Fifty Plus (50+) - ETHICS IN SPORTSMANSHIP (or the lack thereof)

Big money in professional sports, product endorsements, etc. can sure corrupt simple sports like bicycling. I saw this in this morning's news...

*****

American Cyclist Landis Convicted in France Over Doping Lab Hacking
Published November 10, 2011
| Associated Press


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/10/american-cyclist-landis-convicted-in-france-over-doping-lab-hacking/?test=latestnews#ixzz1dJLe6Hgx

"Landis" and "ethics" don't seem to belong in the same paragraph.

Professional "sports" is a business.

As for business ethics... Some have it, some don't.

Very sad in any case.

Is the term "business ethics" an oxymoron?

seems kind of odd to give him a suspended sentence

The use of performance enhancing drugs has been endemic in bike racing since the early years of the TDF. It's virtually certain that all the historic cycling greats doped. Many have said as much. And as many have said, if others are doing it, you need to do it too to level the playing field. What ever you think of Landis with all his foibles, he just happens to be one who got caught.

I'll mention that USAF pilots flying long missions are given and use amphetamines to maintain alertness and performance. That's doping in the name of national security.

Is the term "business ethics" an oxymoron?

Ya got yer good ethics, and ya got yer bad ethics... Usually it's a crapshoot.

The use of performance enhancing drugs has been endemic in bike racing since the early years of the TDF.
Not only that, races always have been bought and sold. And the strongest rider in a race seldom is the winner.

I happen to like professional cycling because of this. Because the story of any race is never the story the television broadcast seems to show. Some may call this cynical. But I call the people who expect ethics, or fair play, naive.

Cycling is a very Catholic sport, in its origin as well, and Catholics simply have always been able to buy forgiveness for their sins.

Is the term "business ethics" an oxymoron?
:lol::thumb:

Not only that, races always have been bought and sold. And the strongest rider in a race seldom is the winner.

I happen to like professional cycling because of this. Because the story of any race is never the story the television broadcast seems to show. Some may call this cynical. But I call the people who expect ethics, or fair play, naive.

Cycling is a very Catholic sport, in its origin as well, and Catholics simply have always been able to buy forgiveness for their sins.

Personally, I think they should bring back indulgences.

Ironically, in the US, withholding relevant information from a case would be grounds for dismissal.

As long as there are huge rewards associated with doing well in an event, you'll always have people willing to do unreasonable things to try to gain an advantage. The only real solution is to remove the reward associated with winning, and that's unlikely, at least not intentinally.

I see from the comments here that hacking into someone else's computer system to tamper with evidence is not relevant. Very odd.

I see from the comments here that hacking into someone else's computer system to tamper with evidence is not relevant. Very odd.

I have not read any reports that suggest there was an attempt to tamper with evidence, but rather to obtain copies of documents. According to this report (http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/11/news/landis-and-baker-convicted-in-france-in-hacking-case_197669) and this one (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landis-convicted-in-hacking-case), Landis and his coach were convicted not of hacking, but of receiving documents which were illegally obtained by hacking. I wonder why he was not allowed access to the information legally.

Is the term "business ethics" an oxymoron?

No. Our personal ethical obligations do not go on holiday during business hours. That an offense against ethical standards occurs on the job is no reasonable defense.

Sportsmanship and Ethics do not go together---The higher up the sporting rung you go.

I remember many years ago when I started Karting. The higher up the rung- the less ethics you have. Difference was that you abided by all the rules--but just learnt to bend them better. Those that bent them too far got caught.

Recently someone wrote a little column in the WSJ about poaching marathons (running in them without paying the entry fee). They were soundly condemned by the readership.

Ethics are alive and well.

Ethics are alive and well.

Following the Penn State scandal, I'd say that particular jury is still out.

Following the Penn State scandal, I'd say that particular jury is still out.

I thought it odd that the students were rioting and overturning a TV van to demonstrate their support for the pedophile group. Interesting.

