Folding Bikes - Stagnation in the folding bike industry

Seems like there's not been much evolution in the last couple of years other than the emergence of Tern. Dahon is largely back where it was in 2007 having given up most of the Biologic bits and pieces. Brompton seem more interested in accessories than improving the core bike design which still has certain flaws. Prices keep shooting up each year.

I wonder what sort of market share folders will have to have before the big bike companies take more interest, and what will happen should that happen.
A couple of Giant's recent bikes look well thought-out and er, 'serious' in design terms rather than just being rebadged Dahons, though Giant have had their unique models for years, so I don't suppose there's evidence there of a big player moving in.

Brompton seem peculiarly positioned as their folding design and brand are one, yet the fold isn't protected by patents. Should a large company choose to move into the market they'd be starting with a clean page, able to correct all the small deficiencies that Brompton appear to be stuck with in order to keep up spare part compatibility. I've seen it happen in the software world; small companies develop innovative new products only to see those innovations, erm, bought out (if they're lucky) or stolen by big companies. In the bigger picture it seems their role is often simply to agitate the market. I wonder if in 10 years time it'll be the same for smaller folding bike companies.

I think in some respects Bromptons are poor quality bikes and it's to do with either the short-sightedness of the company or the restrictions of a business of that size and the value placed in spare parts availability. The price of an M3L on the Brompton website is now £790. . . ouch.

the factory is in UK, people who do the work
need to buy housing food and an occasional pint out of what they are paid.


Chasing lower wages is why Asia got the investment,
and now has the bulk of the bicycle production .

now standard model is find a contract manufacturer there,
rather than build your own company manufacturing base.
even for new 'companies'..

Brompton, makes conservative changes ..
One big change, the hinges went from a hand fillet braze and a forged part,
to a torch array jig , and cast part, machined for braze fill gap, (someone does that).

which is more efficient to produce, to keep up with world wide sales demand.

Software world wants lower labor rates too. to add to the income at the top.

Folding bikes present too small a part of the whole bike market for big bike players to move into it. Trek tried it and now they're not doing it anymore. No C'dale or Spec folders -- of the bigger companies, looks like only Giant is doing one. KHS has a couple, so do Breezer, but that's all that come to mind.

I think most bigger companies see it as something different than their core market, both in manufacturing and marketing. Since the demand is just not there compared to their standard style bikes, they won't delve into a specialty thing involving a huge marketing push to be successful.

Bike Friday Tikit is pretty innovative, their hyper-fold only takes slapping the back of the saddle
folding down the seat mast, to release the cable that allows the steering mast to fold down.
Quick ..
Rear portion comes alongside the main frame , rather than underneath, like Brompton,
or having the front portion fold back on the center ,

so Tikit Rolls on front wheel when folded , a good feature , It seems

... No C'dale or Spec folders -- of the bigger companies, looks like only Giant is doing one. KHS has a couple, so do Breezer, but that's all that come to mind. ...
Raleigh USA currently has their Folding I8. It has a Nexus 8-speed IHG and a standard-width fork. See: http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/hybrid/folding-i8-12/
AFAIK, despite their appearances, neither the handlepost hinge nor the main hinge are DLT.

-HANK RYAN-
Norman, Oklahoma USA

Seems like there's not been much evolution in the last couple of years other than the emergence of Tern.....I wonder if in 10 years time it'll be the same for smaller folding bike companies.

The folding bike in of itself is simply, a bicycle first and foremost. The only thing it does differently in a major sense is to fold and/or separate compared to any other bike type. The folding/separating bicycle market is a small one and will remain this way until the need for a compact go-anywhere machine that offers some sort of theft resistantancy built right into it gains more notice with potential buying customers. Bicycle usage is still a recreational type of "sport" in most places & has been for almost 100 years. Until the average joe and josie is most of the time forced from and weaned away from their car, it will remain so for the foreseeable future.

And this applies equally for any other sort of bicycle type and design.

I guess to some degree there is a similarity between folders and recumbents in this aspect. they are such a niche market that the big players are reluctant to go in full. Seems like they will occasionally test the waters.

One big difference is that folding bikes are much more like regular bikes, the design is more focused and narrow, (there is a great diversity in recumbent designs). This would seem to make the potential folding bike buyer, more similar to the "regular" bicycle buyer and therefore a more attractive market segment for larger bicycle companies.

