Classic & Vintage - What nationality?

Now for today's insignificant question. In the old days, which is to say when today's C&V bikes weren't C&V at all, most could be identified with a particular nationality. A Peugeot or Gitane was unambiguously a French bike, a Raleigh English, a Fuji Japanese, etc. The place of manufacture was clear, as were the source of most of the parts and the site of the corporate HQ and ownership. Then things got scrambled.

What would one call, say, a Bianchi made in the far east, or a Masi made in the US, or a Peugeot made in Canada? Is it even possible to make such a pronouncement?

Bikes.

I think we lost a little something when this occurred - each bike used to have both the flair and the foibles of the mother country.

good question. i dont think there is really such a thing anymore as autonomy. atleast in the cycling world.

for example, canondale was founded here in the USA (and still has its HQ here), but then bought by a canadian company, and makes its products in taiwan and china. and thats just the frames

You can call the Peugeot's French Canadians? Or the real reason Import tax evaders?? Bianchi's big sell outs, are they even bianchis anymore? Someone could get creative with Masi Im sure

Are we talking just frames, or whole bikes? I have Austrian bikes w/ British tubing, Italian lugs, French saddles, and Italian components, and my first Bianchi had Huret gears and a Bianchi-branded Ideale saddle.

a Raleigh English, etc. The place of manufacture was clear, as were the source of most of the parts and the site of the corporate HQ and ownership.

Yeah, well, my 1983 Raleigh Super Course was made in Japan and sold by a U.S. company (Huffy).

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But seriously, Almost every bike I've ever owned, even as
far back as the 70's, has been specced with components
from a country different from its "country of origin". Back then
it was all the Normandy hubs and crappy French derailleurs.

Schwinn only made frames. It was nice when companies like
Bendix were still making hubs here, but that was a long time ago.

At least for PDG Series Paramounts there is Japanamount (or Pretendamount).

live with the confusion. at least for a while 'til all that 'nationality' becomes just meaningless. bikes are not alone. swiss watches. german cars. china made mercedes. brazillian bimmers. mexican folkswagens. american hyundais. whatever you can name it. this is written by one who born in asia but aged in multiple countries, living in the states.

The name painted on the frame,suggests a building location,
where the parts to be fitted,
all had a meeting place,

though some prestige names were sent out needing the retail shop
to finish the frame threading.and such
then "Building" itself needs to be defined, which part.. ?
before or after the paint?


Though when brand names became a commodity itself, that went down the Loo..

my first Bianchi had Huret gears and a Bianchi-branded Ideale saddle.

i mean this in the nicest way, but that sounds so gross, that's like drinking sprite with milk.......IMHO, i think that might be a against the law or something, sure shimano with italian and italian with italian but french parts do not belong on italian frames...

maybe i'm just a bike racist....

I really think this began just post-war. Prior to that there was difference in style and use; English Time Trials on IGH equiped bikes, French tours, American Track and 6 Day events. Seems things changed a bit during the mid 50's with increased import/export activity. The result seems to be less variation. If you want a bicycle with a national characteristic, it's off to a local framebuilder just like in those good old postwar days. The following was a romanticized view of bicycling history for sure!

To me, where the bike is built defines its nationality. So, there are French Peugeots, and Canadian Peugeots - and they are very different from one another. The same for Raleigh, Bianchi, and who knows how many others.

I have seen this question posed, before, and, for the life of me, I cannot understand the confusion. But that is just me.

At least for PDG Series Paramounts there is Japanamount (or Pretendamount).

I prefer the term "Scwhinnasonic" for the Panasonic built Schwinns, like my 1973 World Voyageur, 1987 Prologue, and 1992 Paramount Series 5.

I think quality is more important than who made it and where.

We must preserve national purity at all costs!

Oh wait, wrong forum.

There was also a time when hobbyists couldn't sit down and talk to fellow hobbyists from around the world whenever they wanted. The world has gotten smaller. Face facts.

Miele ... built in Canada by Italians ..

Scott

Back in the day, Canadian built Peugeots were called "a big improvement".

Once upon a time many countries had their own industries making products mostly for domestic consumption and, to a lesser degree, export. Globalization killed off all but the companies that could successfully dominate in an export market. National industries are now, at best, vestiges of the past.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, or a bad thing, it's just the way it is.

Jim, I remember when I bought my RRA in '81 the salesman told me that it was the last year that model was to be made in England. That was my first hint of things to come. Over time I noticed several items whose brands were once associated with one country actually outsourced from another.

Anyway a friend had a '82 Nishiki that was IDENTICAL to my Raleigh except for some chrome trim so it wasn't too difficult to determine where Raleigh shifted their low end production to. Rashiki?

I don't know who manufactured my daughter's 1990 Japanese badged Bianchi Volpe. This is also where the generational aspect comes in, she doesn't care that an Italian brand has roots in Japan... It's the older folks, primarily, that have to become used to the whole 'world manufacturing' way of business.

I maybe wrong, but I think my sister's Lambert is the last attempt at complete in house bicycle manufacturing.

Brad

My 1974 Hetchins came with an Italian drive train and French wheels.

During the 80's the bike companies didn't really have a choice but to approach the business as a global one. With tumultuous things happening like the fall of the French component industry and the rise of technological and value challenges by the Japanese component makers, Everyone had to open up their minds and think of the possibility of building bikes that are not nationalistic standard bearers of a country's bicycling industry.
I'm sure a lot of French cyclists were cringing when they first encountered Shimano equipped Peugeots and Gitanes and the last straw might have been when Vitus tubing dissapeard from their frames and Italian and Japanese tubing totally took over in their model lines. Maybe that's why there was not that much outcry when Peugeot dissapeared from the market in the 90's.
With just 3 big component companies supplying the bicycling industry these days ("Sramanolo"),I think that its just not as fun as it used to be, when there were so many brands and unique designs to choose from.
JMOs

Chombi

At least for PDG Series Paramounts there is Japanamount (or Pretendamount).