Why would we expect sports to have any higher ethics than any other part of society? But then, I ain't turnin' no vans over because of no pedophile...

Then there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzD9oe1sjQg&feature=related

Why would we expect sports to have any higher ethics than any other part of society? But then, I ain't turnin' no vans over because of no pedophile...

I guess because some of us think people in the public eye should help set the tone for behavior in society. Of course we are fewer every day. :(

I thought one of the benefits of a college education was learning to weigh the facts before making reasoned decisions ad taking action. Guess that doesn't apply any more - at least at Penn State. What an absolutely idiotic response.

Well, any excuse for a riot, I guess. Even supporting folks so obsessed over winning they failed to report a 10-year-old being raped.

When I was teaching, the law was that if even ANY child abuse was suspected, the teacher had to report it directly to Social Services or the police, not just to the principal of the school. If you did not report it directly yourself, you broke the law.

When I was teaching, the law was that if even ANY child abuse was suspected, the teacher had to report it directly to Social Services or the police, not just to the principal of the school. If you did not report it directly yourself, you broke the law.

FWIW, my ex-wife was a school social worker at a middle school here in CT. One of her responsibilities was to act as the person to whom abuse of students was reported. One day a teacher reported that a custodian had come to her because he had witnessed a male teacher use excessive force on a student. My ex reported it to her Principal as required by school rules. The school did nothing. She ended up reporting it to a State agency after a very lengthy and contentious battle with school authorities. The long and short of it is that the State agency said it was too late to do anything and the school ended up phasing her job out via budget cuts. She had been there for 14 yrs.

http://www.courant.com/news/breaking/mc-penn-state-paterno-victims-20111111,0,1815607.story

"They heard from a series of speakers, including a young man who identified himself as a 2007 alumnus.

His voice breaking, he told the crowd, "We are Penn State, and we are hurting and we are sorry. But the only thing that matters is that we are here for [the alleged victims].

LaVar Arrington, a former Penn State football star, said the past week's events were "a call to duty."

"This is a challenge to all of us," he said. "The biggest crime we can commit is to leave here and forget what happened."

He added later, "The challenge has been issued. Now let it be known that we waged war at Penn State to make a difference."

I guess because some of us think people in the public eye should help set the tone for behavior in society. Of course we are fewer every day. :(

I was a high school coach for a time. I had the good pleasure of coaching at a small private school, where my values = the values of the administration. My perspective was that I had the honor of being trusted by parents to get to help raise their kids for about two hours each day. My job was to use soccer to help boys grow up into young men. Society is really interesting - the boys got it, but the parents often did not. Our "ethics" in this society starts with what is mine, and at best involves a negotiation as to what is yours. The most flack I caught was when I had to deal with tough issues - again, not from the boys, but from parents and sometimes administrators.

The kids turning over vans are just idiot kids (most of us were idiots as kids), but the best way to un-idiot them would have been to arrest them and give 'em a night and a meal courtesy of the city. But, we can't do that, they're just kids!:notamused:

All, totally, 100% down to the last shred of respect I ever had for Paterno is gone. He is an accomplice, not a victim. He protected his buddies, made use of the booster influence to keep it quiet. He succumbed to the pressure to stay famous. He showed us by his actions his ethics.

We all think we are more ethical than everybody else (or something like that) - we are all human and can fail. But in this discussion, how stiff is your spine?

Is your spine stiff enough to report your colleague who is messin' with little boys? What about not padding the expense account from that last trip? Or reporting EVERY bit of income on your taxes and not exaggerating a bit on deductions? Is it stiff enough to take your "medicine" and not try to justify your actions by implication of others? Are you man enough to ride and race clean, or is another yellow jersey just too tempting?

Really complex questions, but comes down to the fundamentals.

Folks used to tell me that sports was the equalizer, where everyone could be their best. I disagree - Sporting competition is where you get to learn just who someone is: on the sports field, you are simply buck naked, with your only garment being your character, whether it's cycling or football or curling.

