Classic & Vintage - So Sad: The Fate of an Ideale Saddle

As many on C&V know, I have a soft spot for collecting leather saddles. :o Brooks, Wrights, Felt, Middlemore, and Ideale are all in my collection. Many are mounted on bikes which are ridden. A few Brooks are limited edition models. :D Several saddles have been rescued from my town's "Stump Dump," which contains the scrap metal pile.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Hercules/FateofHercules-1.jpg

This week, while poking in the pile, where many treasures have been found in the past, I slid a battered metal cabinet off a--- stem shifter, turkey wing, steel rimmed, equipped Shogun. The bike was still wedged under a few other pieces of scrap, and could not be retrieved, but moving the cabinet, revealed an old leather saddle!

Looking a little closer I spotted the stamping in the rivets, and they read, "Ideale."
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150116.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150113.jpg

But the condition was so sad! The top had developed a scaling like I had never seen. It was reptilian in appearance. :eek:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150114.jpg

To be continued....

Ah, it will bring $50 on ebay. Actually I think there is plain (not an alloy, etc) frame up right now. And I do have a NOS saddle with no frame.

(Edit: Never mind. I think I jumped the gun...)

The skirt was splayed a little. The logo faded with time.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150121.jpg

There were even lichens growing on this poor, long forgotten treasure. :rolleyes:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150118.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150117.jpg

While I didn't spot any tears, rips, or separating rivets from leather, I doubted this saddle could ever be used again. :mad:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150119.jpg

To be continued...

I'm liking where this is going.

NOS Ideale lichens should fetch at least $20. ;)

Can't wait for the outcome of this.

To be continued...

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/6/21/ilikewherethi128585380708473019.jpg

Well, you could always lace it up and ride gingerly. :thumb:

But as I readied my adjustable wrench, prayed the nuts were not too rusted for an easy removal, and peered to the undercarriage of this neglected piece of French craftsmanship, my heart sank and raced at the same time! :twitchy:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150124.jpg

I was about to retrieve what appears to be an Ideale Model 90, with full aluminum rails and canticle!
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150127.jpg

I was now fully heartbroken! :cry: I could not tell if the water droplets falling on this saddle were my tears or rain drops! Here was a true C&V French treasure, that had been abused, not by too much riding, but obviously from improper storage!
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150125.jpg

Of course, without being able to read the logo on the skirt, identification of which Ideale model I now possessed was difficult. Within a few minutes of searching ebay, I found this listing for a NOS Ideale Mod. 90 with a BIN of $450. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/130601358717?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

The stamping in the ebay NOS rail was the same as the one I retrieved from the Stump Dump.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150126.jpg

A search on Velo Base produced an identical frame and rail stamping (Http://www.velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=2FD0B2C2-F333-4F71-92EF-BC974F0D656F&Enum=106&AbsPos=46), with the only difference the number "9 - 0" instead of the "9 - 9" which was in my rescue and the ebay sample.

Now the question: Is there any hope of restoring this French treasure, or should I just lock it away in cold storage? :innocent:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150122.jpg

Sell it in its current state or remove the leather and sell the rails only. Someone in Japan will give you a bunch of money for it.

Can't say, really. How do you people feel about sandpapering the surface to see how deep is the damage? There just might be sound leather somewhere not too deep. Sure, would never be the same as a reasonably well kept Selle Ideale, but they were sturdy things. As far as I can judge, the leather used for them was actually of better quality than that used for Brooks saddles.

If it looks like it can be kinda saved, the next thing to do is to "block" it. like in http://home.earthlink.net/~mike.sherman/brooks.html and there are other links out there for that treatment, just can't find them at the moment.

Man, I was really hoping you would end the thread off with a post showing how you somehow magically revived the leather. Oh well, cool find either way.

Somebody will buy it! My time looking at ebay has taught me that much!

IF you are unsuccessful in restoring the leather, please do not through away the back plate. If you don't want to keep it for yourself, or if you end up selling the rails only, I have a special place for the back plate on my Ideale 90 Speciale Competition (which is missing its back plate).

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab69/gaucho510/1974%20Nishiki%20Competition/IMG_3505.jpg

Sell it in its current state or remove the leather and sell the rails only. Someone in Japan will give you a bunch of money for it.

I'm watching a couple of torn leather alloy railed Ideales on ebay at this moment. It will be interesting to see what they fetch.

This would be one of my "grail" saddles, if it were in better condition. I can't decide yet whether to keep or sell.


