Classic & Vintage - Epic vintage touring bikes (Cannondale defined BOBish?)

I stumble onto epic amazing bikes a lot. More than my fair share actually, probably due to living in cycling obsessed places (Madison, Boulder, etc.). However, it isn't often that I ever stumble across something I can actually enjoy. I ride between a 68cm and a 70cm bike, and while 27" (~68cm) steel bikes are ubiquitous from Raleigh, Schwinn, Panasonic, Fuji, etc. I never ever find anything that actually works for me. Large triangles and the tubing used for flexy vintage lightweights (even the best stuff) does not build good bikes. It just doesn't. Maybe, you'd have to be 6'6" and use 205mm custom cranks to realize this, but I'm just gonna ask that you trust me on this one.

Anyway, my grail finds are vintage Cannondale ST bikes, which were actually built in a 27" (68.5cm) size. Just epic bikes. Think a randonneur or Rivendell. While not the series 3.0 frames, the ST series while "unoptimized" (if that's a word) are still magical. Even with front and rear racks, fenders, large tires, and triple bottle cages they still climb like a mountain goat, sprint like a jack rabbit, and are phenomenally light, and freakin' incredibly strong. The lugged steel Tange touring forks are just perfect for these aluminum frames, and I don't know why they just are.

The '86 & '87 ST800 spec was just mind blowing. As I've posted elsewhere just a Grant wetdream:

Honey Brooks (or Honey Ideal) saddles with copper rivets
Suntour Superbe Pro triple front derailleur
Suntour Superbe Pro rear derailleur w/GT Long cage (only place this exists)
Suntour Supere Pro seatpost ('87 had American Classic)
Suntour Superbe Pro pedals w/clips and Cannondale leather straps to match saddle
Suntour Superbe Pro indexing downtube shifters (transformed by Kelly Take-Offs)
Dia-Compe NGC 982 cantilevers actually in black (rare as hen's teeth)
Nitto Technomic stem (1" quill)
Nitto Randonneur bars
Cinelli honey leather bar tape to match saddle/straps
Stronglight Delta 1" threaded/quill headset
Sansin hubs w/Wolber 58 Super Champions
Sugino AT crankset 28/44/48 half-step
Sugino BB
Light touring tires w/Kevlar belt (this is in '86/'87 keep in mind)
Fenders spec'd and frame fits wide tires
Front and Rear Racks
Triple Water bottle cages

The Anthracite metallic paint is just epically beautiful with the tan/gold C'dale badging. You actually have to see one of these to appreciate 'em as photos don't do them justice. C'Dale actually painted the front and rear racks AND the three water bottle cages to match in Anthracite. Just jaw droppingly hauntingly beautiful.

You have to actually see the bike to appreciate it, just the way the whole comes together just so:

http://66.147.244.179/~vintagm8/year/1987/1987.pdf (http://66.147.244.179/%7Evintagm8/year/1987/1987.pdf)

Keep in mind this is in '86. This bike is spec'd and being manufactured long before Grant becomes "Grant." It is hard for many to believe that the Bridgestone/BOBish/Rivendell descends from a Cannondale vision, but its true. Cannondale's very vision started with bicycle touring. Don't believe everything you read. Perhaps there is a reason that one of the tenants of that cult being "steel is real" lies in the history that their vision first belonged to a bunch of folks building aluminum bikes in Pennsylvania.

Cannondale started in '73 as a company that made gear for Backpacking and "BicyclePacking." Some of the early vintage imagry of the bicycle tourists using their Cannondale Bikepack Touring system of handlebar, saddle, front and rear panniers, look uncomfortably like the imagery that you'll find today on the Rivendell website that crafts Grant's brand. You've got to actually look through these early catalogs and advertising while having the Riv site up to actually appreciate how similar these companies were/are.

Link to 1973 Cannondale Backpacking and BikePacking catalog:

http://66.147.244.179/~vintagm8/year/1973/1973.pdf (http://66.147.244.179/%7Evintagm8/year/1973/1973.pdf)

Keep in mind what Grant espouses with his S24o (sub twenty-four lb/Overnight) philosophy while perusing the early C'dale material. Almost a little creepy considering the character Grant has crafted for himself as going against the grain and as an iconoclast.

Don't believe it? Compare what Grant's vision was for Bridgestone in '85 and '86 to what Cannondale's vistion for cycling was was starting from '73 to when they started producing bicycles in '83. Cannondale bicycles began with the vision of a randonneur bike. Look at the specs of the very first '83 build. Follow the evolution, always an all-purpose fits fenders/racks sport touring do everything bike through '84 and '85. See how absolutely epic the build becomes for the ST800 in '86 & '87:

http://www.vintagecannondale.com/catalog.html

Now compare that to what Grant envisions in '85 and '86. I'm calling it. Rivendell today, all the Grant beliefs/preferences are/were what Cannondale was in '86 with a single exception: Steel frames handcrafted in Japan instead of aluminum handcrafted frames in Pennsylvania. Sadly, the rhetoric of "steel is real" contributed in some manner to the demise of the 'real' Cannondale, through the Joe Montgomery era, the BIKE public company, the reorganization, and into the Dorel property.

However, everything that a Bobish bike "is" and everything that a Rivendell "is" actually was a production Cannondale before it was ever adopted and brought to market by Grant.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1985/index.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1986/index.html

This will turn the stomachs of some of the card carrying members of the BOBish cult, and those with heavy boat anchor "art bikes." However, I'm just sharing with you some historical factual information from which to cut through the Rivendell rhetoric and dogmatic marketing.

It saddens me that these absolutely epic vintage Cannondale ST touring bikes aren't being restored (paint 'em please. They are more worthy of a Joe Bell or CyclArt respray than anything lugged, but do NOT get 'em powder coated. The heat treatment that makes a C'dale frame what it is does not tolerate the high temps of the powder coating process. Additionally the aluminum itself anneals. Ignore all opinions to the contrary.). Yet every day hundreds of cyclists search out for Bridgestone and Rivs, Olmos, Raleighs, and the like on the secondary market. So that's my post and my thread.

