Framebuilders - pin type frame building

hello everyone, is their somebody or a school that teaches old pin type frame building?

Richard Sachs? (http://www.richardsachs.com/site/)

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1149/749035675_a9ddf2c460_m.jpg

that frame is connected to something. what im really looking for is the art of hanging a pinned frame then torching it.

that frame is connected to something. what im really looking for is the art of hanging a pinned frame then torching it.

The frame needs to be secure while drilling the holes for the pins. Once pinned, it's not going anywhere and you can braze it in e.g. a Park stand.

oh ok, first lesson learned!

John, have you ever pinned a fork?

John, have you ever pinned a fork?

No, I haven't.

My preference is to tack-braze.

Just finishing nails? If so, are they available without galvanizing, you have to chuck them up and sand it off, or it doesn`t matter?

you can get nails that don't have galvanizing. Using galvanized would be a really bad idea.

I went through Richard Sachs' photo galleries, it appears that he only pins the steerers on his forks. I also would swear I've seen an Anvil fork jig with his name on it, but it's not in evidence in his pictures.

I've seen photos of his in Velocipede Salon with pins in other joints but I can't say for sure which ones without looking. Go to Friday Night Lights on Velocipede Salon. Some should pop up without too much looking. For the OP, go to Cycle Design Group's site and look for the information about their pin kit. You might find more information of the kind you are looking for there.

Busdriver wins the prize. Freddie Parr (http://www.cycledesignusa.com/) is kind of the king of frame pinning. I've used various kinds of nails quite a bit, but his pinning kit works better for me. I also note the site is now linking to a frame building course in Arizona. Pricey, but ten days of one-on-one with a top builder is sure to get you a head start...

I've always thought of Richard Sachs as the king of pinning, but one man's hero is another man's also-ran.

I've used the kind of nails that Cycle Design sells for something, I think concrete work (wikipedia says I'm right, "cut nails" are used to attach boards to masonry). There was a recent discussion on pinning on the framebuilders email list. I think you need a google account to see it, but check this link (http://groups.google.com/group/framebuilders/search?hl=en&group=framebuilders&q=pinning&qt_g=Search+this+group)
If that doesn't work, go here (http://groups.google.com/group/framebuilders?hl=en&pli=1) and search for 'pinning'
The bottom line is that there are some variations in technique. If you want the gory details, Cycle Design will sell you a kit with instructions.

I have never pinned anything, I tack braze.

Zincless. Thanks.

Since asking, I took a wander through Googleland and found a reference to Llewellen pinning blades into crowns. Sounds like an occasional thing, but he doesn`t comment on what conditions other than for non-stainless crowns.
http://www.framebuilderscollective.org/forum/showthread.php?25-Pinning-joints-and-drop-outs&

Sachs used to be the king of pinning, but now that he won't sell his lugs to commoners, I've demoted him. :p

has anyone tried small concrete nails? picture is from old cycle design web page.

you can get nails that don't have galvanizing. Using galvanized would be a really bad idea.

I went through Richard Sachs' photo galleries, it appears that he only pins the steerers on his forks. I also would swear I've seen an Anvil fork jig with his name on it, but it's not in evidence in his pictures.

He may not have it in his flickr, but that fork jig most certainly exists.

He may not have it in his flickr, but that fork jig most certainly exists.
I've seen it on Anvil's flickr, but not his. On his flicker there is some flux covered piece of steel with a clearance hole cut by drilling a million times.

Hopefully my Anvil fork jig is in the mail.

were you the person that started the recent thread on pinning on the framebuilder's list?

that frame is connected to something. what im really looking for is the art of hanging a pinned frame then torching it.

