muscle mass is going to hit the ground in either case. But the bike becomes an extension of your skeleton and the handlebars, frame and bags take a lot of the impact. By being loose during the fall, your connective tissues take less of a beating. By hanging onto the bars, you know where the bike is and it doesn't become a separate missile that you can hit or will hit you. The bars also let you leverage yourself away from the bike so that that all important shoulder joint doesn't get damaged.

For an inside corner crash to work you need traction to ride the bicycle down - you can't ride a bicycle down on ice.

Here is how i crash on ice, the bicycle slips out from under me I push it down and drop my feet to the ground and then fall on my ass or roll.

Falling on your side is a very bad idea, for reasons you mentioned, but that is what will happen with clips and ice because you'll never get detached from the bicycle in time unless you see it coming.

Here is how i crash on ice, the bicycle slips out from under me I push it down and drop my feet to the ground and then fall on my ass or roll.
Either you are riding in slo-mo, or you have reflexes and moves faster than Neo dodging bullets.

I've never had a crash on ice where there has been time to think about moving or pushing the bike. If it's happening that slowly, I can always pull the bike back under me and keep going. That's riding without studs, maybe it's different with studs.

My crashes have all happened on ice so slick it's been impossible to walk, and I've had to crawl to get to some grass or something where I can get upright again. If you are thinking "why didn't this idiot get studded tyres", it's because I had a 25mile commute where only the first 2.5miles had any ice. The rest was gritted, and no snow.

For an inside corner crash to work you need traction to ride the bicycle down - you can't ride a bicycle down on ice.

Here is how i crash on ice, the bicycle slips out from under me I push it down and drop my feet to the ground and then fall on my ass or roll.

Falling on your side is a very bad idea, for reasons you mentioned, but that is what will happen with clips and ice because you'll never get detached from the bicycle in time unless you see it coming.

In the video, those guys are crashing on an inside corner because they don't have traction. They are riding the bike down because they don't have anywhere else to go. And what do you mean by "...you can't ride a bike down on ice"? Where are you going to go? Hover in mid-air? Jump to a higher plane? Take flight? Jaunte to safety?


Either you are riding in slo-mo, or you have reflexes and moves faster than Neo dodging bullets.

I've never had a crash on ice where there has been time to think about moving or pushing the bike. If it's happening that slowly, I can always pull the bike back under me and keep going. That's riding without studs, maybe it's different with studs.

My crashes have all happened on ice so slick it's been impossible to walk, and I've had to crawl to get to some grass or something where I can get upright again. If you are thinking "why didn't this idiot get studded tyres", it's because I had a 25mile commute where only the first 2.5miles had any ice. The rest was gritted, and no snow.

I know where you are coming from. If I'm on snow pack, the control is different from glare ice. My experiences with glare ice have been more along the line of those two guys in the second video. No time to react. No time to think. You are just on the ground.

Prevention is better then cure. It's best not to fall in a first place. That's what studded tires are for.. to make your winter commute Safer and minimize the possibility of crashing on ice. Yes I know some people crash even with studs but then you are doing something wrong...Sure studded tires have their limits, but they will allow you to ride safely in conditions where regular tires would never be able to... I don't understand why some people are against using studs. Do you really enjoy crashing on ice ?? Do you like to show off your tuck and roll and rag doll skills in front of other people ? I prefer not to crash that's why I use studs. Around where I live it would be absolutly stupid and foolish not to use studded tires in winter time. As for pedals, I will continue to use my platforms, I don't even want to think about clipless.

The operative words are "around here". That was my original point. Using studs is highly dependent on location, weather and conditions. I've commuted in the Denver area for 30 years. I've never used studs. I've crashed on ice a handful of times in that 30 years out of, literally, thousands of commuting days. Quite frankly, studs just aren't all that useful in my location. We just don't have that many occasions that they are needed.