The Raleigh i8 is a Dahon, based upon the frame and latches.

Folder Fanatic has captured the U.S. status of bikes and folders pretty accurately, IMO. More than casual bicycle use (bicycle Commuting, or an actual "car-less" lifestyle) takes a certain type of attitude and good public transportation. Since the auto, petroleum and road building industries are major "influencers" here in the USA, we have homes in the suburbs on lower cost land with freeways on which to drive our cars to work, shopping and play.

The Dutch made bicycle use a priority long ago. London has made it uncomfortably expensive to drive into the inner city and folders have come into vogue for the 1st and last mile. Portland, OR has an incredible number of bike commuters - and car-less or car light families and individuals (as well as a growing number of folder riders) supported by continually expanding light rail service that welcomes bikes (folders or not).

This is not possible in the majority of U.S. cities due to their car-centric development patterns, which lengthened the commuting distances and dictated the routes available.

IMO, owning cars (more accurately for most folks, making payments on cars - and Ins and licensing) is a big waste of money, and if we were young today (and not in our late 60's) we'd do things a lot differently.

The one thing that might make bicycle transportation more attractive to Americans is lower wages and less employment opportunities - and that appears to be here. So we will see.

Lou

Bike Friday Tikit is pretty innovative, their hyper-fold only takes slapping the back of the saddle
folding down the seat mast, to release the cable that allows the steering mast to fold down.
Quick ..
Rear portion comes alongside the main frame , rather than underneath, like Brompton,
or having the front portion fold back on the center ,

so Tikit Rolls on front wheel when folded , a good feature , It seems

I have say you said it spot one. Bike Friday is the leader in folding bike technology in the U.S. In Europe, it would have to be the Birdy or Moulton.

Brompton seem peculiarly positioned as their folding design and brand are one, yet the fold isn't protected by patents. Should a large company choose to move into the market they'd be starting with a clean page, able to correct all the small deficiencies that Brompton appear to be stuck with in order to keep up spare part compatibility.

A large company did move into the 16' inch folding bike market and tried to compete with Brompton. It's called Dahon.

The Curve was a great bike but was selling for $900.00 dollars and tax took it close to 1K. However, it didn't sell well and today are hard to find. The bike had better components than the Brompton but it didn't matter because people at that price range are also looking for Bling. The Brompton has Bling where the Curve with it's gray color does not.

By the way, you know who's making a wave in the folding bike market? Citizen. Now that Dahon's are getting expensive, I've seen more Citizens on the streets of New York city than ever before.

The Curve was a great bike but was selling for $900.00 dollars and tax took it close to 1K. However, it didn't sell well and today are hard to find. The bike had better components than the Brompton but it didn't matter because people at that price range are also looking for Bling. The Brompton has Bling where the Curve with it's gray color does not.

I dunno. The Curve also had an ungainly fold with exposed chains and chainrings, smaller and bumpier tires, a significantly shorter wheelbase, and no ability to realistically wheel about while folded. Keep in mind the Brompton's primary market: mixed-mode commuting.

By the way, you know who's making a wave in the folding bike market? Citizen. Now that Dahon's are getting expensive, I've seen more Citizens on the streets of New York city than ever before.

This development is reinforcing my belief in what people generally view bikes-cheap, cheap, cheap recreational toys or a sporting equipment sort of activity. At least in North America's large urban centers.

This (using bicycles as transportation) is not possible in the majority of U.S. cities due to their car-centric development patterns, which lengthened the commuting distances and dictated the routes available.
Lou
I agree with your analysis 100% except for the "not possible" part. It applies even where "car-centric development patterns" aren't that well developed, and in fact are very bicycle friendly, where you can get everywhere in town on a bike in 20 minutes, and where even the motorists are respectful of cyclists. It just isn't politically correct to use a bicycle, or feet for that matter, as transportation. It's a mental thing and will take a national lobotomy to change.

My wife and I volunteer at a soup kitchen where we feel less out of place as we park our bikes along all the patrons' bikes.

Dahon is largely back where it was in 2007 having given up most of the Biologic bits and pieces.

Actually, Dahon was at Eurobike 2011 and Interbike 2011 showning two different new designs with two-fold frames.

Bike Friday is the leader in folding bike technology in the U.S. In Europe, it would have to be the Birdy or Moulton.

