Fifty Plus (50+) - Do cycling shoes improve your avg speed by at least 1mph?

Just wondering... My speed is less than 15mph on avg. and I am hopeing going from Nike training shoes to a good pair of cycling shoes would improve my effeciency by at least 1mph. I'm kinda believing the hype about carbon bikes being faster and so forth. Can't afford a new bike right now, but I could upgrade my shoes...;)

I'd think that clipping in would be worth at least 1 mph average to most people. From when I started 2 years ago with a big box store Schwinn hybrid to now with a Bianchi road bike with upgraded wheels and 105 components, probably shoes and pedals were the single biggest.

I think that the thing that slows you down the most is wind resistance, by a LONG shot. Therefore, look for ways to reduce it. Getting your bike adjusted (and your body adapted) so that you can get in the right position for lowest wind resistance is liable to make the biggest difference, and it's free.

Decent road shoes and clipless pedals will increase your speed by at least 2 mph. I guarantee it. ;)

I won't stray into quantifying but a lot of little improvements (like shoes and clipless pedals) will add up. Having said that reducing your resistance against those pesky air molecules by adjusting your posture makes for the biggest improvement.

If speed is the most important aspect of cycling to you, then go for it.

I must confess, however, that I still don't understand how something you "clip into" and "clip out of" can be considered "clipless."

Don't know, but if you ride longer distances and have good bike shoes, you're less likely to get hot spots.

For higher speed, increase your cadence (rpms).

I must confess, however, that I still don't understand how something you "clip into" and "clip out of" can be considered "clipless."
Clipless refers to the lack of clips (as in the clips and straps that used to be the norm).

If speed is the most important aspect of cycling to you, then go for it.

I must confess, however, that I still don't understand how something you "clip into" and "clip out of" can be considered "clipless."

If you had ridden twenty plus years with "toe clips" and straps and no other option secured , you wouldn't care what they called them.

BTW: "Clipless" pedals have cleats and traps, not clips......

Going for clipless cycling shoes will make a measurable difference providing you're clipped in and learn to 'pull up with one as you're pushing down with the other'. The shoes themselves, although they are a bit narrower than sneakers, won't make that much of a difference in wind resistance. Using any cycling shoes, including ones without clips, will make your feet very happy, as they are rigid on the bottom where your foot meets the pedal, and consequentially reduces the discomfort of hot and sore feet.

Teachme Hi,
I have Toured and Road Raced and Track Raced on and off for close to Fifty years and I have always used Toe Clips and Straps I do not think your shoe change will lift your speed. Your overall Fitness is the only factor that will lift your speed plus you must be sitting right on your Bike.
Cheers Ian

I think that buying new stuff always increases your speed - but only until the newness wears off!!! Then you have to buy something else.

Does anyone have any science about clipless and speed advantage? I recall reading somewhere that elite riders do not actually "pull up" on the pedals. But I could be remembering wrong.

Does anyone have any science about clipless and speed advantage? I recall reading somewhere that elite riders do not actually "pull up" on the pedals. But I could be remembering wrong.

I have read mixed refiews of the "pulling up" argument. I wish I could remember where. I believe Sheldon was not in favor.

[EDIT]

Reviewing Sheldon's stuff, it was more likely he was debunking "ankling" rather than "pulling up."

But, I know I have read articles about "pulling up" that were not positive.

Perhaps Jobst? I'll check around.

Being attached to your pedals allows you to accelerate faster, and allows you to climb very steep hills more quickly. But in general, it won't make you any faster, because in general, you aren't pulling up with every pedal stroke. Even top racers aren't doing any more than "lightening up" on the pedals during the rearward/upward phase of the stroke, except when making near-maximum efforts.

So the short answer, I think, is that if you spend a lot of time accelerating and climbing short, steep hills, then clipless (or clips and straps, which still work just fine) will increase your average speed. But if you spend most of your time cruising the flats and/or mildly hilly country, then being attached to your pedals won't do much at all for your speed.

For myself, FWIW, average speed isn't that important. I use clipless (and clips/straps, on some bikes) because they locate my feet on the pedals correctly (so I don't have to think about it) and keep my feet from flying off on rough roads.

