Classic & Vintage - Upgrading Cassettes (or freewheels?)

Here is my dilemma: I have a beautiful fuji tiara 12 speed, probably a intermediate racing bike when it came out back in '88. Been riding a lot, and want to upgrade the gearing. Don't want to spend a ton of money so I was thinking about going with a Microshift White 10 spd group. What do I have to do to make this happen? Thanks for any info you might have

btw, this is my ride, I have the cherryweb: http://classicfuji.com/Tiara_1988_Page.htm

You'll need a lot.

Biggest thing is probably New wheels to accept a 10 speed cassette.
You'll more than likely need to spread the frame to fit the modern rear hub.
You might want to go with a modern 10 speed crank as well. That will require a new Bottom Bracket.
you'll need some kind of cable stops on your downtube.

Its gonna be hard not to spend a ton of money

You can probably get by with the shifters, new rear wheel, 10s cassette, and chain. The front derailleur cage may be too wide for a 10 speed setup, but some people get good success with this. The width between the chainrings of your old crank may be too wide.

I'd recommend finding 8 or 9 speed stuff as you can find that stuff for relatively cheap. 10 speed stuff is expensive, less durable, and probably a diminished return.

Or... find a cheap modern donor bike.

The exact opposite I wanted to hear haha, thanks though. Could I get away with just an 8 speed? http://www.microshift.biz/pviewitem2.asp?sn=676&area=45&cat=168

Sure you could but It wouldn't change anything as far as what you'd need to do. You'll still need the shifters, rear wheel, rear derailleur, cassette and chain as Puget Pounder suggested at a bare minimum.

Its a cool bike....if it fits you and you love it, it might not be a bad upgrade. Honestly though if you really do love that bike and want to upgrade it you might want to go with something nicer than Microshift.

Well, if you're riding a lot and the bicycle is a 1988 model, it probably won't be too long before you'll have to replace the freewheel/cassette, chain and chainrings because they are too worn and won't mesh properly with new parts. That's the most economical time for this sort of upgrade. If possible, I'd wait until then.

11 and 10 cogs in back are sillyness.

Any cassette hub can run more modern "goes to 11" cassettes. Just lose one cog and use Sheldon's 8 of 9 on 7, or 9 of 10 on 7 if you feel you have to have modern 10 speed:

http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#up7

However, I'd just go 8 speed (stronger chain, cogs, rings) or 9 speed. It is funny how many people extol the virtues of riding fixed while also getting rid of their "old" 8 and 9 speed set-up to "upgrade" to 10 speed. The two perspectives don't reconcile.

Ok, here's what I think: Going to replace the freewheel with an 8spd (Was surprised they still make these new), then go with the microshift 8 speed group. I know microshift is not that great but I think it's just as good as tiagra or sora, which is what I would put on it anyway. I'll get the rear fork (what is that called?) spaced to a 130mm or 132.5mm. What do you guys think?

Also, what tool will I need to take off the Freewheel? It's a 6spd MF z012 Shimano. There are a lot of freewheel remover tools and I'm not quite sure which one to use.

However, I'd just go 8 speed (stronger chain, cogs, rings) or 9 speed. It is funny how many people extol the virtues of riding fixed while also getting rid of their "old" 8 and 9 speed set-up to "upgrade" to 10 speed. The two perspectives don't reconcile.

Give it a rest.

Ok, here's what I think: Going to replace the freewheel with an 8spd (Was surprised they still make these new), then go with the microshift 8 speed group. I know microshift is not that great but I think it's just as good as tiagra or sora, which is what I would put on it anyway. I'll get the rear fork (what is that called?) spaced to a 130mm or 132.5mm. What do you guys think?

8 speed freewheel is not a good idea. The extra length on the freewheel puts stress on the axle, which may end up breaking. That's why you will see a majority of 8 speed setups with modern cassetes rather than freewheels. The cheapest thing to do if you MUST have STI is using your 8 speed shifters with a 7 speed freewheel. Spacing is close enough that you won't notice a difference.

aw, I was so excited about the 8 speed free wheel. What axles could support this? I'm probably asking a very stupid question, but what are the chances of this happening?