But - in sixty years, Moulton has never built a folding bike!

Seems like there's not been much evolution in the last couple of years other than the emergence of Tern. Dahon is largely back where it was in 2007 having given up most of the Biologic bits and pieces. Brompton seem more interested in accessories than improving the core bike design which still has certain flaws. Prices keep shooting up each year.

I wonder what sort of market share folders will have to have before the big bike companies take more interest, and what will happen should that happen.
A couple of Giant's recent bikes look well thought-out and er, 'serious' in design terms rather than just being rebadged Dahons, though Giant have had their unique models for years, so I don't suppose there's evidence there of a big player moving in.

Brompton seem peculiarly positioned as their folding design and brand are one, yet the fold isn't protected by patents. Should a large company choose to move into the market they'd be starting with a clean page, able to correct all the small deficiencies that Brompton appear to be stuck with in order to keep up spare part compatibility. I've seen it happen in the software world; small companies develop innovative new products only to see those innovations, erm, bought out (if they're lucky) or stolen by big companies. In the bigger picture it seems their role is often simply to agitate the market. I wonder if in 10 years time it'll be the same for smaller folding bike companies.

Dahon with the Jifo 16 and Tern bikes are innovative bikes I think. Innovation is driven by competition. However, the folding market is limited in its market share, albeit a very very small market share, separated by tight niche products. You need to expand market share by
1, Stealing existing riders and convincing them to get a folder (very tricky job)
2, Convincing new riders to have a go with folders (much trickier job)

While we are mired in a tough economy, we will be facing an ever tougher prospect come the future years to come as consumer retrench and start paying down their debts. Which means, the progress in innovation is dictated by the willingness for consumers to open up more to their wallets.

By the way, you know who's making a wave in the folding bike market? Citizen. Now that Dahon's are getting expensive, I've seen more Citizens on the streets of New York city than ever before.

When I was shopping for a folding bike about a month ago I looked into Citizen's Gotham 2 bike and tried contacting Citizen to inquire about ordering one, but they never contacted me after numerous attempts of trying to get ahold of them, so I ended up getting a Dahon from a local bike shop after testing out a few Dahon models, a Brompton, and a Bike Friday Tikit.

Ahem, I forgot the Jifo completely, and of course the Curl ought to be out soonish. Yes. Many years back it was hoped that the Curl would be either a Brompton-beater or genuine competition at least. It's not looking that way as far as I can see as it's single speed only.

Dahon appear to have abandoned the Curve XL and SL leaving the 3 speed plus the single speed Jifo as the only 16" wheelers in their range. I guess it's fortunate that Giant have brought out what looks to be a decent alternative in the Subway.

I dunno. The Curve also had an ungainly fold with exposed chains and chainrings, smaller and bumpier tires, a significantly shorter wheelbase, and no ability to realistically wheel about while folded. Keep in mind the Brompton's primary market: mixed-mode commuting.

Still need more time to get used to the new bikes but this summer two of us riding, one on Brompton one on a Curve decided to swap bikes just to try both bikes. I remember that I found the Curves 16x2.0 Schwalbe tyre to be a much more cushy ride than the Brompton with the Marathons. When I ride different bikes on different days I do not think much about it. If I was commuting on cobblestones or similar five days a week I guess it would be more important.

Wheeling the Curve on one wheel is doable, but more elegant and also with the luggage still on it on the B.

A bit OT but 16 x 2 Big Apples are great, I'm not sure why but they seem to perform better than the 20" version. The steering response is a little better than a Brompton too which makes sense as looking at pics the Curve appears to have a tiny amount more trail.

The Raleigh i8 is a Dahon, based upon the frame and latches. ...
I initially made this same assumption based on the first pictures I saw. However, after examining the actual bike, I don't think there are any DLT (Dahon Licensed Technology) parts on the Raleigh Folding I8. See the attached pictures.

The I8 with its Nexus hub is attractively priced. (Erik's lists the 2011 model for $639.) The fork will take a standard hub. My main criticism of the 2011 model is its bolted stem. The 2012 has upgraded this to a stem similar to the Dahon Revolve stem. And the Dahon Revolve stem does seem to fit the 2011 model without any problems. ;)

-HANK RYAN-
Norman, Oklahoma USA

It just isn't politically correct to use a bicycle, or feet for that matter, as transportation. It's a mental thing and will take a national lobotomy to change.

