Advocacy & Safety - Heedless, Entitled-seeming Hipster Cyclists in San Francisco - new phenomenon?

Hey all...

I'm sure some variant of this has been talked to death, but it's relatively new for me.

I've lived in San Francisco for about 13 years, and cycled for many more than that. I can't say I'm the "perfect cycling citizen", but I'm pretty aware of my surroundings, at least slow down at stopsigns, stop at lights, give pedestrians right-of-way, am courteous, acknowledge other people on the road, etc.

For the last couple of years, however, I've noticed a HUGE growth in the number of cyclists who seem heedless of their surroundings, TAKE right-of-way whether it's theirs or not, zig-zag through intersections without stopping even if there are peds or cars there already, using the street as a kind of personal expression space as they careen downhill in totally unpredictable trajectories, and basically act like they are the only people on the road.

Most of those I see doing this I'd classify in the "hipster" or "fakenger" style - fixies/single-speeds, dickies, tattoos, etc. Not that there's anything wrong with that style, but it has seem to come with this kind of entitled attitude. I see this every day on my way to work and back (Haight/Ashbury neighborhood to downtown San Francisco). I also see it a lot on Valencia Street, which is, of course, Hipster Central.

I can't believe the lack of concern for their surroundings most of these guys (and they are mostly guys, not too many women being this rude) show.

Can anyone tell me what's changed in the last few years (besides the large growth in number of bikes on the streets, and prominence of bike advocacy) to make this happen? I mean, it's like the Keystone Cops On Bikes out there lately. As a cyclist, a pedestrian, and a driver, it's really starting to annoy me.

- Tim

I think you nailed your answer in your title and your post. It's the Sense of Entitlement Generation.

No, whining and moaning about other people you don't like isn't a new phenomenon at all.

No, whining and moaning about other people you don't like isn't a new phenomenon at all.

Eh, it's not merely "people I don't like". It's people who're putting other people in danger. Sure, I don't like it, but I don't like it for a very solid reason. It's not like I just don't like their clothes or something.

Where're you coming from with your comment? You seem to have your own agenda there.

- Tim

I see people fitting that description all the time in NYC and sometimes in Boston. While I don't adopt that style of riding myself I'm actually pretty impressed at how seamlessly many of them "thread the needle". Is there any real evidence they are involved in accidents or cause accidents at any greater rate than other cyclists?

Many traffic laws are designed for the flow of automotive traffic and have little to do with the flow and momentum of bicycle traffic. Sometimes that kind of rogue cycling may appear "selfish" but may have more to do with survival by instinct as opposed to following convention. I'm not advocating it but just suggesting there may be less of a need for a knee jerk blanket reaction that labels a group of individuals as "Heedless, Entitled-seeming Hipster Cyclists". It seems a little too easy a condemnation to make over an issue that is less black and white and actually has an underlying complexity.

I see people fitting that description all the time in NYC and sometimes in Boston. While I don't adopt that style of riding myself I'm actually pretty impressed at how seamlessly many of them "thread the needle". Is there any real evidence they are involved in accidents or cause accidents at any greater rate than other cyclists?

This I cannot say - I have searched for some stats on riding style/attitude vs. accident rate, but I haven't found a credible, serious study on the matter. I'm definitely impressed by the skill of some of these folks, but I can tell that it often scares the pants off of many peds, drivers, and even other cyclists. Rather than just tell those that it scares to suck it up, I tend to believe that cyclists need to be a bit more predictable in their riding movements. But that's just me. :-)


Many traffic laws are designed for the flow of automotive traffic and have little to do with the flow and momentum of bicycle traffic. Sometimes that kind of rogue cycling may appear "selfish" but may have more to do with survival by instinct as opposed to following convention. I'm not advocating it but just suggesting there may be less of a need for a knee jerk blanket reaction that labels a group of individuals as "Heedless, Entitled-seeming Hipster Cyclists". It seems a little too easy a condemnation to make over an issue that is less black and white and actually has an underlying complexity.

Of course - I'd like to see cities planned out much better such that bike, ped and car traffic were much more clearly separated, with separate and logical laws that applied to each transit type; given that we can't redesign cities from the ground up (not anytime soon anyway), and that as of this moment cars, peds and cycles have to share the road to a great extent, being more predictable (whatever way you travel) would be better for everyone. That said, even now that San Francisco has added more bike-friendly accoutrements (green-painted bike lanes, bicycle "islands", more bike routes, etc.), I find that that hasn't improved the friendliness or civic-mindedness of many of the bad-mannered cyclists I encounter - if anything, they are more rude to fellow cyclists, almost shouldering them aside in the bike lanes as they make their squirrelly way down the street to get to where they're going as fast as possible.