Funny! (Pretendamount...).

i mean this in the nicest way, but that sounds so gross, that's like drinking sprite with milk.......IMHO, i think that might be a against the law or something, sure shimano with italian and italian with italian but french parts do not belong on italian frames...

maybe i'm just a bike racist....

You're just too young, that's all....

To me, where the bike is built defines its nationality. So, there are French Peugeots, and Canadian Peugeots - and they are very different from one another. The same for Raleigh, Bianchi, and who knows how many others.

I have seen this question posed, before, and, for the life of me, I cannot understand the confusion. But that is just me.

But do you mean where the bike was assembled, or where the frame was brazed/welded/glued together? Where it was painted? Decaled? It depends....

Do you know that the Detroit Three (we don't call them 'Big' anymore) make some cars in the USA that are classified as Imports (at their request)?

Miele ... built in Canada by Italians ..

Scott

With Japanese, Taiwanese, and whatever else, parts!

I just try not to put French Components on German Bikes or Vice-Versa....they don't get along well.

I just try not to put French Components on German Bikes or Vice-Versa....they don't get along well.

I thought French components "don't get along well" period?

I thought French components "don't get along well" period?

Well its true that they insist on "Frenchness".
I just assumed that a German bike with French Components would ride very quickly though Eastern France and the components would give up at the first provocation ;)

Well its true that they insist on "Frenchness".
I just assumed that a German bike with French Components would ride very quickly though Eastern France and the components would give up at the first provocation ;)

It's that "Maginot Syndrome" that steered the French compnies to do their own thing, no matter what.......Bright flashes of brilliance with the A9 headset, Retrofriction shifters and SLJ6600 RD, but tempered by idiosycraciss like "Delrinitis", weenie death stems and brakes, proprietary threading and sizes that seem to shout, "to hell with everyone else out there!"(?).

Chombi

I thought French components "don't get along well" period?
Well now, I've got some Frenchness that has been getting along well for 39 years. And some more Frenchness doing well after 29 years. Okay, some Japaneseness has snuck in to help out the older stuff. But still, it isn't complaining.

Back in the day, Canadian built Peugeots were called "a big improvement".

Beat me to it.

The French Canadian Peugeots were and are nicely built bicycles.

Well now, I've got some Frenchness that has been getting along well for 39 years. And some more Frenchness doing well after 29 years. Okay, some Japaneseness has snuck in to help out the older stuff. But still, it isn't complaining.

+1

Except that my Frenchness has been getting on well for 304 years. (All totalled).

I prefer the term "Scwhinnasonic" for the Panasonic built Schwinns, like my 1973 World Voyageur, 1987 Prologue, and 1992 Paramount Series 5.

I like that! Nice bikes, whatever we call them.

All British... except for the pedals as the original ones are in the queue for overhauling and the bottle dynamo was also "Made in England"

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/1950sports10.JPG
1951 Raleigh Sports

There'll always be an England!

There'll always be an England!

But Taiwan's not a British colony?

Unfortunately, what you're talking about is no longer possible, due to global economics and advances in transportation, shipping and communication.

A nice parallel: Ford Motor Company in the days of the Model T and Model A had the River Rouge Plant. Raw materials came in one end, and finished automobiles went out the other. Virtually every part (other than tyres and possibly carburetors) were Ford designed, Ford manufactured, and Ford assembled. Buy a Ford today, even one that can be traced to an American plant, and you're still talking Chinese, Taiwanese, Japanese, etc. sub-assemblies being put together at that American plant.

By the definition of the old farts in this group (national identity in a bicycle), there are no national bicycles anymore - unless you're willing to admit that virtually every mass market bike out there is either Taiwanese or Chinese, no matter what the manufacturer's label. And if you absolutely MUST have a new American, British, et. al. bicycle, be prepared to either own a high end Trek Madone (or equivalent), or have something built in steel or aluminum by Waterford or their competitors.

The 'national' bicycles started to die towards the end of the Bike Boom once the Japanese stepped into the fray. Mainly because they could think differently from the European manufacturers. Where a Peugeot, Gitane, etc. were making bikes for Frenchmen, and exporting part of their production; Panasonic, etc. were making bikes for export - and if a few Japanese bought them too, well, always happy to make an extra sale. Once the Japanese showed they could kick ass on the Europeans in quality, and do it cheaper to boot, kiss the national bicycle manufacturers goodbye.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qd9HtF9U48Y/TaF0oldHiLI/AAAAAAAAAA0/DigMMfV_7jU/s320/John+Lennon.bmp
Nothing to kill or die for,
and no religion too...?

Italian name on the frame, but made about 3-4 miles from where I now live in Carlsbad, CA.
Japanese & Italian-made drivetrain components.
German tires.
French pedals.
British saddle.
Italian bar-tape, handlebars, and stem
French rims, Swiss Spokes, Italian hubs
American-Classic seatpost
Engine made in American Siberia (aka Fargo, ND)
Inner tubes probably made in Taiwan for a German company.
http://www.calamarichris.com/images/090816-masi-back.jpg
http://www.calamarichris.com/images/090816-masi-head2.jpg

I'm a big fan of hybrid-vigor.