My wife and I volunteer at a soup kitchen where we feel less out of place as we park our bikes along all the patrons' bikes.

In most areas of the country this "I can afford to drive a car" attitude is likely correct. In Ventura, CA (where we lived from 12/08 to 7/11) there are three classes of cyclists: The poor, the beach cruisers and the roadies. The first two go shopping on their bikes while the latter zips up and down the coast. The only road they all share is the Ventura/Ojai 'rails to trails' bike path. Everybody is in their car/truck/SUV or on their motorcycle.

In Portland, OR it's a very different story. It's a lifestyle for the rich, the poor and all the betweens. It's going to take some real financial discomfort to get it to spread. However, that may be here for many.

Most folks start off on 'cheap' bikes, so if folders are to gain popularity, there would have to be a need (like transit or lack of storage space ) and plenty of cheap folders available (Citizen?).

[Understand your feeling uncomfortable driving to the soup kitchen in your car. We are a bit embarrassed with what we have. Chalk it up to only one marriage and good life management skills (We don't have any pensions.) Most folks have not been that lucky.]

Lou

I remember that I found the Curves 16x2.0 Schwalbe tyre to be a much more cushy ride than the Brompton with the Marathons.

Ah, I forgot that some Curves have Big Apples on them. But I think we were talking about the SL, which does not.



Wheeling the Curve on one wheel is doable, but more elegant and also with the luggage still on it on the B.

As an owner of several Dahons, here I must forcefully disagree. The Dahon fold can be "rolled", sort of, only in one direction, and only very carefully without popping open the magnetic latch. It's not remotely maneuverable enough for rolling about in, say, grocery stores or commuter situations. In this respect, the Brompton smacks the Curve every which way.

But - in sixty years, Moulton has never built a folding bike!

Good one!

Alright so the Moulton can't be folded. You got me. ;-)

I still believe you cannot make a folding bike with the same quality as the Brompton for lets say $500.00 dollars. In fact, if you find a folding bike that's under $300.00 dollars, you're basically buying a cheap bike but not a replacement for the Brommie. Bike Friday, Birdy and Dahon all have 16 inch wheel folders costing about as much if not more than the Brompton. To make a "Brompton Killer", you'll have to cut the price by half while retaining the same quality. All the Brompton clones that entered the market from China proved this could not be done which is why they are not selling in the U.S.

People do not want to buy a cheap China Brompton with no support for parts.

But - in sixty years, Moulton has never built a folding bike!

More accurately, a separating bicycle. Which is even more compact than a similarly sized folding bike (the halves separate completely and that allows the parts to be stored separately.

In most areas of the country this "I can afford to drive a car" attitude is likely correct. In Ventura, CA (where we lived from 12/08 to 7/11) there are three classes of cyclists: The poor, the beach cruisers and the roadies. The first two go shopping on their bikes while the latter zips up and down the coast. The only road they all share is the Ventura/Ojai 'rails to trails' bike path. Everybody is in their car/truck/SUV or on their motorcycle.

In Portland, OR it's a very different story. It's a lifestyle for the rich, the poor and all the betweens. It's going to take some real financial discomfort to get it to spread. However, that may be here for many.

Most folks start off on 'cheap' bikes, so if folders are to gain popularity, there would have to be a need (like transit or lack of storage space ) and plenty of cheap folders available (Citizen?).

[Understand your feeling uncomfortable driving to the soup kitchen in your car. We are a bit embarrassed with what we have. Chalk it up to only one marriage and good life management skills (We don't have any pensions.) Most folks have not been that lucky.]

Lou

Actually, more people fell out of the cushy middle income brackets during the past few years than is commonly acknowledged and cannot afford most price ranges of many bike shop bicycles-not just folding/separating ones-that are not the department store variety. Dahon has drifted away from the affordable price range with their rapid price increases in even their former lower level models. Citizen might be hard to find as some here suggested. The used market is unpredictable in it's offering and prices. So what is a customer (especially the first time folding/separating bike user) is going to do?