Yes, I admit the "heedless, entitled-seeming hipster cyclist" title may've come out too judgmental-sounding, but it was more to get attention to the discussion than to paint those people in a single color. Indeed, I know the cycling community is filled with many different sorts of people. It's the behavior I'm mentioning that I'm most peeved with (eg. car starts to move through intersection or ped starts to walk across crosswalk, and cyclist who was a half-block away a few seconds ago zooms through the intersection mere feet from the ped or car without even acknowledging them - that's bad manners whatever angle you come at it from). I can only say that I have noticed it most in people who appear to match the demographic and personal style that I mentioned, though I can't say why that is.

- Tim

Yeah, I see stuff like that. I blow it off. I'm not the world's policeman.

Check out the traffic in places like Ho Chi Minh City. Bikes, scooters, cars, trucks all ride/drive like that.

Check out the traffic in places like Ho Chi Minh City. Bikes, scooters, cars, trucks all ride/drive like that.

Heh, yes I can imagine - Bangkok and all the cities in India I visited were like that. Everyone was driving like mad.

- Tim

I saw one like that in the local park a few weeks ago zig zagging around on an old ghetto cruiser with his tires nearly flat. I was not wanting to look at him when I passed for fear that I would see his eyes rolling and his tongue hanging out. Just chalked it up to a form of madness that seems to be getting more common, like inflation or the price of gas going up, or maybe a new street drug.

"Riding with panache" isn't new or exclusive to San Francisco. I think we just notice it more, because there are so many more bikes on the road than there were ten years ago. There are a lot more cyclists and some of them are idiots.

No, whining and moaning about other people you don't like isn't a new phenomenon at all.

I hope you've got a good excuse.

Just keep them on your side of the Golden Gate please.

I don't know, i think the OP may be seeing things more from the windshield than from the streets?


When I ride in San Francisco, I have been increasingly impressed at the level of compliance with traffic signals of the riders I am with. Whenever I ride Market Street into Downtown or up to the Castro, i find most of my fellow cyclists stopping at the lights. Folsom into town in the mornings is the epitome of orderly cycling IMO.

I'm also of the opinion that once a 'critical mass' of riders coalesces on the street, an high degree of 'obey the rules' behavior spontaneously erupts in the cyclists. Queuing at stoplights is indicative of order in the bicycling population.

I don't think its that bad, and its getting better not worse. maybe the law breakers stand out more than the vast majority of riders, blending in with the rest of the traffic?


"Riding with panache" isn't new or exclusive to San Francisco.

I ALWAYS ride with panache. i also predominately obey the rules of the road.

Sounds like transplanted New Yorker's.

Check out the traffic in places like Ho Chi Minh City. Bikes, scooters, cars, trucks all ride/drive like that.

Don't forget Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, Phnom Penn, and Taiwan R.O.C.

Traffic in those cities/locales', is horrendous. It is like a giant game of dodge ball.

Eh, it's not merely "people I don't like". It's people who're putting other people in danger...

- Tim
Let's see, over 30,000 people killed by lawless motorists per year in the U.S. One's probability of being injured by scofflaw motorists over the course of an average lifetime are just about 50:50. JNow, just how many people have been killed by cyclists in the U.S. over the past century? A few less than 30,000, I would guess. Yet you are upset over scofflaw cyclists and are trying to pass it off as a concern over safety. Your claim seems insincere, to say the least.

I'llbedamned, and you would think that the cannabis cards would thin some of that riff-raff out.

I don't know, i think the OP may be seeing things more from the windshield than from the streets?

Not at all - I *do* drive, but I ride my bike a lot more than I drive... I'd say I walk or ride my bike or take public transport 80% of the time if not more. I avoid driving my car as much as possible. When I *do* drive, I'm more terrified of a cyclist weaving suddenly in front of me than I ever was in the past - might just be there's more bikes, but people seem to be riding less safely.

I also get annoyed just as much when cycling - on the way home tonight, for example, I came to a 4-way stop, and there were cars and peds already there. I stopped, allowed for the whole "yield to the right" rule to take place as I crossed one corner, then the next, then pushed on. Meanwhile, a guy who was behind me slipped around me and went diagonally through the intersection despite the fact that cars and peds were about to enter it. This all on a dark, rainy, slippery evening.