FWIW, my ex-wife was a school social worker at a middle school here in CT. One of her responsibilities was to act as the person to whom abuse of students was reported. One day a teacher reported that a custodian had come to her because he had witnessed a male teacher use excessive force on a student. My ex reported it to her Principal as required by school rules. The school did nothing. She ended up reporting it to a State agency after a very lengthy and contentious battle with school authorities. The long and short of it is that the State agency said it was too late to do anything and the school ended up phasing her job out via budget cuts. She had been there for 14 yrs.

Sadly, that is one of the prices that one pays for being a "good citizen."

Bureaucracies hate "good citizens" and retaliate in many different ways.

I do a LOT of work with parents of adult children with profound disabilities. The services they get for their children are not mandated, but are at the "whim" so to speak of the bureaucracies. Talk about a bunch of cowed parents - afraid to stand up to huge abuses in "the system" in fear of losing or compromising services. Including reporting abuse.

Here are some of the issues we deal with. (http://www.pad-co.info)

Here are some of the parent comments from a retaliation survey we did:

http://www.ourwebs.info/retaliation.htm

Why can't the colleges and universities just abandon their sports program, I mean competition between schools, not intramural sports. This is not to be taken as an over reaction to Penn State but a more fundamental question about higher education, its primary purposes.

Can you name a college that did just that? I can think of two: University of Chicago and University of San Francisco (Bill Russell).

Why can't the colleges and universities just abandon their sports program, I mean competition between schools, not intramural sports. This is not to be taken as an over reaction to Penn State but a more fundamental question about higher education, its primary purposes.

Can you name a college that did just that? I can think of two: University of Chicago and University of San Francisco (Bill Russell).

I think that you have USF (which still seems to be involved in intercollegiate sports -- see http://www.usfca.edu/) mixed up with UC San Francisco, which isn't.
That being said, I totally agree with your sentiment. I'm a professor and I'm not anti-sports, but I'd much rather see schools making sure that students engage in physical activity of some kind rather than spending a lot of increasingly scarce funds on having a relatively small part of the student body engage in intercollegiate competition.

But to answer your question, I can think of a couple of reasons why not:
•Alumni would go nuts and reduce their donations (even the ones that go to non-athletic causes)
•Taxpayers would revolt if state-supported schools stopped providing this "free" entertainment
•Parents, especially those angling for athletic scholarships, would be enraged and sue the schools

Whether the kids would care I'm not so sure. THey might not if they had a non-collegiate venue to engage in their sport -- as those who engage in largely non-collegiate sports such as skiing, skating and cycling already are expected to.

Why can't the colleges and universities just abandon their sports program, I mean competition between schools, not intramural sports. This is not to be taken as an over reaction to Penn State but a more fundamental question about higher education, its primary purposes.

Can you name a college that did just that? I can think of two: University of Chicago and University of San Francisco (Bill Russell).
T'ain't gonna happen today - far too much money involved. Way too much money.

Recently someone wrote a little column in the WSJ about poaching marathons (running in them without paying the entry fee). They were soundly condemned by the readership.

Ethics are alive and well.

How much money can you make in a marathon?

I think that you have USF (which still seems to be involved in intercollegiate sports -- see http://www.usfca.edu/) mixed up with UC San Francisco, which isn't.
That being said, I totally agree with your sentiment. I'm a professor and I'm not anti-sports, but I'd much rather see schools making sure that students engage in physical activity of some kind rather than spending a lot of increasingly scarce funds on having a relatively small part of the student body engage in intercollegiate competition.

But to answer your question, I can think of a couple of reasons why not:
•Alumni would go nuts and reduce their donations (even the ones that go to non-athletic causes)
•Taxpayers would revolt if state-supported schools stopped providing this "free" entertainment
•Parents, especially those angling for athletic scholarships, would be enraged and sue the schools

Whether the kids would care I'm not so sure. THey might not if they had a non-collegiate venue to engage in their sport -- as those who engage in largely non-collegiate sports such as skiing, skating and cycling already are expected to.