Here is an article of interest:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807

Clipless pedals can help improve pedaling efficiency and speed. Guaranteed to keep your foot affixed to the pedal. Most of the time.
Same can be said of using toe clips or Power Grips on pedals, too.
I prefer clipless pedals.

I am slow when riding with street shoes but that's likely because after so many miles riding clipless I don't know how to pedal efficiently any other way.

"Pulling up" on the upstroke is not the whole picture. The idea is to pedal circles. You can pedal circles with clipless pedals and to a lesser extent with old fashioned clips or baskets, but not with platform pedals.

THe aim is to get some power throughout the stroke- when your foot is coming over the top and moving backwards at the bottom, as well as in the up and down strokes. Clipless pedals are a huge help to this, but you don't get all of the advantage the day you first put them on - you have to slowly modify your technique.

THere are particular situations when pulling on the upstroke with clipless pedas is unquestionably and immediately faster than platforms. For example, standing up to power over a short steep hill or to get a quick acceleration.

I don't think you can quantify the net improvement of a pedal system (or a different wheel, etc.) on one's average speed. As someone already said, it's many things all put together that gradually make us faster. Most of all, it's training and gaining strength. Secondarily, it's technique. Clipless pedals definitely facilitate improved technique.

Cycling shoes and pedals will be a lot more comfortable than trainers.

You will also be faster with cycling shoes and pedals. You can get traditional toe clips and straps, or clipless. Cycling shoes for toe clips have a cleat with a slot that hooks on the pedal. Clipless pedals are both safer and more comfortable. With clips and straps you can either leave the strap loose in which case you can pull your foot out readily for stops but it will also pull out during sprints and standing on climbs. Or you can tighten the strap to keep the foot from pulling out (it used to be easy to know when a city limits sprint was coming up on a group ride because riders would tighten their toe straps) but then you would forget to loosen them and fall over at the next stop light when you couldn't get a foot out. Clipless pedals don't have that problem. With the toe straps tightened to keep your feet from coming out, your toes eventually go numb.

Here is an article of interest:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807

Interesting. From the abstract I am not sure that I understand the difference between the clipless and the pedals with the feedback.

But there's something else....

Clipping in produces that wonderful feeling of being at one with the bicycle.

Flesh and frame become part of the same machine.

It's really only with clipless that cycling feels like flying.

Teachme - we know that you are new to this addictive world of dedicated cycling, but if you really want to have the whole experience......clipless.

As to your dissatisfaction with your speeds, it won't really be the pedals. You just haven't put in enough miles or enough hard miles yet.

Thanks to all for the good advice! Clipless will definitely be my next upgrade, along with more quality training.

"Even top racers aren't doing any more than "lightening up" on the pedals during the rearward/upward phase of the stroke, except when making near-maximum efforts."
You said it better than me....I only pull up with any amount of force while clipped in when I'm standing and pumping hard uphill, otherwise only "lightening up" as "Six jours" stated. I didn't mean to mislead anyone into thinking you should try to 'pull up' with any force as you're cycling along normally. You would over work your Achilles tendon, and tire out quickly.

Just wondering... My speed is less than 15mph on avg. and I am hopeing going from Nike training shoes to a good pair of cycling shoes would improve my effeciency by at least 1mph. I'm kinda believing the hype about carbon bikes being faster and so forth. Can't afford a new bike right now, but I could upgrade my shoes...;)

It could possibly improve things a little, however the biggest upgrade for the lowest cost is to work on the engine. Nearly every piece of racing equipment was designed to give that tiny fraction of improvement, when two riders are pretty evenly matched for engine performance. Yes the shoes might give you 1MPH, but if you train the engine to turn the pedals faster, you can gain more then 1MPH....

Teachme,

I know that you have posted before about doing spinning classes so that should help you out with maintaining a faster cadence, but now start doing intervals. There are various articles on how to successfully do intervals during training but I think you will need to take a little from each and come up with something that works for you.

