General Cycling Discussion - biking etiquette

I know you should always be as cautious as you can be at all times, but I'm talking about who should do what. I'm speaking as both a biker as well as a driver.

when a commuter bikes on a sidewalk on the let side of the street, he crosses into the intersection, and there are cars wanting to make turns. Who has the right of way? What if the car is pulling out into the street? a car pulling from the street from the opposing direction (turning right)... a car pulling from the street going in the same direction (left turn).

Is there a way to make a schematic or a basic picture of the situation your are trying to describe? It is kinda hard to understand what exactly you are talking about.

229576

red is biker.

blue is car.

describe who has right of way in each situation A B and C please

thanks


noted: I will take caution in approaching busy intersections, because some drivers are idiots. But it would be nice to clear this up

If you're not riding on the road, you are essentially a wheeled pedestrian, and should stop and give way at every side road you cross, including when using MUPs unless markings/signs specifically give you right of way. Far better to ride on the road, with traffic, where you should be. Then the rules of the road are clear.

http://bicyclesafe.com/

red is biker.

blue is car.

describe who has right of way in each situation A B and C please

thanks


noted: I will take caution in approaching busy intersections, because some drivers are idiots. But it would be nice to clear this up

In most states sidewalk riding is illegal. In most where it is allowed when entering the street at a crosswalk the bike rider is required to dismount and walk the bike across the street.

I would agree with those above, a cyclist on the sidewalk is a pedestrian. A problem with riding on the sidewalk is that a pedestrian goes about 3 mph which is essentially motionless as far as automobiles are concerned. When a motorist turns into a driveway or a parking lot, they do not need to check very far down the sidewalk. Even a slow cyclist can easily go 3 to 5 times that fast. Motorists are unlikely to look that far down the sidewalk which can lead to cyclists plowing into the car as it moves across the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding can be problematic for reasons like this.

I would agree with those above, a cyclist on the sidewalk is a pedestrian. A problem with riding on the sidewalk is that a pedestrian goes about 3 mph which is essentially motionless as far as automobiles are concerned. When a motorist turns into a driveway or a parking lot, they do not need to check very far down the sidewalk. Even a slow cyclist can easily go 3 to 5 times that fast. Motorists are unlikely to look that far down the sidewalk which can lead to cyclists plowing into the car as it moves across the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding can be problematic for reasons like this.

What if Ben Johnson were hurtling down that same sidewalk though? Should you be running on the road as soon as you are above a minimum speed?

i would say, as a cyclist, cars ALWAYS have the right of way, no matter what, because they are bigger and hurt you more than you hurt them.

that said...once you get used to riding with traffic, and have good skills, it doesn't matter so much...

http://www.digave.com/videos/#top

I'd say it's a gray area and depends on the specific laws that apply in your state. In Michigan, pedestrians have the right of way in all marked and unmarked crosswalks. (An unmarked crosswalk is one that is implied by an intersection.) But bicycles have all the rights and responsibilities as vehicles, which means they're not supposed to be in a crosswalk. Also, more often than not the cyclist is crossing against the 'walk' light, which is the same as running a red light. Other than that, though, I guess it's down to the 'last chance of avoidance' principle regardless of who is supposed to have the right of way.

In this hypothetical, is the cyclist of the motorist supposed to be the 'good guy?' That is, being the one trying to do the right thing...

I know you should always be as cautious as you can be at all times, but I'm talking about who should do what. I'm speaking as both a biker as well as a driver.

when a commuter bikes on a sidewalk on the let side of the street, he crosses into the intersection, and there are cars wanting to make turns. Who has the right of way? What if the car is pulling out into the street? a car pulling from the street from the opposing direction (turning right)... a car pulling from the street going in the same direction (left turn).

It's not really clear. This is why you shouldn't be on the sidewalk.

What's etiquette have to do with it?

It's not about rules, it's about survival. If you're riding on a sidewalk and approaching an intersection, you are going to enter traffic from a direction they're not expecting. The best thing for you to do in that situation is to yield to everybody.

It's not really clear. This is why you shouldn't be on the sidewalk.

That's why you shouldn't be on the sidewalk riding in an unsafe manner. Sidewalk riding is as dangerous or as safe as you choose to make it. Of course, safe and fast are frequently mutually exclusive regards sidewalk riding.

Seems to me the op needs to decide whether to be a cyclist or a pedestrian with a bike.

I hit a cyclist once who was doing exactly what you described. Worst moment of my life. Fortunately he wasn't hurt, nor was his child who was in a kid seat on the back of the bike.

Even though the cyclist was entirely at fault for a) riding on the sidewalk, and b) riding against traffic, the cop felt so bad for the cyclist that he ticketed me for failure to yield.

I cringe now every time I see someone riding like this. It's just a matter of time until they're hit.

I hit a cyclist once who was doing exactly what you described. Worst moment of my life. Fortunately he wasn't hurt, nor was his child who was in a kid seat on the back of the bike.

Even though the cyclist was entirely at fault for a) riding on the sidewalk, and b) riding against traffic, the cop felt so bad for the cyclist that he ticketed me for failure to yield.