Please share your opinions, thoughts (even if they are regurgitated beliefs packaged and re-packaged for you from the Riv and BOBish clan) and clamor, if you feel the need against these bikes, as they are definitely not steel, and therefore stand against all that you believe in.

However, these handcrafted aluminum bicycles take more technical skill to craft than all but a very handful of the very best bicycle builders in the world possess. The skill level required to build a lugged steel bike compared to that required to weld thin wall oversize aluminum can not be reasonably compared. There is a reason that thinwall oversize aluminum frames aren't mass produced. You think they are, but those are THICK walled aluminum monstrocities are comparable to the epic vintage Cannondale and Klein's in the same way that a Schwinn stovepipe bike compares to a vintage Guerciotti/Olmo/Colgano. Compare what Gunnar/Waterford or Trek paid their top steel frame builders to what the average Cannondale framebuilder was paid. One was low rent, and still is. C'dale has always struggle to remain viable because a skilled aluminum welder can always find employment in shipbuilding, defense contracting, etc. Anyone can learn to braze a lugged bike in a weekend. Where is that skill going to get you a high paying job?

So give 'em some respect. Let's find a way that you can retain the love affair that of the Italian grand-master holding a torch in one hand and a cappuccino in the other, and I'm not challenging any of the fundamental beliefs of the BOBish cult (save one). However, let's give credit where its due, and the reality is that vintage Cannondale Touring bikes were relevant and significant for the vision that existed from '73, but also for what they were in production.

An '86 Cannondale ST800 is an epic bike. It is truly a grail find. It has components and kit on it that Grant would sell you today, if only he could, but he can't so he doesn't. Instead he tries to convince you that the Dia-Compe Silver shifter is somehow special in its own right. Trust me, Grant was right the first time when he explained that Japanese (not modern Taiwanese which he mostly sells now) components in the mid-80s were the high water mark for engineering, fit, precision, and finish. The hand polishing and obsession with quality are just phenomenal on stuff from that era.

Go buy a Rivendell, and buy the best Riv Grant can sell you today. Build it up with modern dream components. It won't be half the bike that the C'dale vintage ST800 was. It will be a boat anchor, it will climb like a dog, it will make you hate bikepacking. It won't put the smile on your face that the C'dale does.

There is enough rhetoric out there to the contrary. Just trying to balance the radical steel with some truth and historical balance. I'm just sayin'...

and now you know. You'll never look at Rivendell the same again, and you'll have a smile on your face every time you see a Riv/BOB clone with their shellac'd tape etc. Remind 'em that the "original" Cannondale their bike imitates had Cinelli leather tape and ride away with a obnoxious smirk.


227085

You know there won't be any ST's left for you if you keep hyping them. People will be swarming your CL for them. ;)

I've been lucky enough to fall into three epic vintage Cannondale ST bicycles now. Actually, two bikes and one frame/fork.

I actually do have an '86 ST800. In a blasphemous manner I removed the Superbe Pro pedals and gorgeous Cannondale branded leather straps/clips. I replaced them with Bebop pedals Gasp! Which I use one every bike I own (road/mountain/tandem). I also removed the Brooks as it made my willy go numb. Beatiful saddle. I was astounded for what the pedals and saddle were able to fetch on eBay. Almost paid for the whole bike. Mine was an especially amazing find in that the beatiful Sansin 36h sealed bearing hubs had been replaced with, I kid you not, Phil Wood 40h touring hubs (rear was a ethos correct freewheel hub not cassette hub). I actually bought some Kore cantilevers considering how many hundreds people would pay for the black Dia-Compe NGC 982s. However, I haven't been able to force myself to remove 'em yet. They are too amazing. My bike had seen the Superbe Pro downtube shifters replaced with Suntour Accushift Bar-cons. I sourced some Superbe Pro downtube shifters again, mounted 'em on Kelly-Take offs and swapped the Dia-Compe levers for Superbe Pro levers. Amazingly the caliper intended levers brake better than the cantilever designed levers for the cantis. However, that could be as much to do with the fact that I adjusted the cantis to get 'em perfectly set-up. What else? Well I removed the really nice Sugino 48/44/28 AT crank and BB and replaced it with a Phil Wood BB and Zinn custom 205mm triple crank with TA 48/38 rings and a Middleburn 24 bailout. I'm an idiot (which most of you already deduced from my OP). I can't even claim I didn't understand the ratio advantage the 205mm cranks would give me, as I had spent a lot of time with the Sheldon "gain ratio" calculators that take fully into account crank length. However, I found the TA rings and Middleburn ring for next to nothing and I live in Colorado. However, admittedly I can spin it out pretty quickly, albeit unloaded. The Superbe Pro seatpost is missing. I have a an American Classic post, and even a titanium American Classic post I picked up for nothing. However, I've never swapped over to either. There is some god awful heavy SK Sakae forged aluminum post attached to my Gasp! Selle Italia Prolink Gel Flow with faux carbon rails. What else changed. The Nitto stem was missing on mine and replaced with a Sakae SR "The Tube" stem. I replaced this with a silver Control Tech stem that looks perfect on the bike, actually. I like it better than I'd like the Nitto. I removed the Nitto Randonneur bars, which are just too ridiculously narrow for anyone that would proportionately ride a 68cm bike. I replaced 'em with WTB Mountain Road Drop bars which are incomparably wider in the drops (more proportional for my size) and much stiffer. New SRAM 870 6/7/8 speed chain only because it was at my local Performance, and I didn't want to wait for a Wipperman from Nashbar. I sourced some German made gumwall Continental TopTouring 2000 NOS tires which look incredible on the bike. However, I realized that someone is more a fool than I. Hard to believe, as it is. They rebuilt the wheels using narrow (15mm internal bead width) rims. I blew out $10 worth of new tubes before I realized that the rims were too narrow for wire-bead 27x1 1/4" tires. I couldn't source Mavic Module 4 rims (or even Module 3s, if you have either PM me. I'll take 32h, 36h, 40h, 48h) so I ordered a silver 48h Dyad. I'll rebuild the rear wheel, then as money allows order another for the front. I'll probably build with Wheelsmith DH13 spokes, but the lack of eyelets on the Dyad is leaving me to question whether I should just go with 14g straight.

