Advocacy & Safety - Was I really in the wrong here?

It was the middle of the night and I was riding my bike at a modest speed. I come to a well-lit intersection and, having a clear view both ways down the road and seeing no cars in sight, I cruise right through the stop sign. Then a woman on the sidewalk yelled at me for running a stop sign.

Now there were no pedestrians anywhere near the crosswalk and no cars in sight from any direction. The only way a problem could have arisen was if a passing airplane dropped a car from the sky on top of me.

Now I also know that 100% of all drivers break the law when it comes to uncontrolled T-intersections, because nobody treats them like a 3-way yield (which is the law in Alberta). It's an unwritten (illegal) rule that whoever is going straight along the top of the T goes through without yielding. Nobody follows the law in this case because you'd risk causing an accident if you tried to. But nobody yells at drivers when they break that law.

So, since I'm admitting I may be wrong, I'm asking here: was I truly in the wrong? I know I literally was breaking the law, but what I did is no more dangerous than turning the car engine over before putting on your seatbelt, which is also illegal.

Here's my view as I entered the intersection:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=109+Avenue++SE&hl=en&ll=50.956714,-114.074065&spn=0.000007,0.004823&sll=50.955602,-114.072815&sspn=0.001076,0.002411&vpsrc=6&hnear=109+Ave+SE,+Calgary,+Division+No.+6,+Alberta&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=50.955639,-114.074065&panoid=eCDWaKxnIWV6poxbn8Fkfw&cbp=12,293.99,,0,18.19

You are opening the bee's nest. You will be able to group all the responses into 3 categories:

1. Yes, you were wrong. If bikes are ever to be respected we must follow the rules of the road!

2. No, you were right. Screw the rules of the road, I do what I want!

3. Maybe. Were you really extra careful? Did you slow down and look first? It depends on the situation.

There you have it. You can close the thread now.

ah, I see. I sense these threads have come up before... >_>

I'll close it as soon as I figure out how :P

Eh, five minutes and I haven't figured out how to close it. I give up.

1. A 'STOP' sign means stop.
2. The responsibility to yield, goes to those that did not reach the intersection/t-section, first.

But unless the Google Maps pic is old, it shows no 'STOP' or 'YIELD' signs so, I don't see how you could be faulted regardless of whether or not, you stopped or yielded.

I double-checked the date on the Google Maps pic. It says 2011. So I would say you are 100% okay. The DOT(Department of Transportation(or whatever the Alberta Provincial government calls it there) really dropped the ball. The only signs visible in the pic, are two walk signs.

Smile & wave, and say, "I love you!" next time. It puts them off their game.

Then a woman on the sidewalk yelled at me for running a stop sign. Where you respectful and say:

OK mommy!

Now I also know that 100% of all drivers break the law when it comes to uncontrolled T-intersections...

Hmm, then what am I when I drive my car if not a "driver"? You're wrong in this statement because many drivers do, in fact, stop at all stop signs.


The only signs visible in the pic, are two walk signs.

Back up a little on the street (using Streetview). Stop signs are clearly visible.

...uncontrolled T-intersections....It's an unwritten (illegal) rule that whoever is going straight along the top of the T goes through without yielding.


The intersection in question here is NOT uncontrolled. The straight road at the top of the T has no stop or yield signs and thus clearly has the right of way. The approaching road which comes in on a "T" has clearly visible stop signs, and thus must stop and yield to the cross traffic.
Were you wrong? By law, yes. Would I do the same? No, I would, as a minimum do a slow "rolling stop" because I've seen too many intersections where there were "clearly no oncoming cars" until a fool with no lights zoomed by.

You were wrong by the letter of the law, but you did act in the spirit of the law.

The woman who yelled was just one of those jerks who are out to prove they are jerks. These are people who try too hard to make up for their insignificance. Ignore her and ride on.

You should have retorted to the woman 1) scripture (of your choice) 2)something in French or Italian 3) Or ask her to repeat herself (several times)

Sounds like you were technically out of line in that you failed to stop at a stop sign, but in terms of practical impact it really makes no difference. I'd liken it to a pedestrian crossing where one pedestrian pressed the button to get the signal to cross, then crossed anyway only for the light to change as they completed their crossing. Technically you're required to wait until the light turns green again but it's easy to see why an operator of a relatively slow vehicle that can't be readily identified would just go through regardless.

