Tandem Cycling - Who works harder on a trainer ? Captain or stoker

Who works harder on a trainer? Captain or stoker.
When we ride our tandem on our trainer I (captain) sweat a lot more than the stoker, and feel like I get a good workout. My wife (stoker) fells like she is not getting a very good workout. Not sweating a lot. Average speed 15mph. Average cadence 75. This is what is crazy, she can ride her single bike and she sweats a lot, and gets a good workout. Average speed 10mph, average cadence 70.

How well matched are you cadences? If your spinning out your wife it will be very difficult for here to put "work" into here pedal stroke. You might try alternating intervals, your wife goes hard for 5 min. while you soft pedal, then reverse the roles. You'll probably need to shift to an appropriate gear for each of you.

Get two coded HRMs. Your HRs at a particular level of effort will be different, but you'll figure it out. Higher cadence normally increases HR. Try taking it up to 90.

Try setting up the pedals 90 degrees out of phase. That way, your pedals will be in the dead spot when your wife is in the power stroke, which may allow her to do more work.

I've always wanted to try out of phase. Any feedback on those that have hit the cranks/pedals in corners? I keep hearing that you don't lay a tandem over like you do a single so there isn't as much danger of striking a pedal. I use much longer cranks on our tandem and on my single than most. I don't hit my 205mm cranks on my single, but I'm also very cognizant to not pedal through corners and to have the pedals "up." Out of phase would mean I'd keep mine up (longer cranks than stokers) and hers would always be down? Feedback from those that use out of phase?

As for stoker versus captain effort, that's a dangerous topic. When I lived in Minnesota, before I ever bought my first tandem, I ran into a guy (maybe he's actually on this forum!) that was at a bike shop to ride his tandem home after having it worked on. He didn't have a tandem rack for his car. Smaller town so this made sense (Rochester, MN). At any rate he was a pretty fit cyclist and from the anecdote, she clearly wasn't fit. He was communicating that he didn't realize how little effort she put into to the pedal effort until he had ridden the tandem without her on it and hit the first hill. He flew up it and had a revelation. He didn't understand with all their mileage how she wasn't getting more fit. She was not contributing enough effort to compensate for her even being on the bike.

I share that because I've had two serious long term stokers prior to finally getting married (my wife being stoker number three). The funny thing is none of my stokers have ever contributed more to the effort than their weight brought to the bike on climbs. I've always felt the bike climbed better without them on it. All stokers could help me hammer harder on the flats than I could alone. Now I did ride with one stoker, and only once, who was amazing. It was my father's ex-wife who ran marathons, was an avid Nordic skier, and loved to backpack and peak bag in the Colorado high country. I was astounded how fast we were together on the bike, far faster than I ever was by myself, and faster than she was on her single. We didn't hit any big climbs that one ride, but we should have. One of the steepest climbs in thirty miles was only a 1/4 mile away.

Moral of the story: Love the wife, but find an outdoor athlete stoker on the side. ;)

Were you to ask my wife, who was a world class competitive softball player when younger, and multi-sport varsity starter in high school, she'd say that she contributes more to the common effort than I do. I'd say that I contribute more than she does by far. Might be interesting to get heart rate monitors. Does anyone make a wattage meter than isolates the stoker and captain's individual contributions? I've always wondered if our pedaling styles just completely didn't mesh. I don't use a high cadence, but her mashing sqaures like Jan Ulrich makes me look like Il Dope. I've thought about putting shorter stoker crank arms on to encourage her to spin, but she has disproportionately longer legs even though she's short. However, I love my custom long cranks, so maybe going longer is a better option for her mashing style. My two cents.

I've never considered myself a good captain on the tandem, in that I've never really figured out how to adapt to my stoker's pedaling style. They just sort of have to adapt to mine. It would probably make me a better cyclist (and husband) to learn to be more adaptable.

I've always wanted to try out of phase. Any feedback on those that have hit the cranks/pedals in corners? I keep hearing that you don't lay a tandem over like you do a single so there isn't as much danger of striking a pedal. I use much longer cranks on our tandem and on my single than most. I don't hit my 205mm cranks on my single, but I'm also very cognizant to not pedal through corners and to have the pedals "up." Out of phase would mean I'd keep mine up (longer cranks than stokers) and hers would always be down? Feedback from those that use out of phase?

As for stoker versus captain effort, that's a dangerous topic. When I lived in Minnesota, before I ever bought my first tandem, I ran into a guy (maybe he's actually on this forum!) that was at a bike shop to ride his tandem home after having it worked on. He didn't have a tandem rack for his car. Smaller town so this made sense (Rochester, MN). At any rate he was a pretty fit cyclist and from the anecdote, she clearly wasn't fit. He was communicating that he didn't realize how little effort she put into to the pedal effort until he had ridden the tandem without her on it and hit the first hill. He flew up it and had a revelation. He didn't understand with all their mileage how she wasn't getting more fit. She was not contributing enough effort to compensate for her even being on the bike.