Can't say, really. How do you people feel about sandpapering the surface to see how deep is the damage? There just might be sound leather somewhere not too deep. Sure, would never be the same as a reasonably well kept Selle Ideale, but they were sturdy things. As far as I can judge, the leather used for them was actually of better quality than that used for Brooks saddles.

If it looks like it can be kinda saved, the next thing to do is to "block" it. like in http://home.earthlink.net/~mike.sherman/brooks.html and there are other links out there for that treatment, just can't find them at the moment.

I might be tempted to give this a try. At the moment I'd say it will need at least .5mm in most places to smooth it out. The crinkled surface is rather deep in places.


Man, I was really hoping you would end the thread off with a post showing how you somehow magically revived the leather. Oh well, cool find either way.

I've only had the saddle in my possession for 24 hours! Since I left the camera here at the church I could not post about it last evening.


Somebody will buy it! My time looking at ebay has taught me that much!

I've never sold anything on ebay, just bought.


IF you are unsuccessful in restoring the leather, please do not through away the back plate. If you don't want to keep it for yourself, or if you end up selling the rails only, I have a special place for the back plate on my Ideale 90 Speciale Competition (which is missing it's back plate).

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab69/gaucho510/1974%20Nishiki%20Competition/IMG_3505.jpg

Is your Model 90 a steel or aluminum railed model? The back plate on this appears to be aluminum.

Don't worry, this saddle will never be thrown away (a second time).

Is your Model 90 a steel or aluminum railed model?

I believe it has aluminum rails, but I'll have to confirm when I am at home tonight. (By the way, did I mention that I went to mass on Sunday and have fulfilled all the sacraments except Holy Orders and Anointing the Sick? :innocent: )

Soak it in a bucket of water. I'm serious. Soak it.

A decent leather guy (there's one here in Sacramento who does this)
can cut, chamfer, form, stretch, and finish this pretty nicely with
a new piece of leather. The hardest part at this time seems to be
getting decent quality leather.

Just a thought.

227011227010227009227012227008

Because I have one of these, and am completely clueless
as to why it would be a "grail" saddle (it is verrry comfy:D)
perhaps you might trade a couple of why's for my photos?

I really like the bike it's on, in spite of the sad state of its
paint. I can't recall, because it's been at least 25 years
since I put this together, but it's probable I scrounged
the saddle from the same heap of junked bikes in Merced
that provided the frame. At any rate, I've always enjoyed
riding it, and knowing the saddle is the envy of at least
one person makes it all the more sweet.......:o

I believe it has aluminum rails, but I'll have to confirm when I am at home tonight. (By the way, did I mention that I went to mass on Sunday and have fulfilled all the sacraments except Holy Orders and Anointing the Sick? :innocent: )

I'll not comment since I'm a Presbyterian pastor and we only practice two or the seven Roman Catholic sacraments. ;)


Soak it in a bucket of water. I'm serious. Soak it.

What will this do for the cracking and the lichens growing on the surface?


A decent leather guy (there's one here in Sacramento who does this)
can cut, chamfer, form, stretch, and finish this pretty nicely with
a new piece of leather. The hardest part at this time seems to be
getting decent quality leather.

Just a thought.

Because I have one of these, and am completely clueless
as to why it would be a "grail" saddle (it is verrry comfy:D)
perhaps you might trade a couple of why's for my photos?

I really like the bike it's on, in spite of the sad state of its
paint. I can't recall, because it's been at least 25 years
since I put this together, but it's probable I scrounged
the saddle from the same heap of junked bikes in Merced
that provided the frame. At any rate, I've always enjoyed
riding it, and knowing the saddle is the envy of at least
one person makes it all the more sweet.......:o

I might go the route of a recovering. I actually remember seeing on ebay (in the past year+), the leather tops for these frames.

3 alarmer, your saddle, while very nice, :) is not the same. Your Lycett has a traditional steel frame with round rails. This Ideale has aluminum flat rails, frame, and post clamp, with some steel (rusting) hardware bits.

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=227012&d=1321389516

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150127.jpg

These types of Ideale saddles go for significantly more on ebay. Currently there are several with asking prices all over $400. :eek:

Is your Model 90 a steel or aluminum railed model?

Just confirmed that mine has steel rails (and, btw, they are the more common oval-shaped rails, not flat rails like yours).

