Winter Cycling - Cold Toes.... 1st year commuting in the cold

Hello all. This is my first year commuting in the cold. Actually, this morning was my third morning commuting by bike. I love it.

But my toes being cold really does suck. This morning it was 26 degrees out and my commute is 11 miles one way which is about 50 minutes for me on my mtn bike.

I do have clipless pedals and would like to keep them (versus going to platform).

My question is: how do you all keep your toes warm? Mine get so cold. I tried a pair of wool socks, a bag over them and this morning I tried plastic wrap over the wool socks but still cold.

Also. what are you all wearing for the power half of your body?

Layers, layers, layers. And if you are still "clipping in" that could be a part of the problem. I use platforms all year long and I don't "clip in"....EVER. But I have seen the shoes and, frankly, they don't appear to be winter worthy.

As for me I wear insulated work boots with multiple pairs of socks and, sometimes, a plastic bag in between my barefoot and the socks to help keep the warmth in. When I lived in the midwest and would often ride in below zero weather I would wear Mukluks.

Neoprene booties. Lycra booties will help some, but nothing beats neoprene. You can still use your clipless pedal and walk as normally as you currently do in whatever shoes you use, but cold and wet are severly limited. So much so in fact that I am looking for neoprene-backed gloves.

Tip: In really cold weather you can drop one of the hand warmer packs in the toe area of your shoe as well. They seem to work well for an hour or so.

As for your legs: Pearl Izumi AmFIB tights hand down. They are the best cold weather tights made, bar none.

steal:

Thanks for the advice. Thinking of trying to get Lakes Boots for cycling but we will see.

I am not sure the Pearls will fit me. I am 6 foot 4 inches and 340 pounds. :)

I don't clip. For comfort I'll use the chemical warmers inside of sneakers. Really cold and I have a pair of insulated hiking boots, one size too big. Only thing about the boots is they are heavy. Also, chemical warmers would get expensive if you are commuting each day. I'd go with platforms and boots if it was me doing your commute.

Special winter shoes will help a lot. I actually use a pair of Specialized Rockhoppers that I don't think are really intended for winter. But the uppers are solid suede leather, and with wool socks I have ridden down to -7F comfortably. Note: they are for MTB clipless pedals.

They look a lot like these but they are all black http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Specialized-Rock-Hopper-Cycling-Shoes-Size-38-/190539734140?pt=US_Men_s_Athletic_Footwear&hash=item2c5d0d9c7c

My question is: how do you all keep your toes warm? Mine get so cold. I tried a pair of wool socks, a bag over them and this morning I tried plastic wrap over the wool socks but still cold.



Tried that. Finally said screw it and went to platform pedals with insulated boots. It made life a whole lot easier......and warmer.

It's been said before but bears repeating. Loose fitting shoes will keep your feet warmer. Too tight and you compress insulation and reduce circulation.

I've heard of people wrapping the foot in aluminum foil (like wrapping a baked potato). I have no idea if this is effective.

One other tip. If your feet are really cold, get of the bike and run with it a few minutes. That should warm up the feet in a hurry.

Paul

I asked this same question a few weeks ago and Machka came back with his reply and his website on winter cycling. Can't remember the link right off hand. From what I have seen thus far and heard thus far you need the wind break. Like I said with my first winter century post last night, I think the wind shell would have kept me from having the frozen nuts.

Neoprene does a fabulous job at both keeping the water and the wind off. I just got my neoprene shoe cover, Pearl Izumi Amfib's, today in the mail. I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow to try them out.

One thing you will notice over time is how used to the cold you can get if you continue to put yourself out there. The body will acclimate to it. My feet get cold and I notice it but it doesn't bother me much anymore. I can ride without the face covered over, no beard/mustache or face mask/balaclava with temps at or below freezing and after the first several minutes I don't even realize my face is cold anymore.

The key tricks Machka points out on his winter cycling website is to make sure and keep the ankles and wrists warm. They control the body/feel temperature of your feet and hands. I do tend to believe this after switching over to the ragg wool gloves the past couple of days. My hands have been way the heck warmer then what they ever used to be. I'm still trying to figure out how to protect the ankles though. I think with the booties that I may have a bit better of a way of keeping the feet warm now since I do the capability of keeping the wind off them.

I have heard both sides of the story. One side says you need to have the moisture and keep it warm and the other side says you have to wick the moisture away as the moisture will cause your body to cool down even faster. Right now I'm wicking the moisture away. Last year...and back last month I was always putting on one pair of socks, admittedly cotton, and then putting a shopping bag over the top of it and then putting on another pair of socks. When I would get home the outer sock would be dry and the inner sock would be anywhere from slightly wet to quite wet depending on how warm/wet it was out. My feet were always cold. I've had a few times in the past couple of weeks when my feet weren't cold at all at any point during the ride even when starting out at the freezing point with a nice head wind. Now I do the layering and keep the plastic completely away from the body altogether though. To have feet that were totally tolerable while doing a 100 mile ride yesterday I would have to say keeping the feet as dry as possible is probably the smarter way to go. Just make sure to find a way to keep the ankles warm. Also make sure to keep the wind off them. Wind will suck the heat out of you faster than you could ever imagine and you don't think a thing about it because the wind is always hitting you while you are riding...unless you get in a super stiff tailwind. If you can hear the wind blowing by you, its stealing the heat away from you unless you are preventing it from doing so.

I've heard of people wrapping the foot in aluminum foil (like wrapping a baked potato). I have no idea if this is effective.