How challenging would it be to get a cassette on that wheel?

Pounder is right for the simplest and cheapest upgrade.

You either want speeds, or you want range. Range you can get with a 5-sp rear, that's 10 total.

7-sp STI's are out there, tend to be very expensive, unless you run across a set of Sora's.
8-sp STI's are more numerous, work with 7-sp freewheels, and generally cheaper.

Upgrade your freewheel to 7-sp, get 8-sp STI's. You may need an 8-sp RD, maybe not.
Or find a donor bike for $200-$300 and swap everything over, including wheels.

If I wanted to use these pieces of crap: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Microshift-8-speed-Road-Bike-Shifter-Lever-L-R-/270789903962?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f0c56065a#ht_2715wt_832 ...... What would I have to do to have them work with the 7 spd freewheel? Very helpful, thanks again guys

Refresco, I can see that you're new here. May I respectfully suggest that you take some time to do some research? There are so many very knowledgeable people on these forums, and I'm quite sure that they've already answered all of your questions many times by now. Use the Search function. Read, read, and read some more. Then, when you're sure that your questions are, indeed, new, then post them.

Try reading through this thread for starters: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/361558-retro-roadies-old-frames-with-STI-s-or-Ergos?highlight=retro+roadies

Good luck.

If I wanted to use these pieces of crap: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Microshift-8-speed-Road-Bike-Shifter-Lever-L-R-/270789903962?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f0c56065a#ht_2715wt_832 ...... What would I have to do to have them work with the 7 spd freewheel? Very helpful, thanks again guys

really just knowing how to install them and tuning your brakes/derailleurs. You should be able to use the derailleur you have on there, but if shifting is a little off, you may want something a bit newer.

My apologies, yes I am quite new at the sight, and no, I do not have the time to read through 200 pages of a forum that probably doesn't have the correct information in it. Of course, you having a whopping 28 more posts than myself, I must respect your opinion.

Thanks pudget, I'll have to look all this over. I do like the old components but the DT are not very fun. Thanks a lot guys!

Chill out, he made a respectful suggestion. No need for a sarky response there.

Look at Kelly Take-Offs or Paul Thumbies to get your DT shifters up near the brakes. Bar end shifters get a lot of love on here.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e163/BeerBiker/cruzbike/silvio/IMG_1140.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e163/BeerBiker/cruzbike/silvio/IMG_1141.jpg

http://www.kellybike.com/images/kelly_takeoff_photo.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_jnHFbX4iOxc/TJecPVp-YdI/AAAAAAAADa4/KOB6xzHrlv4/s400/TZ2%2020%20Sept%2010%20005.jpg

Best of luck with your conversion.

Ok, here's what I think: Going to replace the freewheel with an 8spd (Was surprised they still make these new), then go with the microshift 8 speed group. I know microshift is not that great but I think it's just as good as tiagra or sora, which is what I would put on it anyway. I'll get the rear fork (what is that called?) spaced to a 130mm or 132.5mm. What do you guys think?

I think you should use Kelly Take-offs and use Ultegra downtube 8 speed indexing shifters on them. You can then shift from the hoods and have full 8 speed Ultegra for less than $150 for shifters/Take-Offs/Derailleurs. Eight speed is stronger and lasts longer (again...thicker cogs/rings and wider chain).

However, it is your bike. Build what you like. I'd rather have good stuff than new mediocre stuff, plus I like older bits anway. The Modolo Morphos also comes to mind.

About a year ago I converted an older Santana tandem from 7 speed to 8 speed. I had a wheel that used an 8'speed freewheel, so that was not an issue. I was able to spread the rear triangle out some and the new wheel fit fine. I have ridden 8 speed free wheels on a tandem for thousands of miles so unless you are 300+ pounds I would not worry about the axle/wheel. I used a new Ultegra rear dérailleur and 8 speed bar end shifters, it worked great. I have since sold the bike and upgraded to a new tandem with 10 speeds that work great and are not silly.