Once again, I am the envy of no one.:(...............:lol:

Once again, I am the envy of no one.:(...............:lol:

I wouldn't say that! I don't have a Lycett in my saddle collection and your saddle is very nice looking!

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=227009&d=1321389063

I may have the Ideale saddle in my garage - need to check. I had no idea it could fetch $400 and more on ebay. I bought mine new in 1978 and rode it several years. it has the aluminum rails and it's in decent shape - I need to see if I can find it in my junk pile.

I may have the Ideale saddle in my garage - need to check. I had no idea it could fetch $400 and more on ebay. I bought mine new in 1978 and rode it several years. it has the aluminum rails and it's in decent shape - I need to see if I can find it in my junk pile.

I hope it doesn't have lichens growing on it!

Soak it in a bucket of water. I'm serious. Soak it.

+1

I've restored some awful sad looking saddles by soaking in warm water for 10 minutes, then stuff rags between the frame and leather and tie it to reshape it and let it dry. Once dry, you can try sanding the top, and give a couple treatments of proofide.

Lycett... they were taken over by Brooks in the 20's.

One of the most beautiful saddles I have ever owned... this is a L'Avenir (The Future).

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/1954raleighsportslycette.JPG

As many on C&V know, I have a soft spot for collecting leather saddles. :o Brooks, Wrights, Felt, Middlemore, and Ideale are all in my collection. Many are mounted on bikes which are ridden. A few Brooks are limited edition models. :D Several saddles have been rescued from my town's "Stump Dump," which contains the scrap metal pile.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Hercules/FateofHercules-1.jpg

This week, while poking in the pile, where many treasures have been found in the past, I slid a battered metal cabinet off a--- stem shifter, turkey wing, steel rimmed, equipped Shogun. The bike was still wedged under a few other pieces of scrap, and could not be retrieved, but moving the cabinet, revealed an old leather saddle!

Looking a little closer I spotted the stamping in the rivets, and they read, "Ideale."
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150116.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150113.jpg

But the condition was so sad! The top had developed a scaling like I had never seen. It was reptilian in appearance. :eek:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150114.jpg

To be continued....

This is a case of preservation, not restoration.

If it was mine I would clean it gently, seal it to prevent further deterioration, and put it on display... but would never ride it.

I have brought a good number of saddles back from the brink and the only option her would be to have it re-covered as the leather is highly degraded... as soon as you put any load on it there is a great likelihood that the leather will separate from the rivets.

You may also try a PM to forum member blaise_f. Hopefully, he'll chime in. As you may know, he does extraordinary things with leather, and is perhaps the most knowledgeable forum member when it comes to all things old, leather, and bike-related.

Now the question: Is there any hope of restoring this French treasure, or should I just lock it away in cold storage?

Tony Colegrave can make an exact reproduction of the leather. He just completed an Italia saddle for me. It's flawless.

I ride a saddle daily that was in similar condition. Mine had even been chewed on by some rodent at some point. Soaked in water, re-shaped, cleaned, conditioned, laced, conditioned, and waxed and it's food to go.

But if a good one is worth $400...

The leather looks completely shot, I would remove and toss it. You can probably sell the frame for a hundred bucks or more, but if this is a grail for you then definitely keep it. A while back someone was selling NOS Ideale saddle leathers (no metal) on Ebay, they were going really cheap. I would think if you're patient you could snag one somewhere, maybe on Ebay.fr.

Tony Colegrave can make an exact reproduction of the leather. He just completed an Italia saddle for me. It's flawless.

Do you know if he has an email address? I found this mailing address at CR.


Tony Colegrave, Wellhouse, Northiam, Rye, East Sussex. TN31 6HY. UK

I think this evening there was a thread on the CR list from a board member here that had a Brooks saddle redone by Tony.

I think this evening there was a thread on the CR list from a board member here that had a Brooks saddle redone by Tony.

Is it possible to provide a link? Did it have any photos? Thanks!

UPDATE:

I just received a response back from Tony Colegrave in the UK, who jab recommended I get in touch with. What a nice guy! He wrote me a very long response discouraging me from using his service because he did not feel it made sense to spend the money. Part of what he wrote is worth displaying here:

...From a practical point of view, you might consider whether you'd really want to ride one of these saddles anyway - assuming that you haven't ridden one before? Because the alloy girders have virtually no resilience, they offer a very harsh ride and have a tendency to develop fatigue in the alloy cantle plate - the last version of the #90 attempted to mitigate this to some extent with a spring-loaded tension assembly, but your's is a previous version. Most of the earlier alloy-girdered Ideales have steel cantles - those that have survived, that is, although most models were offered with either option, whilst all such #90s, AFAIK, were only available with alloy cantles.