Paul

Based on the insulating value of aluminum foil, this would only serve to keep the aliens away.:roflmao2:

Actually, aluminum foil does a pretty decent job not of insulating per se, but reflecting heat. It is used in many insulating applications such as heat or cold producing appliances as an adjunct to fiberglass or other insulations. We use aluminized mylar caps on surgical patients and swaddlers for newborns. If someone made an aluminized mylar bootie that went over a wool sock and inside your shoe/boot I'd give them a try.

One side says you need to have the moisture and keep it warm

This side is dangerously incorrect. Moisture in any form, even very high humidity, reduces the effectiveness of insulation. Wool is probably the most effective insulation when wet and even that loses over half of its insulating power. Damp cotton is worthless in a cold exposure situation. You are better off naked and dry than wearing a damp cotton shirt. Moisture transmits heat, the exact opposite of what insulation is supposed to do. That's why you can stick you hand into a 140 degree F oven (just don't touch the metal) and it just feels really warm, but the same temperature water will scald you severely in seconds. At 65 degrees air is just cool, swimming in water at the same temperature is downright cold. Trapped dry air is your friend, trapped moisture is not. Fast drying / wicking fabrics are available inexpensively these days as every big box store has their own brand of sportswear. I have several long-sleeve wicking tech t-shirts from Target or Walmart that cost me around $12 each and they make a great base layer to well below freezing. When it gets below zero F I switch to lightweight polypropylene shirt and long johns. Though I've never ridden in -40F or colder weather, my job requires that I be out in those conditions from time to time and the choice there is dual layer undergarments with a polypropylene inner layer and a wool/poly outer layer.

Your shoes need to be big enough to allow for good blood circulation, and for your insulating layer to do it's job.

Gortex socks - I have a pair that I wear over my normal fall weight wool cycling socks - difference is night and day.

I just sprung for a pair of Shimano MW81 winter boots and rode them for the first time last night. 1.5 hours of icy/wet single track riding and temp was about 20 degrees at the end of the ride. Worst case scenario, I put my foot down ankle deep into a bog and later fell full on into an icy mud puddle. I finshed the ride cold as hell but the shoes were total champs. My feet were downright toasty.

I bought the shoes a little big (I usually wear 43 or 43.5, I bought 44s), and wore medium thickness wool socks. My feet liked having room inside the shoe. If they had been any warmer they would have been too warm.

I was thinking about the shimano mw81 too.

I am entraining the idea of wearing sandals with different thicknesses of merino wool socks and neoprene socks and such. The thought is that I don’t need to worry about not having enough room, etc.

thoughts?

As a competitive cyclist, I can't ride without being clipped in. Sorry, you just can climb or get any speed on puck pedals. Of course, my "commuter bike" is either my road or cyclocross bike. So, I guess I am not your average commuter.

I live in Toronto, ON, Canada, and I've been commuting 20KM (one way) since March. It has been about 0C (32F) average for about a month. I've used cycling shoes (both road and MTB shoes) with wool socks, neoprene socks over the wool socks, and thick shoe covers. When it gets cold out (my idea of cold is -5C), I add chemical warmers. The chemical warmers are the thing that keeps the toes from freezing - even on 3 hour rides at -5C (which I did a few times last winter).

I picked up NorthWave Celcius Arctic boots two weeks ago after eyeing them for about a year and I would never go back to the crap I used before. There this is nothing like strapping the boots on and going. They are waterproof (which I tested) and very warm. Of course, the true test will come when it gets to -10C out in February. I suspect chemical warmers will still be required on longer rides or when it gets blistery cold out.

Northwave stuff is hard to fine in N/A (or at least in Canada). I got my from the UK:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=57565

I am a 46 normally and a 46 in these boots fit perfectly and included enough space for thick socks (ie they appear to be sized large).

Hope that helps.

Mark

I asked this same question a few weeks ago and Machka came back with his reply and his website on winter cycling.

Bikeh, you might like to know that Machka is a pretty young woman, not a bloke.

Now, back to topic.

Some SPD shoes keep the metal cleat really close to your foot. If the OP's shoes are like this, then the heat will be sucked out of their foot. They need to insulate their foot from the cleat - even some cardboard would help. Loose shoes, as suggested, wool socks and some sort of windproof overboot. I use SPD sandals with wool socks and neoprene overboot down to -15Celcius.

When I use my cycling shoes in the winter I take bunches of paper towel and ductape them to my shoes. Paper towels = insulation, ductape = wind/water proof. I use bright purple ductape so that people notice my awesome idea :lol:.

Layers, layers, layers. And if you are still "clipping in" that could be a part of the problem. I use platforms all year long and I don't "clip in"....EVER. But I have seen the shoes and, frankly, they don't appear to be winter worthy.



Tried that. Finally said screw it and went to platform pedals with insulated boots. It made life a whole lot easier......and warmer.

I think I agree with this. Been riding in the 30's for 2 months now and my hiking boots are awesome, but my new clipless shoes are like heat sinks, they siphon the heat out of my body. Will be switching to platforms again perhaps next week, as this week we've gotten a respite and the temperature is back in the 50's.

chemical toe warmers between sock liner and sock. on top of toes not under like they recommend.

or the cheaper hand warmers in roomy shoes.

the more expensive warmers work better than the cheap ones

chemical toe warmers can be reused several times if kept in a tight airtight bag when not in use

chemical toe warmers between sock liner and sock. on top of toes not under like they recommend.

or the cheaper hand warmers in roomy shoes.

the more expensive warmers work better than the cheap ones

chemical toe warmers can be reused several times if kept in a tight airtight bag when not in use

If you are wearing SPDs placing the back edge of chem pack over the cleat and forward edge under your toes works best, but polypropylene socks and neoprene booties are by far the best solution in extreme conditions.....

Neoprene booties. Lycra booties will help some, but nothing beats neoprene. You can still use your clipless pedal and walk as normally as you currently do in whatever shoes you use, but cold and wet are severly limited. So much so in fact that I am looking for neoprene-backed gloves.