I share that because I've had two serious long term stokers prior to finally getting married (my wife being stoker number three). The funny thing is none of my stokers have ever contributed more to the effort than their weight brought to the bike on climbs. I've always felt the bike climbed better without them on it. All stokers could help me hammer harder on the flats than I could alone. Now I did ride with one stoker, and only once, who was amazing. It was my father's ex-wife who ran marathons, was an avid Nordic skier, and loved to backpack and peak bag in the Colorado high country. I was astounded how fast we were together on the bike, far faster than I ever was by myself, and faster than she was on her single. We didn't hit any big climbs that one ride, but we should have. One of the steepest climbs in thirty miles was only a 1/4 mile away.

Moral of the story: Love the wife, but find an outdoor athlete stoker on the side. ;)

Were you to ask my wife, who was a world class competitive softball player when younger, and multi-sport varsity starter in high school, she'd say that she contributes more to the common effort than I do. I'd say that I contribute more than she does by far. Might be interesting to get heart rate monitors. Does anyone make a wattage meter than isolates the stoker and captain's individual contributions? I've always wondered if our pedaling styles just completely didn't mesh. I don't use a high cadence, but her mashing sqaures like Jan Ulrich makes me look like Il Dope. I've thought about putting shorter stoker crank arms on to encourage her to spin, but she has disproportionately longer legs even though she's short. However, I love my custom long cranks, so maybe going longer is a better option for her mashing style. My two cents.

I've never considered myself a good captain on the tandem, in that I've never really figured out how to adapt to my stoker's pedaling style. They just sort of have to adapt to mine. It would probably make me a better cyclist (and husband) to learn to be more adaptable.Yeah, get HRMs. Watt meter doesn't tell the story, which is all about the communal effort: "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs." And yes, I'm guessing that the great majority of tandems represented here would be faster with just the captain aboard. Which is neither here nor there, for heaven's sake. If we only wanted to go faster, we could all get divorces and spend all our spare time training on our singles. That would work so well.

Back in reality, we are so happy that our beloved stokers will put up with us, ride with us, and make the whole riding experience so much more enjoyable. It is said that riding lovers are not found but made. That's because of a necessary ordering of priorities. We're having a gas getting faster on the tandem.

My stoker very willingly adapted to my pedaling style because of its obvious perfection. :lol: Actually, I taught her to pedal my style back when we were riding singles, so when we started tandeming it was easy to synch up.

In general each person will put as much energy as they feel comfortable doing into the bike so it's surprising to me that one person would feel that they aren't able to get a good workout. I agree with Rick above that one possibility is that the preferred cadences aren't well matched.

If the stoker likes to spin fast at moderate pedal pressure to get a workout and the captain has more of a 'mashing' style and chooses high gears then the stoker might still use her preferred moderate pressure but now at a lower cadence and therefore less effort. Conversely, a captain who is spinning faster than the stoker feels comfortable with could also prevent the stoker from getting a good workout.

One way of compensating for different preferred cadences is to adjust the crank lengths. If the captain likes to mash at a low cadence, then using shorter cranks in front will naturally lead to a higher preferred cadence. One of my bikes has 165mm cranks and another has 175mm - I notice that I tend to choose lower gears and a higher cadence when on the bike with the 165s.

It is a fact that ON AVERAGE women have less lung capacity than a man of the same weight. No matter how hard you train it is impossible to overcome your body's limitations. All endurance sports elite men's times are faster than elite women's times. Why should it be different for us?

I second the different crank lengths idea. I noticed in pictures of us on a tandem that at the bottom of the pedal stroke our knees are about the same angle but coming over the top my stoker's knee ange is much more acute. No wonder she felt like she is behind at the top of the stroke. Shorter stoker cranks helps a lot. Another approach is to go out of phase. Try just one or two teeth out of phase with the captain behind the stoker. Then the stoker can feel the resistance from the pedal at the top of the stroke before you are in the power stroke.

Wayne

Does anyone make a wattage meter than isolates the stoker and captain's individual contributions?


Assuming you're on a traditional tandem, your current option is unfortunately to put a power meter up front (to measure your power) and a power meter in the hub (to measure combined power), then do the mental math to net out the stoker power. "Soon", pedal power meters will give you the separation. We ride a daVinci, so it was "easy" to do separate power meters for captain and stoker.

