Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area - Is my frame too small?

I'm 5'11-6', don't know my inseam but I ride a 56cm road bike (feels a tad large)

My fixed gear commuter is a Jamis sonik track bike and it's 54cm. I plan on getting into track and converting my bike into a track specific bike. My question is: Is this frame too small or is it common to run a little small.

Where the seat is now gives me a slight 10 degree bend in my knees (optimal fitting) but you can see how far down the handlebars are and it seems a little far

Thanks

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3401/imag0341u.jpg

we need more info. at ~6ft i would say a 54 is way too small. i am 6'1" and use a 60cm with plenty of seat post and a 130mm stem:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk177/thirdgenbird/bike-random/DSC01109.jpg


if i ride my wifes 55cm bike i feel like a clown.

Good lord.. haha well I'll try to go get fitted again at my LBS tomorrow.
The stem on there right now is 80mm I believe

I might just try to sell this (don't want to since I built it part by part) and get a nice track bike with the right frame size

Good lord.. haha well I'll try to go get fitted again at my LBS tomorrow.
The stem on there right now is 80mm I believe

I might just try to sell this (don't want to since I built it part by part) and get a nice track bike with the right frame size

like i said, we need more info to really know but a 54 with an 80mm stem sounds very small. if that has a 54-55cm top tube it would be very close to my wifes setup and she is 5'8" and has very long legs for her height.

i probably wouldnt be able to stand up on it without my thighs hitting the handlebars.

The 80mm stem with bullhorns is about right. I run my bullhorns + aerobars with a stem that is 2cm shorter than the stem I use for drop bars. This is normal because bullhorns move the hands much further forward of the stem than drop bars do. If you installed drops, your stem would be around 100mm, which would be appropriate.

Get drop bars and a 100 and 110mm stem and see what that does for you. Right now, I think the frame is fine.

Keep in mind that you won't be able to take a beginner class or race anything but time-trials with bullhorn bars. So getting some drop bars is important. You don't need "track" drops unless you plan on doing sprint specific events. Most track riders use road bars. Even this guy:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6119/6366550217_c62cafd084_z.jpg

(photo by Larry Hickmott)

i didnt think about the bullhorns changing things.

the frame still seems a litle short for being close to 6ft thought. that said, if the seat height is correct you must be fine.

My inseem is around 83cm but stand over on a 56cm gives me only about 1 cm clearance.

My LBS didn't really help much. I explained to them that I ride both 54 and 56 (road bike) and they seemed as indecisive as me. Seeing that I've been fitted (not professionally) for both, I guess both technically work for me.
It makes sense to just build on this Sonik since I already have it and force it to work with me lol

My inseem is around 83cm but stand over on a 56cm gives me only about 1 cm clearance.

My LBS didn't really help much. I explained to them that I ride both 54 and 56 (road bike) and they seemed as indecisive as me. Seeing that I've been fitted (not professionally) for both, I guess both technically work for me.
It makes sense to just build on this Sonik since I already have it and force it to work with me lol

your inseam is basically the same as my wife and as stated above she rides a 55. this is why i said we need more info. despite similar heights our inseams are quite different.

your bullhorn bars have quite a bit of forward extension so you may be dead on. she is not a bad looking bike either. if it were my size i wouldnt hesitate to ride it with look keo pedals and black bar tape.

Too small.
Now I need to sell it :/

Too small.
Now I need to sell it :/

that sucks... what size do you need? was it a top tube issue?

It was the overall geometry. I decided to get professionally fit and they were kind enough to fit me on a 54 and 56. Power output and comfort were better with the bigger frame.

the Bull horns Vs a Sprinter's steel drop bar?
I note seeing a head on shot of Chris Hoy, on the velodrome, crouched over ready to Pounce,
heat treated Chromoly bars to not yield when the throttle is wide open,and the turbo kicks in.