Tip: In really cold weather you can drop one of the hand warmer packs in the toe area of your shoe as well. They seem to work well for an hour or so.

As for your legs: Pearl Izumi AmFIB tights hand down. They are the best cold weather tights made, bar none.

Neoprene shoe covers are the way to go. The Performance brand is all I've used for nearly 15 years now because I haven't needed to buy any others...they wear like iron.

Amfib tights are the best cold weather tights around (get the bibs for extra heat retention) but be aware that the temperature range is limited. Great tights for 20F and below. They get uncomfortably warm at 30 F and down right sweltering above 40F.


It's been said before but bears repeating. Loose fitting shoes will keep your feet warmer. Too tight and you compress insulation and reduce circulation.

I've heard of people wrapping the foot in aluminum foil (like wrapping a baked potato). I have no idea if this is effective.

One other tip. If your feet are really cold, get of the bike and run with it a few minutes. That should warm up the feet in a hurry.

Paul

Yes, you should run shoe that are a size or two larger in winter. You are using thicker socks and you don't want shoes that cut off circulation.

The aluminum foil isn't use to wrap the foot. I use aluminum foil furnace tape to line the bottom of the shoe to do two things. First, it seals the cleat so that water and, more importantly, cold doesn't infiltrate into the shoe. Second, the aluminum reflects heat back towards the foot. The first reason works very well. I'm a little dubious about the second reason.

I also add fleece insoles from the Vermont Country Store to insult under my foot.


This side is dangerously incorrect. Moisture in any form, even very high humidity, reduces the effectiveness of insulation. Wool is probably the most effective insulation when wet and even that loses over half of its insulating power. Damp cotton is worthless in a cold exposure situation. You are better off naked and dry than wearing a damp cotton shirt. Moisture transmits heat, the exact opposite of what insulation is supposed to do. That's why you can stick you hand into a 140 degree F oven (just don't touch the metal) and it just feels really warm, but the same temperature water will scald you severely in seconds. At 65 degrees air is just cool, swimming in water at the same temperature is downright cold. Trapped dry air is your friend, trapped moisture is not. Fast drying / wicking fabrics are available inexpensively these days as every big box store has their own brand of sportswear. I have several long-sleeve wicking tech t-shirts from Target or Walmart that cost me around $12 each and they make a great base layer to well below freezing. When it gets below zero F I switch to lightweight polypropylene shirt and long johns. Though I've never ridden in -40F or colder weather, my job requires that I be out in those conditions from time to time and the choice there is dual layer undergarments with a polypropylene inner layer and a wool/poly outer layer.

Not quite the whole story. Moisture and moisture management is a fact of life when you are doing aerobic activities. You simply can't stay dry at your skin when you are doing something like bicycling. If you aren't moving around, being dry and warm is more important but when you are exercising, you are generating more heat and being slightly damp isn't that much of a problem. Don't stop moving, however.

Wicking fabrics move the moisture away from your skin but they do trap the moisture in the fabric. If they move the moisture away from your body, they carry heat with them. It's like the swimming analogy you used above. Water has a huge capacity to carry heat. Moving it away from your and out into the air carries a lot of heat with it. That's why you want to wear a wind barrier. It keeps the cold air from taking the moisture away from your body.

I agree with some of the posters here and go with the platforms in winter, also a wicking poly base layer sock and then a wool sock layer will keep you warm

I was in the same boat 7-8 years ago, using spd's and my feet were always cold, switched over and problem solved

wetsuits insulate in scuba diving because they trap a layer of water between you and the neoprene suit, your body warms that layer of water. just thought I'd throw that out there.

wetsuits insulate in scuba diving because they trap a layer of water between you and the neoprene suit, your body warms that layer of water. just thought I'd throw that out there.

Was going to say the same. Leaky waders will stay warm too because the water doesn't flow into and out of the waders. Had lots of experience.

Water has a huge capacity to carry heat. Moving it away from your and out into the air carries a lot of heat with it.

Water, due to its mass, can hold a certain amount of heat, but it also is a very efficient transmitter of heat, meaning that dampness, while it increases the thermal mass of the clothing, defeats its insulating efficiency by increasing its conduction rendering it useless. You need dry insulation to prevent heat loss by conduction and a wind barrier to prevent heat loss by convection. Neoprene works because it has both waterproof and insulating properties reducing both conduction and convection. That's why a neoprene wetsuit works while a polyethylene or other thin plastic suit will not despite that they both trap a layer of moisture against the skin. Without both a barrier against water movement (waterproof) and insulating properties, the water against the skin would quickly cool to the temperature of the surrounding water and you would have a hypothermic diver. The neoprene would work equally as well, if not better, if the skin beneath it was dry. Every winter we pickup up in the ambulance or see in the ER examples of people who work or participate in sport outdoors who become hypothermic and in almost every case cold, damp clothing against the skin is a significant contributor to their condition. I stand by my original statement, water's ability to conduct heat outweights the ability of its mass to hold heat, therefore water (liquid or vapor) is not a beneficial adjuct to insulation and is far inferior to dry trapped air.

Yes, you must deal with perspiration when exercising outdoors. In cold weather, the best way to deal with it is to layer your insulation in such a way that you are comfortably cool but not chilled during the active part of your exercise. Have a layer you can shed as you warm up so that your first line of defense against moisture is controlling how much you produce. Often, when I take off on my bike in cold weather I feel like I should have dressed a little warmer but within 15 minutes I'm very comfortable but not sweaty. When I get home an hour or more later, my base layer is just slightly damp and the rest of my layers almost completely dry. The amount you sweat is not an indicator of the effectiveness of your workout. The limited amount of moisture you do produce should be wicked away from your skin and through your insulating layers. Your wind barrier should control, not completely block airflow. For riding and other fast motion sports, gear that has wind blocking front panels and breathable GoreTex or similar back panels is ideal. It allows just enough air flow to provide moisture control while minimizing convection effects on your insulating layers.