I cringe now every time I see someone riding like this. It's just a matter of time until they're hit.

That sucks.. I had to dodge a sidewalk cyclist coming blind off the sidewalk on a 4 way when I had no stop and right of way as I was turning... but yeah this happens a lot I think.

What's etiquette have to do with it?

It's not about rules, it's about survival. If you're riding on a sidewalk and approaching an intersection, you are going to enter traffic from a direction they're not expecting. The best thing for you to do in that situation is to yield to everybody.

This is why cycling on the sidewalk is unsafe, despite the fact that being further away from those scary cars makes you feel safer. Motorists scan the sidewalk for objects going at pedestrian speeds. Which means they look at the curb to see if one is going to step off at the last instant. A bike on an interception course and speed is outside of the scan and doesn't get seen. Which is as you'd expect, since bicycles are vehicles and should be in the road. Sidewalk riding is only safe if the cyclist never enters an intersection. Which is pretty hard to accomplish, considering every driveway is an intersection.

I'm still not clear if the OP was the cyclist, or the motorist.

I hit a cyclist once who was doing exactly what you described. Worst moment of my life. Fortunately he wasn't hurt, nor was his child who was in a kid seat on the back of the bike.

Even though the cyclist was entirely at fault for a) riding on the sidewalk, and b) riding against traffic, the cop felt so bad for the cyclist that he ticketed me for failure to yield.

I cringe now every time I see someone riding like this. It's just a matter of time until they're hit.

I got hit in such a situation back when I was 12 or 13 years old. Even then I had the sense to realize that I was the one who was at fault.

So the general consensus is that it's safer to ride on the road than on the sidewalk?

I can't tell you how many times I've been honked for riding on the road. I don't have a good figure on how fast I ride, but I'm definitely not that slow.

Well if you ride like the old guy on "Laugh In" and weave all over the place I might honk at you too. Yes, I think it is much safer and correct to ride in the street, with the flow of traffic as far to curb as is safe. Not in the gutter but the road.

There are some minor exceptions I might make. In my town there is one narrow stretch of very heavily traveled road and the surface condition is just awful. I have used the sidewalk there when it was clear of peds. Also the sidewalk is laid as almost an extension or apron of the street.

What if Ben Johnson were hurtling down that same sidewalk though? Should you be running on the road as soon as you are above a minimum speed?

In that case Ben would be acting like an idiot, especially if he were to race through an intersection without (or against) a pedestrian signal without looking.

So the general consensus is that it's safer to ride on the road than on the sidewalk?

My experience is that I'm more visible and safer when I ride as part of the traffic on a street or road. For endless arguments (not discussions, really, nobody's listening), see the Advocacy forum. (See also Effective Cycling.)


I can't tell you how many times I've been honked for riding on the road. I don't have a good figure on how fast I ride, but I'm definitely not that slow.

Being honked at is part of being in traffic, either on a bike or in a car, IME. But you shouldn't do something stupid just because you're surrounded by stupid people. Especially when it places you in a more dangerous situation, like the original post for example.

Riding safely means both riding predictably and visibly. The most common cause of car/bike accidents isn't a rear-end, it's a "sorry mate, I didn't see ya." Hugging the curb is usually counter-productive; drivers see you better if you're 'in their face,' even if they don't like it. My general rules, to which there are always exceptions, are:
1. Always ride in a straight line - no dodging in and out of parking lanes.
2. Act like a car. Obey traffic laws and signal your intents; otherwise you're making up your own rules as you go; and drivers don't know what those rules are.
3. I need, and take, about 1.5 feet between my wheel and any rough/broken pavement/sewer grates, or curbing.
4. I need, and take, 4-6 feet between parallel-parked cars along the curb and me. Getting doored can be fatal!
5. I need at least 3 feet clearance between me and passing cars.
6. Allowing for the room I need, if there isn't enough room left for cars to safely share the lane with me, I will move to the left far enough to force cars to change lanes before passing me. As a general rule, if you leave enough room for a car to pass you in your lane with 1 inch of clearance, someone WILL do it.
7. I don't like bike lanes, but I will use them if they are clean and smooth, if they don't put me in the 'door prize' zone, and if traffic is heavy enough that I would otherwise cause an obstruction. The problem with bike lanes is, as with sidewalks, they take you out of the drivers' direct line of sight.

Riding safely means both riding predictably and visibly.

This is what it all boils down to. Traffic laws and rules exist to impose a sense of order and, therefore, predictability on a situation that would otherwise be lethally chaotic. The only things that make it work at all are the participants being predictable and visible. When either of those fail, someone invariably gets hurt or killed.

Sidewalk riding, especially in the wrong direction, is asking for trouble, IMO. Visibility and predictability both suffer.

So the general consensus is that it's safer to ride on the road than on the sidewalk?

Yes. Local laws vary but in many places it's illegal too (with exceptions made for young children).

In this hypothetical situation, it doesn't matter who has the right of way. If you get hit, you're dead and the driver has a dinged fender. Follow the Law of Gross Tonnage (http://www.auxguidanceskills.info/press/bigger.html).