Doing 80mph in a 70-zone on road where you've got three lanes that are totally empty in the middle of the night is technically illegal but it's hard to see very many reasons why it's a big deal.

a woman on the sidewalk yelled at me for running a stop sign.


Guessing she was a school teacher.

Yes, you were in the wrong. Sign says stop - you stop. It's one of many habit patterns that keeps society running.

Paul

I probably wouldn't of heard her over my headphones...

You could argue that since signs and lights are for traffic control and there was no traffic, the signs were irrelevant. OTOH, you could say that you as a road user, were in fact traffic to be controlled.

Sitting at long red lights with no other vehicles in sight, you start thinking about how you can make judgements about your own behavior affecting safe road use and that leads to the thought that you are smarter than the traffic control device. The bottom line is that by blowing the light or stop sign you did not contradict the intent of the control (which was to prevent collisions). Your sin was that you got caught and reinforced to those present that you (and all other cyclists) are scofflaws.

Now I also know that 100% of all drivers break the law when it comes to uncontrolled T-intersections, because nobody treats them like a 3-way yield (which is the law in Alberta).

Poor or illegal behavior by others is not a justification for illegal behavior by you. Whether what you did is "wrong" is a moral question that I will not address nor is it the domain of a government to address the moral issue. However, by youi own admission you broke the law. So are you posting this to hear a bunch of fellow law breakers sing Kumbyah?

Yes, you were in the wrong. Sign says stop - you stop. It's one of many habit patterns that keeps society running.

Paul
society is in trouble then, running stop signs is probably my number one complaint about motorists on my commute. Which is actually an improvement, because there was a time when fear of assault was my number one complaint about motorists. Now it's down a few pegs.

Depends... was she hot?

Hmm, then what am I when I drive my car if not a "driver"? You're wrong in this statement because many drivers do, in fact, stop at all stop signs.

Sure, for certain values of "many" and "stop".

Were you 'wrong'?

You did violate the law, which had no ill or injurious effect on anyone (irrelevant, by the way); so you were 'illegal', a 'scofflaw'.

You were not dangerous to yourself or anyone else, the common standard in society today for 'right' and 'wrong'. (The whole "no blood, no foul" rule)

I would likely have done the same thing, and not A.) asked anyone if I was wrong, 'cause I knew I WAS; and B.)not thought about any justification for it. It happened, all survived, and only one person (whose opinions you would not have changed one iota) saw it.

There. You were wrong; acknowledge it and move on, as I have.

I double-checked the date on the Google Maps pic. It says 2011. So I would say you are 100% okay. The DOT(Department of Transportation(or whatever the Alberta Provincial government calls it there) really dropped the ball. The only signs visible in the pic, are two walk signs.

It looks like there are two stop signs. The first one is actually on the street sign. The second one is not on the side where you would expect it to be. Its on the left side, on the concrete divider. Neither one are the only sign on the post which is unusual... or maybe that's usual in Canada I don't know.

The problem is many 4 way stops in the burbs are put there to slow down traffic - not because its busy. I personally slow down to double check every thing before going through.

If that's what you did than the ped can pound sand. Too many self-righteous mouthpieces in this world to start bending to anyone of them.

My take on it ...

Yep. Run a STOP sign you broke the law. The damage done was that someone witnessed you doing it. This makes you appear to be a scofflaw. This doesn't really represent the cycling community very well.

But hey, learn from the experience and move on.

Yep. The law says stop like a dork despite all your senses telling you its safe to proceed. Can't have anyone thinking for themselves now can we... you should be locked-up you rolling menace!

a woman on the sidewalk yelled at me for running a stop sign.


Guessing she was a school teacher.Not out there in the middle of the night ? I think if the woman wasn't in a position to cross the street immediately and you didn't jeopardize her safety or impede her progress, I don't see anything wrong with what you did. No cars or pedestrians just some whack job that was too far away from the intersection to matter in the grand scheme of life. Wouldn't have even acknowledged her complaint. And if I did, I'd tell her, sorry, just seeing if you were paying attention ?