Water, due to its mass, can hold a certain amount of heat, but it also is a very efficient transmitter of heat, meaning that dampness, while it increases the thermal mass of the clothing, defeats its insulating efficiency by increasing its conduction rendering it useless. You need dry insulation to prevent heat loss by conduction and a wind barrier to prevent heat loss by convection. Neoprene works because it has both waterproof and insulating properties reducing both conduction and convection. That's why a neoprene wetsuit works while a polyethylene or other thin plastic suit will not despite that they both trap a layer of moisture against the skin. Without both a barrier against water movement (waterproof) and insulating properties, the water against the skin would quickly cool to the temperature of the surrounding water and you would have a hypothermic diver. The neoprene would work equally as well, if not better, if the skin beneath it was dry. Every winter we pickup up in the ambulance or see in the ER examples of people who work or participate in sport outdoors who become hypothermic and in almost every case cold, damp clothing against the skin is a significant contributor to their condition. I stand by my original statement, water's ability to conduct heat outweights the ability of its mass to hold heat, therefore water (liquid or vapor) is not a beneficial adjuct to insulation and is far inferior to dry trapped air.

Yes, you must deal with perspiration when exercising outdoors. In cold weather, the best way to deal with it is to layer your insulation in such a way that you are comfortably cool but not chilled during the active part of your exercise. Have a layer you can shed as you warm up so that your first line of defense against moisture is controlling how much you produce. Often, when I take off on my bike in cold weather I feel like I should have dressed a little warmer but within 15 minutes I'm very comfortable but not sweaty. When I get home an hour or more later, my base layer is just slightly damp and the rest of my layers almost completely dry. The amount you sweat is not an indicator of the effectiveness of your workout. The limited amount of moisture you do produce should be wicked away from your skin and through your insulating layers. Your wind barrier should control, not completely block airflow. For riding and other fast motion sports, gear that has wind blocking front panels and breathable GoreTex or similar back panels is ideal. It allows just enough air flow to provide moisture control while minimizing convection effects on your insulating layers.

There is absolutely no way you are going to attain dry insulation while exercising. Can't do it, not if you are working at any sustained aerobic level. The human body is a very efficient sweat machine. The best that you can hope for is that the insulation that you use doesn't cool too much when damp.

You are correct that heat loss is due to both conduction and convection. If you conduct too much of the water that you produce by sweating towards the outside of your insulation layers and then convect it away, you are going to be in trouble. The water that you produce...and the amount varies from person to person...is best kept close to you rather than conducted out to the outer layers and convected out into the environment. Essentially, you are trying to heat up the world outside of your person that way and you simply can't do that.

You may not be sweaty during the active part of your exercise but many of us are. I am always sweaty...winter, spring, summer and fall...when I exercise. Many can get away with wearing street clothes to ride to work but I'm not one of them. I can't ride 2 miles without starting to sweat in large quantities. There's nothing wrong with that as it's just the way I am. But I have also learned how to deal with it and stay warm. I do it by trapping the heat that my sweat carries with it within the layers of my insulation and I avoid using fabrics that chill when they get wet. My inner layers are not just damp, they are wet. My mid layers are damp and my outer layers are dampish. Sometimes, depending on the jacket I wear, I can have actual beads of moisture under the jacket. But I've kept the water...and the heat it carries...from convecting out into the air and have thus retained my heat.

By the way, I never have liked GoreTex and other 'breathable' fabrics. I don't find them all that breathable, just like I don't find 'wicking' fabric to be all that wicking. I overwhelm both because of my sweat production. GoreTex, for me, just ends up being about as effective as urethane coated nylon.

True, some people sweat more than others. From what I've noticed out riding and in the gym, I seem to be about average (used to sweat a lot more when I was heavier so I know where you are coming from). If you are perspiring to the point of soaking your inner layer and having your midlayer quite damp, I suggest you may be overinsulated, try dressing a bit lighter or have a layer you can shed as you warm up. See if that doesn't reduce the amount you perspire. You are correct that with enough work you can create sufficient heat to keep damp clothing warm, the problem arises when you get tired, the wind picks up, the sun gets covered by clouds, a cold front comes through, you have a break down and have to walk, etc and suddenly you can't produce enough heat to keep up. Now with damp to wet insulation you are screwed. I have heard the arguments to the contrary before, usually from some guy who is now begging me for more hot packs and warm blankets.

If you are perspiring that is a sign that your core temperature is plenty warm and with dry insulation, it will stay that way even if you stop working.

But I've kept the water...and the heat it carries...from convecting out into the air and have thus retained my heat.
Heavy perspiration is a sign that you are overheating and should do something about it. IMHO it is best to concentrate on keeping vulnerable areas like fingers, toes, ears and nose safely warm and to keep your core at a comfortable temperature protected by efficient, dry insulation. Believe as you wish but I hope you always make it home safely and never get caught out in the cold with wet clothing due to breakdown, injury, illness, exhaustion, sudden change in weather or road conditions, etc.

Stay safe and good riding.