Wayne

My apologies, yes I am quite new at the sight, and no, I do not have the time to read through 200 pages of a forum that probably doesn't have the correct information in it. Of course, you having a whopping 28 more posts than myself, I must respect your opinion.

Don't take offense. ctmullins was spot on with his advice and was courteous in delivering it.

You have the time to work on the bike and attempt upgrades, but not the time to read about how to do so? That doesn't jibe does it?

Here's how you do it. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=upgrade+index+site%3Abikeforums.net)

That wasn't information on how to do it, that was lot's of (ok, they were cool) pictures of old bikes with STI's. ( not your link, the one about the retro roadies)

Oh, you're looking for a step-by-step tutorial on how to uprade your specific bike to your specific requirements for free?

I thought you might like to learn how to fish and feed yourself. My mistake.

whoa, when did I say that? Your link is fine, the one about the retro roadies was the link that didn't help. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The question is pretty specific, and I even asked some people at the LBS, and they couldn't offer a definitive answer.

I see. It's best to use the quote feature to avoid confusion.

I'll work on that.

I think your question has evolved and I'm not quite sure where you stand at the moment.

You cannot install an 8sp freehweel on your current rear wheel because it is wider than the axle will allow. With your current rear wheel 7sp is the max. 8, 9 and 10 speed freewheels are really intended for specific applications such as recumbents and very high quality touring/tandem freehweel hubs with overbuilt axles (i.e. Phil Wood).

Yeah I kind of let the forum die, and asked my more specific question on another forum. I meant to close it, but I don't really know how. If you're interested, my plan is to buy a 10 speed wheel, cassette, chain and microshift white group and install them. I can get the frame spaced to accommodate it. I would like to save money on the wheel by using the old rim, and that is kind of my question now, but I am fine with just purchasing a new wheel.

Yeah I kind of let the forum die, and asked my more specific question on another forum. I meant to close it, but I don't really know how. If you're interested, my plan is to buy a 10 speed wheel, cassette, chain and microshift white group and install them. I can get the frame spaced to accommodate it. I would like to save money on the wheel by using the old rim, and that is kind of my question now, but I am fine with just purchasing a new wheel.

It will be more economical to buy a pre-built wheel, even moreso to buy a used 130mm Shimano compatible freehub wheel. You could also shop online for used wheels or even complete groups to get you where you want to be.

Good luck and happy riding.

You cannot install an 8sp freehweel on your current rear wheel because it is wider than the axle will allow.

Well, he can but it's not simply slap-it-on-and-go. He would need to add 4-5mm of axle spacers to the FW side to space it out to about 130mm and also redish the wheel. I've done this on one of my wheels and put on an 8-speed freewheel. I have not yet broken the axle of that hub. But I have broken the axle on a different 6-speed FW hub before (after 17 years and >80,000 miles of riding). Breaking a quick release axle is usually not catastrophic. I broke the axle (or more accurately I noticed it was broken) at the turn-around point of a 200km brevet and I rode the remaining 100km with the broken axle since the QR skewer was holding everything together.

^ You're assuming there is enough axle to do so. I was trying not to confuse the issue with more information than Refresco really needed. I'll stand by my answer. For the record, I'm not implying that axles breaking on freewheel hubs is an issue to worry about.

^ You're assuming there is enough axle to do so.

There is. A Shimano QR axle is 11mm longer than the OLD so adding 4-5mm of spacers leaves 3-3.5mm still extending past the lock nuts on each side which is plenty to seat the axle in the frame. The axle breakage anecdote wasn't a response to your post. I should have started a new paragraph :)

To OP: The FW tool needs to be a Shimano compatible one. The Park tool is FR-1 http://www.parktool.com/product/freewheel-remover-fr-1 but there are other manufacturers that make them. Make sure it's for Shimano freewheels and not Shimano cassette lock-rings. The splines look similar but they are not the same.