Doing the Panorama of the intersection, looks like Southport Way SW doesn't stop and that 109 Ave SE is the only 3 way to have to stop to either go left or right onto Southport Way SW. Here are the 2 Stop signs for that. Maybe the 3rd pic has a stop sign ? and that a left or straight thru on Southport going right to left is required from motorists in that direction ?

Yep. Run a STOP sign you broke the law. The damage done was that someone witnessed you doing it. This makes you appear to be a scofflaw. This doesn't really represent the cycling community very well.

But hey, learn from the experience and move on.

I'm really not one for assuming I'm some kind of ambassador in absolutely everything I do. It's daft to infer that everybody who is anything like me in one respect must be like me in all respects. Nobody talks about speeding motorists in the sense that they "don't represent the motoring community very well".

It was the middle of the night and I was riding my bike at a modest speed. I come to a well-lit intersection and, having a clear view both ways down the road and seeing no cars in sight, I cruise right through the stop sign. Then a woman on the sidewalk yelled at me for running a stop sign...

In WA (not sure about Alberta), a stop sign requires a motor vehicle to come to a complete stop before crossing the stop line/crosswalk/entering the intersection. There is no duty for pedestrians to stop at a stop sign, they just need to make sure the intersection is clear and it's safe to cross.

So, why did I bring up pedestrians? Because, in WA if the bicycle is on the roadway, it's subject to the laws governing motor vehicles. If the bicycle is on the sidewalk, it's subject to the laws governing pedestrians, though it must yield to non-cyclist pedestrians.

In WA, if a cyclist is on the sidewalk and s/he approaches a stop sign and the intersection is clear, s/he is NOT required to stop. If the cyclist is on the roadway, the stop is required.

Make sense?

Your action was, as you know, contrary to law. Driving at 25.05 MPH in a 25 MPH zone is also illegal. My riding at stop signs without traffic is also illegal. Big yawn.

My concern is that in just cruising through intersections you are setting yourself up for safety problems. I recommend slowing down and doing careful checks least you get sloppy and receive a sudden very painful surprise. When the next righteous citizen decides to yell at you, smile and wave.

"Now there were no pedestrians anywhere near the crosswalk and no cars in sight from any direction. The only way a problem could have arisen was if a passing airplane dropped a car from the sky on top of me."

If this was true, then you didn't do anything wrong. Keep in mind though that at least half the accident reports on file include a similar quote from the guy who ran over a ped, cyclist, motorcyclist or whatever. It sounds an awful lot like "I never saw him" or "he came out of nowhere" or " one moment the road was clear and the next he was right in front of me, there was nothing I could do."

So are you posting this to hear a bunch of fellow law breakers sing Kumbyah?
Nicely put, and most obviously the case. This particular forum is full of it.

Yep. The law says stop like a dork despite all your senses telling you its safe to proceed. Can't have anyone thinking for themselves now can we... you should be locked-up you rolling menace!

Dude, when you're part of a society, you have certain OBLIGATIONS to EVERYONE else -- namely, act like you have some sense. Stopping for a stop sign at an empty intersection is not an extreme or stupid application of sheeplike adherence to some imagined totalitarianism.

You want to run a red or a stop, go ahead; if you have some bad consequences, accept them and don't whine about the "inequity of it all". If you get a ticket, pay it and STFU. If you get hit, hope & pray you don't get sued for vehicle damage.

My concern is that in just cruising through intersections you are setting yourself up for safety problems. I recommend slowing down and doing careful checks least you get sloppy and receive a sudden very painful surprise.
this is what the motorists do, slow down enough that they can see what's coming, and then only stop if they are going to get killed otherwise. I really can't believe people get up all in arms when cyclists do the same thing. Plenty of videos on youtube showing this behavior for motorists

Nicely put, and most obviously the case. This particular forum is full of it.Are YOU singing Kumbyah LAW BREAKER?:rolleyes:

this is what the motorists do, slow down enough that they can see what's coming, and then only stop if they are going to get killed otherwise. I really can't believe people get up all in arms when cyclists do the same thing. Plenty of videos on youtube showing this behavior for motorists

Thank you -- truth!

So that makes it fine with you then?

You guys have lost the ability to ratiocinate, if you ever had it. If there's no avoiding the hit I'll have to remember to load up the rear wheel.

So that makes it fine then?