I should be shot, because before I had 100 miles on the bike I backed it into the garage while moving to the new place. I wasn't even driving into the garage just backing up to unload. Spectacularly beautiful bike in the ridiculously rare 27" size. Nobilette straightened out the Tange lugged steel fork for me. The steel fork took the brunt of it, being the weakest link compared to the strength of the aluminum frame. Rear alignment is no longer dead-on perfect, but I learned you can "cold set" an aluminum frame without damaging it. Who knew?

I picked up a red 27" ST400 frame. All ST frames are identical save paint, and whether they take calipers or cantis. This will never be a touring bike, but will be built up as a true road bike. Some oxidation that has caused paint problems will require a refinish/repaint. Be careful with these thinwall frames. Sandblasting will remove the soft aluminum and you'll literally blast a hole in the tubing in no time flat. You can blast with walnut shells if you're very careful, or media in a bead/vibrating table, but no sandblasting. Came with an XT headset which I just don't get.

Last month I saw an ad for a 27" Cannondale touring bike locally on my Craigslist. Keep in mind that non-steel 68cm and larger frames just do NOT ever appear on the secondary market. I finally was able to scrounge the moolah he was asking for an anguishingly long time later, and I had a real barn find!

It was a white '87 ST400. Everything was absolutely original. It literally couldn't have any real miles on it. All the wear to paint and the components appears to be storage/climate related. It is 24 years old.

Thought I'd share it with the forum:

https://picasaweb.google.com/104088153321844718418/1987CannondaleST400#

Nothing epic. Just good ol' functional stuff.

Suntour alpha-3000 indexing group (derailleurs w/downtube shifters).
Maillard 400 hubs with Sun/Mistral M13 rims (not nearly enough spokes)
Sugino 42/52 170mm crank (strangely this clown bike crank has a Shimano 105 left crank arm)
MKS pedals both missing bearing caps
Suntour 14-30 freewheel
Dia-Compe levers/calipers I'm not impressed with at all. Worst braking bike ever ridden, actually.
Strong seatpost
Vetta white saddle
Tange Tioga headset
Tange touring fork w/rack bosses
The Nitto stem seems to be missing as on the first ride I remembered it being a Sakae but didn't double check.
Cinelli white cork tape (makes me think the stem is the original Nitto).

For now I just through a new set of Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1 1/8 (25-630)that Nashbar was blowing out on the bike. They really make the bike look good. I've noticed that my large bikes always look ridiculous with narrow tires. I like big wider tires anyway. They help with my outlier size, and somehow just look more proportional than tires that are 23s. The ST frame will accommodate wide a tire as I'd ever want even with fenders mounted.

What freakin' bicycle designer thinks that you can use downtube shifters on 68.5cm frame. Are you kidding? Definitely in need of some more Kelly Take-Offs if someone has extra sets lying around. I don't know if its just the pads, or whether these vintage Dia-Compe 500N brakeset is just not comparable something modern.

Thinking I'm okay with refinishing the bike as an ST400, except I'd much prefer the Banana paint scheme (sans "custom '8y Cannondale graphics") to the white/red that I have. However, I might like repainting it in another color scheme to redo it as another year/model.

The Sugino crank (half Shimano) and Sugino BB will come off for either a Da Vinci 200mm triple or a Hi-Sierra/Zinn 200mm triple w/Phil Wood BB. I don't like friction shifting at all, but maybe I just need to "learn"? I do have some beautiful Mavic SSC derailleurs (the "erector" set 801 and 851 SSC ones) that I've never used. I'd need the Mavic/Simplex retrofriction shifters though. I also have an extra set of Mavic SSC black anodized white Mavic branded levers. I could use either pink or green A'me hoods on those. Then again I'm not sure I want this to be a Mavic bike. I don't have anything Campy. I'd love a Campy bike, although I hear finding 6/7/8 speed long cage rear derailleurs for Campy are impossible. I guess 8 speed Campy downtube shifters and triple front changers can be had?

I'm just not in love with the Suntour alpha-3000. However, it shifts flawlessly and there is absolutely no reason whatsover that I should even be thinking about swapping everything out the "group." I'll definitely need stronger hubs with a higher drill and more rim. Maybe some Mavics on Mavic hubs, as I don't want to do 48h on this bike (Velocity Dyad only comes in 48 drill). I do like Phil Woods, but they are a pricey build. I don't want this bike to get out of control on me money wise and there is really nothing wrong/broken with it now. 170mm cranks are a joke and exhausting to spin. Never ridden cranks that short since I was a child.

I absolutely need the Kelly Take-Offs before I get myself killed or hurt my knees to avoid shifting. I'd like much wider bars. Maybe a bit more rise in the stem (Nitto Tecnomic maybe?). I have a 1" Quill Cinelli Grammo titanium stem that I've never used. It is aching to get built onto something. I'd been saving it for acquiring a 70cm bike, though. On this 68.5cm bike that would be a pretty aggressive saddle to bar drop, at least for me. I could use "the Tube" I pulled off the ST800.

So, thoughts? Anyone interested in swapping for some components and have something interesting to trade? What would you do with it? Ride it as is? Repaint it as money allows (pretending its even an ST600 maybe)? Do you like the white/red including original cable housing? I actually happen to have a red Prolink Gel flow saddle which will be on it soon (bought it for my red tandem, so I'll need another of those). The MKS pedals are off as they are missing the aforementioned bearing caps. I need another set of Bebops now for this bike. Plastic platforms on it temporarily (test ride). I'd like another C'dale branded water bottle cage.

Definitely interested in build advice (even if it is "Leave it alone!"). Rides smooth.

What do you think? More pics:

https://picasaweb.google.com/104088153321844718418/1987CannondaleST400#



227076

Ii like that trailer a lot. Anyone has one/seen one in the wild recently?