Scarce funds is what parents and alumni should understand. As we see more NCAA athletes bolting out after one year for the professional contracts, there should be a softening of college sports as some kind of entertainment or money maker for the school's alumni. If, one by one, a school drops out of its minor sports and eventually drops out all together, then the only one's left standing will have nobody the compete against, except for the pros.

Has anyone ever done a study on the International college sports scene? Do other countries around the world have such programs? I would imagine soccer would be like our football. Basketball is already international.

When the president taps me to become the "education Czar" ( I'm expecting a call soon) I'll will immediately activate my plan for the reorganization of college sports. Effective immediately will be the separation of all college athletic departments from the academic departments. all althetes will be enrolled in the new athletic college and will be barred from taking any academic classes. They can play on their respective teams for four years after which they will receive a Certificate of Participation for the sports they played. No college degree wil be granted. If an athlete chooses to earn a college, he/she will have to reapply to the academic wing of the college. All athletic departments will fund themselves from ticket sales, contributions, and fees They will have new names, such as Penn State Altletic University with no affiliation with the reald Penn state. Athletic departments will rent facilities from the real university unless they contract to actually buy them. In short, no college or university will have any teams. Only the athletic wings associated with them will have teams. If you are a bright athlete and want a real degree, you will have to put your four years in in the academic wing instead of being in the athletic wing or after you finish your team participation. No living on campus, dining in dining halls etc. will be open to the athletes. They are, in effect, attending a completely different school. No academic courses will be open to athletes registered in the athletic school.
Under my system, academics and sports are disassociated from one another, as they should be. I've taught enough athletes in my career to know that academics and sports are not compatible in most cases.

When the president taps me to become the "education Czar" ( I'm expecting a call soon) I'll will immediately activate my plan for the reorganization of college sports. Effective immediately will be the separation of all college athletic departments from the academic departments. all althetes will be enrolled in the new athletic college and will be barred from taking any academic classes. They can play on their respective teams for four years after which they will receive a Certificate of Participation for the sports they played. No college degree wil be granted. If an athlete chooses to earn a college, he/she will have to reapply to the academic wing of the college. All athletic departments will fund themselves from ticket sales, contributions, and fees They will have new names, such as Penn State Altletic University with no affiliation with the reald Penn state. Athletic departments will rent facilities from the real university unless they contract to actually buy them. In short, no college or university will have any teams. Only the athletic wings associated with them will have teams. If you are a bright athlete and want a real degree, you will have to put your four years in in the academic wing instead of being in the athletic wing or after you finish your team participation. No living on campus, dining in dining halls etc. will be open to the athletes. They are, in effect, attending a completely different school. No academic courses will be open to athletes registered in the athletic school.
Under my system, academics and sports are disassociated from one another, as they should be. I've taught enough athletes in my career to know that academics and sports are not compatible in most cases.

Never mind a call from the president, you need to be the president.

Why can't the colleges and universities just abandon their sports program, I mean competition between schools, not intramural sports. This is not to be taken as an over reaction to Penn State but a more fundamental question about higher education, its primary purposes.

Can you name a college that did just that? I can think of two: University of Chicago and University of San Francisco (Bill Russell).

For 14 yrs. I was on the Town Council of Mansfield, CT the town in which the Univ. of Conn resides. UCONN has essentially destroyed that town. Everyone love the teams but no one talks about the environmental and social destruction they have caused. I moved a couple towns away and I can't even go back to that town anymore. To me, it's a mess.

Sadly, that is one of the prices that one pays for being a "good citizen."

Bureaucracies hate "good citizens" and retaliate in many different ways.