I had a momentary desire to catch up to him and push him off his neon-colored single-speed. :-/


When I ride in San Francisco, I have been increasingly impressed at the level of compliance with traffic signals of the riders I am with. Whenever I ride Market Street into Downtown or up to the Castro, i find most of my fellow cyclists stopping at the lights. Folsom into town in the mornings is the epitome of orderly cycling IMO.

I'm also of the opinion that once a 'critical mass' of riders coalesces on the street, an high degree of 'obey the rules' behavior spontaneously erupts in the cyclists. Queuing at stoplights is indicative of order in the bicycling population.

I don't think its that bad, and its getting better not worse. maybe the law breakers stand out more than the vast majority of riders, blending in with the rest of the traffic?

I ALWAYS ride with panache. i also predominately obey the rules of the road.

Hmm, not sure what you mean *specifically* by "panache" - style, grace, skill?

In any case, as some have said, perhaps it's just because there so many more cyclists on the road than there were that I notice the idiots, but the proportion of idiots really does seem to've increased in all the years I've been riding in the city somehow.

Ah well.

- Tim

Let's see, over 30,000 people killed by lawless motorists per year in the U.S. One's probability of being injured by scofflaw motorists over the course of an average lifetime are just about 50:50. JNow, just how many people have been killed by cyclists in the U.S. over the past century? A few less than 30,000, I would guess. Yet you are upset over scofflaw cyclists and are trying to pass it off as a concern over safety. Your claim seems insincere, to say the least.

Just because I am bringing up the issue of bad manners and lack of concern for safety, etc. among cyclists doesn't mean I am not aware of the danger motorists present, or see lack of a need to address problems in that regard.

However, that is another subject, and has nothing to do with the subject I started this thread with.

What has my sincerity got to do with it? I'm certainly sincere in my statement and concerns.

- Tim

. . . .
Can anyone tell me what's changed in the last few years (besides the large growth in number of bikes on the streets, and prominence of bike advocacy) to make this happen? I mean, it's like the Keystone Cops On Bikes out there lately. As a cyclist, a pedestrian, and a driver, it's really starting to annoy me.

- Tim

Maybe you are just a few years older.

Maybe you are just a few years older.

Heh - possibly. :-)

I try to guard against the "Get off my lawn! Damn kids!" syndrome, though.

- Tim

Just because I am bringing up the issue of bad manners and lack of concern for safety, etc. among cyclists doesn't mean I am not aware of the danger motorists present, or see lack of a need to address problems in that regard.

However, that is another subject, and has nothing to do with the subject I started this thread with...

I don't think it's another subject. I actually think the two are related.

Bicyclists are people on bikes. Drivers are people in cars. Pedestrians are people walking. Hmmm, anyone else see something in common between all of those groups. Why is it that when we see people do stupid things on bikes it's because they're "Heedless, Entitled, Seeming Hipster Cyclists", when it's people in cars doing something stupid they're "cagers". Come to NYC or any other busy city in the world and you want to see people do stupid things- watch the pedestrians!

Or go to a supermarket and watch how people drive their shopping carts.

Your observation has little to do with the means of conveyance. It has more to do with your perspective. It's all relative to the observer.

Just because I am bringing up the issue of bad manners and lack of concern for safety, etc. among cyclists doesn't mean I am not aware of the danger motorists present, or see lack of a need to address problems in that regard.

However, that is another subject, and has nothing to do with the subject I started this thread with.

What has my sincerity got to do with it? I'm certainly sincere in my statement and concerns.

- Tim
There is just no empirical evidence that they are endangering anyone, therefore your contention that safety is at issue rings rather hollow. You clearly consider yourself a cyclist. They cycle differently than you do. Does that threaten your view of yourself as a cyclist? Do you really think the box is that small?

Sure, it would be nice if everyone played nice and by the rules. However, as long as no one is being physically hurt or threatened with harm, what is the big deal? Just for the record, I'm one of those strange cyclists who actually obeys all the traffic laws. I even come to complete stops at stop signs in the middle of nowhere. I still couldn't care less if other cyclists choose to do so as long as they don't harm anyone.

Heck, after over four decades of using a bike as either my primary or only means of transportation I'm thrilled beyond belief to have so many youngsters eschewing the car and using bikes. I'd rather cheer them on and then laugh at them in a decade or two when they have their knickers in a twist over what the next generation of youngsters is doing.