A good example here is the Dahon Boardwalk S1 (my first folding bike I ever owned). It has increased by about 100-150 dollars since I bought it in late 2003 (the listed price on the Performance Bike Site is $299.99 as of December 24, 2011). But as an occasional bike for limited usage observed by an reviewer on the same Website:

".....I bought this folding bike for occasional use, to take inside Metro if I need to ride in the downtown area, or to pick up a rental car. It proved very useful for those purposes.......This is not the absolute best folding bike out there; I tried out more expensive models that were lighter, and folded to a much more convenient shape; but for occasional use this one does the job just fine. I should mention this model was sold at a substantially lesser price when I bought it a couple years ago....."-http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1107200_-1_1595009_20000_400325#ReviewHeader (http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1107200_-1_1595009_20000_400325#ReviewHeader)
Click on Customer Reviews tab.

(@ Dahon.Steve)
I think in some respects Bromptons are poor quality bikes and it's to do with either the short-sightedness of the company or the restrictions of a business of that size and the value placed in spare parts availability. The price of an M3L on the Brompton website is now £790. . . ouch.
Dahon have been able to address aspects of folding bike design that Brompton have left alone, in particular the integrated headset design that maximizes tube diameter and thickness in the area under the greatest stress. . . this strikes me as a core design problem. Tern appear to have gone a stage further with this. Brompton are left with a headset type that was never intended for the long stem designs of folding bikes and the result is a lot of flex (unless you're comfortable with the short-stem S-type). Even the cheaper / cheapo folders have mostly moved to Ahead systems. Curiously, AFAICS the lack of trail in the Brompton fork could very easily be addressed without altering the folded dimensions by adjusting the angle of the frame hinge ever-so-slightly. It's really a tiny alteration but would involve creating/maintaining more product lines. But I don't see why this wasn't done already when they changed wheelbase or earlier. It seems as though it's not going to happen unless there's a direct competitor to the Brompton.

Maybe Mezzo will pull something out the bag. . . with optional rear suspension and more luggage options I'd be interested in the bike. Though I guess that'd bring the bike a few steps closer to looking like a Brompton, and presumably the various companies are reassured that they're able to keep some separation/clarity of brand identity. At the moment picking between Brompton and Mezzo is something like picking between twitchy bouncey ride with good luggage/crap gearing and very stable bone-shaker ride with poor luggage/good gearing, a choice that seems not at all ideal.

What about Pacific Cycle's IF series of bikes.
They appear to fold quickly, can roll when folded, seemly unconventional as other top end folders.

I hope to see/ride one of these bike in the near future. Unfortunately, they also seem hard to find.

@Chagz / OP : I agree very much with what you've observed. Interesting thinking about what that means about the market type for that to be true. Tern so far seems to be nothing. Their quality differentiation from the parent will take 5 years to prove, if they can make it that long with no real innovation.

Jim... merry christmas first of course ....
I dont know, if you look, ride, own, enjoy a Tern you will most likely find out, that nobody wanted to re invent the wheel, just cause to be different, nobody wanted to invent something , just for the reason to "invent or die" BUT... a wholebunch of pretty good people looked at every corner, every, this and thought hard, how to make it better.... They have succeded in most parts, but there is always room to make it even better yet.
I think radical innovation usually doesnt work in the real life, 3dcad drawings turn me off. For me innovation is in the small details. to make the bike more usuefull and better for years to come....
just sayin

thor

Compare the folding bike market with the diamond frame market, and you see plenty innovation. All sorts of novel folding methods have entered the market recently: IF Mode, tikit, that Chinese crazy fold (Free Ride?), Dahon Curve, Dahon Curl, to name just a few off the top of my head.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4388250/2011-08-20_15-56-45_655.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4388250/2011-08-20_15-56-50_363.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4388250/2011-08-20_15-57-44_69.jpg

the factory is in UK, people who do the work
need to buy housing food and an occasional pint out of what they are paid.


Chasing lower wages is why Asia got the investment,
and now has the bulk of the bicycle production .

now standard model is find a contract manufacturer there,
rather than build your own company manufacturing base.
even for new 'companies'..

Brompton, makes conservative changes ..
One big change, the hinges went from a hand fillet braze and a forged part,
to a torch array jig , and cast part, machined for braze fill gap, (someone does that).

which is more efficient to produce, to keep up with world wide sales demand.

Software world wants lower labor rates too. to add to the income at the top.