A Pursuit race is an entirely different set up, so maybe an N+ 1 solution .
set up 2 different bikes for the 2 different disciplines , and see which one suits you best

Sorry to hijack but I have the same question
http://i42.tinypic.com/2ufc65c.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/auvz11.jpg

Forgive me for the quality of the first pic. Screen capture and crop from a video. This was kind of impromptu. This bike was setup as a TT bike and I didn't change anything except for the handlebars (explains the saddle and bottle cages). The new saddle will be set back further. It currently has a 105mm stem on it.

I am 5'11"-6" the bike has a 54cm top tube.

I feel like a longer stem and more rearward saddle position would put me in a decent position but the frame just looks a little small to me...

I feel like a longer stem and more rearward saddle position would put me in a decent position but the frame just looks a little small to me...

Try moving the saddle back some first before you buy a stem. I think that will give you the arm reach you want.

Make sure you lower the saddle a touch to keep the leg extension the same. When the saddle goes back, it also goes down.

Try moving the saddle back some first before you buy a stem. I think that will give you the arm reach you want.

Make sure you lower the saddle a touch to keep the leg extension the same. When the saddle goes back, it also goes down.

The reason that I say this is because it seems that your knees are way past he pedal spindle. Not that knee over the spindle is the perfect way, but it seems that you way forward. A better photo of you on the bike will help.

Fuzzy photo gets you fuzzy suggestions :)

Kato, my first impression from the photo posted is you may be suffering from the classic hipster problem of saddle-too-high/bars-too-low.

I'm coming to this conclusion based on two things:
1) that arch in your back is a general no-no, and in my experience usually brought on by bars too low.
2) although the knee extension doesn't look bad at first sight based on angle at the bottom of your pedal stroke, you also have your toe pointed down a good amount, suggesting that you're having to reach a tiny bit at the bottom of the stroke.

Like Carleton said, reach also looks short and bend in elbows could be better.

Do you hips rock back and forth when you pedal in the drops? That's sign number one that your saddle is too high. Do you chafe, have problems with saddle sores, or go numb? That can be another, but that's more variable.

I wouldn't necessarily use saddle fore/aft as a way to ameliorate the reach problem, but I'm not saying that it'd hurt either. In either case, I'd suggest either swapping out for bars with less drop until your back angle flattens away from that curve, or getting a stem with a greater +/- degree. If you kept your saddle fore/aft exactly the same as it is now, I'd also definitely recommend a longer stem to get more reach. What you want is relaxed elbow bend in the drops.

Bernard Hinault shows a great example of an aggresive, ideal race position:
http://theudericus.free.fr/RdV/RdV_Hinault_1981.jpg

This shot of Anquetil is a good indication too:
http://i56.tinypic.com/faaex3.jpg

As to other dudes asking if their frame is too small - forget standover, height and inseam length. So long as you can get your bars by seat-tube lengths, so long as you can actually stand over the bike physically; you size it by TT and head tube length. You can generally get your contact points in all the same virtual locations per two different, but close, sizes. The dialing in comes from the handling effect you get based on TT length + stem length + bar reach.

Great post, Andre. Great photos in the post, too.

Great post, Andre. Great photos in the post, too.

X2

I agree on all points.

Kato, my first impression from the photo posted is you may be suffering from the classic hipster problem of saddle-too-high/bars-too-low.

I'm coming to this conclusion based on two things:
1) that arch in your back is a general no-no, and in my experience usually brought on by bars too low.
2) although the knee extension doesn't look bad at first sight based on angle at the bottom of your pedal stroke, you also have your toe pointed down a good amount, suggesting that you're having to reach a tiny bit at the bottom of the stroke.

Yes, that position is definitely less than ideal. Like I said it was an impromptu photo. All I did was remove my aero bars and throw on those drops. I didn't change anything about the saddle position which was setup for a TT position. I don't have a longer stem lying around at the moment.

That foot angle seems ideal to me. My hips don't rock. I'm pretty in touch with what my body tells me, if my saddle is too high I can feel it behind my knee and calves/hamstrings.