+ what the Colonel said: take your time. Slowly collect ... say ... an Ultegra 6400 series transmission — shifters, crankset, BB, FD, RD, and rear cassette free-hub. Now you gotta build a wheel — and find a frame maker to cold-set and realign yer stays for 130 mm. if you have 120 mm — fogedaboudit! Enjoy vintage!!!

The late Sheldon Brown left us with an article about DIY cold-setting, but you still need an LBS to align the drop-outs. And you have to survey the frame with string and an accurate measuring device to see if the ass is going to follow the head after prying about with 2x4's.

It gonna take some coin — but if you collect the parts over a year to 18 months it won't hurt so much. And you may cash in on the best deals going.

I'd say do something like this ... or just leave as is and overhaul it as it wears out with same.

This is not off the top of my head. I've gone through this quandary a number of times myself. It doesn't matter whether it is a car, a bike, or an aircraft. Upgrading is a painstaking, and often expensive process. There are various reasons for upgrading and sometimes we are pressed to do so because old parts may just be too rare, expensive or worn out — in your case you wanna more modern machine? You may find that buying a more modern machine is cheaper — and you can still keep the Fuji.

Another option — one that I did in fact because of a strict budget on a build — go single speed! A new Shimano WH-500 wheel-set costs $150 or so. Save money — you cut the axle and slip in to your 126 spread. Buy a BMX cog of your choice and some spacers, a new chain and some shorter stack bolts, Conti high pressure ties and some ultra light tubes. There's yer upgrade. Less weight, more efficient and elegant.

Well — that's just me! And maybe I sound patronizing. Not trying to; there are are hundreds of work-arounds, and what we get done in the end is often serendipitous. Like for years I'd always wanted a SunTour Accushift tranny, but getting all the gear together was just impractical — until a few weaks ago. Among three or four sources I found everything I needed — after I had started collecting the parts for something else!

It will be more economical to buy a pre-built wheel, even moreso to buy a used 130mm Shimano compatible freehub wheel. You could also shop online for used wheels or even complete groups to get you where you want to be.

Good luck and happy riding.

+1 by the time you get hub, pay for the spokes, and get the wheel built, you won't be far off from buying a new wheel that can take 8/9/10s cassettes.

I still stick by my suggestion of finding 8/9s stuff as you can find high quality stuff used... but not really for 10s stuff.

[B]if you have 120 mm — fogedaboudit! Enjoy vintage!!!



Have 126mm, and the LBS would do the spacing for me. I guess I will replace the rear wheel, any suggestions? I don't really know how to judge the quality of wheels, only the price. Gonna go with a a microshift white group (10 speed). For the wheel, i'm not looking for a really light one, just a decent, functioning wheel.


(appreciate the help!!)

help! The information on these are not specific, does anyone know these wheels? http://www.amazon.com/Sta-Tru-Silver-8-9-10-Cassette-700X25/dp/B004YJ2KJC

Shimano or SRAM compatible? thanks

Isn't this bike in another thread?

I still don't understand the reason behind this upgrade, part of the joy of C&V is the simplicity of the machines. for my part I am using alot of cassette wheels just to sort of set a 'standard' hub spacing but most of my bikes still sport DT shifters in friction or 7spd

I don't know how to respond, I just have my heart set on upgrading. I really love the frame, and would like to keep it. I don't really want a carbon or aluminum frame, I like steel. Any info on the wheel?

Any info on the wheel?

It's low end, Shimano compatible and is all black according to the description.

sorry, bombarding you with questions and links, but here's another one: http://www.amazon.com/Sta-Tru-Silver-8-9-10-Cassette-700X25/dp/B004YJ2MOK/ref=pd_sim_sbs_sg_1

SRAM and Shimano compatible? thanks!

sorry, bombarding you with questions and links, but here's another one: http://www.amazon.com/Sta-Tru-Silver-8-9-10-Cassette-700X25/dp/B004YJ2MOK/ref=pd_sim_sbs_sg_1

SRAM and Shimano compatible? thanks!