Empirical data: In SF last summer a cyclist hit ran a red light, hit a pedestrian who died a month later.. It was not clear that the cyclist was a pure hipster, but the bike appeared to be a fixie. It was very interesting in all of the day of video from the new stations you could see bike after biker running the same light. Mix of commuters and hipsters as best I can tell.

Are Hipsters/Fixies inherently bad? No. My son 14, rides a fixie that we built...and knows how to ride in traffic, following rules. His fixie also has a brake.

the problem is not a specirfic class/subclass of cyclists, but behavior and responsibility and a feeling of entitlement

Cyclist are not entitled to run red lights. It is irresponsible
Cylists are not entitled to ride withoutout brakes.....no matter what your "mad skills" are you do not have the control or the ability to handle many situations...resulting in more dangerous maneuvers.

My observation of actual riders, is that as a current visible genre, many in the hipster/fixie crowd seem to feel entitled to do what they want....and be irresponsible. I see far more red light running, salmoning and just plan dumb behavior form this group (could be the teenage mind in many cases) Also as hipster/fixie is cool...there are many people riding who do not have the "mad skills" that reduce risk for all, but still ride as if they do.

so be as hip and cool and ride the most rad fixie you can..... cool..... but don't take that a entitlement, follow traffic rules and if you are prepared to go down to avoid an accident...get a brake.

I don't think it's another subject. I actually think the two are related.

Bicyclists are people on bikes. Drivers are people in cars. Pedestrians are people walking. Hmmm, anyone else see something in common between all of those groups. Why is it that when we see people do stupid things on bikes it's because they're "Heedless, Entitled, Seeming Hipster Cyclists", when it's people in cars doing something stupid they're "cagers". Come to NYC or any other busy city in the world and you want to see people do stupid things- watch the pedestrians!

Or go to a supermarket and watch how people drive their shopping carts.

Your observation has little to do with the means of conveyance. It has more to do with your perspective. It's all relative to the observer.

All very fine and dandy except for the fact that the fixie crowd is mostly = hipsters, who mostly = young = not exactly risk aversive. So, IMO there's a fair chance that the fixiecists, however agile and skilled they are, WILL be worse cyclists than most others.

All very fine and dandy except for the fact that the fixie crowd is mostly = hipsters, who mostly = young = not exactly risk aversive. So, IMO there's a fair chance that the fixiecists, however agile and skilled they are, WILL be worse cyclists than most others.

and my point is that if you put that very same demographic behind the wheel of a car you will have similar behavior in a vehicle exponentially more powerful and dangerous.

BTW, draw what conclusions you wish from this but statistically one of the groups of cyclists with the highest fatality and accident rate both on motorcycles and bicycles is Males age 45-55.

I think the difference here is that the exuberance of youthful energy on a bicycle, unlike a car, doesn't mean the difference between riding at 35 mph or 100 mph but may be between 17 mph and 25 mph at best. Combine that with better eyesight, hearing and reflexes of the younger rider and they may still ride more safely than a more conservative older rider.

generation WHY on a bike - fixie

generation WHY in a drivers seat - texter.

or even worse - playing video games, watching south park AND texting while driving.

and my point is that if you put that very same demographic behind the wheel of a car you will have similar behavior in a vehicle exponentially more powerful and dangerous.

BTW, draw what conclusions you wish from this but statistically one of the groups of cyclists with the highest fatality and accident rate both on motorcycles and bicycles is Males age 45-55.

I think the difference here is that the exuberance of youthful energy on a bicycle, unlike a car, doesn't mean the difference between riding at 35 mph or 100 mph but may be between 17 mph and 25 mph at best. Combine that with better eyesight, hearing and reflexes of the younger rider and they may still ride more safely than a more conservative older rider.

Though I can not at the moment find the relevant numbers, I'm almost certain that they're rather different round here. The one group that has the most traffic accidents of any kind (not counting pedestrians, I think) is young males.

generation WHY on a bike - fixie

generation WHY in a drivers seat - texter.

or even worse - playing video games, watching south park AND texting while driving.
And that's why I would rather not make them feel unwelcome when they choose to ride a bike; the alternative is so much worse.

And that's why I would rather not make them feel unwelcome when they choose to ride a bike; the alternative is so much worse.