I wouldn't necessarily use saddle fore/aft as a way to ameliorate the reach problem, but I'm not saying that it'd hurt either.In either case, I'd suggest either swapping out for bars with less drop until your back angle flattens away from that curve, or getting a stem with a greater +/- degree. If you kept your saddle fore/aft exactly the same as it is now, I'd also definitely recommend a longer stem to get more reach. What you want is relaxed elbow bend in the drops.


I never use saddle fore/aft to adjust reach. I only move it based on positioning over the bottom bracket. I have a road saddle on it now and moved it further back as I don't have the aero bars on it at the moment (probably a more UCI-friendly position, as well).

Next step, at least a 120mm stem. The other option is to go to a 56cm frame (2cm longer top tube + 10mm taller head tube).

From what I've seen there isn't much difference between the sizing of sprint/keirin and time trial/pursuit bikes. Omnium/scratch/points riders seem to perhaps prefer a slightly larger frame.

A few thoughts:

1) Help us help you. Take time and take proper photos of yourself on the bike. Maybe get a friend to take the photos or set your smartphone on video mode, then hop on, then upload screen captures.

2) Set the bike up on a trainer and/or lean against the wall. Make sure that the crank arm that is facing the camera is in the forward and 90 degree position so that we can see your knee over the pedal. KOPS isn't the end-all be-all. I don't exactly agree with it, but it's a good starting point.

3) Take another photo with your leg fully extended. I agree that your foot does look hyper extended. I rarely see men using the "toe dipper" foot position. Most men are neutral or "heel droppers". When I see toe dippers, they are usually women. Maybe something to do with increased flexibility or wearing heels (not to be sexist).

4) The biggest difference between sprint bikes and mass start bikes is effective seat tube angle. "Effective" because the saddle fore/aft fine tunes this angle. Sprint bikes are generally 74.5-76 degrees and mass start are around 73-74. This pushes the sprinters forward and their bars go down for more aero, but puts LOTS of load on the arms and shoulders. Mass start racers don't hit the same top speeds and value the comfort of having more weight on the saddle over the aero benefits of being ultra low. Sprint events are no longer than 2 minutes. Mass start events can be 20 minutes or longer.

Andre's post is pretty helpful. I would give serious consideration to what he is saying. Lots of people ride with the seat too high for maximum power output and never realize it until they get fitted. You clearly are a ways off from ideal in that fuzzy photo, even if it feels comfortable. We are just trying to help ya.

Thanks for backing me dudes.

One more note: although outsiders and those new at it (myself included a handful of years ago) often get caught up in the various divisions of track racing (sprint events, pursuits, mass starts), the exclusivity of each division is really only pronounced at the professional level and not really much to consider for 95% of amateurs. Said another way: don't limit yourself to putting yourself into one category early on; race everything, see what you like and are good at and go from there. This can even take a few years of experimentation as off-season training can have a big effect on what you're going to really get into in the season. From a bike sizing perspective, aside from what Carleton said, another consideration for pursuit/TT bar setups vs. drop bar setups is the headtube length - sometimes people with a great fit on their drop bars and a tall-ish headtube end up running out of room to get the aerobars lower for a pursuit position, and have to run negative rise stems as a result (or even those funky adjustable ones). Going by your picture, I'd say such a thing isn't going to be an issue if you plan on going for pursuits. For about 95% of amateurs out there, one race bike is adequate to do it all; what fits well for endurance events is likely not to hold you back in sprints, and even so minor adjustments to stem length and height can be made to really dial things in. (Personally, I just like keeping everything set up the same regardless; that way I'm comfortable not matter what - but I lean mainly towards the points race end of the spectrum with a little bit of sprint stuff thrown in for fun, and no pursuits.)