as has been already posted, the pins are there as surrogate holding devices (as would be a small braze tack...) so you can take an assembled-but-not-brazed frame and then torch it freehand. the pins (and tacks) do not replace the need for some kind of fixture or precision holding device; they enhance them by allowing the effbuilder to use them to get the pipes and joints in plane and to the correct geometry and then braze it all without the confinements of q/r clamps, aggressive v-blocks, and contorted positions that arise from jigs that have blind spots. the essence of all this is that the metal needs/wants to expand and contract, and holding the pipes rigid works against of the quality of the build. a fixture is responsible for the design being true to the maker's original concept, but the care with which all the material is loaded up reflects his experience and vision for the finished product. these added steps take time and are rarely (or i should say, were rarely - because very few production shops make high quality metal frames any more atmo...) seen when high numbers are produced. but for a working effbuilder, the pinning should be thought of as a safety net, or a value-added q/c step, that allows him to take a concept, design it using precise steps, and then braze it all "on space", all the while knowing from repetition which way the metal pushes and pulls. the pins (and tacks) don't replace the very important steps that precede their use.

ps i use a #51 drill bit and common finishing nails that i buy by weight, and then taper/burnish the ends so that when i drive them in hard, they set up in the hole and hold a joint to my satisfaction. also - the fork fixture is there in my flickr sets, about 8 pages back.

were you the person that started the recent thread on pinning on the framebuilder's list?
That wasn't me, I think I've only lurked or contacted folks off list there.

FWIW, Antonio Mondonico pinned. I don't recall seeing one in my fork, but I have seen his pins in all the BB joints. They're machined pins, I think; no nailheads or nailpoints.

I had a mid-60s Cicli Rossignoli that had a nail pin in the fork crown.

The older frames that have pins probably have them because they were brazed in a hearth, with a huge air-gas flame. They prevent the tubes from flopping around and sliding off, as far as I understand.

I'd love to give pins a try. But it seems you need an accurate jig to match the holes in the lug and tube, while the joint is in the proper alignment?

See post #19. There's no magic and old school hearths to using pins these days. Look at Richard's flickr site and it's very clear. Pins work great if you're doing lugs.
Craig

The older frames that have pins probably have them because they were brazed in a hearth, with a huge air-gas flame. They prevent the tubes from flopping around and sliding off, as far as I understand.

I'd love to give pins a try. But it seems you need an accurate jig to match the holes in the lug and tube, while the joint is in the proper alignment?
You drill the holes in the tubes and lugs simultaneously. Then pin that hole then move to the next hole, pin that, etc. I guess you could pin a frame one pin at a time while holding it in a vice, align, pin again, etc.

See post #19. There's no magic and old school hearths to using pins these days. Look at Richard's flickr site and it's very clear. Pins work great if you're doing lugs.
Craig


Yeah I was referring to older frames with pins. I have a Legnano with pins, I'm pretty sure it was hearth-brazed.

By the way I always wondered why those hearths were used in the first place. The OA process was well developed by 1915. Tradition from before that perhaps.

Looking at the Flickr it seems the lugs are pre-drilled, then the tubes drilled in the fixture? Without it the chatter from the drill might disturb the mitre & alignment? One day I'll try and see, surely it can be done without a jig.

You can build a frame without a "fixture" but you need to do a lot of math and have a real understanding of what your objectives are. I build these frames in my shop and make all the pieces myself. There is almost nothing available for commercial frame building that would work on something like this. The basis of the building system is simply nice square pieces with holes in them. I have built frames in fixtures made of high density particle board with stacks of washers for creating. You should swing by my shop at some point. I am in Vermont.

I can't teach you to build with pins but I can give you an understanding of the process that one might use to hold the parts at correct relations using junk from home depot or a junk yard.

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1114/4733703192_b92f8079aa.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/frankthewelder/4733703192/)
IMG_3377 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/frankthewelder/4733703192/) by frankthewelder (http://www.flickr.com/people/frankthewelder/), on Flickr

That's an awesome frame. Hard to wrap my head around building something like that. I hear HDF is super flat. Thanks for the offer!

For the record I don't use commercial jigs. Only v-blocks, homemade Tees and dummy wheels, reference true wheels, old milling table as a surface plate, etc... I even made my own bike cad :)

When I built my jig, I bought remnant aluminum stock locally. The "pile in the corner". I think the main piece was 3/4" thick, and 3 ft square, or so. It had a very nice flat finished surface on one side. I bought other odds & ends for the other fixtures. I didn't pin, but the jig clamps had a bit of float in them so the tubes we not firmly clamped. For example, the BB shel and head tube were held by steel rods that fit inside, allowing a tiny bit of movement.

commercial fixtures are nice but certainly not required.