True, some people sweat more than others. From what I've noticed out riding and in the gym, I seem to be about average (used to sweat a lot more when I was heavier so I know where you are coming from). If you are perspiring to the point of soaking your inner layer and having your midlayer quite damp, I suggest you may be overinsulated, try dressing a bit lighter or have a layer you can shed as you warm up. See if that doesn't reduce the amount you perspire. You are correct that with enough work you can create sufficient heat to keep damp clothing warm, the problem arises when you get tired, the wind picks up, the sun gets covered by clouds, a cold front comes through, you have a break down and have to walk, etc and suddenly you can't produce enough heat to keep up. Now with damp to wet insulation you are screwed. I have heard the arguments to the contrary before, usually from some guy who is now begging me for more hot packs and warm blankets.

This ain't my first rodeo. What you don't seem to get is that no matter what I do, no matter how few clothes I wear, no matter the temperature, I will perspire in prodigious amounts when I ride my bike (or any exercise for that matter). I happen to know how to deal with the problem because I've been doing this for more years than I care to count. I know all about what happens when you stop moving which is way I seldom stop moving once I have started.

Most of my riding is at night during the winter time so the sun isn't in the equation.


If you are perspiring that is a sign that your core temperature is plenty warm and with dry insulation, it will stay that way even if you stop working.

You are just repeating yourself and not understanding the issue.


Heavy perspiration is a sign that you are overheating and should do something about it. IMHO it is best to concentrate on keeping vulnerable areas like fingers, toes, ears and nose safely warm and to keep your core at a comfortable temperature protected by efficient, dry insulation. Believe as you wish but I hope you always make it home safely and never get caught out in the cold with wet clothing due to breakdown, injury, illness, exhaustion, sudden change in weather or road conditions, etc.

Stay safe and good riding.

No. Heavy perspiration is a sign that I am working. And I have done something about it. I have worked out my own method of retaining heat by blocking heat loss. I know all about dressing cooler than most people normal would. But there is only so 'cool' you can go. If I followed your advice and kept myself cold enough so that I wouldn't sweat, I'd definitely be in trouble because I'd have to wear what I wear in the summer at 0F.

I wear tech fabrics and wools that insulate when wet. But the operative word is wet. Any article of clothing I wear is going to be wet to damp. I make sure they are dry before I go out in the cold (I actually hang my clothes to dry when I get to work in the morning) but I know that they will be wet by the time I get home or to work.

I do understand that everyone is different and what works for most doesn't work for everyone. It appears you have found what works for you and that you had already tried some of my suggestions. I do understand your problem as when I was younger and much heavier people would joke that I was the only person they had ever seen crack a sweat wearing a t-shirt in a blizzard. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just concerned. This is not my first rodeo either as I have lived in northern North Dakota and Minnesota for my entire 46 years and have worked in emergency medical services and rescue for the past 20+. I've treated hundreds of cases of hypothermia from mild to severe and usually see a death or two each year where hypothermia was the direct cause and more where hypothermia was a contributing factor. Speaking in general, not about your specific case, Wet + Cold = Bad. Given identical cold environments a person with damp to wet clothing is at increased risk of developing hypothermia compared to the same person wearing the same clothing dry.

I wish you well and hope you stay safe and warm.

Water, due to its mass, can hold a certain amount of heat, but it also is a very efficient transmitter of heat, meaning that dampness, while it increases the thermal mass of the clothing, defeats its insulating efficiency by increasing its conduction rendering it useless. You need dry insulation to prevent heat loss by conduction and a wind barrier to prevent heat loss by convection......... ........the water against the skin would quickly cool to the temperature of the surrounding water and you would have a hypothermic diver. The neoprene would work equally as well, if not better, if the skin beneath it was dry...... ......The amount you sweat is not an indicator of the effectiveness of your workout. The limited amount of moisture you do produce should be wicked away from your skin and through your insulating layers. Your wind barrier should control, not completely block airflow. For riding and other fast motion sports, gear that has wind blocking front panels and breathable GoreTex or similar back panels is ideal. It allows just enough air flow to provide moisture control while minimizing convection effects on your insulating layers.

I agree with you completely regarding the need to wick the moisture away from the skin to eliminate the uncontrolled transfer of heat away from your body in cold weather conditions. Without maintaining this dry layer, core body heat is lost through uncontrolled conduction and the body has to work even harder to maintain an acceptable core temperature. Once the sweat has been wicked to the outer layer, convection will provide the required cooling that the body needs through the fabics, but without the uncontrolled heat transfer through the moisture. This allows us to better regulate the cooling that we require by adding or removing layers.



wetsuits insulate in scuba diving because they trap a layer of water between you and the neoprene suit, your body warms that layer of water. just thought I'd throw that out there.

Rumrunn6, I find the wetsuit analogy to be misleading and moot. Yes the thin layer of water next to the skin insulates the submerged body and maintains your core temperature, but only because the neoprene layer is insulating that moisture from the surroundind water's cooler temperature. This fact is clearly understood by divers who dive in extremely cold waters as they will wear "dry suits" rather than "wet suits" because the neoprene insulation has surpassed it insulative capabilities and the result of diving in these extremely cold waters in a "wet suit" would result in excessive body heat loss.

Additionally, although the water is far more efficient at tranferring heat than air, the neoprene layer virtually eliminates any convection, so the cooling that the body requires is entirely dependant on the surrounding water temperature rather than heat exchange through evaporation. And finally, In my experience anyway, diving generally does not produce the sustained high levels of aerobic and anaerobic activity over the same time frame as cycling. The lower work effort produces less body heat, requiring less conduction or convetion to maintain a consistant core body temperature.

I agree with you completely regarding the need to wick the moisture away from the skin to eliminate the uncontrolled transfer of heat away from your body in cold weather conditions. Without maintaining this dry layer, core body heat is lost through uncontrolled conduction and the body has to work even harder to maintain an acceptable core temperature. Once the sweat has been wicked to the outer layer, convection will provide the required cooling that the body needs through the fabics, but without the uncontrolled heat transfer through the moisture. This allows us to better regulate the cooling that we require by adding or removing layers.