One last thing about sizing up: I'd be wary of going up any size that'll have you on less than 100mm stem for handling reasons. Also, I'd suggest compact road handlebars or shallower traditional bends to get the bars up a little bit, personally. If you have any fitters in town with experience in fitting for track racers (not that hard really as you just have to fit someone with the intention that they'll be in the drops 100% of the time vs. a road fitter fitting someone around their brake hoods, but surprisingly some people get put off by it), I'd definitely suggest having a chat with them and seeing if they are apt to help.

Again, yes, I know...the fit sucks. I'm more concerned about the frame sizing but yes, I know if it was a better fit it would be easier to tell what I needed.


One more note: although outsiders and those new at it (myself included a handful of years ago) often get caught up in the various divisions of track racing (sprint events, pursuits, mass starts), the exclusivity of each division is really only pronounced at the professional level and not really much to consider for 95% of amateurs. Said another way: don't limit yourself to putting yourself into one category early on; race everything, see what you like and are good at and go from there. This can even take a few years of experimentation as off-season training can have a big effect on what you're going to really get into in the season. From a bike sizing perspective, aside from what Carleton said, another consideration for pursuit/TT bar setups vs. drop bar setups is the headtube length - sometimes people with a great fit on their drop bars and a tall-ish headtube end up running out of room to get the aerobars lower for a pursuit position, and have to run negative rise stems as a result (or even those funky adjustable ones). Going by your picture, I'd say such a thing isn't going to be an issue if you plan on going for pursuits. For about 95% of amateurs out there, one race bike is adequate to do it all; what fits well for endurance events is likely not to hold you back in sprints, and even so minor adjustments to stem length and height can be made to really dial things in. (Personally, I just like keeping everything set up the same regardless; that way I'm comfortable not matter what - but I lean mainly towards the points race end of the spectrum with a little bit of sprint stuff thrown in for fun, and no pursuits.)

This is exactly what I'm getting at. I want to a frame with enough flexibility for different types of riding. The 54cm feels suitable for a TT/Pursuit position but not so sure with drops...I'll find out when I can get a longer stem on there. Any issues with running a stem over 120mm?

I feel like the 56cm could be more comfortable but I don't want to run a short stem. With the relatively short headtube (125mm) I don't think it would hold me back from a decent TT/Pursuit position.

Thanks for all the tips and info.

I personally run a 140mm stem on my track bike with short reach road compact drops. No issues at all and I prefer my stems to be in the 110-130mm range typically, using TT length and HT/ST angles as the difference to get fit right.

(I think I already mentioned it but sometimes people get caught up just in the length of the stem without accounting for bar reach as well. A set of Deda Pistas have ~35mm more reach than my current Deda RHM02's, so riding the equivalent position with them would necessitate a 100-110mm stem. No one ever seems to give that combination a second glance, but for some reason doing the equivalent with a 140mm turns some heads. Simple lapse in reasoning, maybe.)

Anyways, sounds like you're on the right track. Dial ideal fit in first than decide if you want to change sizes after.

(I think I already mentioned it but sometimes people get caught up just in the length of the stem without accounting for bar reach as well. A set of Deda Pistas have ~35mm more reach than my current Deda RHM02's, so riding the equivalent position with them would necessitate a 100-110mm stem. No one ever seems to give that combination a second glance, but for some reason doing the equivalent with a 140mm turns some heads. Simple lapse in reasoning, maybe.)

This is true. I have 2 sets of track bars that have at least a 2cm difference in reach. Each bars gets it's own stem.

I haven't fine tuned these positions but feel free to critique. I'm more concerned about getting an idea whether or not this frame is a good size for me. I think I have a natural curvature to my back.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2zywt4p.jpg
TT Position. 105mm stem. I'm liking how this fits but I think I can achieve just as good of a position on the 56cm (the stem is stacked and angled upwards in this pic and the 56cm headtube is only 10mm taller). Maybe a slightly shorter stem and angle the aero bars slightly more upwards to get my arm position closer to 90 degrees.


http://i39.tinypic.com/34pcmmx.jpg
Drops (65mm reach) with 120mm stem stacked and flipped upwards (6 degrees). I'd like to try a 130mm-140mm stem but I don't have one lying around. Yes, the saddle is too high here.