Most of my crashes aren't really spectator sports. I don't like to crash. I'm not 'showing off' my skills. I'm using my skills to keep me from being injured. If you don't know how to crash and how to react to a crash, your likelihood of injury increases significantly...whether you are clipped into the pedals or not. Of course you fight like crazy to keep crashes from happening but once you've reached the point of no return, it's best to just let them happen, relax and enjoy the ride as much as is humanly possible.

Here you need ice studs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqo4hwnJt6Y&feature=related

I certainly didn't say studded tires aren't worth it on black ice. The problem is cyccommute seems to want to tell people crashing while clipped in, rag dolling around and holding onto the bicycle is safest(post #5). That is the only point worth "harping" on because it's hogwash.

I'm with electrik. Cycocommute's contrarian nature is leading him to give REALLY POOR ADVICE in this thread.

Platform pedals and studded tires, people. if you have any concerns at all, it's better to run studs.

I like having two identical wheelsets for the off season commuter - one with studs- with cassette installed, switching out wheels for studded tires takes less than 5 minutes in the morning if you have any concerns at all.

i'd rather be slightly slower and have the security of studs, then be on the bike as ice forms around your commute as it gets dark.

My advice if you're riding into a patch of black ice without studs? both feet on the ground, straddling bike, get low and loose. 4 points of contact. it's like glissading with a bike between your legs.

In the video, those guys are crashing on an inside corner because they don't have traction. They are riding the bike down because they don't have anywhere else to go. And what do you mean by "...you can't ride a bike down on ice"? Where are you going to go? Hover in mid-air? Jump to a higher plane? Take flight? Jaunte to safety?


Have you even ridden a bicycle to the ground? It only works because you get a bit of resistance from the dirt as you slid out thereby converting some of your vertical energy into the pushing out of dirt. Think about a berm. There is no such resistance on ice, the second you lean the body over you will just brutally slap right over on your shoulder and head. Not pretty, but thankfully the same lack of resistance means the bicycle can slid out right from under you so quickly that you're left standing mostly upright like a table set after the tablecloth has been rapidly pulled out from under it.

Here you need ice studs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqo4hwnJt6Y&feature=related

I see some of the riders getting a foot down to stay upright. Studs would have helped for sure, but every rider clipped in under those conditions would have fallen.

I see people getting a foot down and still falling.

Studs are the only real answer in conditions like those.

i'd like to set up a cruiser 7 speed bike with studded tires & saddle set low enough feet can squarely touch ground while riding.

Been a long time drift steerer but have come to like the security of studded tires for winter riding.

I remember from my youth, misjudging speeds on downhills, drifting gracefully into cars while making turns. Once you lose your adhesion to the ground and everything is sliding, a rider has little control over the bike.

black ice is much less forgiving and slick than any of the white ice conditions in this video i found of kids drifting their BMX bikes. one of the kids drifts into an oncoming vehicle at about 3:00 into the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYoU1Pqfw6U&feature=fvwrel

This guy is using a studded tire on the front.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeOLKbhtg_E

I see some of the riders getting a foot down to stay upright. Studs would have helped for sure, but every rider clipped in under those conditions would have fallen.

Nearly every rider in the video feel over. Being clipped or not being clipped wouldn't have made a difference, although clipping in doesn't mean that you can't get out of the clipless pedals quickly. Several of the riders who did put their foot out caught it on the lip of the pavement. I'll bet that hurt more then just falling down. It didn't save them from crashing.

I'm with electrik. Cycocommute's contrarian nature is leading him to give REALLY POOR ADVICE in this thread.

Platform pedals and studded tires, people. if you have any concerns at all, it's better to run studs.

I like having two identical wheelsets for the off season commuter - one with studs- with cassette installed, switching out wheels for studded tires takes less than 5 minutes in the morning if you have any concerns at all.

i'd rather be slightly slower and have the security of studs, then be on the bike as ice forms around your commute as it gets dark.

My advice if you're riding into a patch of black ice without studs? both feet on the ground, straddling bike, get low and loose. 4 points of contact. it's like glissading with a bike between your legs.

My advice on studded tires has always been "use them if you need them". Not everyone in all locations needs them.