Yep. :thumb:

The riding may have more to do with a sort of "parkour" spirit than sense of entitlement. Practiced by skaters and BMX. per following song lyrics--"Skateaway" by Dire Straits:

"I seen a girl on a one way corridor Stealing down a wrong way street For all the world like an urban toreador She had wheels on, on her feet
Well, the cars do the usual dances Same old cruise and the curbside crawl But the rollergirl, she's taking chances They just love to see her, take them all
No fear, alone at night She's sailing through the crowd In her ears the phones are tight And the music's playing loud
Hallelujah, here she comes, Queen Rollerball In an Enchante, what can I say, care at all
You know she used to have to wait around She used to be the lonely one But now that she can skate around town She's the only, only one
No fear, alone at night She's sailing through the crowd In her ears the phones are tight And the music's playing loud
She gets rock 'n' roll and rock 'n' roll station And a rock 'n' roll dream She's making movies on location She don't know what it means
And the music make her wanna be the story And the story was whatever was the song, what it was Rollergirl don't worry DJ play the movies all night long
She tortures taxi drivers just for fun She like to read their lips Says, "Toro, toro taxi see ya tomorrow, my son" I swear, she let a big truck graze her hip
Ah, she got her own world in the city, yeah You can't intrude on her, no, no, no She got her own world in the city The city's been so rude to her
No fears, alone at night Sailing through the crowd In her ears the phones so tight And the music's playing loud
She gets rock 'n' roll and rock 'n' roll station And a rock 'n' roll dream She's making movies on location She don't know what it means
But the music make her wanna be the story And the story was whatever was the song, what it was Rollergirl don't worry DJ play the movies all night long, all night long
Slippin' and a-slidin' Yeah, life's a rollerball Slippin' and a-slidin' Skateaway, that's all Skateaway
Shala, shalay, hey, hey, skateaway Now shala, shalay, hey, hey She's singing shala, shalay, hey, hey, skateaway
Shala, shalay, hey, hey"

So it is OK for cyclists to run around as they please but cars are evil. Got it.

So it is OK for cyclists to run around as they please but cars are evil. Got it.

Well, yes, sort of, though I wouldn't put it that way. Rather, like: cars kill an awfull lot of people. Bicycles don't. Makes for a bit more tolerance vis-a-vis cyclists than cars, don't you think?

Let's see, over 30,000 people killed by lawless motorists per year in the U.S. One's probability of being injured by scofflaw motorists over the course of an average lifetime are just about 50:50. JNow, just how many people have been killed by cyclists in the U.S. over the past century? A few less than 30,000, I would guess. Yet you are upset over scofflaw cyclists and are trying to pass it off as a concern over safety. Your claim seems insincere, to say the least.

This is a strawman if ever there was one. By the same argument perhaps we should quit worrying about trivial stuff like electrical safety checks in the home, on the basis you're more likely to be run over by an errant motorist than electrocute yourself doing DIY electrics.

Well, yes, sort of, though I wouldn't put it that way. Rather, like: cars kill an awfull lot of people. Bicycles don't. Makes for a bit more tolerance vis-a-vis cyclists than cars, don't you think?

Why rationalize hypocrisy?

So it is OK for cyclists to run around as they please but cars are evil. Got it.

By Jove, I think he's got it! :D

This is a strawman if ever there was one. By the same argument perhaps we should quit worrying about trivial stuff like electrical safety checks in the home, on the basis you're more likely to be run over by an errant motorist than electrocute yourself doing DIY electrics.

Completely and utterly this.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time. The tu quoque arguments presented are silly.

Completely and utterly this.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time. The tu quoque arguments presented are silly.

For those not blessed (cursed?) with instruction in Latin or formal logical, "tu quogue" is the "you too" fallacy in which we try to discredit a critique on the grounds it also applies to the person making it.

Speeding is unsafe.
Since you speed you are wrong.

Riding the wrong way is unsafe.
You do things even more dangerous so you are wrong.

Is speeding really unsafe...

Is speeding really unsafe...

Ok if this is serious I will bite

Speeding is not going faster than a set limit, but going too fast for the current conditions, such that you do not have time to react to problems

Yes speeding is unsafe

Do we care? depends on the situation

person trying rocket powered bike speed record on bonneville salt flats? unsafe=yes, do I care....no because the only person impacted is the rider and those people who would miss the rider. This assumes the rider has got buyin from those that care

Fixie rider, no brakes, riding too fast to stop, who blows a red light. Unsafe=yes Do I care = yes because people who have not agreeed to to the risk can and are affected, like people legally in the cross walk or drivers/cyclist legally proceding on the green

Fixie rider, no brakes, riding fast, but can stop at red light. Unsafe=NO Do I care = No because person wasn't speeding, becuase they could control the situation as dictated (ie stop at the light) ..... the only problem is many riders don't have the skill to match speed with stopping capabililyt.