I was trying to avoid building up the other frame because I would have to cut the seat mast...

I haven't fine tuned these positions but feel free to critique. I'm more concerned about getting an idea whether or not this frame is a good size for me. I think I have a natural curvature to my back.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2zywt4p.jpg
TT Position. 105mm stem. I'm liking how this fits but I think I can achieve just as good of a position on the 56cm (the stem is stacked and angled upwards in this pic and the 56cm headtube is only 10mm taller). Maybe a slightly shorter stem and angle the aero bars slightly more upwards to get my arm position closer to 90 degrees.


http://i39.tinypic.com/34pcmmx.jpg
Drops (65mm reach) with 120mm stem stacked and flipped upwards (6 degrees). I'd like to try a 130mm-140mm stem but I don't have one lying around. Yes, the saddle is too high here.

I was trying to avoid building up the other frame because I would have to cut the seat mast...

1) As you've stated, your saddle is too high. Cut the seat mast and use the excess tubing to make 10mm and 5mm shims to fine tune the height. Your saddle height for the TT position will likely be slightly lower than when in the drops.

2) Your hands are too far forward. Your aerobars cannot extend more than 5cm in front of the front axle. This is only important if you are racing a USA Cycling event where they will perform bike checks.

3) I think your bike is too small. At a normally proportioned 5'11", you should probably be on a 57 or maybe a 58cm top tube bike, definitely not a 54cm.

1) As you've stated, your saddle is too high. Cut the seat mast and use the excess tubing to make 10mm and 5mm shims to fine tune the height. Your saddle height for the TT position will likely be slightly lower than when in the drops.

I still have some play in the clamp height, I can lower it more.


2) Your hands are too far forward. Your aerobars cannot extend more than 5cm in front of the front axle. This is only important if you are racing a USA Cycling event where they will perform bike checks.

I wasn't aware of this. Good to know! I suppose my position there might be a more suitable triathlon position (they tend to be more forward on the saddle though).


3) I think your bike is too small. At a normally proportioned 5'11", you should probably be on a 57 or maybe a 58cm top tube bike, definitely not a 54cm.

This confirms what I'm thinking. I just wanted to hear it from someone else :)

Agreed, try out the 120mm on the larger frame.

Your aerobars cannot extend more than 5cm in front of the front axle. This is only important if you are racing a USA Cycling event where they will perform bike checks.

Bar location only matters if UCI regs being followed, which I gather from perusing the USA cycling rules page 49 1M e), are for only major events.


Bicycles must meet current UCI technical regulations at events that select 17-18, U23 and elite riders for international competition or national teams. All bicycles used in National Championships (for age 17 and older riders) and NRC races must comply with the current UCI regulations

As to the 5cm's carleton, this isn't so for aerobars. The UCI rule 1.3.022 refers to the front of drop bars being no more than 5cm forward of the axle, not aerobars. And the allowance appears to be 10cm if
the rider who takes part in a sprint, keirin or olympic sprint race, but must not exceed 10 cm in relation to the vertical line passing through the front wheel spindle.

For aerobars, extensions must not be further forward than 75cm (80cm if claiming morphological exception) from the centre of the BB. Rule 1.3.023


The distance between the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket axle and the extremity of the handlebar may not exceed 75 cm

and


For the track and road competitions covered by the first paragraph, the distance of 75 cm may be increased to 80 cm to the extent that this is required for morphological reasons; «morphological reasons» should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or length of the rider's body parts. A rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make use of a distance between 75 and 80 cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that he presents his licence. In such cases the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test: ensuring that the angle between the forearm and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a racing position.

Here in Australia; all UCI rules are followed to the letter of the law for every event, regardless how big or small! So we have to have a good understanding and keep up to date as the UCI constantly amend the rules. :notamused: Though they do really only bother checking at the bigger events, but when they do the bike is on the jig, calipers and scales are out as is the spririt level...