I do a LOT of work with parents of adult children with profound disabilities. The services they get for their children are not mandated, but are at the "whim" so to speak of the bureaucracies. Talk about a bunch of cowed parents - afraid to stand up to huge abuses in "the system" in fear of losing or compromising services. Including reporting abuse.

Here are some of the issues we deal with. (http://www.pad-co.info)

Here are some of the parent comments from a retaliation survey we did:

http://www.ourwebs.info/retaliation.htm

I retired 10 yrs. ago from the State of CT where I directed investigations of abuse of mentally ******** people. Unfortunately what you say is pretty accurate.

I guess I'm not suppose to say re....tarded? Good grief. Can I say people with mental ***********?

We sure have drifted from the original question. Sports are relatively simple. Follow the rules A-Z and if you finish first or with more points than the other people you win and are rewarded with anything from a hand shake to money. The problem comes when we try to place outside restrictions besides following rules from A-Z. The thing is outside of the sport it shouldn’t matter what kind of person the competitor is. Think about rodeo, they have rodeos that are staffed with convicts and that doesn’t change the fact they have to ride a Bull for 8 seconds. :eek:

If a person is evil outside of the sport that needs to be dealt with by a different system, legal or administrative. The thing is we as a society have just decided to tolerate cheating and dishonesty. We expect boxing to be fixed and when it turns out that a fight is fixed we aren’t surprised or outraged. :rolleyes:


Cycling has always pushed the envelope and has always defined ethics differently than most of the sports we see. They used pain killers, amphetamines whatever they could and other riders accepted it and followed suit or not depending on their own values. Was that ethics then and not ethics now? How do we judge it?

"Landis" and "ethics" don't seem to belong in the same paragraph.The linked article is from Fox News, also does not fit with ethics.

The linked article is from Fox News, also does not fit with ethics.

Nobody forces anyone to tune in to one news source over the others. More people watch Fox News than the others. Are we all unethical for picking Fox over the other news channels? Would you assume the authority to tell the majority of us what we can and cannot watch?

Back to the topic. It's looking like the coverup was broad at PennState. May include the head of the school. The students rioted in defense of their trusted teachers and coaches. So that implies that the consensus at that school with students and faculty at Penn State is it's fine to **** little boys in the showers - so long as you keep winning football games.

Seems to me the need to win trumps all sense of ethics, morality, any sense of right or wrong on even the most basic level. If that's how it's done in college sports or bicycle competition, no wonder Wall Street, the big banks and largest corporations as well as government at all levels are corrupt as well. It's The System...

If a person is evil outside of the sport that needs to be dealt with by a different system, legal or administrative. The thing is we as a society have just decided to tolerate cheating and dishonesty. We expect boxing to be fixed and when it turns out that a fight is fixed we aren’t surprised or outraged. :rolleyes:


Cycling has always pushed the envelope and has always defined ethics differently than most of the sports we see. They used pain killers, amphetamines whatever they could and other riders accepted it and followed suit or not depending on their own values. Was that ethics then and not ethics now? How do we judge it?

Cycling is no different, at all. Football, baseball, basketball, track and field - all and more have pushed the envelope and had their own definition of ethics. Money, fame, prestige, ego. The human condition..

Coincidentally, here is something I ran into this week. (http://simplecycle-marc.blogspot.com/2011/11/refreshing-racer.html?m=1) Not all athletes are selfish prima donnas.

Marc

Sounds good to me, I bet the folks running athletics programs would be game.. But seems schools would be getting the short end of the stick. Big time college sports is good for the bottom line. The athletic departments also get to keep their tv contract money, right? Do they have to support men's badminton or can they cut the dead weight?