I'm sorry if this all sounds a bit dismissive, but I always try to be honest with prospective customers. If you really, really want me to re-cover your frame, however, I'll be happy to do so.

I really appreciate his honest answer and guidance.

In the mean time, rhm has offered to recover it if I'm willing to be a guinea pig! Or might it be better said, "a test crash dummy?" In either case I'm willing to let Rudi have a go at it. I'm certain he will do a fine job and in the process create a unique saddle with some French-New Jersey hybrid heritage!

Ooo-wee, I do appreciate a man with a little faith! I will post photos when I'm done.

I have an Ideale 90 that I haven't yet used, and after the note from Tony Colgrave, I wonder if I really want to. How do I tell the difference between an alloy and a steel girder?

Also, I see an Ideale 80 for sale for forty bucks -- do I want it?

I have an Ideale 90 that I haven't yet used, and after the note from Tony Colgrave, I wonder if I really want to. How do I tell the difference between an alloy and a steel girder?

Also, I see an Ideale 80 for sale for forty bucks -- do I want it?

Put a magnet on it. If it sticks, it's steel if not it's alloy (or wood, china or plastic!)

I have an Ideale 90 that I haven't yet used, and after the note from Tony Colgrave, I wonder if I really want to. How do I tell the difference between an alloy and a steel girder?

Also, I see an Ideale 80 for sale for forty bucks -- do I want it?


I'd say by looking at them. The alloy rails do look like a flat girder. The steel rails will look like conventional saddle rails. I don't think that anyone did a steel framed saddle with a flat plate girder instead of proper rails.

I have an Ideale 90 that I haven't yet used, and after the note from Tony Colgrave, I wonder if I really want to...

...Also, I see an Ideale 80 for sale for forty bucks -- do I want it?

Ride your saddle to see if you like it. The leather might have enough give for your butt. Personally, I like hard saddles.

40$ is a fine price for an Idéale saddle if it's in good shape - IMO. They are my absolute favourites.

:popcorn

:popcorn

Why?


I'd say by looking at them. The alloy rails do look like a flat girder. The steel rails will look like conventional saddle rails. I don't think that anyone did a steel framed saddle with a flat plate girder instead of proper rails.

Flat aluminum rails.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale%20Model%2090/PB150127.jpg

Round steel rails.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/BrooksWrightsUndersides.jpg

Pretty easy to distinguish between the two.

My NOS Ideale Mod 45.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Brooks%20Saddles/Ideale45Nosebutton.jpg

Ooo-wee, I do appreciate a man with a little faith! I will post photos when I'm done.

I'm not sure I'd refer to PB as a man of little faith... Just little faith in man, I s'pose. :D

In any case, Rudi, I know you're a man of many talents and I believe you'll do a great job on it. Depending on how that works out for PB, it may be time to call in that favor for that saddle wrench you got from me! :P

Thank you for the instructions, gentlemen, I do appreciate it! I will check back with you all shortly on both saddles.

Ooo-wee, I do appreciate a man with a little faith! I will post photos when I'm done.

And I appreciate your creative interests in recovering vintage saddle frames! Rudi and I have struck a deal.

I'm going to carefully remove the leather, clean and polish the frame, replace any steel bits I can find at my local ACE, and send the leather and frame to NJ for a RHM makeover. He promises to stamp the skirt sides with his custom RHM logo! I can't wait! I'll post pictures of my surgery before sending it south to Rudi. Rudi will post pictures of his work! Can we all say C&V collaboration?

I wonder if some of the Amish harness makers in my neck of the woods could duplicate a saddle. I don't have a saddle to try, just thinking of possibilities.

The round steel railed Ideale I have on my Austro-Daimler Vent Noir was original equipment on a 1977 Motobecane Grand Jubile that broke at the dropout. The saddle is still pretty hard. The bike frame broke before the saddle was broken in. It's a beauty!

Well, the frame on my Dump Find Ideale Mod 90 might be worth more than having RHM restore it!

Ebay completed sale for Alloy Ideale frame (http://www.ebay.com/itm/360409214530?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

But temptation aside, Rudi deserves the opportunity to work and hone his saddle making skills. My sad Ideale is heading to NJ and not ebay.

Yikes, well, nothing like a little pressure!