That 87 Cannondale is really sweet. It's funny how much it looks like a bike you would see on the forums. You are right about the paint and matching accessories, it's understated but very striking. I sure would like to see one in the flesh. Were steel forks common on Cannondales?

I personally don't care who started the style first, they are both nice. It's my assumption that you can probably look back even farther in time and find other bicycles that carried this torch. To me it's like debating who made the first punk rock album...it's not really important, do you like the music or not?

You know there won't be any ST's left for you if you keep hyping them. People will be swarming your CL for them. ;)

I know, I know. But they are such epic bikes! Besides I can't use all the clown bike sizes.

when i see bikes with only an inch or two of seat post showing, i immediately think that the rider is trying to adapt a frame that's too big for his size. that is an awesome bike, but it just looks 'not right' to me-- without knowing the rider's height, standover, etc i'd think he should look in the future at frames several cm's smaller than this one

mtnbke, You might want to PM rccardr or pastorbobnlnh, to name two ST owners for how to modernize/upgrade. I have a 3.0 touring frame I rebuilt earlier this year and it's a slightly different design so I can't provide particulars about the ST.

These bikes do seem to update very well so you have plenty of options. Bar ends are a nice system to move the levers to the handle bars and look appropriate on a touring frame. Tektro dual pivot calipers will improve braking and Harris Cyclery is worth looking at for a wheelset.

Brad

PS While I think it was on a bike that was stolen, I'll see if an old Cannondale water bottle cage is still around.

Why do you want another bottle cage? If the shifters are too low then those bottles are surely well out of reach ;)

Besides take-offs you could also grab some barends for $50 or so or even stem shifters for really cheap. Most people hate stem shifters but I like 'em just fine on bikes that have had them.

2:30 am and 2 epistles on the joys of Cannondales? You seriously need to cut back on the caffeine.

Yeah, if that's your proper saddle height, I'd go for a smaller frame and a longer stem (if needed to get your reach).

Perhaps you have the bars jacked up like that because you'd like less reach, however. If you want higher bars than a smaller frame will get you, get a Nitto Technomic high rise stem.

So you got that one? I emailed after he dropped the price but apparently I was too slow.

I have a 1983 but I think it's a 25". I've been looking for a 27" but I really want one with canti brakes and no luck yet. Did you also get the one in Ft. Collins about 6-12 months ago? Arghh!

Here's mine http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/goldbrick_bucket/3_7_2011008.jpg
It's in pieces now since the BB shell stripped out and I had the shell re-tapped to Italian threads but haven't put it back together again.

It came with the SuperbePro post, long cage RD, original erector-set rear rack, etc. If you're interested in any of that stuff maybe we can make a deal.

I'd really like to test-ride one of your 27" bikes and even try the longer cranks. I'll get in touch once I get my 83 'dale back together.

I think the white bike is just too big.

mtnbke is a big guy. Over 2 meters he claims. I believe it!

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-H-oKccoNsYo/TRaTvJ2WtSI/AAAAAAAABwU/Z0dX2bvbuWQ/s512/DSCI0024.JPG

OK, I'll say it: Use a powder coating expert who has experience with high performance aluminum and it's not an issue. Best I've found is Len McCreary at Figure LLC in Manassas Park, VA. Great guy, a cyclist himself, and his work is perfect. As in perfect. He's done a bunch of frames for me over the past several years. All of them have been built up for customers who have not not a lick of trouble with them. There's another 6 or so coming his way soon for my over-the-winter build activities.

My personal favorite is also the 86-88 ST, but I like the caliper version better than the canti ones. Tektro 556's, R200L levers, Sakae Road Champion 38's, Ritchey Streem saddle, Ultegra hubs laced to Open Pro rims with Michelin Pro3's, 9 speed cassette with Dura-Ace DT shifters, Ultegra or D-A FD/RD, and either a sweet 53/39/30 triple or 50/34 compact. Built a bunch like that, and you can ride 'em across the country without a problem, as several of my customers have done.

The Criterium-style bikes have their place as well, lots of people around here like them. Even with the tighter geometry they make a nice daily rider.

Iowgian, didn't you have"looking for 66cm St800" in your signature ? Did you settle for the 63cm or just give up looking?

To the OP: After all of the smack you have posted in previous threads, I hope you actually ride it

My suggestion would be to get some high spoke count wheels

Were steel forks common on Cannondales?


Yes, they all had steel forks the first few years.



What's "BOB" ?

What's "BOB" ?

Bridgestone Owners Bunch, the Grant Petersen Bible.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/whatthehellisabob.html

I know, I know. But they are such epic bikes! Besides I can't use all the clown bike sizes.

What is "epic" about them and what does that even mean????? Just seems like a XL verison of a garden variety road bike from the mid-late 80's. If you like it, great. You need to ride more and write less.

Although pricey, as you say, I'd save for a get the Phil 48s. They will last a lifetime and you won't break an axle.

Looks like a fine bike for you. I bought one of C'dale's handebar bags from the era before they made bikes. Well thought out design, well made, and lasted many years.

I had an '84 C'dale road bike with Campy SR/NR. Those robust welds were impressive.

What is "epic" about them and what does that even mean????? Just seems like a XL verison of a garden variety road bike from the mid-late 80's. If you like it, great. You need to ride more and write less.
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9665/burnsauce.gif

It's still not quite clear from the length narrative above, are these bikes epic or not epic? :)

It's still not quite clear from the length narrative above, are these bikes epic or not epic? :)

Perhaps it's the narrative that's epic, as the Illiad and Odyssey? I also infer that Grant Petersen secretly designed this particular C'dale? Presents a strong case for that. ;)

OK, I'll say it: Use a powder coating expert who has experience with high performance aluminum and it's not an issue. Best I've found is Len McCreary at Figure LLC in Manassas Park, VA. Great guy, a cyclist himself, and his work is perfect. As in perfect. He's done a bunch of frames for me over the past several years. All of them have been built up for customers who have not not a lick of trouble with them. There's another 6 or so coming his way soon for my over-the-winter build activities.