How much exactly is the income at the top? Nowadays many companies are lucky to get 3% net profit in a good year. Labor is of course the biggest cost, but the next biggest expense is taxation. I run my own small company, and after expenses (business tax, consumption tax, income tax, residency tax, license fees, national health insurace, building insurance, etc.) it's shocking how little is left over. Trying to get together enough money to expand takes a lot of scrimping and sacrifice. The average America works the first 5 or 6 months of each year just to pay tax, in Europe it's even worse. Here in Japan the corporate tax rate is over 50%, and Japanese companies are fleeing the country like it's on fire.

Are CEOs overpaid? Probably, but on a percentage basis, the government gets a far bigger cut. I wish the government had to work as hard for their taxes as I do, then they might be more careful with how they were spent. I will be reincorporating in America next year, running my business remotely from Japan (where I love to live). With a national debt of around 230% of GDP, Japan is setting itself up for a big fall. For all the taxes levied here, they still manage to spend double what they gain in revenue. If I ran my own business that way they would put me in jail.

That's so true regarding Ventura! I live here now - and it's serious (ridiculously so) roadies, the poor and beach cruisers. There are a few of us starting to bike, tour and trying to commute but the roads are bad for commuters right now! Of course I know that is an excuse, but . . .

There is a guy in Ventura starting his own hand-built bikes (Not folders) - I think his blog is Ocean Air Cycles (not Open Air - like the bike shop).

I've seen two Bromptons in the last two months (I've been looking!) while around town.

Hey, here's a rare sight - four Fridays on the Promenade, Christmas week 2010.

Those are some good looking bikes!!!

Those are some good looking bikes!!!

Thanks. Front to back: Son-in-laws Pocket 8, wife's Crusoe, daughter' NWT and my very big, and very green, NWT.

Viewed that Ventura bike builder's website. Sure lots of familiar bike paths and scenery there!

Lou

Talking of innovation, I'm really surprised at the low takeup of Gates belt drive by folding manufacturers. Belt drive offers even more advantages to folding users than regular users, eg clean to carry, lift and store in an apartment, maintenance-free for occasional users. The single rear stay design such as Mu has no rear triangle to break open and is suited to folder design.
Bromptons are stuck with a chain due to their fold mechanism but for everything else, belt drives should rule.

Having thought about it some more I've realized that the thing that irks me most about the folding bicycle market is that there aren't competitors to Brompton that are using essentially the same folding design (bar mezzo, sort of). I don't know the extent to which that folding design belongs to Brompton, without patents the intellectual copyright stuff seems unclear. With all the fold-in-half designs around there's a push towards quality in the details and signs of steady progress now with Tern and Dahon going head to head. New bikes like the If Urban or whatever it's called, look very nicely conceived and cater well for a sector of the market. Wacky new designs keep appearing but they're novelty items really as the folds are crap. Essentially, in terms of compact folding bicycle design nothing comes close to the Brompton except the Mezzo which is really a variation on the basic theme. There's such potential to develop better engineered bikes around that basic design but as things are it's not going to happen. For all the talk of Bromptons being engineering marvels, in terms of the engineering aspects that effect ride quality the quality isn't really there. Competitors like the Dahon Curve sacrifice ride quality as the wheelbase has to be shortened due to the fold. The future lies in a fusion of the good aspects of a variety of brands of bike, but the brompton-style fold would be at the core. Having enjoyed riding a Dahon Curve I keep thinking there's great potential in 305 wheels and Big Apples, with a Brompton-style fold it'd result in an even smaller package and in some respects ride quality would be improved.
Innovation isn't needed, it all exists already, it's just a question of how well it can be done.

belt drives should rule.

Agreed. My Moutlon TSR has belt drive and it keeps things nice and clean during transportation. As you say I am surprised more fold in halfs don't use it.

With the Brompton (I have one too) the fold of course keeps the chain internal and thus provides some protection from getting oil and muck everwhere, when you transport it.

Regards

Jerry

Agreed. My Moutlon TSR has belt drive and it keeps things nice and clean during transportation. As you say I am surprised more fold in halfs don't use it.


Has something changed to where you can't cause premature failure so easily with the belt ? Exposure common in folding bikes doesnt seem like this is a good mixture of folding_use :: gates's_vulnerability.

Has something changed to where you can't cause premature failure so easily with the belt ? Exposure common in folding bikes doesnt seem like this is a good mixture of folding_use :: gates's_vulnerability.

I believe it's still recommended that you don't stand on the pedals, perhaps they don't like shock loading. The second part of your post I couldn't make head nor tail of, but I think belts on folders are the way forward, certainly for city bikes.