Next time you are out riding...and sweating...do an honest assessment of the layer of clothing next to your skin. It will not be 'dry'. It will be damp to wet and probably wetter in some areas than in others. Certainly some of the sweat that you produce is going to move outward away from your body but not enough to keep the layer next to your skin 'dry'. Remember that you are constantly producing sweat at the skin.

Outer layers serve more to act as a reservoir to absorb excess sweat than as a transport mechanism. In fact, if the outer layers are too efficient at transporting the water to the outside of your clothing and getting rid of it, you'd be in more danger of hypothermia than if you retain the moisture. Think of what happens if you don't wear a wind barrier. When someone says 'the wind cuts right through you', they are really saying that they are losing too much heat from evaporative cooling.



Rumrunn6, I find the wetsuit analogy to be misleading and moot. Yes the thin layer of water next to the skin insulates the submerged body and maintains your core temperature, but only because the neoprene layer is insulating that moisture from the surroundind water's cooler temperature. This fact is clearly understood by divers who dive in extremely cold waters as they will wear "dry suits" rather than "wet suits" because the neoprene insulation has surpassed it insulative capabilities and the result of diving in these extremely cold waters in a "wet suit" would result in excessive body heat loss.

Additionally, although the water is far more efficient at tranferring heat than air, the neoprene layer virtually eliminates any convection, so the cooling that the body requires is entirely dependant on the surrounding water temperature rather than heat exchange through evaporation. And finally, In my experience anyway, diving generally does not produce the sustained high levels of aerobic and anaerobic activity over the same time frame as cycling. The lower work effort produces less body heat, requiring less conduction or convetion to maintain a consistant core body temperature.

To get the discussion back to cold feet, Rumrunn6 is spot on with his wet suit analogy. The reason that neoprene shoe covers work so very well for insulating feet is because they trap the heat...and the sweat...at the foot. There is no possibility of evaporative cooling because the foot is insulated and there is no convective cooling. Conduction of the sweat isn't the problem, it's the convection of the sweat that makes you colder.

Thermodynamically, there is a reason for this. Converting any material from one state to another either takes heat or gives up heat. When water condenses (think a glass of ice water on a hot summer day), it gives up heat to the surroundings. When water melts, it takes heat from the surroundings. When water evaporates, it takes heat from its surroundings go from the liquid phase to the vapor phase. If you were to try to get rid of all the sweat you make while riding by evaporating all of it away from you, you would be giving up a huge heat load. You want to give up some of it so that you don't get too hot but you want a balance between giving up too much (as in absolutely dry clothing) and retaining too much (dripping wet clothing). Because your feet are your extremities, you can tolerate retaining much more heat (and water) than you could probably tolerate at your core. This is because your body is already shunting heat away from your extremities in cold weather to keep the core temperature higher.

Cyccommute, we will simply have to agree to disagree. Almost everything that you have stated flies in the face of 30 years of personal experience, the many years of experience of my mentors, trainers, and climbing/riding partners, as well as just about any reasonable scientific authority that I have studied. I will continue to wear a "wicking" layer as a base layer, a thermal insulation layer as a mid layer, and a windproof layer on top. Please continue to wear what you want as well, but I suggest that everyone else do some research using "qualified experts" as resources rather than an Internet forum posting.....

... any reasonable scientific authority that I have studied...

Could you cite some of this scientific authority that you have studied? I find cyccommute's analysis of thermodynamics compelling. I don't think that your clothing scheme is in disagreement with thermodynamics. You have just described several layers of insulation that serve different functions as you transition from high inner temps to the low outside temperature.

Your shoes need to be big enough to allow for good blood circulation, and for your insulating layer to do it's job.

VERY important point. Especially when you're wearing thicker wool socks. Loosen up those straps.

I've been riding in weather down to 20F this year in my regular summer shoes with the vents taped up inside, and Defeet Woolie Boolie socks. Feet get a little chilly at night when it's 20F but otherwise they're fine. You would be surprised how just a bit too much constriction in the toe box can affect circulation and thus foot warmth.

Under 20F I add neoprene booties. When it gets down to 0F or thereabouts, I add chemical warmers.

Another thing is that if you have problems with "hot spots" in your shoes, your circulation is being restricted in certain areas of the foot as well. If you have pronation or supination (tilting) in the foot and haven't corrected it with wedges or angled insoles, your feet will get cold quickly because more pressure is on one side of the foot than the other.

Cyccommute, we will simply have to agree to disagree. Almost everything that you have stated flies in the face of 30 years of personal experience, the many years of experience of my mentors, trainers, and climbing/riding partners, as well as just about any reasonable scientific authority that I have studied. I will continue to wear a "wicking" layer as a base layer, a thermal insulation layer as a mid layer, and a windproof layer on top. Please continue to wear what you want as well, but I suggest that everyone else do some research using "qualified experts" as resources rather than an Internet forum posting.....

I'm not suggesting anything different from what you are using and I use the same thing. However, I realize that the 'wicking layer' works by wicking the moisture from my body into the other layers but not out into the environment. That's what I've been trying to point out to Myosmith. It's not about keeping 'dry' at your skin...something that is next to impossible because your body is always making moisture...but about moving the moisture around without losing the heat it contains. The mid and outer layers (up to the wind barrier) are there to absorb the sweat you produce. They aren't there to transport the moisture away from your body so much as to trap it.

Next time you are out riding...and sweating...do an honest assessment of the layer of clothing next to your skin. It will not be 'dry'. It will be damp to wet and probably wetter in some areas than in others.