But you really should be riding in the street in the direction of traffic. It's much safer. When someone honks or yells at you, they're supporting your right to ride a bicycle in the roadway. :)

Drivers honking at you and/or screaming 'get on the sidewalk' or something to that effect seem to be a fact of life for a cyclist in the US. Ignore them. You may annoy people, but very rarely are they insane enough to actually run you off the road. As a cyclist, you are driving a vehicle and should behave as such. This means riding in the road, with traffic, a safe distance from the kerb or parked cars. A bicycle is basically a low-powered motorcycle. There are occasions where it's best not to act vehicularly, such as turning left at a busy junction with fast-moving traffic. In this case, dismount and wheel your bike across at a pedestrian crossing (or turn right, turn around and head straight over the junction) but in most situations, the road is generally a safer and better place to be.

mrund3rd09,
There is more etiquette in warfare than there is in sidewalk "salmoning".... good luck surviving you choice of cycling style!

Alternatively, you can ride on the road, act like a car, obey traffic laws, and take the lane!

Follow the Law of Gross Tonnage (http://www.auxguidanceskills.info/press/bigger.html).


I try to ride in accordance with this law as much as possible. I yield the right of way and rarely if ever insist on my right, since I am the one that will lose whatever happens in a collision. I do get pissed off sometimes, want to yell and rant and rave, but in the end I am the one that has the most to lose. No desire to be dead right...I am old enough to have enough experience in life now to realize that immortality isn't in the cards.

In most states sidewalk riding is illegal. In most where it is allowed when entering the street at a crosswalk the bike rider is required to dismount and walk the bike across the street.

Careful of your 'facts' there, pard; the main push of sidewalk-biking laws is at the city level, not the state. And "MOST" is a bit misleading.

OP, a sidewalk rider generally has pedestrian ROW, and cars should wait; whether they DO or not is a coin flip.

It's better to be on the road, since all 50 recognize a bike's equal right to the road.

In most circumstances it is much safer to cycle on the road rather than on the sidewalk. Read John S. Allen's Bicycling Street Smarts (http://bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/) for an explanation, and for advice on how to handle tricky traffic situations. (And as always, thanks to John for making this pamphlet available free online!)

Drivers may honk and yell at you from time to time, but at least that means they see you!

If I am in a situation where it is both legal and safe to ride on the sidewalk, and I'm doing so, I either dismount at crosswalks and walk across or I ride across at a walking pace.

in this hypothetical situation, it doesn't matter who has the right of way. If you get hit, you're dead and the driver has a dinged fender. Follow the law of gross tonnage (http://www.auxguidanceskills.info/press/bigger.html).

But you really should be riding in the street in the direction of traffic. It's much safer. when someone honks or yells at you, they're supporting your right to ride a bicycle in the roadway. :)
Awesome!!!

As a pedestrian, when I'm passed by cyclists (often the brush past me very closely while I'm pushing my 9 month old in her stroller), I tend to get upset. They're probably as likely to get yelled at me to get on the road as they are to get yelled at by a car. I think when I was commuting regularly (have quit for the season as I started a new job and am waiting for spring weather to start up again after I've been there a while and have the customs figured out), I would get yelled at maybe once every week or two at most. Maybe I just wasn't listening, but to me one bad interaction every 50-100 miles isn't too bad. Sure, I got passed close a lot more than that, but actually yelling was pretty rare.

During the very few times I feel I NEED to ride on a side walk, I let everyone else have the right away. I just feel safer that way.

OP, a sidewalk rider generally has pedestrian ROW, and cars should wait; whether they DO or not is a coin flip.

That is not true. First, a bicycle is defined as a pseudo-vehicle. We're all familiar with the clause "all the rights and responsibilities of vehicles" that is a part of the vehicle code in every state. Don't just focus on the rights. Second, bikes must yield to pedestrians, period. Hit one and it's automatically your fault. Being on the sidewalk DOES NOT make you a pedestrian; you are still a vehicle and your presence on the sidewalk is tolerated at best. Sidewalks have "walk" in the name for a reason. Get hit by a car in a crosswalk and you are pretty much undefined and have no legal status.

To me, a bike rider on the sidewalk denotes a 3rd-grader skill level. In an adult-sized package, that can be dangerous to everyone around them.

In this hypothetical situation, it doesn't matter who has the right of way. If you get hit, you're dead and the driver has a dinged fender. Follow the Law of Gross Tonnage (http://www.auxguidanceskills.info/press/bigger.html).I also make use of that law. You can enter any tricky intersection at full speed if you're coat tailing a big truck or bus by its rear-left *corner* (so that you can see the driver). It has less to do with keeping eye contact with the driver than (a) assuming a safe position in case truck brakes hard and (b) seeing the traffic ahead.

Heavy vehicles are safest to coat tail as (a) they move more predictably (can't afford otherwise) and (b) just as acar intimidating a bicycle, a big truck will intimidate all the lighter traffic off your way (essentially clearing the road for you).