And I meant to respond earlier to this: Frank the Welder PCs all of his aluminum downhill frames. This occurs after they have been heat treated. His frames are built like tanks. As he says you could hit a concrete wall at 40mph and his frames won't bend.

Iowgian, didn't you have"looking for 66cm St800" in your signature ? Did you settle for the 63cm or just give up looking?

Yes to all three, more or less. I like the 63cm but as you can see the seatpost is up a bit more than I'd like. I suppose I could just get a taller stem but I'd sure like to try a jumbo on for size since I have a 27" steel Schwinn that seems to fit very well.

As for the 'epic' stuff, to me these bikes really shine in the large sizes. I have no idea what a 56cm would be like but in the sizes talked about in this thread I've never had a steel bike come close, and I have some well-regarded touring frames such as a Specialized Expedition, a Miyata 1000 clone (Univega), and others. For stiffness and load-handling ability the over-sized AL tubing in these frames is the ticket for me. Even unloaded, I enjoy the stiffness of the frame since us big guys can generate a lot of torque, even if it is only for a few yards;)

:)

So you got that one? I emailed after he dropped the price but apparently I was too slow.

I have a 1983 but I think it's a 25". I've been looking for a 27" but I really want one with canti brakes and no luck yet. Did you also get the one in Ft. Collins about 6-12 months ago? Arghh!

Here's mine http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/goldbrick_bucket/3_7_2011008.jpg
It's in pieces now since the BB shell stripped out and I had the shell re-tapped to Italian threads but haven't put it back together again.

It came with the SuperbePro post, long cage RD, original erector-set rear rack, etc. If you're interested in any of that stuff maybe we can make a deal.

I'd really like to test-ride one of your 27" bikes and even try the longer cranks. I'll get in touch once I get my 83 'dale back together.


Yes to all three, more or less. I like the 63cm but as you can see the seatpost is up a bit more than I'd like. I suppose I could just get a taller stem but I'd sure like to try a jumbo on for size since I have a 27" steel Schwinn that seems to fit very well.

Seatpost insertion looks about right to me. pretty much ideal to me.

when i see bikes with only an inch or two of seat post showing, i immediately think that the rider is trying to adapt a frame that's too big for his size. that is an awesome bike, but it just looks 'not right' to me-- without knowing the rider's height, standover, etc i'd think he should look in the future at frames several cm's smaller than this one

I couldn't disagree with you more. Bike fit is so completely misunderstood these days. People size bikes to the hoods, which means they are riding 98% of the time of the hoods. I guarantee you that almost every cyclist you know can not spend even half their mileage in their drops, and the reason isn't fitness or age, its a pervasive misunderstanding of bike fit.

The critical thing about bike fit is top tube length, and handlebar height relative to the saddle. You can't really adjust top tube length without completely transforming the handling and feel of a bike by going to different stem lengths. You can always make a bike fit vertically by just showing more post, however, that is a fool's errand. The second critical factor of fit is handlebar height relative to saddle height. Any bicycle that is showing more post is necessarily putting the cyclist in a more aggressive position relative to the bars. Which is why everyone you see on the road is perched on their hoods. They buy aggressive compact geometry bicycles that show a lot of post, so they can get proper extension, but even though the virtual TT length is perfect for them, they can't comfortably reach, let alone ride in the drops. Bicycle fit is so misunderstood that bikes today are missized 3-5cm.

However, don't take my word for it. Some reading for those that are curious about fit. Peter White and Grant at Rivendell would say that a bike showing just a couple centimeters of post is probably fit pretty darn perfectly. After all bicycle fit is about fit actually on the bike, not while standing over it:

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

http://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?cat=23

Also, most of you won't have a frame of reference for what proper fit would look like on one of my bikes anyway. The images of the ST400 are not set up for me, just as it looks as I bought it. However, I'll have to post images of my ST800. I doubt anyone would realize how much using a 205mm crank, and the subsequent drop in post, changes things. However, you still need the same saddle height to bar height for your fitness level/flexibility and familiarity with position. Remind me to post images of what "mine" looks like, properly set up.

I think people ride mostly on the hoods now because that's where the shifters are. Not sure that so many of us "misunderstand" bike fit. Anyway, that's a pretty unique bar position you are using. Can you reach the brakes from the drops?

The funny thing is that the OP is wrong about everything he writes except sizing - and sizing is the only thing he's taking crap for. :lol:

mtnbke is a big guy. Over 2 meters he claims. I believe it!

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-H-oKccoNsYo/TRaTvJ2WtSI/AAAAAAAABwU/Z0dX2bvbuWQ/s512/DSCI0024.JPG

I've lost ten pounds! I'm down to 348. To put that picture in perspective that's a 32 oz (Quart) wide-mouth Mason jar I'm drinking out of. The TV in the background is an old Sony WEGA Trinitron 36" flat screen (paid $50 for it off Craigslist, a TV that retailed for well over a grand. Picture is freakin' fantastic. Still looking for the almost non-existent 40" WEGA that retailed for $2500. Missed one on Craigslist for $150 once.). I wear size 52 Sidi cycling shoes and my cycling inseam is just a hair under 100cm. If I didn't use 205mm or 200mm cranks on the Cannondale 27" ST bikes they would be way too small. Using the proportional length crank allows me to lower my post by 3cm right off the bat.

The pics of the white ST400 don't show a bike set up for me at all. That is just how I rec'd it. Stem is much too short and seatpost is too low for use with the 170mm cranks by about 3-4cm. However, its rideable. When you're big you get used to riding tiny bikes. I didn't get my first bike over 63cm until I was 38.

Since that picture will give people a sense of my outlier size, I'll share an anecdote: My absolute favorite cyclist of all time is Marco Pantani. While he may have been five foot nothin' he was the biggest cyclist there ever was. I always wanted to be him. He didn't depend on tactics, or wait until his rivals were having a bad day. No he had too much style for that. Pantani would attack openly, on the most epic climbs on the hardest stages. He wouldn't try to sneak away and ride off the front he would dare anyone to follow his wheel. When Pantani won he WON.