I believe it's still recommended that you don't stand on the pedals, perhaps they don't like shock loading. The second part of your post I

Those aren't the primary way of "accidentally" damaging the belt - torsion, not properly fitting, other factors will ruin belt. That seems like something bound to happen during the folding process or pedals touching the belt from a bike park, other stuff falling into the belt path.

source = gates belt usage:

"
The following actions will cause damage to your belt and may cause it to fail.
1. Crimp 2. Twisting 3. Back bending 4. Inverting 5. Zip Tie'ing 6. Crimp

FAQ, "Do I need to replace my belt if it comes off the pulley under power ? ... replacement is recommended .. "

Having thought about it some more I've realized that the thing that irks me most about the folding bicycle market is that there aren't competitors to Brompton that are using essentially the same folding design (bar mezzo, sort of). I don't know the extent to which that folding design belongs to Brompton, without patents the intellectual copyright stuff seems unclear. With all the fold-in-half designs around there's a push towards quality in the details and signs of steady progress now with Tern and Dahon going head to head. New bikes like the If Urban or whatever it's called, look very nicely conceived and cater well for a sector of the market. Wacky new designs keep appearing but they're novelty items really as the folds are crap. Essentially, in terms of compact folding bicycle design nothing comes close to the Brompton except the Mezzo which is really a variation on the basic theme. There's such potential to develop better engineered bikes around that basic design but as things are it's not going to happen. For all the talk of Bromptons being engineering marvels, in terms of the engineering aspects that effect ride quality the quality isn't really there. Competitors like the Dahon Curve sacrifice ride quality as the wheelbase has to be shortened due to the fold. The future lies in a fusion of the good aspects of a variety of brands of bike, but the brompton-style fold would be at the core. Having enjoyed riding a Dahon Curve I keep thinking there's great potential in 305 wheels and Big Apples, with a Brompton-style fold it'd result in an even smaller package and in some respects ride quality would be improved.
Innovation isn't needed, it all exists already, it's just a question of how well it can be done.

We keep hearing the same remark about how if someone only copied the Brompton's fold and add good parts. There are cheap China knockoffs on the market if you want to go that route. With no LBS for support or the Brompton company to suppy parts, you're out of luck should something go wrong.

Years ago, I asked Josh Hon the same question as to why he didn't copy the Brompton's design. He felt the Dahon Picccolo was every bit as good as the Brompton. Seriously. He actually felt the Dahon Presto Lite was waaaaaaay better than the Brompton. Those in the cutting edge who make folding bikes are very proud of their product and don't want to produce a 100% knockoff of a competitor.

That's really to reiterate what I've said, the Presto Lite was superior to the Brompton of the time in terms of components and weight, gearing, etc. so someone prioritising those aspects would prefer it. Brompton don't need to compete on those terms as there's no competitor to their fold, so the development of their product occurs at a snail's pace and there's no downwards pressure on prices.

Yup, Capitalism will not kill inflation, just push down Labor compensation.

More Shopping is not the cure. :notamused:

Yup, Capitalism will not kill inflation, just push down Labor compensation.

Ah, so British workers today are poorer than they were in Manchester in the days of Friedrich Engels? And Chinese workers today are worse off than in the days of Chairman Mao and his Red Guards? Thank you for clearing up my misconceptions ;)

I thought people like you and me could afford better bikes, cars, computers, etc. today under evil capitalism than we could 30 years ago, but I could have been wrong...

Years ago, I asked Josh Hon the same question as to why he didn't copy the Brompton's design. He felt the Dahon Picccolo was every bit as good as the Brompton. Seriously.

The work began on the Brompton and Dahon folding bikes about the same time, and they were introduced to the American cycling public in the same issue of Bicycling magazine (May, 1984). Yet according to numbers given by Andrew Ritchie, twenty-five years on Dahon was selling 40X the number of folding bikes, and Brompton only had significant market share in their tarriff-protected home market. Seriously, hard to call Josh out on this one.

being new to the forums and reading through a few replies on this topic has Kansi had much exposure on here?

http://www.kansi.co.uk/

dan


EDIT: well a quick search answered that question :) although having owned one of the bikes in question I'm still really looking forward to them being re-released.


dan

What sort of innovation is lacking, exactly?