I rode last evening for an hour and a half ending shortly after sundown. 13F dropped to 10F during that time with a 5-10 mph wind combined with an average speed of 15 mph (recovery ride after riding hard yesterday when it was warmer) for a windchill from 0F to -10F depending on my direction of travel. On top I was wearing a tech fabric base layer with a 50/50 poly/cotton T-shirt over it followed by a tech fabric hoodie designed for cold weather joggers (the hood is just big enough to pull over my helmet to reduce the airflow through the vents. I skipped the windproof shell in favor of a fleece vest over the hoodie. Under my helmet was thin helmet liner style balcava. My hands were protected by Thinsulate mittens over wool liners. From the waist down I had poly/cotton athletic trunk-style underwear under a polypropylene base layer and denim jeans. I wore poly/cotton socks covered by merino wool blend socks in leather ankle high boots. When I got home I peeled the layers. The vest was bone dry, the hoodie was bone dry. The t-shirt and base layer were just barely damp in the armpits and center of my back, the front and arms were dry. The balcava was damp in front of my mouth and nose and where it was pinned between my helmet pads and my head. The top, ear area, and neck were dry. My inner socks were slightly damp, the wool socks felt dry (my feet were the first to get cold). My long johns and trunks were slightly damp from the mid-thigh up and at the waistband. The wool liners of my gloves were slightly damp over the palms.

I felt cool to slightly chilled on my arms, torso and top of my head when I first set out but warmed up nicely within 15 minutes. Toward the end of my ride, my feet were getting uncomfortably cool and my fingertips were getting cold (I have cold hands on a good day). That's my personal idea of good moisture and temperature control, far from having a soaked inner layer and wet midlayer.

Before anyone asks, yesterday at 40+F and 20-25 mph wind, I skipped the vest and t-shirt but wore my windproof shell. The balcava was replaced with a knit skull cap that covered my ears and I had a light tech fabric baselayer instead of the polypropylene long johns. I came home with my base layer slightly damper than today but nowhere near soaked and my midlayer was still bone dry except in the arm pits. I could have fine tuned my layers a bit more and probably been dryer, but it wasn't that cold out and I was more concerned about getting in a good workout doing two-mile intervals into and with the wind.


Stay safe and ride hard everyone.

Could you cite some of this scientific authority that you have studied?

I can't speak for Stealthhammer, but how about:

The U.S. Marine Corps Cold Weather Medicine Survival Course, Training and Skills
The Rocky Mountain Search and Rescue Group
The U.S. National Search and Rescue Committee
Robert "Papa Bear" Whitmore (author of the Art of Survival, Founder of the Wilderness Survival Institute, and advisor to the Alaskan oil industry and the US military for 30 years)
The Boulder Outdoor Survival School
The Mayo Medical Group of Rochester MN
St. Mary's Medical Center of Duluth MN
Colorado Mountain Club Wilderness Survival School of Denver
Soldier’s Handbook For Individual Operations and Survival in Cold Weather Areas (March 1986); U.S. Army Publication
Minnesota State University
North Dakota State School of Medicine
The Jack Mountain Bushcraft, Guide Training & Wilderness Expedition School
The National Association of Emergency Medical Technicians
The US Library of Medicine
National Institute of Health

All of which/whom list damp or wet clothing as a major factor for increased risk of hypothermia. If you don't think these apply to cycling and similar outdoor sports, here's what LiveStrong.com has to say:


Dressing in loose layers is essential to cold weather survival. When choosing clothes, synthetic fibers are preferable to cotton, which absorbs more moisture. Having multiple layers keeps pockets of warm air close to your body, providing natural insulation. Wear only dry clothes, though, and remove excess layers if necessary to avoid sweating during physical exertion.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/118629-list-cold-weather-survival-gear/#ixzz1hq73Tijh



Layers provide options when cycling in the cold if the weather warms up or if you are overdressed. A base layer that wicks sweat and keeps moisture away from the skin and an outer layer protecting from wind and precipitation are necessities.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/3501-need-cold-weather-cycling/



For a biker, cold-weather cycling presents a problem. The intense activity of cycling creates perspiration. If the moisture doesn't have a chance to evaporate away, the biker's clothes will get wet and heavy. It's important to buy cycling clothes made of materials specifically designed to wick moisture away, such as polypropylene.

-

The key to protecting yourself from the cold is layering. Wear an undershirt that wicks away perspiration to prevent your body from losing too much heat to evaporation. Polyester or polypropylene shirts are good options. A sleeveless vest will protect your chest while allowing your arms full range of motion. Choose a cycling jacket that allows moisture to escape but protects you from fierce winds and low temperatures.

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Cold-weather bicycle pants, sometimes called winter tights, are made of breathable fabric that protects you from the cold and allows moisture to escape.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/331315-clothing-for-cold-weather-cycling/#ixzz1hqAgt6SW



For cold-weather biking, dressing in layers is a good idea so you can take off layers as your body warms up. The Oklahoma Bicycle Society lists three layers: base, insulation and outer. The best clothing for any kind of exercise is typically made from breathable fabrics; these keep the body dry and help keep you warm. Cotton clothing retains moisture, which does not allow perspiration to evaporate, making you feel chilled. This is especially important to remember with the base layer, the layer closest to your skin.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/331659-cold-weather-gear-for-bikers/#ixzz1hqDGvyrL

Nowhere does Livestrong advise trapping moisture and keeping it warm.

Now I'm going to agree with Stealthhammer that we should agree to disagree and let this thread die a natural death.

Three words Platform, Platform, Platform. A number of companies make goretex winter sneakers add a pair of wool socks can't be beat for Warmth. Even above ankle goretex sneaker boat. Yes there is a wieght added. Come spring when the stud tires and winter footware come off I'm flyin'. The warmth is worth the extra weight.

best,

Nowhere does Livestrong advise trapping moisture and keeping it warm.