You guys have lost the ability to ratiocinate, if you ever had it. If there's no avoiding the hit I'll have to remember to load up the rear wheel.This from the guy who has very long post rationalizing how his law breaking is just fine while others law breaking is over the top. Frankly I am glad to have a different ability to ratiocinate than your warped ability.

Your argument, endlessly repeated, is that because I cruise the freeway at 75 here in sunny SoCal (limit 70), like just about everyone else, I cannot criticize those who bust red lights or ride through stop signs.

Truly, in all my time on internet forums in the past decade (flying, motorcycling, windsurfing, scuba), I have never come across a more inane "argument".

You get the prize sport, you really do. :thumb:

Just me but I think people have really lost rational sight, focus & forgotten why any law is created:

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/historyprofiles/tp/Why-Laws-Exist.htm

Just because a law exists, doesn't necessarily mean that it must be enforced. To me, laws are only in place as a last resort to determine fault or blame. If what you did was harmless, the law is unnecessary, doesn't even need to be enforced. And simply because an officer may have observed it, is certainly not required to be enforced either. There is police officer discretion that tempers whether laws are more or less strictly applied, if even at all. Take a course in criminal justice. Apparently the woman that saw you roll thru the stop sign has an issue, it pissed her off. but was she wronged or harmed by it, her safety in jeopardy ? If not, she needs to stfu and move on with her life. A policeman had he observed the infraction probably ignores it simply because there was nothing to enforce and legislate that would make any sense to waste everyone's time with. Now had there been an accident, injury or property damage, that's when the law would need to be enforced and some interpretation to determine liability and divy up the share of loss. Otherwise who cares whether or not you rolled thru the intersection when the nearest human being was effectively far enough away that nobody was adversely effected or inconvenienced even ?

Your argument, endlessly repeated, is that because I cruise the freeway at 75 here in sunny SoCal (limit 70), like just about everyone else, I cannot criticize those who bust red lights or ride through stop signs.

Truly, in all my time on internet forums in the past decade (flying, motorcycling, windsurfing, scuba), I have never come across a more inane "argument".

You get the prize sport, you really do. :thumb:Since you are still unable to understand my point even with your of extremely high reasoning, it is that you are a HYPOCRITE. So feel free to keep criticizing others, proving yourself a hypocrite and stop whining when it gets pointed out.

I asked you before in another thread and I'll ask you again here since you bring it up so tiresomely: do you ever exceed the posted speed limit as a motorist, by however small a margin? If so, then by your logic, you would be a hypocrit if you ever criticized anyone for any infraction of the laws of the road no matter how egregious.

What is your answer?

OP: Personally I wouldn't have done as the woman did in those circumstances but I understand where she was coming from. Perhaps she had witnessed more serious violations and was losing patience with scofflaw cyclists. I haven't reached that point yet myself ......

Did she have a handbag btw? If so, did she wave it at you threateningly? :)
[ref. to the Iron lady and PM's Question Time earlier this week]

Dude, when you're part of a society, you have certain OBLIGATIONS to EVERYONE else -- namely, act like you have some sense. Stopping for a stop sign at an empty intersection is not an extreme or stupid application of sheeplike adherence to some imagined totalitarianism.

You want to run a red or a stop, go ahead; if you have some bad consequences, accept them and don't whine about the "inequity of it all". If you get a ticket, pay it and STFU. If you get hit, hope & pray you don't get sued for vehicle damage.


The only person who needs to stop whining, STFU, and get some sense is you.

Your encouraged to direct half-baked poison at someone else who might actually care.

Have a nice day.

I'm a firm believer that noone is always 100% in complinance with the law. People draw their own lines about what laws they'll 'fudge' and generally judge anyone who's line is more lenient as irresponcible.

As for me, I will roll through a red light or stop sign without a second thought as long as I'm not endangering or inconviencing anyone else. I'm under no pretense that I'm doing no wrong. I'm breaking a law. I accept the karmic or legal consequences of the act. If I'm in a crash while breaking a law, the crash is my fault. If I'm tickekted I pay the fine. I am under no obligation to present myself as a law abiding cyclist so as to prevent a driver from being angry at cyclists.