When the president taps me to become the "education Czar" ( I'm expecting a call soon) I'll will immediately activate my plan for the reorganization of college sports. Effective immediately will be the separation of all college athletic departments from the academic departments. all althetes will be enrolled in the new athletic college and will be barred from taking any academic classes. They can play on their respective teams for four years after which they will receive a Certificate of Participation for the sports they played. No college degree wil be granted. If an athlete chooses to earn a college, he/she will have to reapply to the academic wing of the college. All athletic departments will fund themselves from ticket sales, contributions, and fees They will have new names, such as Penn State Altletic University with no affiliation with the reald Penn state. Athletic departments will rent facilities from the real university unless they contract to actually buy them. In short, no college or university will have any teams. Only the athletic wings associated with them will have teams. If you are a bright athlete and want a real degree, you will have to put your four years in in the academic wing instead of being in the athletic wing or after you finish your team participation. No living on campus, dining in dining halls etc. will be open to the athletes. They are, in effect, attending a completely different school. No academic courses will be open to athletes registered in the athletic school.
Under my system, academics and sports are disassociated from one another, as they should be. I've taught enough athletes in my career to know that academics and sports are not compatible in most cases.

Sounds good to me, I bet the folks running athletics programs would be game.. But seems schools would be getting the short end of the stick. Big time college sports is good for the bottom line. The athletic departments also get to keep their tv contract money, right? Do they have to support men's badminton or can they cut the dead weight?

If colleges were allowed to have a separate subsidiary to run sports, then I submit that these activities should not be allowed a "tax exempt" status. Another bottom line: pay taxes on profits and that leads to pay the athletes what the market will bear. and that leads to another class of pro sports.

They're not students. They shouldn't get student loans, federal guaranteed or not.

I hear that Los Angeles is trying to get a pro football team in L.A. Maybe it could get all the California colleges to create an "All Stars" team just like Little League does and market that as the new franchise.

Are we all unethical for picking Fox over the other news channels?

No....just mis-informed.

Big time college sports is good for the bottom line. The athletic departments also get to keep their tv contract money, right?

Actually it's not. I think there about 6 universities nationwide that show a profit for football.

this article says 22 division 1 athletic programs make a profit. But that's referring to the entire athletic department as a whole including the deadweight like rowing,curling and baseball :p.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest+News/2011/June/Report+shows+widening+financial+gap+in+Division+I

Without the dead weight...

In the FBS, 58 percent of football programs showed revenues that exceeded expenses by about $9 million. Although 56 percent of men’s basketball programs generate revenues over expenses, the net gain is much less than in football – approximately $3.7 million.





Actually it's not. I think there about 6 universities nationwide that show a profit for football.

When the president taps me to become the "education Czar" ( I'm expecting a call soon) I'll will immediately activate my plan for the reorganization of college sports. Effective immediately will be the separation of all college athletic departments from the academic departments. all althetes will be enrolled in the new athletic college and will be barred from taking any academic classes. They can play on their respective teams for four years after which they will receive a Certificate of Participation for the sports they played. No college degree wil be granted. If an athlete chooses to earn a college, he/she will have to reapply to the academic wing of the college. All athletic departments will fund themselves from ticket sales, contributions, and fees They will have new names, such as Penn State Altletic University with no affiliation with the reald Penn state. Athletic departments will rent facilities from the real university unless they contract to actually buy them. In short, no college or university will have any teams. Only the athletic wings associated with them will have teams. If you are a bright athlete and want a real degree, you will have to put your four years in in the academic wing instead of being in the athletic wing or after you finish your team participation. No living on campus, dining in dining halls etc. will be open to the athletes. They are, in effect, attending a completely different school. No academic courses will be open to athletes registered in the athletic school.
Under my system, academics and sports are disassociated from one another, as they should be. I've taught enough athletes in my career to know that academics and sports are not compatible in most cases.

Why not make athletics it's own degree program, we could call it a Bachelor of Athletic Participation, it requires participation in a specific sport, and some academics, and would be like any other Bachelor degree, you have so many hours of participation per semester and must take at least one or two academic course(s), for which you must have a passing grade. This would allow a guy who plays football say, to take a BAP (Football) then go play for the NFL and when he blows out his knees, he can apply to a Post Graduate degree program in something else.