I could dunk from standing flatfooted, but I always wanted to be little Italian climber who personified heart. His ending is tragic. Part of the reason why I don't like El Dope is his manner of calling out Il Pirate as Elephantino. If you think that picture of me is funny, you should see me in my Pantani "costume." I have these absolutely ridiculously too small Mercatone Uno bibs. They didn't fit when I was playing competitive basketball, and as I've ballooned up in weight since I quit, they have fit less...and less. I actually had to have the lycra custom lengthened in the bibs just to reach my shoulders by like 20cm to give you a sense. The bibs are now stretched so ridiculously thin that the Lycra is almost transparent and probably indecent. However, I absolutely love 'em. Makes me feel like the strongest climber that ever was, daring anyone to follow me up the Hors Categorie.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Bike fit is so completely misunderstood these days. People size bikes to the hoods, which means they are riding 98% of the time of the hoods. I guarantee you that almost every cyclist you know can not spend even half their mileage in their drops, and the reason isn't fitness or age, its a pervasive misunderstanding of bike fit.

The critical thing about bike fit is top tube length, and handlebar height relative to the saddle. You can't really adjust top tube length without completely transforming the handling and feel of a bike by going to different stem lengths. You can always make a bike fit vertically by just showing more post, however, that is a fool's errand. The second critical factor of fit is handlebar height relative to saddle height. Any bicycle that is showing more post is necessarily putting the cyclist in a more aggressive position relative to the bars. Which is why everyone you see on the road is perched on their hoods. They buy aggressive compact geometry bicycles that show a lot of post, so they can get proper extension, but even though the virtual TT length is perfect for them, they can't comfortably reach, let alone ride in the drops. Bicycle fit is so misunderstood that bikes today are missized 3-5cm.

However, don't take my word for it. Some reading for those that are curious about fit. Peter White and Grant at Rivendell would say that a bike showing just a couple centimeters of post is probably fit pretty darn perfectly. After all bicycle fit is about fit actually on the bike, not while standing over it:

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

http://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?cat=23



Yep. But unless you have a REALLY long torso. You'll often have more than 2" seatpost showing on most bikes, even horiz top tube ones.

I like to ride mostly hoods on my roadie, just grab the drops at high speed or low speed into high wind, or just for a break. I do have a 90° stem which helps get the bars up a bit from a 73° stem so drops are quite comfy for long stretches into the wind along the Columbia River.

For a touring bike with barends you definitely want to get it setup for drops primarily so you can shift easily and often, however, so it's either Nitto Technomic or bigger frame.

And yes, if I had a really long torso I'd probably ride a big bike with the seatpost slammed. I also agree that standover is overrated.

I rather like the handling of longer stems personally. 120mm 90° just feels right to me.

I think people ride mostly on the hoods now because that's where the shifters are. Not sure that so many of us "misunderstand" bike fit. Anyway, that's a pretty unique bar position you are using. Can you reach the brakes from the drops?

Again, those images of that bike are as I rec'd it from the previous owner. The stem on there (not the original Nitto, I checked today) is probably a 7cm. I use a 15cm on every bike I own, even on this size frame, because they don't make longer. I can't use a Nitto Technomic, I'd kill myself after I broke that little spindly stem. Mounted one on my tandem once. Scared me to death.

Yes I get that the bars are rotated back, however, to be honest I didn't realize how far back until you guys pointed out it out here. No wonder when I took it around the block on the 'test ride' I thought the Dia-Compe levers and calipers were so god awful! Those bars will go. I'll either get a set of 48cm c-c bars from Zinn or another set of WTB Mountain Road Drop bars (which flare out to 60cm). Much too narrow at the hoods but I like how wide they are in the drops. Did WTB stop making them?

I personally don't like bar-ends or bar-cons. I actually removed the Suntour Accushift bar-cons that Grant used to rave about. I don't like having to remove a hand from the bars so far to shift. I like STIs and ERGOs but have a penchant for C&V groups. My solution is to use Kelly Take-Offs. On my ST800 this allowed me to use Suntour Superbe Pro indexing shifters in a "poor man's STI" setup just inboard of the brake levers. I need some more Kelly Take-Off sets. I'll do the same thing with the Suntour alpha-3000 shifters (or with whatever I replace 'em with if I'm dumb enough to do that). I think Kelly Take-Offs make more sense for C&V bikes than anything else out there. For any bike I love them. I can't use Bar-cons or Bar-ends without hitting the levers hitting my thighs/knees all the time.

http://www.kellybike.com/2nd_xtra_takeoff.html


227153

Oh, if the pic of that white one is not your final setup, then nevermind. WTB still makes those bars, but I don't think they make them in a 26mm clamp anymore, though.

There's Nitto Dirt Drops, only 52cm at the ends. They might be 25.4 clamp.

On One Midge and Salsa Woodchipper are other similar bars.

Happy to know you aren't riding the bike like that. Kind of has that "DUI" look.....

Oh, if the pic of that white one is not your final setup, then nevermind.

No but to be fair, I'll have to post images of my "final setup" on my tandem. It is only a Cannondale 25" so it is way too small. At first glance it looks like a total Phred bike (and there is no bigger Phred than me!), but even with the most vertical rise Salsa stem I've ever seen, there is still a 2" drop from saddle to bars, thought it is difficult to tell because the stem just looks so "wrong." My tandem is a total train wreck of fit. Just wrong in every conceivable way. I still think Cannondale would have sold enough 27"/23" and 27"/21" tandems to bother with it. If they sold as many 27" touring singles as they did (even doing the 27" size for LL Bean), how could you make the argument that you couldn't sell, proportionately, as many in your tandems?

Happy to know you aren't riding the bike like that. Kind of has that "DUI" look.....

Full disclosure. The bars actually were inverted upside down. I did actually quick flip them last night. So I guess I did, actually, "set it up" that way. However, it was dark, and I wasn't really paying attention. The stem and bars are so far in the direction of too small that bar position is not even an issue.