My fitter, who was a state level CAT4 racer, gave me some exercises to do when riding on the trainer. One was spinning, one was intervals and another was single legged pedaling. This exercise really doesn't do that much for your speed, but it does build up the muscles needed for pushing up when climbing or sprinting off the saddle. It also improves your complete pedal stroke in that it teaches you to pedal in an even and steady full circled stroke. It's more for improving efficiency than speed but I'm told that efficiency can be directly related to speed. I'm not a speed demon or speed freak nor the fastest person on my cycling team, but some of what he told me did help me get to a very comfortable riding speed (mostly due to the intervals) that I can maintain throughout my ride. You will need to be clipped in for the single legged exercises as your foot tends to come out of pedals with clips when on the back stroke pulling up and are impossible to do with platforms. This, along with some other types of training, will help build up the engine.

As for clipless systems making you faster, I can't comment. I ride clipless the majority of the time and I can really tell the difference in my riding efficiency between riding clipless and riding on my platform adaptors with regular shoes.

I am making the assumption you are using traditional toe clips now. If so, switching to cycling shoes and clipless pedals will make spinning easier for you, which should increase your speed.

I wear mountain shoes (Shimano M 076) with Shimano M520 pedals. I dont race, and they are easier to walk in off the bike, such as at sag stops and coffee stops. After you get used to clipless pedals, I think you will find them much easier to ride with than the traditional toe clips, especially at stop signs and lights.

Just wondering... My speed is less than 15mph on avg. and I am hopeing going from Nike training shoes to a good pair of cycling shoes would improve my effeciency by at least 1mph. I'm kinda believing the hype about carbon bikes being faster and so forth. Can't afford a new bike right now, but I could upgrade my shoes...;)

Is it just shoes or shoes and clipless?

Lots of hype about lots of things on bikes- CF.--Better Wheels--Going clipless------- Some work for some people and some doesn't

CF. and I wonder--But lightweight CF and a body that can take riding with your head between your knees will. Wheels and Better wheels over OM will give you better lines at speed and especially on the curves downhill. BUT Clipless-They will make you one with the bike and some of us- me included- cannot ride a bike with effort unless we are clipped in. It enables you to put effort in for longer on the circular pedal stroke and even to put effort in on the complete stroke once accomplished. So top speed should go up but so will sales in sticking plaster.

So contact MadMax for the entry form for Club Tombay.

There is no reason to think that you will go faster because of clipless. You still have to turn crank arms with your legs. The faster you turn them the faster you will go. I don't see how being cleated in effects your cadence. As for the "pulling up" argument, who does this on a regular basis? I believe that racers don't even do this. Why would a recreational cyclist do this? Anyway, good luck however you go.

teachme, Cycling shoes with stiff carbon soles are primarily for providing a large platform on a small pedal. This will help prevent hotspots and aches.

If you use the techniques available with any style of shoe/pedal attachment system (various clipless designs or toe clips) you'll be more efficient and thus faster, but I couldn't tell you by how much. I started off with toe clips and it wasn't a natural technique for me and it took awhile for the technique to become second nature. In the cruising mode the down pedal's foot acts like it's scraping mud off the shoe's sole to help transition through the 'dead zone', in the acceleration mode you also pull up from the bottom.

Brad

... As for the "pulling up" argument, who does this on a regular basis? ...


I do. Not all the time while pedaling but fairly often, particularly during very hard efforts while standing. Pros certainly do, perhaps not all the time but on regular occasion and certainly while sprinting. Pros came up with and adopted clips and cleats a long time ago. "Clipless" systems nowadays perform the same riding function, attaching the foot to the pedal. Even in riding where you need to ride on rough terrain, need put your foot down, and even regularly dismount, as in cyclocross and mtbing, riders use them rather than ride unattached to the pedals.

This should be referred to as BF Question #3 where #1 is "What bike is better; Trek n.n or x?" and #2 "What tire is better?"

If you're running get running shoes. If you're skiing get ski boots. If you're cycling get cycling shoes. Entry level shoes and pedals will cost less than a pair of decent tires so why not?

I bought mk1 Speedplays before the letter X was even invented. I lost count of how many tens of thousands of kilometres I've put on them. Cycling shoes will last a long time. A friend of mine just replaced 20 year old Sidi's (the first cycling shoe to have a ratcheting buckle). Your running shoes in clips are not going to last nearly that long. If you are planning for the long haul you will get your money's worth from them ten fold.