Speeding is not going faster than a set limit, but going too fast for the current conditions

Ok, the "real' speeding. Thought you were gonna talk posted limit.

Unfortunately the bad riding styles of a few paint all riders as unpredictable self-centered jerks to the average person who doesn't know a fixied from a mountain bike. I used to live in SF, went back recently and was blown away by the very rude and overall brainless nature of several fakenger/hipsters who seemed to expect the seas to part for them. Not isolated to hipsters, but young people in general seem to have a stranglehold on attitude.

No, whining and moaning about other people you don't like isn't a new phenomenon at all.

If you are defending the idiots you are in the wrong thread (and yes, I think they actually are mentally deficient). Most intelligent people find this type of riding nauseating, just like throwing out the words whining and moaning. The OP was just trying to bring to light a concern for safety and respect.

Declining economy forcing the younger generation to look for alternative ways of transportation.
Ten years ago, the same age group would've all had cars and been driving around recklessly. It's like that, but now they're on bikes which is in someways more dangerous to themselves / pedesetrians but not really to other motorists.

This entitlement thing is not new - it's a common stage experienced by Western cultures (not Asians, weirdly) after high school graduation. They've just turned legal for a lot of stuff.

This brings a bad image to SS / FG riders, though. I get surprised looks from motorists when I stop at my stop sign and wave the car that has the right-of-way through. It's become this bad where motorists expect cyclists to be ******s.

Declining economy forcing the younger generation to look for alternative ways of transportation.
Ten years ago, the same age group would've all had cars and been driving around recklessly. It's like that, but now


they're on bikes which is in someways more dangerous to themselves / pedesetrians but not really to other motorists.


However, they are an extreme danger to motorists, because motorists have to dodge their wreckless antics, by placing the innocent in harms way. - Slim :)


This entitlement thing is not new - it's a common stage experienced by Western cultures (not Asians, weirdly) after high school graduation. They've just turned legal for a lot of stuff.

This brings a bad image to SS / FG riders, though. I get surprised looks from motorists when I stop at my stop sign and wave the car that has the right-of-way through. It's become this bad where motorists expect cyclists to be ******s.

+1 ^ THIS ^

That's why insurance for youthful drivers is so high. For some reason the western culture produces a bunch of rolling idiots, until we've all reached an age where we can get a decent grip onto reality. Until then, it's full speed ahead! Look at me! I'm so cool! Watch me accomplish the most awesome feat, ever! ..And all the rest of that BS most of us experience!

- Slim :)

BTW - This behavior has nothing to do with IQ. It seems to transcend all levels of intelligence!

This brings a bad image to SS / FG riders, though. I get surprised looks from motorists when I stop at my stop sign and wave the car that has the right-of-way through. It's become this bad where motorists expect cyclists to be ******s.

It's not just SS riders, I ride a mountain bike and a cross bike and frequently see pedestrians waiting at a crossing see their light go green (and know my light went red) and look at me as if to figure I'm a cyclist so I won't be stopping. It's amazing, although in a very disappointing way, how many people are visibly surprised when I do stop at the red light so they can cross.

Well, yes, sort of, though I wouldn't put it that way. Rather, like: cars kill an awfull lot of people. Bicycles don't. Makes for a bit more tolerance vis-a-vis cyclists than cars, don't you think?

I think that this is a valid point, and I do feel like there is a big "grar kids these days" element to this thread. But it has to be acknowledged that cyclists do kill and injure people. There was a death in Toronto this year from a cyclist who was bombing down the sidewalk and hit an old man. Another was going the wrong way on a one-way street and seriously injured a pedestrian.

Though both of those cyclists were doing things that were colossally stupid and dangerous. Most of the bad cycling I see endangers only the cyclist, which I have less of a problem with. I am not too bothered by another cyclist who decides to run a red light, but I'm walking on the sidewalk and a adult cyclist expects me to step out of their way? that gets my goat, so to speak.

What if the cyclist, who would be at fault, runs a red light and gets killed by a car. The cyclist, who broke the law and did stupid things, would still be changing the life of the driver, no matter how attentive they had been. Quit being so selfish, just follow the rules.

Yes, I agree. And it's entirely the cyclist's fault. But I also think that sometimes a person can run a red light safely...but that is another debate.

At least we can all agree that stupid behaviour comes in all forms and it's a shame we see it on our shared roads.