Also low quality. The default is shimano compatible unless stated otherwise. I think you should do a bit more research before proceeding...

For the wheel, i'm not looking for a really light one, just a decent, functioning wheel. As I said — Shimano WH-500 — a free hub. At 126 your frame should be safe for a 130 cold-set and realignment. The hubs are part of the 400 series — and as new they are too tight, but once re-adjusted they are amazingly smooth! Not so light, but they keep in true despite the modern way of using few spokes. See the reviews all over the net.

Bianchigirll:
I still don't understand the reason behind this upgrade, part of the joy of C&V is the simplicity of the machines. For my part I am using a lot of cassette wheels just to sort of set a 'standard' hub spacing but most of my bikes still sport DT shifters in friction or 7spd I for one feel exactly the same way as you do — as I expect many or most on C&V. But, respectfully, the OP has a specific mission. BTW ... I was surprised to find out that you can still order older series Shimano DT shifters as part numbers. Dia-Compe makes them as new production.

As I said — Shimano WH-500 — a free hub. At 126 your frame should be safe for a 130 cold-set and realignment. The hubs are part of the 400 series — and as new they are too tight, but once re-adjusted they are amazingly smooth! Not so light, but they keep in true despite the modern way of using few spokes. See the reviews all over the net.
They do look like a bargain, but am not really a fan of the all black rims and spokes. Also, 1 of the 2 reviews say they broke a spoke within the first week. Do you have these?

Here is my dilemma: I have a beautiful fuji tiara 12 speed, probably a intermediate racing bike when it came out back in '88. Been riding a lot, and want to upgrade the gearing. Don't want to spend a ton of money so I was thinking about going with a Microshift White 10 spd group. What do I have to do to make this happen? Thanks for any info you might have

Let's by very very clear on this; upgrading bicycles is a BLACK HOLE hobby. As such, like all hobbies, it does NOT make financial sense.

The cheapest way to get a 20 speed (2x10) bike is to purchase one, way less expensive than upgrading an older bike. For example:
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/dawes/lt2300_xii.htm
or
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/schwinn/schwinn_letour_legacy_xi.htm

I would not like to purchase a new bicycle. I have already thought of purchasing a new bicycle, but this one I really enjoy to ride, and the frame is a perfect size. I appreciate your concern.

Refresco:
Also, 1 of the 2 reviews say they broke a spoke within the first week. Do you have these? Yes. They are on my SS Simplon 4-Star (531). (I went in the opposite direction.) I had a very strict budget and despite the modern appearance I went for it cuz of the price. I use Nuovo Record skewers, which to my mind makes them a bit less objectionable. The bike may have looked better with older style wheels, but I came in on budget almost to the Yen. (Then I spent $5K in airfare getting my family away from a burning nuke!)

BTW, I left the spacing of the stays at 126 mm and had the axle cut by a shop that had a miter. With spacers I got a perfect chain-line using the small ring on a Sugino 75 spider.

Chain-line: when you start modding around, don't forget that factor. You can roughly map out where you are going, but you may not get to where you need to be until everything is mounted and torqued down. Then it may turn out to be Miller time!

Yeah, I read the same reviews. I don't know what they did to break the spokes. I had the rear wheel re-dished inwards, so it should not even be as strong as the original. I did have the drop-outs aligned; that may be in my favour.

Despite earthquakes heaving the roads around here, they are as true now as they were last March. Mind you, I've not ridden the daylights of it, and I do not pound over curbs etc.

If you go on the Shimano site catalog, you will see other wheelsets all stacked up in price ranges. I cannot remember if there is one that may suit your taste.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Lenton58/Simplon-1.jpg

http://www.ebikestop.com/dimension_value_series_1_700c_formula_freehub_130mm_32h_alex_y2000_silver_20_silver_br_3x-WE8677.php?PARTNER=GOOGPS

Here is what I'm thinking about going with. Obviously not quality, but I think I will replace the bearings with higher quality ones. I'll also need a shrader to presta adapter