I think your bike is too small. At a normally proportioned 5'11", you should probably be on a 57 or maybe a 58cm top tube bike, definitely not a 54cm.

Not sure if I agree with this carleton. I am 183cm (just a fraction over 6'), normally proportioned and all my bikes (excluding road TT bike) have a 56cm TT and 120mm stem on the road bike and 110mm on the track bikes.

With the in the drops photo kato7997 does look a little cramped. How far back is the saddle nose back from the centre of the BB? Just thinking rather than adding length to the front that the saddle is too far forward...

Bar location only matters if UCI regs being followed, which I gather from perusing the USA cycling rules page 49 1M e), are for only major events.

True.


As to the 5cm's carleton, this isn't so for aerobars. The UCI rule 1.3.022 refers to the front of drop bars being no more than 5cm forward of the axle, not aerobars.

I stand corrected. But, I would venture to guess that the tip of those bars might be more than 75cm past the BB, too.

Not sure if I agree with this carleton. I am 183cm (just a fraction over 6'), normally proportioned and all my bikes (excluding road TT bike) have a 56cm TT and 120mm stem on the road bike and 110mm on the track bikes.

With the in the drops photo kato7997 does look a little cramped. How far back is the saddle nose back from the centre of the BB? Just thinking rather than adding length to the front that the saddle is too far forward...

Any pics of you on the bike?

I'm not overly concerned with the regulations but might as well fall within them when possible. Yes, I'm pretty sure those aerobars are extending further than 75cm past the BB.


With the in the drops photo kato7997 does look a little cramped. How far back is the saddle nose back from the centre of the BB? Just thinking rather than adding length to the front that the saddle is too far forward...

I don't have an accurate way to measure the position. It seems like a pretty standard position where it is now.

Take your bike to the track, and try riding it and a larger size (rental bike) there. Which feels to be a better fit?

There should be people there who can help you with the fit. When watching someone ride the track, it is often pretty obvious to track people which frame is too big/small, and what adjustments need to be made to get a better fit. You are getting good info here, but nothing beats having experienced people watch you ride in person. Besides, you mind find someone looking to buy/sell the type of bikes you are talking about.

Again, yes, I know...the fit sucks. I'm more concerned about the frame sizing but yes, I know if it was a better fit it would be easier to tell what I needed.

here's the thing - the difference that you are asking us about is dependent on you having a proper fit. this is the reason that bike fitters take all of your measurements before selecting a bike size and don't just look at your height and pick a frame. further muddying the waters is the fact that the bike will be used for two different riding positions. right now, all we have is your height and a poor picture of you riding a bike that is not at all fitted - certainly less than ideal circumstances to chose between two frames with a stack and reach difference of .97 and 1.30 cm respectively.

pretty much immediately, we can all tell that your saddle is very high - not by a mm or two, but perhaps by an inch or more. it seems that you are reluctant to cut the seatmast any more than you have already - is there any way that you could get a saddle with a lot less "stack" so that you could simulate a lower saddle height? i often find that when people reduce their saddle height to more conventional levels, the back and hamstring suddenly become much more flexible and get rid of the hump back. until we cure that saddle height issue, i don't think we are going to really know what is going on.

the good news is that either frame can certainly be made to work. cheers.

Any pics of you on the bike?

Not recently...

Video from the Points Qualifier at the 2009 World Masters Track Championships - http://www.cyclingmasters.tv/#53a6637e-72c7-4f54-ba40-2aa28e6121b1,0,Alphabetical,All

Event 189 - Mens 35-39 Points Race Heats 15,000m (60 laps) I get a point early in the second qualifier which starts half way in to the video and I bridge across to a solo rider at 37min and get a few minutes camera time. Red skin suit...

I don't have an accurate way to measure the position. It seems like a pretty standard position where it is now.

Sit bike upright on level floor. Hang string with small weight at the bottom from the tip of the saddle and then measure the distance between the string and centre of the BB axle. Not as accurate as a test jig the commissaires sit the bike in but will do for now...