[QUOTE=Carbonfiberboy;

Back in reality, we are so happy that our beloved stokers will put up with us, ride with us, and make the whole riding experience so much more enjoyable. It is said that riding lovers are not found but made. That's because of a necessary ordering of priorities. We're having a gas getting faster on the tandem.
A big PLUS 1 on this thought from both of us
R&J

Yeah, get HRMs. Watt meter doesn't tell the story

Um, yes they do. They predict changes in HR before they happen, and can provide a far more detailed report of the effort being issued. 20W can be the difference between wiped out for five minutes or still grinding to the top.

One way of compensating for different preferred cadences is to adjust the crank lengths. If the captain likes to mash at a low cadence, then using shorter cranks in front will naturally lead to a higher preferred cadence. One of my bikes has 165mm cranks and another has 175mm - I notice that I tend to choose lower gears and a higher cadence when on the bike with the 165s.
Consider getting the "right" crank length for each rider, instead of arbitrary lengths and arbitrary adjustments to balance the cadence.

Inner leg length x .21 (or .216)

Measured my wife, and determined she should be riding 144-148mm cranks, so we went with 150mm. She didn't seem ecstatic about them until we had to go back to 165s for three weeks; then it was a race to get back to the 150s. Now her max cadence is up by 10rpm.

Um, yes they do. They predict changes in HR before they happen, and can provide a far more detailed report of the effort being issued. 20W can be the difference between wiped out for five minutes or still grinding to the top.While you are technically correct, the issue is not who is putting out more watts, but rather are each contributing equally, or if not equally, an agreed-upon level of contribution to the communal effort. Meaning a Rating of Perceived Exertion (RPE). A pair of HRMs will tell that tale accurately and continuously over the years, without regard to each person's FTP, variation in training state, or amount of training. And yes, just like 20 watts, 3 beats can be the difference whether or not a team can maintain effort on a long climb or series of climbs. Plus they're an order of magnitude cheaper, though I guess that's neither here nor there.

But sure, if you want to race, a set of the new pedal-based PMs would be the ticket, though they'd cost more than my whole bike.

Thank you for all the help. That is why I like this forum so much, everybody wants to help.

It is said that riding lovers are not found but made.

Like all generalizations, this is false.

Found my stoker on a club ride many years ago. We've raced singles together, toured on singles together, and when the mood strikes us - we ride the tandem together.

While you are technically correct, the issue is not who is putting out more watts, but rather are each contributing equally, or if not equally, an agreed-upon level of contribution to the communal effort. Meaning a Rating of Perceived Exertion (RPE). A pair of HRMs will tell that tale accurately and continuously over the years, without regard to each person's FTP, variation in training state, or amount of training. And yes, just like 20 watts, 3 beats can be the difference whether or not a team can maintain effort on a long climb or series of climbs. Plus they're an order of magnitude cheaper, though I guess that's neither here nor there.

But sure, if you want to race, a set of the new pedal-based PMs would be the ticket, though they'd cost more than my whole bike.

I would love dual power meters but it is not going to happen for a while. Of course the cost is a problem but also neither of us like Look pedals and we would not be trilled about changing to speedplay either. Maybe a crank based system is in the cards someday but for now we just use HRMs. Then again I often like to ride with no gadgets. It is a nice change of pace to just go hard or easy and not look at speed, cadence or heart rate.

Wayne

Who works harder on a trainer? Captain or stoker.
When we ride our tandem on our trainer I (captain) sweat a lot more than the stoker, and feel like I get a good workout. My wife (stoker) fells like she is not getting a very good workout. Not sweating a lot. Average speed 15mph. Average cadence 75. This is what is crazy, she can ride her single bike and she sweats a lot, and gets a good workout. Average speed 10mph, average cadence 70.

Can you tell us more about yourselves? Biking experience, type of riding you do, weights, type of tandem etc.

Your cadence seems to be on the low side. We typically have a cadence of around 90 and are both happy at that speed. We have ridden our Calfee tandem on the trainer a few times now and are both able to get a good workout. We have a Computrainer that provides a bit more interesting ride than a typical trainer so it is more fun to ride.

One thing you can do is ride the trainer separately. That way you can individually determine how hard to work to get a good workout.

Wayne (in Illinois)

We are casual riders. When we go for a ride it is about 25-30 miles. One to two times a week. Our tandem is a Trek T1000. Our trainer is a cycleops, fluid.

It sounds like she simply isn't putting the effort in. You could try doing some intervals. That is the only kind of workout I do (on the rare occasion) when I get on a trainer. 10min warmup then 1min hard and 1min easy repeated 8 or 10 times then a 10min warm down. These are not much fun but at least you won't get bored.