So aside from looking like a cyclist will you go go faster? Whether you pull up on the up stroke or not, or modify your technique or not, you will lengthen your pedal stroke at the top and the bottom of the stroke. Clips will keep your foot in the same position on the pedal every rotation. This must increase efficiency as your foot position should be adjusted for greatest downward force. As the legs do not have to expend energy in positioning the foot, more energy can be applied to the pedal. I don't know if clipless and cycling shoes will make you faster but I am willing to wager that running shoes and platforms make you slower. Anecdotal evidence: I have never been overtaken on a bike by someone in running shoes.

Shoes flex and much cycling shoe technology is applied to reduce that flex and increase contact with the pedal throughout the shoe from the soles, to uppers, to buckles. A running shoe does precisely none of this. When the sole flexes or compresses that is force being applied to air, not the pedals. When the shoe or foot loses contact with the pedal again no force is being applied to the pedal. Is reducing force and efficiency as fast as increasing them?

So aside from specific disciplines such as downhill and free ride mountain biking where clips are detrimental should someone or anyone buy cycling shoes and clipless pedals? IMO, yes! Will it make you faster? I don't know, but it should at the very least make pedaling more efficient and comfortable and in the long run they'll save you money by not wrecking your running shoes.

Worst case you hate them and they give you something to sell on ebay.

Good shoes will improve the experience wether walking, running or cycling--with good cycling shoes more of your effort will go directly to the pedals!

It will for sure improve your endurance and most likely help with speed.

But the most important improvement one can make to a bicycle is using good light wheels not just for speed but also going up hill!

Spinning a high RPM cadence , certainly.. Metaphor of valve float in the motor..

There is no reason to think that you will go faster because of clipless. You still have to turn crank arms with your legs. The faster you turn them the faster you will go. I don't see how being cleated in effects your cadence. As for the "pulling up" argument, who does this on a regular basis? I believe that racers don't even do this. Why would a recreational cyclist do this? Anyway, good luck however you go.

-1?

Having feet connected to the pedal keeps feet from flying off pedal. (I don't care whether it's toe clips or clipless, pace oxymoron.) While the theoretical advantage of pedaling faster (a.k.a. higher cadence) can be debated, my experience is that I can maintain a faster speed for longer with a higher cadence than I can trying to muscle the bike. And let me assure anyone who hasn't experienced it, having your feet fly off your pedals is no fun.

There is no reason to think that you will go faster because of clipless. You still have to turn crank arms with your legs. The faster you turn them the faster you will go. I don't see how being cleated in effects your cadence. As for the "pulling up" argument, who does this on a regular basis? I believe that racers don't even do this. Why would a recreational cyclist do this? Anyway, good luck however you go.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't true. The "pulling up" thing that people keep repeating in this thread is a complete red herring. The distinction isn't about pulling up or not, it's about mashing vs. spinning. You can't spin with platforms and though you can with baskets and straps, it's much more efficient with cleats. You will pardon my confrontational attitude here, but if think wearing cleats is mostly about pulling up, it's probably because you don't know how to spin.

I am really gaining a lot of knowledge on this subject through this thread. Again, thanks to all for the good advice. I currently have been cycling with clips; baskets and straps; straps on the loose. I understand the spinning technique, and recognize the "pulling up" part of it as well. I am very comfortable at 14 to 15 mph with the clips and regular shoes, but my reason for posting this thread was if the clipless system would generate an increase in speed of 1 or 2 miles per hour without more energy spent on my part, I would consider the clipless system well worth it. I am considering doing a ride like Ragbrai or Tour de Rouge which is a six day trip from Houston to New Orleans. The Tour de Rouge demands a minimum of 15 mph througout the ride. Each day is around 80 miles. This is the reason I am seeking a way to increase my mph average without taxing the engine to severly. :)

A main advantage to me to being clipped in is keeping my feet in position. Before my SPD's when using platform pedals it was a constant hassle having to continuously reposition my feet.

Plus, I think some of you are underestimating the effectiveness of lifting the up leg enough to just neutralize pressure. Just sitting in the saddle and one leg resting on a pedal, how much pressure on average through 180 degrees, 10 lbs? Lets say you are biking in the 18-20 mph range with a 90 cadence; how much pressure are you applying with the down leg, 50-60 lbs @90 degrees or thereabouts? Therefore---

Improved speed via cycling shoes. My first answer would be yes. Then I remember PF Flyers in my youth, you remember, they had a red dot on the back. When you wore them, you certainly ran faster, it seemed....