Not recently...

Video from the Points Qualifier at the 2009 World Masters Track Championships - http://www.cyclingmasters.tv/#53a6637e-72c7-4f54-ba40-2aa28e6121b1,0,Alphabetical,All

Event 189 - Mens 35-39 Points Race Heats 15,000m (60 laps) I get a point early in the second qualifier which starts half way in to the video and I bridge across to a solo rider at 37min and get a few minutes camera time. Red skin suit...

Nice race. How did you do in the next round? I'd like to race Masters Worlds one year. I'm still not ready yet.

BTW, do you run your saddle at 72-73 degrees? I run mine at around 75 degrees.

Not sure what seat angle I run. From memory my saddle nose is just on 5cm behind the BB... Ground is sloping so will look slacker than it actually is.

Photo just after I bought my track bike. Very little adjustment since other than dropping another spacer and rotating the bars slightly.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3177/2767243692_bf0ce6b2f2.jpg

Finals of the Points race was super quick - goal for me was to just not get lapped. Ended the 30km in 37'38" (just under 48km/hr average) staying on the same lap but no points, coming 15th (16 finished) out of the 24 finalists. It was only my second year track racing so was happy just to make the finals for this race.

If the Worlds are in your country, go in regardless whether you feel ready or not. Sydney is only 10 hours drive from Melbourne so I had to go! Heading overseas is another story, but perhaps one day if I can find another 9 seconds for the 3km IP. :thumb:

Found a picture on my home PC from the 2010 Australian Masters Track Championships - in another breakaway :)

Best I could find of me racing, but unfortunately still doesn't really show my fit on a 56cm... Red skinsuit again.

http://i41.tinypic.com/ve29lc.jpg

Not sure what seat angle I run. From memory my saddle nose is just on 5cm behind the BB... Ground is sloping so will look slacker than it actually is.

Photo just after I bought my track bike. Very little adjustment since other than dropping another spacer and rotating the bars slightly.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3177/2767243692_bf0ce6b2f2.jpg


If I recall correctly, that bike (2007 Fuji Track Pro, great bike BTW) has a seat tube angle of 74 degrees. You are using a set-back seatpost which puts the center of your saddle rails about 1.5-2cm back from the center of the seat tube line. 1cm change in saddle setback is approximately 1 degree change in effective seat tube angle. So, your effective seat tube angle is (74 - 1.5) or (74-2) which is 72.5 or 73 degrees...as an armchair bike fitter :)

This is where you are getting your extra arm reach. Your legs are allowing you to scoot your bum back which stretches your arms to a suitable position. This is common for enduro racers. Less weight on the arm/shoulders which is more comfortable for longer races. If you rode in a neutral 74 degree saddle position or a Sprinter-friendly 75 or 76 degree saddle position, you'd want a longer top tube as your hands would be much closer to being under your shoulders making your arms nearly vertical.



Finals of the Points race was super quick - goal for me was to just not get lapped. Ended the 30km in 37'38" (just under 48km/hr average) staying on the same lap but no points, coming 15th (16 finished) out of the 24 finalists. It was only my second year track racing so was happy just to make the finals for this race.

If the Worlds are in your country, go in regardless whether you feel ready or not. Sydney is only 10 hours drive from Melbourne so I had to go! Heading overseas is another story, but perhaps one day if I can find another 9 seconds for the 3km IP. :thumb:[/IMG]

That's impressive making it to the final and not getting pulled. Averaging 48kph for nearly 40' is fast and tough. I agree with you about racing as many big races as you can before you are ready (if finances permit). I raced Masters and Elite Track Nationals before I was ready to be competitive. I learned a lot about jitters, nerves, warmups without getting track time, etc... that would have been major distractions when I was ready. So, the next time I go, I won't be so nervous and I'll be ready to get to work! Also, once I started racing really big events, the local and regional events weren't so nerve-racking.