I didn't even bother with this bike today. I took out the ST800 instead. I do want to ride it, though. However, I need at minimum to swap the saddle, stem, source some more Kelly Take-Offs and Bebops. I totally have to have some more red housing (Take-Offs to downtube stops) as well.

I don't get the rant, but I agree that Cannondales from that era were pretty nice. I used to have a 1985 ST500, and I still think it was one of the nicest riding bikes I've ridden. I passed it on to my BIL who loved it, and then he passed it onto a friend of his who loved it....

Now that you mention it.....

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/bik/2705564126.html

64c Cannondale T800 Road/Touring Bike - $199 (North Raleigh)

Date: 2011-11-16, 12:44PM EST
Reply to: sale-94hs2-2705564126@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads? (http://www.craigslist.org/about/help/replying_to_posts)]
64cm (25") Cannondale T800 for sale -- Only $199.00!!!

Great casual commuting/touring/road bike! Touring geometry makes this bike very comfortable (i.e., a shorter top-tube results in a more upright posture, making this bike more comfortable to ride than one with typical road geometry). Also, this bicycle has a brand new Shimano Deore rear derailleur. Highly recommended for casual riders, including commuters, college students, path riders and other recreationists.

Note: Because of it's size, riders would need to be at least 6'1" to ride this bike.

Features:
Handmade in the USA!
27 (3x9) speed
SPD clipless pedals
Shimano Tiagra 9 speed shifters
Shimano Ultegra front derailleur
NEW Shimano Deore rear derailleur

Email with questions and/or inquiries. Thanks for your interest.



Location: North Raleigh
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
http://images.craigslist.org/5Y45O45P43nb3k23l7bbgd475feb7c0041b02.jpghttp://images.craigslist.org/5O15U05P03ma3o93pdbbg9192bf3a37971883.jpghttp://images.craigslist.org/5V45Z65W23n03oa3l9bbg6f7b5df418c11757.jpg


I guarantee you that almost every cyclist you know can not spend even half their mileage in their drops, and the reason isn't fitness or age, its a pervasive misunderstanding of bike fit.

I'm the exception to your guarantee, but for exactly the reasons you state.
I've found my fit on the drops, on a taller bike than any bike shop says I should ride.
I'm 5'6" and ride my 56cm in the drops at least 90% of the time, even on centuries.
For daily rides and workouts, I never come out of the drops unless I have to unclip, which is rare.
Saddle drop to top of the bar is about 2cm in the spring if I'm out of shape, 8cm by autumn.

Properly fit, it's pretty darn comfortable.

wow

definately TLDR

The Kelly Take-Offs are some of the most unflattering adaptations for shifting I have ever seen... but some people will say that about brifters.

Crap. I had a feeler out there on an early '83 that I thought was a 27" but turns out is only a 25". So it is no use to me. A lot of times people get the size wrong and think they have something larger/smaller than what they really have. You can't tell really, until you see it. Some guy in Chicago (I think) is selling it off another forum. Anyway, in case anyone would enjoy looking at more Cannondale ST bikes. This is an original, the very first C'Dale from 1983.

Here is what he says it was built with (or has):

Suntour Superbe Tech rear mech. Great kit, just not the bling and pretense of the Superbe Pro GT.
Suntour Cyclone m-2 front dérailleur
Dia-Compe NGC 500 brakes.
SR stem
Belleri touring bars.
All Blackburn racks. All kirtland bags.
Sr post
Avocet saddle
Tange headset.
Wolber Super Champion 58 rims

Link to pics on my picassa:

https://picasaweb.google.com/104088153321844718418/MicahS8325CannondaleST#

As for the later non-ST Cannondale touring bikes: They don't count. They are Cannondales the way a 914 or a 944 is a Porsche. Plus I don't think they ever made them in a 27" size.

I['m] the exception to your guarantee, but for exactly the reasons you state.
I've found my fit on the drops, on a taller bike than any bike shop says I should ride.
I'm 5'6" and ride my 56cm in the drops at least 90% of the time, even on centuries.
For daily rides and workouts, I never come out of the drops unless I have to unclip, which is rare.
Saddle drop to top of the bar is about 2cm in the spring if I'm out of shape, 8cm by autumn.

Properly fit, it's pretty darn comfortable.

Hey Robbie. Good for you. Thank goodness I'm not the only one out there railing against the insanity of preconceived notions of fit that guarantee that most folks will have neck, back, arm, wrist, and saddle pain and conclude that cycling isn't for them. I always tell people never EVER buy a new bike from a shop that doesn't have a sizing cycle, and that doesn't allow the use of a Look Ergostem as part of the fitting of any new bike purchase. I still say that the LBS does more to hurt the sport of cycling than anything else out there.

It is inconceivable to me that the business model the LBS has is to sell bikes as fast as they can get them out the door, but to upcharge for a fitting session, of which they may "sell" ten to twenty a year. I guarantee you that more than half of all new bikes that get sold will never get ridden, because the new owner concludes that cycling isn't right for them. They'll never figure out on their own that they were sold something that isn't comfortable, that doesn't fit, and that was just "in inventory and built up."

I can't tell you how many times a shop owner (always late in the season) would try to sell me a bike that was so small it was silly. My favorite is when a shop tried to sell me a bike I had already owned, and that I sold as being way too small. He tried to convince me, even after I communicated this, that he could make it fit and, I kid you not, he would give me a special price, for me only.

My father is the same size I am, albeit in great shape. Some shop in Grand Junction, CO sold him a tiny little mountain bike. I think it's a 17" although it might be a 19". We barely, and mostly don't, fit on 22" mountain bikes. He took a bottom of the barrel Giant mountain bike I had picked up trading away some Simpsons DVDs (a bike with a junk fork and I think Acera components). He doesn't like his Specialized with XT and a really nice fork, as it just isn't really rideable. Beware the LBS! Most just barely manage to stay in business, and have a predatory relationship with their cycling customers. I like shops that don't try to sell you bikes on the floor. My favorite is Vecchio's in Boulder who I couldn't recommend more highly. However, I'm currently feuding with 'em. Two strong personalities kind of thing...