It's hard to say how much speed increase you will get. It depends on how you pedal now and how you pedal when you're used to cycling shoes and pedals. It could be a lot once you're used to it.

I'd definitely do it for comfort though- that's guaranteed. You're going to be a lot slower if your feet are hurting.

Improved speed via cycling shoes. My first answer would be yes. Then I remember PF Flyers in my youth, you remember, they had a red dot on the back. When you wore them, you certainly ran faster, it seemed....

wow - that brings me back....

I am really gaining a lot of knowledge on this subject through this thread. Again, thanks to all for the good advice. I currently have been cycling with clips; baskets and straps; straps on the loose. I understand the spinning technique, and recognize the "pulling up" part of it as well. I am very comfortable at 14 to 15 mph with the clips and regular shoes, but my reason for posting this thread was if the clipless system would generate an increase in speed of 1 or 2 miles per hour without more energy spent on my part, I would consider the clipless system well worth it. I am considering doing a ride like Ragbrai or Tour de Rouge which is a six day trip from Houston to New Orleans. The Tour de Rouge demands a minimum of 15 mph througout the ride. Each day is around 80 miles. This is the reason I am seeking a way to increase my mph average without taxing the engine to severly. :)

Your goal is attainable, but the solution is work, not equipment. You should definitely get cleats, but the key is that you need to up your miles. You just started riding seriously a few months ago, and if you put in the miles, you should be able to get up to 15 MPH average for a flat ride (Houston->NO must be like a pancake, no?). But you are going to have to up those miles. your counter says "1856 miles this year", which I think means in the last 6 months (You started out in May, right?). So that's about 300 miles/month. Everybody is different, but if you really want to build strength and speed, you probably need to get yourself into the range of 150+ miles/week. And among those 150 miles, some have to be hard training rides and some have to be easier slower rides.

If you can't sustain that kind of mileage in your training, then man, Ragbrai will HURT.

BTW, you should be pretty happy with approaching 2000 miles in your first year - you probably had no idea that you could do that when you started. But it's amazing how much improvement comes in the first few years. For me:

2008: 0 miles
2009: 1500 miles
2010: 4500 miles
2011: 6700 miles so far.

Cycling shoes for toe clips have a cleat with a slot that hooks on the pedal. .
During my toe clip years, I had several pairs of Bata Bikers and also touring shoes from Performance, none of which had cleats like what the racers used.

NO doubt!!

I actually got a mph out of each foot so I'd say it's a 2mph difference!

I just read the report linked by Denver, and I read the report to say "However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency." :eek: I would think that mechanical efficiency = power to pedal=power to road :innocent:. Tim ps keeping your feet on the pedals IS more efficient, be it by clips, traps, straps, or duct tape

I just read the report linked by Denver, and I read the report to say "However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency." :eek: I would think that mechanical efficiency = power to pedal=power to road :innocent:. Tim ps keeping your feet on the pedals IS more efficient, be it by clips, traps, straps, or duct tape

I didn't understand it either. I think we have to read the entire study.

Your goal is attainable, but the solution is work, not equipment. You should definitely get cleats, but the key is that you need to up your miles. You just started riding seriously a few months ago, and if you put in the miles, you should be able to get up to 15 MPH average for a flat ride (Houston->NO must be like a pancake, no?). But you are going to have to up those miles. your counter says "1856 miles this year", which I think means in the last 6 months (You started out in May, right?). So that's about 300 miles/month. Everybody is different, but if you really want to build strength and speed, you probably need to get yourself into the range of 150+ miles/week. And among those 150 miles, some have to be hard training rides and some have to be easier slower rides.

If you can't sustain that kind of mileage in your training, then man, Ragbrai will HURT.

I agree, and I definitely am going to ramp up my training miles in 2012. 2000 miles in my first 8 months of cycling is something I think I can hang my hat on. I started riding in May and I think I have made a lot of progress over these first 8 months. I don't know if 600 miles a month is a realistic goal because of work schedule and so forth, but perhaps 100 miles a week is attainable.