I asked you before in another thread and I'll ask you again here since you bring it up so tiresomely: do you ever exceed the posted speed limit as a motorist, by however small a margin? If so, then by your logic, you would be a hypocrit if you ever criticized anyone for any infraction of the laws of the road no matter how egregious.

What is your answer?

OP: Personally I wouldn't have done as the woman did in those circumstances but I understand where she was coming from. Perhaps she had witnessed more serious violations and was losing patience with scofflaw cyclists. I haven't reached that point yet myself ......

Did she have a handbag btw? If so, did she wave it at you threateningly? :)
[ref. to the Iron lady and PM's Question Time earlier this week]As noted before, this question has no bearing on you being a hypocrit. It is just an attempted deflection of your actions.

So take your troll game elsewhere.

PS - I do follow the speed limit laws. I love how it pisses off you speeders when I am driving exactly the speed limit.

You are telling me that you ALWAYS obey the posted limit? That is certainly remarkable, if true. I'd say, from my experience here in CA, that a tiny fraction of motorists can honestly say that, certainly <5%. Often when driving in light-to-moderate traffic on the freeways around here everyone - and I mean every single car - is travelling above 70. Sometimes the median speed approaches 80.

I counted how many traffic lights I deal with on my commute every day - 31 each way. Rounding to 30, that's 300 per week or 15,000 per year roughly. Not once have I driven through a red light in the past 5 years on that commute, not a single time. If I routinely busted red lights, or even did it occasionally, then you could and should call me a hypocrite for criticizing other road users for doing so.

Ditto for STOP signs, but I haven't done a count. I respect them - how much extra time does it take to do that?

I always enjoy driving rentals in Hawaii (Big Island) - wonderful place. I'm sure you know to look out for some of those bozos in rented Mustangs ...... Good to read that you use a mirror.:thumb:

As noted before, this question has no bearing on you being a hypocrit. It is just an attempted deflection of your actions.
Not wishing to seem pedantic or nuthin' but since you bring it up almost every time I post these days ....... the word is hypocrite. Even tho' it's pronounced like the word "hematocrit".

In a car at that intersection I'd stop, every time. Stop sign means stop. On a bike I'd do a rolling stop just like most everyone else, while knowing I should have stopped.

There is a problem with the no harm no foul reasoning. If there is even a potential danger resulting from ignoring traffic laws, even one chance in a thousand, that's harmful even if nothing happens that time. After the thousand repetitions it happens. In a very real sense, the mathematically valid sense, the pedestrian who yelled was harmed: one thousandth (for example) as much as crashing into her.

Obviously I'm interpolating some facts in this incident, which may or may not be true. The rider continued through at speed (since he said "just cruised through" and the pedestrian was outraged enough to yell). It wasn't "clear" with "no danger" because there was a pedestrian, and her location was such that she might have chosen to enter the street. These interpolations might be invalid.

Not wishing to seem pedantic or nuthin' but since you bring it up almost every time I post these days ....... the word is hypocrite. Even tho' it's pronounced like the word "hematocrit".Yes I know, I guess you missed the fun I was having at repeating your incorrect spelling.


... If so, then by your logic, you would be a hypocrit if you ever criticized anyone for any infraction of the laws of the road no matter how egregious.

You are telling me that you ALWAYS obey the posted limit? That is certainly remarkable, if true. I'd say, from my experience here in CA, that a tiny fraction of motorists can honestly say that, certainly <5%. Often when driving in light-to-moderate traffic on the freeways around here everyone - and I mean every single car - is travelling above 70. Sometimes the median speed approaches 80.

I counted how many traffic lights I deal with on my commute every day - 31 each way. Rounding to 30, that's 300 per week or 15,000 per year roughly. Not once have I driven through a red light in the past 5 years on that commute, not a single time. If I routinely busted red lights, or even did it occasionally, then you could and should call me a hypocrite for criticizing other road users for doing so.

Ditto for STOP signs, but I haven't done a count. I respect them - how much extra time does it take to do that?

I always enjoy driving rentals in Hawaii (Big Island) - wonderful place. I'm sure you know to look out for some of those bozos in rented Mustangs ...... Good to read that you use a mirror.:thumb:And all of you motorist feel it is just fine breaking certain laws while whining about cyclist. Since I see many motorist run red lights and stop signs when making right and left turns, then by your logic, it is alright for everyone to break those laws as well.