My father is the same size I am, albeit in great shape. Some shop in Grand Junction, CO sold him a tiny little mountain bike. I think it's a 17" although it might be a 19". We barely, and mostly don't, fit on 22" mountain bikes. He took a bottom of the barrel Giant mountain bike I had picked up trading away some Simpsons DVDs (a bike with a junk fork and I think Acera components). He doesn't like his Specialized with XT and a really nice fork, as it just isn't really rideable. Beware the LBS! Most just barely manage to stay in business, and have a predatory relationship with their cycling customers. I like shops that don't try to sell you bikes on the floor. My favorite is Vecchio's in Boulder who I couldn't recommend more highly. However, I'm currently feuding with 'em. Two strong personalities kind of thing...

Holy cow! I just can't imagine someone your size on a 17" MTB! That's usually what I ride. I found a 15" with a top tube typical of many 17's and that's the best MTB ever. Actually my 15" is a little short in the TT. It's 56.5 and I think a 58cm would be ideal. I also have an 18" with a 56cm TT and a 19" with a 60cm TT which I have dialed in pretty well for me, but not quite.

MTBs can be ALL over the place sizing wise.

I'm willing to believe that aluminum probably is better for the larger fellas.

As a dead-average-in-height native of the Commonwealth, at about 160 pounds, I've always been curious about Cannondales. I kicked myself for turning down an appropriately sized C'dale with the old cantilevered dropouts and a crowned steel fork. Probably would have cost only about $12, but was looking very Miami Vice and I was anticipating a long-distance move very soon.

Since I recently was "given" a 15% paycut, I'd probably stick with my stable of two ready-to-go lugged steel bikes.

Fantastic bikes, though!

Saw what looked like a white 25" ST400 on local CL for $100. Too big for me, but it was gone in a flash anyway.

Rode a 1978 25" Super Mirage for 20yrs, very strong steel bike, would most likely fit the bill, but a little heavy at 28lbs. Much stiffer than the Grand Jubilee but flexible enough for comfort, unsure if they made it in a 27". Enjoy your rides. Too bad the oversized tubing looks like crap, thin walled or not.

Mntbike,
I see you come here every once in a while and post in just the same polarizing way as the ones you are criticizing. Two wrongs don't make a right. You are no more an authority than they claim to be. And loving one's ride isn't displayed by dumping/pissing on their choice of rides during a parade so to speak.
You've made numerous similar posts in several threads lauding the superiority of the ST800. I don't think it's needed to repeat yourself how much of a fan you are and why.
I looked up the bike's specs in the catalog you listed. It's a special build catagory bike which Cannondale lavished it with every detail to be a flagship tourer. So, it's not an everyday bike. Congrats on acquiring yours and in your size. I think that's the magic elixur.
Enjoy riding it for many miles. But don't stick your tongue out and tell the steel rider you meet how dumb he is to ride steel. That's how you've come across in many posts. You sound like an experienced cyclist and mechanic. And we can all use that here. I like reading about ones experiences in shop environments, events, ride reviews, technical analysis, etc. But I tire to read posts of slamming others with personal insulting opinions that pass for facts, truths because that's how one feels. We have the Road Forum for that.

Note: I missed out on several cheap CL deals when I was still in Boston. I think one was a ST500 in my size, late 80s for $40. Sold real fast.
I now just acquired a 3.0 R500 in 54.5cm. In great condition. Yeah Cannondales aren't loved by some, that's fact. I drank the Cool-Aid back then and now finally have my own to judge for myself. I don't let others tell me what I should ride. I assess their advice, and who that person is. Then decide if it's valuable advice.

[edit]
I'm also a fan of the late great Pantani. Terrible loss to the cycling world when he took his own life.

This has been a fun thread to follow.

mtnbke is so out there with his opinions that he reminds me of a pulpit thumping, in your face, get right with the Lord, evangelist! :lol: Albeit his is the god of aluminum, monster sized, Cannondale frames. ;)

His size puts him in a league with giants, therefore he needs a giant's bike. :eek: This is apparent and understandable. But honestly, how many giants live in the USA? Not many--- so this is why there are so few 27" C-Dales. Back in the day, when Cannondale was small, mtnbke could have probably ordered a custom sized ST frame.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Bike%20Scenes/Frank%20the%20Welder%20Aug%205%2020111/P8050074.jpg

My suggestion is to save your money, and visit an aluminum frame builder like Frank the Welder. Frank can build anything! His specialty might be downhill MTBs, but trust me, if you want any kind of frame made from aluminum, he can cut it, he can form it, he can shape it, he can weld it, he can heat treat it, he can powder coat it, and he can decal it (actually he sends his frames out to heat treat and PC).

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Bike%20Scenes/Frank%20the%20Welder%20Aug%205%2020111/P8050062.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Bike%20Scenes/Frank%20the%20Welder%20Aug%205%2020111/P8050059.jpg

Frank could copy a C-Dale ST frame and upsize it for you--- but he won't--- because he does not care for Cannondale as a company. That is another story and I respect his opinion on why he feels this way. IMO, Frank could take a C-Dale frame, and make one that is so much better in every way, especially for a giant like mtnbke. Someday I hope to commission Frank to build me a frame.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Bike%20Scenes/Frank%20the%20Welder%20Aug%205%2020111/P8050058.jpg

And no, I am not Frank's marketing agent. I just have a great deal of respect for the frames he can artistically engineer from aluminum.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Bike%20Scenes/Frank%20the%20Welder%20Aug%205%2020111/P8050060.jpg

PS: Frank likes to ride vintage steel. Here's a group shot of our bikes before heading out from his shop this past August. :lol:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Bike%20Scenes/Frank%20the%20Welder%20Aug%205%2020111/P8050073.jpg

mtnbke, any thoughts on the set-up of my red Paramount or Frank's yellow Motobecane?

^^^^^^^^
Do you have any idea how many cans of PBR hipsters had to drain to make all that aluminum?!

Over the years I've seen some frame makers add extra tubes at these sizes--not to bring up a sore subject, but Riv now offers that on big frames.