As for pedals, clipless aren't death traps. My feet can pop out of a set of clipless and be on the ground as quickly as any one on platforms...not that putting your foot out is going to get you much of anywhere in a crash on black ice. We've see video after video of people crashing on glare ice now and in most case getting your foot on the ground has little effect. It is not going to save you from crashing. Look at that

My advice on riding over a patch of black ice without studs is to not do anything stupid when you hit it. Don't try to slow down in the middle of it (you should do that before you get on it). Put your feet parallel to the ground and coast across. Don't turn, don't change course, don't try to stop, and, in the words of Loudon, "don't laugh and don't fart and don't sneeze". If you do have to stop, do it very carefully with very gentle brake pressure.

And, if conditions are like those in one of the videos I posted or like those in the Belgium video and you don't have studs, maybe it's a day not to go out on a bicycle. Even if you do have studs, it might be prudent to not go bicycling. Studs won't protect you from sliding cars.


Have you even ridden a bicycle to the ground? It only works because you get a bit of resistance from the dirt as you slid out thereby converting some of your vertical energy into the pushing out of dirt. Think about a berm. There is no such resistance on ice, the second you lean the body over you will just brutally slap right over on your shoulder and head. Not pretty, but thankfully the same lack of resistance means the bicycle can slid out right from under you so quickly that you're left standing mostly upright like a table set after the tablecloth has been rapidly pulled out from under it.

:roflmao2:"Have you even ridden a bicycle to the ground?":roflmao2: You mean crashed right?:roflmao2: Damned tootin'! I've crashed on dirt, I've crashed on pavement, I've crashed on wet pavement, I've crashed on snow, I've crashed on ice. In each and every case, my shoulder and head aren't the first thing to hit the ground. Nor are yours, I'd hazard a guess, unless you have really really broad shoulders...like 6 feet wide.

The first thing to hit the ground when the bike goes out from under you to the side is your thighs and butt. Look at all the videos posted. I don't see a single one...even the girl in the Belgium video who crashes at high speed...hit their shoulders. They hit on their legs, then their hip, then their torso. By the time their shoulders get to the pavement most of the impact has been dissipated by the rest of their body and their bicycle.

And I didn't see a single one left standing "like a table set after the tablecloth has been rapidly pulled out from under it" while their bike is sliding away from them.

Have you even ridden a bicycle to the ground? It only works because you get a bit of resistance from the dirt as you slid out thereby converting some of your vertical energy into the pushing out of dirt. Think about a berm. There is no such resistance on ice, the second you lean the body over you will just brutally slap right over on your shoulder and head. Not pretty, but thankfully the same lack of resistance means the bicycle can slid out right from under you so quickly that you're left standing mostly upright like a table set after the tablecloth has been rapidly pulled out from under it.

That happened to me once on a motorcycle, it went out from under on a corner and I skated on my boots all the way to the far corner of the intersection. I felt like that was freakish luck though. I still agree with you though because you can't do a proper side fall or back fall if your feet aren't free. You can do them if you're not encumbered, no matter how fast the accident happens.

cyccommute is surely right that it's better to not crash in the first place, and the bottom line is when we do, we all just do what we can. I want studded tires so bad I can taste it, but we'll only have 3 or 4 days where I'd need them. If we're unlucky. So it's mountain bike, go slow, and probably fall a few times.

On topic, the other danger zone for black ice is any elevated structure (bridge etc). Radiative cooling can make a bridge surface be below freezing when the road around it is 35-37. I went down hard turning into such a bridge and nearly fractured my kneecap.

I am concerned about frost on the road -- Do I need studs for our nighttime November frost, or is that overkill? Forecast temp tonight @ commute time is about 35 deg. F, dewpt high 20s, windy, sky cover nil. Ground is far from frozen yet, heavy frost this morning, colder tonight than last. Am ordering studded tires and preparing the bike it's to go on, but neither are ready yet. Thanks for opinions/experiences. Sorry if this is hijacking-- Does the o.p.'s 'black ice' = frost?