I've generally found that going from a solid endurance fit to match sprinting, I really don't have to make any adjustments at all besides maybe rotating the bars a hair up. If you can spin fast and keep your back mostly aero on the enduro fit, you shouldn't have any impediments sprinting.

But the guys who only do match sprinting can definitely mess with getting their bars as low as possible, no matter how uncomfortable it may be for anything longer than 8 laps, for that all-out intensity and low center of gravity.

Couple good shots I found of the pure match sprinter position, just for reference:

Sir Chris Hoy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Chris_Hoy.jpg/220px-Chris_Hoy.jpg

Some local/national caliber domestic sprinters:
http://www.readyforplanb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/keirin-minneapolis.jpg
Note the downward angling of the arms versus the photos I posted of Anquetil and Hinault. The fundamentals of a good sprint vs. enduro position are very similar in my opinion, you're just dropping a few more spacers or getting deeper drop bars for the sprint. Less sustainable position in a long race, but great for that sub-1k of all out power. Always remember there's a point where you've gone too low, though - arched back, inability to breathe fully, knees full-on hitting you in the chest.

At the opposite end of ideal fits would be my friend here:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/227666_10150174324038389_601423388_6697271_5963530_n.jpg
Albeit that's not her bike and she's not a racer, but you can see a difference. Arms reaching way out and straight/not relaxed (meaning the core/back has to pick up the grunt work), arched back, bars too low.

I like ^this post a lot. Along with all the great advice on fit, this sounds like a good guideline to follow.

Ok. Built up the 56cm.

http://i41.tinypic.com/125ntko.jpg
Aero bars + 90mm stem (10 degrees up). Bars are slightly long and I'm "choking" them. Might try a 80mm stem.


http://i44.tinypic.com/mw2zja.jpg
Drops + 120mm stem (6 degrees up). Should have flipped the stem (or longer stem?).


In TT position I like the 54cm and 56cm equally I think. With drops, the 56cm seems to be a better fit...

My thoughts are, for the drops position, you could still add a cm or so to the stem and/or angle the bars slightly up to increase reach. Arm extension is improved, but could still be improved further.

Did you lower the seat at all? Shoot a photo with your right foot at 6 o'clock.

Ok. Built up the 56cm.

http://i41.tinypic.com/125ntko.jpg
Aero bars + 90mm stem (10 degrees up). Bars are slightly long and I'm "choking" them. Might try a 80mm stem.


http://i44.tinypic.com/mw2zja.jpg
Drops + 120mm stem (6 degrees up). Should have flipped the stem (or longer stem?).


In TT position I like the 54cm and 56cm equally I think. With drops, the 56cm seems to be a better fit...

You don't need a shorter stem. The rule of thumb is to have your elbows under your ears. Your elbows are not under your ears now and definitely should not go further back.

Consider using ski-bend bars if you need more control. I grip the hell out of mine during kilo efforts.

Your 120mm stem will reach further when you flip it. Angles. See here for yourself: http://alex.phred.org/stemchart/Default.aspx


My thoughts are, for the drops position, you could still add a cm or so to the stem and/or angle the bars slightly up to increase reach. Arm extension is improved, but could still be improved further.

Did you lower the seat at all? Shoot a photo with your right foot at 6 o'clock.

I agree with all of this.

kato7997, do this. Mount the bike with cycling shoes and shorts. Get settled into where your butt likes to be in the saddle. On one side, rotate till the crank on that side is furthest away requiring the longest extension of your leg. This is tough to do on a track bike because you have to roll or dismount...unless you have it mounted in a trainer. Now unclip that foot. Can you touch the pedal (above the spindle) with a little firmness (not barely) with the heel of your shoe? If not, that's a good sign that your saddle is too high.

I'm gonna say for the hell of it, go from a 120 to 140 on the drops. Keep the saddle-to-bar drop conservative, work on flexibility and core strength in the mean time. As those improve, flip the stem. Hunch feel based on the pics.