I've always wanted to try out of phase. Any feedback on those that have hit the cranks/pedals in corners? I keep hearing that you don't lay a tandem over like you do a single so there isn't as much danger of striking a pedal. I use much longer cranks on our tandem and on my single than most. I don't hit my 205mm cranks on my single, but I'm also very cognizant to not pedal through corners and to have the pedals "up." Out of phase would mean I'd keep mine up (longer cranks than stokers) and hers would always be down? Feedback from those that use out of phase?

We've found that the trick is to have the captain's turning pedal more at like a 1 or 2 o'clock position, that way neither person's pedal is at a 6 o'clock position. So far, no issues cornering while OOP. Also, regarding your power and effort statements/questions, when we started pedaling OOP we realized I hadn't been putting in as much effort as the stoker (I'm a female captain, my stoker's male). Now, I THOUGHT I'd been putting in as much effort, but when we got home and I went upstairs I realized my hamstrings and thighs were much sorer than they'd been in a long time. It wasn't because I was being lazy, but because our pedals were always in the same place on the power stroke, which basically meant he was providing more power because, well, he's just stronger than I am. Pedaling OOP seems to "fix" that a lot, and I think we both feel like we're getting a much more even workout, so to speak. The thing about tandem cycling is that rarely are both partners at the same athletic/fitness level, and just like ANY relationship you both have strengths and weaknesses. The trick is to embrace those and allow them to compliment each other (for example, I'm a better sprinter, but he's better powering up hills, so we use that to our advantage), figure out what works best for both of you on the bike, and enjoy the ride.

It is a fact that ON AVERAGE women have less lung capacity than a man of the same weight. No matter how hard you train it is impossible to overcome your body's limitations. All endurance sports elite men's times are faster than elite women's times. Why should it be different for us?

I second the different crank lengths idea. I noticed in pictures of us on a tandem that at the bottom of the pedal stroke our knees are about the same angle but coming over the top my stoker's knee ange is much more acute. No wonder she felt like she is behind at the top of the stroke. Shorter stoker cranks helps a lot. Another approach is to go out of phase. Try just one or two teeth out of phase with the captain behind the stoker. Then the stoker can feel the resistance from the pedal at the top of the stroke before you are in the power stroke.

I think changing crank length is a terrible idea. While you are never going to find a perfect marriage with Jan Ulrich as the captain and Lance Armstrong as the stoker, giving each a non-optimal crank length in order to "force" cadence change is just inane.

Remember, on a tandem the cadence doesn't have to be uniform throughout the 360 degree pedal stroke. I don't know why so many, including even myself, are averse to taking their cranks out of phase. However, if using cranks 90 degrees out of phase the cadence would alternate at fast/slow and mash/spin. One would spin faster than they would like the other slower, however, as they are out of phase the advantage is they can pedal with their ideal "pedal force" without compromise.

Sheldon Brown talked about pedaling out of phase from anywhere from a couple of teeth different, to out of phase out of balance, and just out of phase. Why don't more of us experiment when it's such an easy adjustment with an eccentric?

Back when I was actually in great shape, I used to race mountain bikes on the NORBA circuit. I was never competitive. However, what stood out to me was that their were four categories then for Men: Pro, Expert, Sport, and Beginner. Women had the same. The funny thing was that the Men's Sport and Women's Pro did the same mileage. Men's Expert and Pro each usually did additional mileage or laps (usually 10 and 20 more miles respectively). What was really strange was that the winner of the Men's Sport category usually had an almost identical time to the winner of the Women's Pro category (back then usually Julie Furtado). I mean within :30 seconds for the same distance. I always thought that was interesting. It isn't really fair to compare, though. I'll give the winner of the Women's Pro category a hell of a lot more respect than the winner of the Men's sport. He wasn't even seriously training, she was the best in the world!

We had an interesting "Who works harder?" experience yesterday. We did 36 miles in extremely windy conditions, most of the time a strong slightly heading crosswind. By the end of the ride I was more tired than usual. My sweetie/stoker had worked too but not as hard as I. (She didn't think she'd worked hard but she promptly fell asleep in the car on the way home.) I've been thinking about how this worked out.

The thing about a crosswind is this. I'd guess that the captain provides little or no drafting effect for the stoker. Now, wind drag varies with speed (nominally proportional to speed squared but that's quite imprecise in practice and with variable winds), so one's bike speed is the equilibrium of drag and power capacity. This is different from climbing where the "drag" itself is determined by the slope of the hill and is thus independent of speed per se.

On a solo bike I could outpace her in those windy conditions. So if I'm pushing near to my capacity and she's pushing near to hers we will maintain a speed faster than she could do alone. In other words, I'm dragging her along faster than she could do by herself. That could happen while climbing too, but it would be more significant in the wind.

Does this jive with everyone's experience?

(It was a fun ride!)