Every article that is linked to...and most other articles about dressing for cold...clearly states to use a wind barrier. The wind barrier is important to keep from losing heat to evaporative cooling.

There is good thermodynamical reasons for protecting yourself from evaporation of the sweat you produce, too. The heat capacity of water is 1 Calorie/kg of water. That means that it takes 1 Calorie (nutritional calorie) to raise the temperature of a kilogram of water 1 degree C. From the stand point of heat conductance, you would be losing 1 Calorie of heat for each kilogram of water that drips off you. I doubt that a prodigious sweat machine like me is going to produce more than 100 to 200 ml per hour. So my heat losses due to conductance are going to be minimal.

However, when you vaporize water, it takes 537 Calories/kg of energy to do so. That's a bunch of energy. For 100 ml of evaporation, that 50 to 100 Calories/hour just to keep up with the evaporation. The other side of the coin is the rate of evaporation. The faster the rate of evaporation, the faster the heat loss. That's why you protect yourself from the wind. That's also what 'wind chill' is all about.

As a competitive cyclist, I can't ride without being clipped in.

I picked up NorthWave Celcius Arctic boots two weeks ago

I'm with him - I gotta be clipped in. I also broke the piggy bank and picked up some NW Celcius Arctic boots and just love them. Surprisingly the cleat doesn't get my foot cold. I haven't had any really cold days since I picked them up but my feet have been toasty...

This will be my last post in this thread as I think we have beaten this to death. Cyccommute, as I mentioned several posts back, I understand that your are in your own words a "prodigious sweat machine". I also understand that a high rate of evaporative cooling will drop body temperature. Evaporative cooling is very effective at reducing temperature, that's why we sweat in the first place, because our body is overheating (therefore we are dressed too warm for the conditions). For most people, not necessarily yourself, the key to controlling evaporative cooling is not to trap moisture but to limit it's production in the first place (also mentioned in several of the articles) by controlling body temperature by tayloring your insulation to both environmental conditions and level of exertion. The purpose of wicking materials is to transport any small amount of perspiration that does occur away from the body to the outside of the insulating layer before it evaporates. Carefully choosing your layers, stripping excess layers when you are getting warm and starting to sweat, and using a wind barrier to control not eliminate evaporation will work for the vast majority of people. You state that this does not work for you, so you have found ways to deal with the cards you were dealt. Fine, no argument, do what you have to do. But for the majority of people, perspiration can be controlled by wearing just enough clothing to remain cool but comfortable at the desired level of exertion. The fact remains that dry insulation is more effective than damp or moist insulation and I cited several credible sources all saying the same thing. Yes, I hear you, honest, if you sweat buckets and then evaporate it all through your insulation you will be cold, but, if you sweat very little and evaporate just enough to maintain the optimum R-value of your insulation you will stay safe and comfortable.

I'm finished and urge anyone else reading this to seek out information from reputable authorities on the subject and makeup their own minds. Rebut if you wish. I harbor no hard feelings and value your right to your own opinion. Then please, let's agree to disagree and move on.

This will be my last post in this thread as I think we have beaten this to death. Cyccommute, as I mentioned several posts back, I understand that your are in your own words a "prodigious sweat machine". I also understand that a high rate of evaporative cooling will drop body temperature. Evaporative cooling is very effective at reducing temperature, that's why we sweat in the first place, because our body is overheating (therefore we are dressed too warm for the conditions). For most people, not necessarily yourself, the key to controlling evaporative cooling is not to trap moisture but to limit it's production in the first place (also mentioned in several of the articles) by controlling body temperature by tayloring your insulation to both environmental conditions and level of exertion. The purpose of wicking materials is to transport any small amount of perspiration that does occur away from the body to the outside of the insulating layer before it evaporates. Carefully choosing your layers, stripping excess layers when you are getting warm and starting to sweat, and using a wind barrier to control not eliminate evaporation will work for the vast majority of people. You state that this does not work for you, so you have found ways to deal with the cards you were dealt. Fine, no argument, do what you have to do. But for the majority of people, perspiration can be controlled by wearing just enough clothing to remain cool but comfortable at the desired level of exertion. The fact remains that dry insulation is more effective than damp or moist insulation and I cited several credible sources all saying the same thing. Yes, I hear you, honest, if you sweat buckets and then evaporate it all through your insulation you will be cold, but, if you sweat very little and evaporate just enough to maintain the optimum R-value of your insulation you will stay safe and comfortable.

I'm finished and urge anyone else reading this to seek out information from reputable authorities on the subject and makeup their own minds. Rebut if you wish. I harbor no hard feelings and value your right to your own opinion. Then please, let's agree to disagree and move on.

First, a correction. I should have looked it up first but an exercising human perspires at a rate of 0.8 to 1.4L/hour. Simply walking around we sweat at a rate of 0.25 to 0.5L of water per hour. That's a lot more than I originally thought.

Since my thermodynamic discussion above can be a little confusing, I'll put it in simpler terms. If you are simply walking around and you want to evaporate all that water to remain 'dry', you'll lose 140 to 270 Calories per hour in heat. That's the equivalent of 2 to 4 slices of Wonder Bread. If you ramp up the intensity and start to hit the higher rate and you want to get rid of all that sweat you are going to lose 432 Calories to 760 Calories of heat. On the low end, that's the heat equivalent of a 12" Subway Turkey Breast sandwich (without cheese). On the high end, that's a 12" and a 6". That's a lot of heat and it's all through evaporation.

If you are going to stand around and not be active, keeping your clothing dry isn't going to be too hard. But when you start to exercise, you can't keep your clothing dry and you can't afford to lose all that heat through evaporative cooling.